Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-27
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08:03 | Oz Linden | Hi everyone... sorry I'm late |
Wolfpup | hey Oz | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | good morning | |
Oz Linden | https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group | |
Marianne McCann | Hiya | |
08:04 | Oz Linden | let's start with the New Issues (some of which we may have touched on before, but....) |
08:05 | VWR-25321 | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25321
VWR-25321 Make user aware of the "CTRL + Up/Down Arrow" feature (which scrolls back message history) | |
08:06 | TriloByte Zanzibar | not a bad idea, maybe as a tooltip or something? |
Oz Linden | adding something to the existing chat entry bar tooltip would seem to be sufficient for this? | |
Jonathan | Yes | |
08:07 | Wolfpup | i wonder if the whipser is still active as well |
Oz Linden | we should probably add that same tooltip to the entry bar for p2p and group chat floaters | |
Jonathan | The message might also mention using ctrl r and l to move around in the line | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | especially for group chat, that's where it's needed most IMO | |
Oz Linden | I think whisper and shout still work, but forget how to whisper | |
08:08 | Wolfpup | used to be shft+enter |
Oz Linden | doesn't need to be control; just left and right work | |
shouts: this is a whisper | ||
nope | ||
Wolfpup | that was CTRL+enter | |
08:09 | Marianne McCann | Only wayOnly way I know of activating shout is to actually type out "/whisper" and my text |
(on V2) | ||
Wolfpup | whispers: hello | |
Oz Linden | whispers: is this a whisper | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | don't forget actions | |
Oz Linden | the shift-enter didn't work | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | tries not to forget | |
Marianne McCann | (Kinda a clunky method, but it works) | |
Oz Linden | raises his hand | |
/lh | ||
08:10 | Wolfpup | shift+enter works in the old code base |
Oz Linden | evidently that didn't make it (or this keyboard isn't compatible somehow) | |
Blondin | shouts: test | |
:) | ||
Wolfpup | shift+enter dose not wqork for me either Oz | |
08:11 | TriloByte Zanzibar | that might all be getting a bit too wordy for a tooltip, maybe a help menu item that lets you bring up a list of local chat, p2p, and group chat shortcuts/tips? |
Marianne McCann | Likewise. No go for shift enter on Mac | |
Oz Linden | I'd be fine with adding to the tooltip for the up/down.... this seems like your kind of thing, Jonathan... want it? | |
Marianne McCann | shouts: control enter | |
shouts: command enter | ||
08:12 | Oz Linden | there's a ? icon on the nearby chat floater |
that should open a help page, but at the moment I'm running a project viewer on which it is not working | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | yeah, true, right now page not found for local chat | |
Oz Linden | anyone running a released viewer? | |
Marianne McCann | Yes... | |
08:13 | It tells you about the Nearby Chat floater, and how to get a more compact chat display | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | no ? on p2p | |
or on group chat | ||
Oz Linden | the p2p and group floaters should probably also get the help | |
08:14 | Jenova Spires | I'm using Second Life 2.6.8 (230359) May 19 2011 16:28:57 (Second Life Release) |
Oz Linden | The way the help system works is that the help links go to pages that are generated from wiki text; it's quite a clever design in most ways | |
Jonathan | Sorry Oz, I was afk, I will take that on | |
08:15 | Oz Linden | it does have one minor flaw that we need to fix, which is that for it to work for any given viewer there's a link that has be manually created as part of releasing the viewer |
which is why they don't work in development builds | ||
08:16 | it allows different viewer versions to serve different help, but we should (and eventually will) fix it so that if the version is unknown you just get some default | |
08:17 | TriloByte Zanzibar | it'd be brilliant if there were infinite resources to document everything :) |
oobscure | no meeting? | |
08:18 | nevermind | |