Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-09

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08:00  Cummere Mayo  oz... you should try out this dev build of firestorm
  Tomkin Euler  what's your readc Cummere?
  Oz Linden  Hi everyone
  FERRET  hiya
  TriloByte Zanzibar  good morning
  Tomkin Euler  doesn't crash like the last one for me..
08:01  Twisted Laws  Hi
  Oz Linden  I'm hoping to get some time to do TPV surfing tomorrow, in fact
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  hiya tech ㋡
  Cummere Mayo  the ability to lose the sidebar, the tabs instead of accordians.... this has some nice features we should ask them for
    tomkin i can still crash it regularly, but they are getting there
08:02    media filter is sooo nice though
    hints to oz
  Wolfpup  hey oz
  Techwolf Lupindo  HI all
  Cummere Mayo  meeeeeeeeee deeeeeee ahhhhhhhh filllllllllllllll terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
08:03  Techwolf Lupindo  LOL
  Oz Linden  Let's do the item someone put on the agenda first (adding more now is fine, but add at the end)
    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2820?
  JIRA-helper  SVC-2820 Allow group IMs to be muted
  Jonathan  That was my item; it is semi-misfiled and should be considered a vwr (see final comments)
08:04  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  that would be nice...
  Jonathan  I expanded this new feature request to encompass muting all aspects of 1 group
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  mute the MM groups, but still get the notices
  Techwolf Lupindo  I orinally though when closing a group IM that it was sienced for 30 minutes. With the viewer getting more stable, that closing a group sience it forever is going to be somewhat a problem. I like to have a delay timer of some sort.
  Oz Linden  As you've heard, there is a big rewrite of group chat in progress
08:05  Jonathan  Is muting a group part of that effort?
  Oz Linden  As a part of that, the team doing it is now doing a broader look at what other related changes should be made.
    I'll point this one out to them (I know they have something very much like it on thier list)
08:06  Jonathan  I'd consider this work about 95%% done; there might be a minor issue with how muting voice works, plus a menu tweak
  Techwolf Lupindo  What is the best place to submitte feedback for group chat related stuff?
08:07  Jonathan  Even if it is not taken up it was a good programming exercise
  Cummere Mayo  gez was supposedly gonna have a usergroup for us
  Oz Linden  Gez is planning to open a new user group for chat-related issues soon
    There'll be a blog post or something I'm sure
  TriloByte Zanzibar  From what I can gather, they're running a little behind. The xmpp project viewer is showing up, but they haven't started with groups or active testing yet
  Oz Linden  I have not heard any dates on that yet
08:08  TriloByte Zanzibar  Oz, FJ had made the hard commitment to having it on the main grid by March 31
  Jonathan  The xmpp people ran into a little technical issue--they were using aditi but needed their own grid
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I expect that will slip by a couple weeks
08:09  Oz Linden  what can I tell you ...
  Jonathan  If you want better news about xmpp go to the Beta UG with Oskar
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yeah, I'm hoping to be able to make their meeting tomorrow
  Cummere Mayo  anyways one way or another we know these features are likely coming right oz?
08:10  Oz Linden  which, the chat stuff... yes, many group chat features are coming
    I think I'll avoid putting any dates after my name into the chat archive, though
  TriloByte Zanzibar  understandable :)
  FERRET  yerp nufin like watching a deadline fly by
  Techwolf Lupindo   :-)
  Cummere Mayo  if they dont get the xmpp stuff ready to go, it sounds like we have a patch alnost ready though :)
  Jonathan  The xmpp viewer code is public for anyone who is interested
08:11  Oz Linden  next topic... media filter
  Wolfpup  since we are on the subject of chat is anying one onlast nights build of Viewer Development?
08:12  Cummere Mayo  nope wolfpup....
  Twisted Laws  i am up to date with changes from last night...
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yes
  Cummere Mayo  with all the crap going on i switched to one with a media filter
  TriloByte Zanzibar  well, 223190
  Oz Linden  I have seen the contribution on this, but not yet had time to look closely at it or to raise the question of whether or not we can take it. It is, however, on my list.
  Wolfpup  those of you that are have you noticed the changes to the bottom bar?
  Twisted Laws  yes
  Cummere Mayo  oz, other departments already kinda committed us to taking it
08:13  TriloByte Zanzibar  yeah, I like it
  Oz Linden  send me mail privately Cummere with who that would have been
08:14    I personally don't object to it
  Joke Bubble  hi
  Techwolf Lupindo  Is there a master jira on it?
08:15  Oz Linden  the change to remove the 'hide url' checkboxes has been integrated and passed QA, so it will be in the next regular viewer release.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  is it removing both audio and media?
08:16  Oz Linden  it unmasks all parcel media urls, regardless of what type they are
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ok
08:17  Cummere Mayo  there is but tonya or jessica know it... I just know simone posted the orriginal patch and tonya tweaked it
    im looking for it now though
  Oz Linden  Tonya posted it somewhere (or said she would)... like I said, I've been tied up and have not looked for details
  Techwolf Lupindo  One exploit was closed. But I need to follow up on with LL.
08:19  Joke Bubble  mmm i have a question
  Oz Linden  on media urls, joke? if not, hold it please
  Joke Bubble  not about it sorry . ok im waiting .)
08:20  Oz Linden  next agenda item is #3 - Things to ask Firestorm for...
  Jonathan  add it to the agenda
  Oz Linden  kind of a broad topic
  TriloByte Zanzibar  agenda's here - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
  Techwolf Lupindo  Ah, I think it asking for what LL can get from firestorm for there viewer.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ill be submitting some translations im putting into firestrom to LL
08:21  Cummere Mayo  yes tech
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  i set up my bitbucket account last night, havent pushed changes to it yet though
  Oz Linden  Can we be more specific?
  Cummere Mayo  i really want to see the media filter, end of accordians, ability kill the sidebar, and the chat bar on the floater
08:22    aside from the media filter those all fix long running complaints with v2
  Oz Linden  we talked about chat on the floater enough last week... I did finally get around to creating a jira issue on that this morning
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I think the optional ability to turn off the sidebar (just using bottom buttons) would make a lot of people happy
  Oz Linden  the sidebar too has been beaten almost to death, but I do like some of what FS has done there, and plan to bring that up
08:23  Wolfpup  Oz there are several Jiars concerning putting the chat history panel in the conversatins floater
  Cummere Mayo  they did that too
  Oz Linden  yes, but I don't want to discuss chat floaters today - at all
  Techwolf Lupindo  Oz, I think we need to beat it to death. ;-)
  Cummere Mayo  its kinda nice
    one last thing
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I agree Oz. Btw, here's a jira on making sidebar an option - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18471
  JIRA-helper  VWR-18471 Optional sidebar
08:24  Wolfpup  yes the side bar is nice but could use some more and better featurs
  Cummere Mayo  the radar
  Oz Linden  Thank you Trilobyte
    have not looked a the radar
  Techwolf Lupindo  Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha in there now.
    Avatar List is bing worked on for firestorm. There is some alpha code in there now.
08:25  Cummere Mayo  meh ill have to go through slu forum posts (all nearly 11500) for the jira number for the filter ... im not finding it
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  its basic right now, just displays more info on people listed in the nerby tab of the people sidebar
  Wolfpup  it would be nice if the nearby map was taler
  Cummere Mayo  its simlar to our nearby chat pre mini-map, but with age how long weve seen them and range
  TriloByte Zanzibar  Or resizable, Wolf. I'd like taller too, but I saw a couple posts on the community site from ppl with small screen laptops who think it's too big
08:26  Cummere Mayo  personally i think we could get by with just the range
  Twisted Laws  my radar that comes from is using layout-stack and layout-panels, thus its resizable Wolfpup
  TriloByte Zanzibar  Lee has range in the latest builds of Kirstens too I think
  Oz Linden  what use is having range?
  Wolfpup  do you have to edit the xml for this?
  Cummere Mayo  oz I cannot believe your asking that
    *sighs*
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  to know how far someone is (easier to see if they are in chat range, etc)
  Jonathan  I use range all the time
08:27  Oz Linden  I just don't know... teach me
  Wolfpup  range sows you how far away the are from you
  Twisted Laws  i change the range very often in here... depends on what a person is doing.
  Cummere Mayo  determinining placement of stuff, if people are in chat or shout range
  TriloByte Zanzibar  Great when socializing (clubs/dances) or when tending to a busy store full of customers
  Twisted Laws  riding trains, you want a shorter draw distance, in a sandbox you want longer draw distance
  Jonathan  Let's say I have arrived in the wrong place -- I can see how far away the group I am trying to find is and in what direction
  Cummere Mayo  that too
  FERRET  is handy to know if your walking towards or away from someone for starters
08:28  Oz Linden  doesn't highlighting them on the minimap (which we already have) effectively do most of that?
  FERRET  knowlege is ability oz i woulda thought u knew that :P
  Cummere Mayo  if theres lots of avatars, minimap, even the one in the nearby pannel get overloaded
    no oz
  Tomkin Euler  gives feedback on which zoom range you're on.. far, or medium for instance..
  Cummere Mayo  some but not near enough
  Oz Linden  yes, Ferret, but cluttering the display also confuses new users
  Jonathan  The minimap might be at a closer scale...and we do not all have a mouse wheel to adjust it
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  oh cant build here, dang
08:29  Cummere Mayo  it really doesnt clutter it to add range
  TriloByte Zanzibar  that's worked fairly well, though depending on zoom it's tough to know how far away the dot is
  Cummere Mayo  and minimap just doesnt give a numeric value. and its hard to tell if someone is 85 meters away or 105 meters away
08:30  FERRET  oh idea...instead of disposing of the sidebar totally why not shrink it to a block next to the talk button or something
  Tomkin Euler  other visual cue to zoom range? different color tone on background?
  Jonathan  You could have range rings on the mini-map
    (optional)
  TriloByte Zanzibar  look at me, getting better at searching the jira.. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18078
  JIRA-helper  VWR-18078 Add distance information to nearby avatar list
  Oz Linden  I was just going to ask that Jonathan...
  Techwolf Lupindo  A range bar/sliders can give a clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/aniuperror.png thats what the nearby tab looks like currently
08:31    agg
  Techwolf Lupindo  A range bar/sliders can give a visule clue as to zoom level. So one can easly tell the differnce if that dot is close by or very far away.
  Oz Linden  would chat and shout range rings on the map be useful?
  TheBlack Box  the whole tab could have *fill in anything that radar-HUDs have*
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/tank_master/Second%%20Life/nearby.png
  Cummere Mayo  yes but not as useful as adding a range colum
  Jonathan  I think you'd want something additional between shout and chat range -- use of colors would help here
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  there
08:32  Techwolf Lupindo  Oz, good idea. That can server both visulau clue to zoom and convey information about chat range.
  Oz Linden  numbers don't help new users ... they don't know what they mean, really
  Joke Bubble  but they will learn
  Cummere Mayo  yould be surprised
08:33  Joke Bubble  second life is already so strange for newbies
     :)
  FERRET  which is why we scale closest to the top of the list :)
  Twisted Laws  would be nice imho to use highlighting in avatar_list to indicate chat range...
  Cummere Mayo  its not common but i do get asked how can you tell how far away someone is by new people
  Twisted Laws  subdued if out of chat range, bright if in chat range
  Wolfpup  if you had them colored and a key char at the bottom it wout be easy that way
  TriloByte Zanzibar  "how far away is he?" "he's blue" seems like an odd answer
08:34  Wolfpup  twisted it would need three levels
  Techwolf Lupindo  Twisted, it allready does that in Phoenix, the distance number go from black to grey for chat range.
  Oz Linden  using color has accessibility issues too
  Twisted Laws  i have a patch that can show range on hover in avatar_lists...
    that way there is no increased lag
  TriloByte Zanzibar  showing on hover would be great
  Oz Linden  do existing radars account for the vertical distance too?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  +1 for that, Twisted
  Wolfpup  then mabey a seperation marker
  Techwolf Lupindo  Oz, yes.
  FERRET  yeh but their way off
08:35  Cummere Mayo  yes
  Techwolf Lupindo  But there is the 1024 bug.
  Jonathan  Oz, they show altitude unless you are over a certain height, then there can be issues
  Oz Linden  what good is a number that's not correct?
  FERRET  it works if your up high measing down tho
  TriloByte Zanzibar  the one in kirstensviewer does, but I think it becomes ineffective beyond a fairly short range
  FERRET  measuring even
  Cummere Mayo  they are messed up if you go above 1024 meters but thats a issue with the server thats being fixed
  Techwolf Lupindo  Phoenix uses a bridge LSL scipt to get the correct nuimbers.
08:36  TheBlack Box  while we are speaking about radar .... the UUID-addressable SL-map-textures .... can we count on its ongoing existance
     ?
  Twisted Laws  btw... STORM-954 .. the wrong code got put in viewer-development (was the first patch, not the second)
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-954

STORM-954 SL-viewer 2.0 No nearby people when over approximately 1000 meters

  Oz Linden  let's put that on the end of the Agenda, please BlackBox
  TheBlack Box  kk
08:37  Oz Linden  Twisted - please reopen the issue and put in a correct hg repo pointer to fix it
  Twisted Laws  https://codereview.secondlife.com/r/132/
  Oz Linden  I'll make a point to look at radar in TPVs before our next meeting, and we can discuss that again
08:38  Cummere Mayo  cool ty oz
  Oz Linden  #4 Windlight status
    which status are we talking about?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yeah, Q mentioned some code was coming in last week
  Jonathan  Oz, these build in radars save server load as they use data already sent to the viewer
  Oz Linden  (people should put their names on agenda items, I think)
  TriloByte Zanzibar  the ability to set estate/parcel level windlight
  Cummere Mayo  chuckles and smacks whoever split up her three topics lol
  FERRET  shader code hopefully
08:39  TriloByte Zanzibar  (Sorry Oz, that was me)
  Oz Linden  Ah... Estate settings
    There is some code that's partly working in an internal repo
    I hope to get someone on finishing it up soon, but no dates
08:40    currently, it reads settings from the server correctly, but changing them is not finished
08:41  TriloByte Zanzibar  k, thanks. that one has been the most asked-about item in the rp communities that I hear from
  Oz Linden  yes, I want that one too... wait 'til you see Hippotropolis once I can play with those :-)
08:42  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  lol
  TriloByte Zanzibar  hehe
  Oz Linden  #5 Plans for Snowstorm....
  Cummere Mayo  if you play with hippo can i play with denby? lol
  Oz Linden  Snowstorm still exists ...
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  its only region level though, right? not parcle level?
08:43  Techwolf Lupindo  There is windlight support in TPV, just need to add some code to the parcel discription. But hopefully LL windlight will be better. :-)
  Oz Linden  that's right, it's Region level (even though it is called Estate level)
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ok
08:44  Twisted Laws  who is taking Q's place?
08:45  Joke Bubble  may i ask who is q ? o.o
  Oz Linden  For now, I'm running Snowstorm on my own
08:46  FERRET  actual snowstorm or V2?
  Cummere Mayo  q was a linden at LL for a long time, for a while he was in charge of snowstorm. he just recently left LL
  Oz Linden  I'm talking to my boss about how to evolve things... still not fully resolved, but so far I'm likeing how it's going
  TriloByte Zanzibar  that's good to hear
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  good ㋡
08:47  Techwolf Lupindo  Good. I wish yoiu good luck on that fronter Oz.
  Oz Linden  I'll share the outcomes when they are really finished
  Techwolf Lupindo   :-)
  Tomkin Euler  Is there an internal, non-open viewer development, in addition to snowstorm development? <pardon my ignorance..>
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yes, Tomkin, there are a few teams involved in viewer development
08:48  Tomkin Euler  o.. thanks..
  Oz Linden  The public viewer-development repo is the main integration repo for all viewer work, Tomkin
  Cummere Mayo  any hope that we will get some new lindens on the team full time? we're still half what we started with effectively
  Oz Linden  there are private forks for new work we're not ready to talk about yet
    That is among the topics with my boss, Cummere
08:49  FERRET  bring out the mesh!
  Cummere Mayo  cool. if you need resi's to help make the case let us know
  Oz Linden  mesh is already public, just not yet integrated
    ok... next topic - Joke Bubble has waited patiently
    what was your question?
  Joke Bubble  i forgot.
  Techwolf Lupindo   :-)
  Oz Linden  oops
08:50  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  doh
  Liisa Runo  map texture UUID's
  Wolfpup  lestat there are issues with trying to bring in mesh right now for one thing there is no open source for the decpm stuf
  Joke Bubble  i think it was silly thing sorry :/
  TriloByte Zanzibar  TBB also had a question too, I believe
  TheBlack Box  map texture UUID's was mine :)
  Oz Linden  yes, about map images, I think?
08:51  Joke Bubble  nop i want ask about zoom range
     :/
  Wolfpup  i have a 'sculpture' that shows about useing map uuid's
  TheBlack Box  some while ago there was talk about map-textures no longer being available via UUID ... cause the Viewer didnt use them anymore i think for its map ... but A LOT of SL content uses them
    since then those textures remained available ... but without a final word about them
    i think
  Oz Linden  the canonical reference for mapping is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Map_API
08:52    If you have a question not covered there, I can try to get an answer
08:53  TheBlack Box  Map API is for usage in websites right ?
    i am talking about in-world content
    Radar-systems for example ... HUDs and other
  Oz Linden  the map api provides urls... urls can be used in-world too
08:55  TriloByte Zanzibar  Oz, would you know who (or what team) to reach out to about map UUID's?
  TheBlack Box  i will read into it more ... but the question remains ... for old content that still uses those UUIDs
  Oz Linden  If you'd like, write me an email describing the usage you're concerned about, and I'll get someone to provide clarification of what you can expect.
  Techwolf Lupindo  urls in world need MOAP support to display. UUID are displayed on object without MOAP support.
08:56  Oz Linden  Well, then viewers better implement MOAP
  Techwolf Lupindo  Oz, the media filter.
  TheBlack Box  moap is a freakin security nightmare
  Techwolf Lupindo  enough said on that.
  Oz Linden  not if the urls are coming from Linden servers.
  Liisa Runo  all user friendly navigating systems for boats and planes use region maps on prim surfaces. And giant pile of other content use those too, i really hope they will stay. MOAP is not alternative to this with all the problems it have
08:57  Wolfpup  Oz that object i just sent you shows how map uuid's are used
  Oz Linden  Please use email as well
  TheBlack Box  and the question remains for old content ... switching to moap maps would need updating on the content ...
  Techwolf Lupindo  Why require webkit broswer just to display a textrue in world? (me shuts up for now.)
08:58  Oz Linden  I understand that there is a question, but not enough yet to get an answer, so send me that email spelling it all out carefully. That's all I can do now.
08:59    Joke... you had a question about zoom?
  Joke Bubble  yes
  TheBlack Box  very specifically this UUID-question is a bit of a burden on many content-creators that would like to sell things using those UUID's .. and not many of them will appreciate a moap-based alternative really
  Joke Bubble  about zoom range
  Wolfpup  Oz if you rez that sculptuer i just sen you and look @ the script inside you will understand the usage of map image uuid's
  TheBlack Box  getting experienced SL-users to swithc to v2 viewer is still a lot of work to be done ;)
  Oz Linden  we're done w/ map images, folks
09:00    what's your question about zoom range?
  Joke Bubble  its very short
  Oz Linden  the zoom range, or the question ?
    hates pronouns
  Joke Bubble  zoom range:))
  Tomkin Euler  yes..
09:01    yearns for a mouse wheel..
  Wolfpup  Joke i think zoom range depends on how your draw distance is set
  Oz Linden  sorry... I don't understand the question
  FERRET  imprudence...look in settings
  Joke Bubble  its same at viewer 2 too :/
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  i think he want to know if its possible to make it so the rang you can toom out to is farther
09:02  Wolfpup  greater draw distance = greater zoom range
  Twisted Laws  Joke, you may need to open Advanced menu, and turn on Disable Camera Constraints
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  a lot of TPVs have done this
  Twisted Laws  and turn off Limit Select Distance
09:03  Joke Bubble  thanks :)
  Oz Linden  ok... our time is up today... thanks for coming everyone
  Cummere Mayo  ty oz for hosing
    so when is acceptable to start bringing pitchforks again?
09:04  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  thx Oz
  Cummere Mayo  .me giggles
    *hosting
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  appriciate the updates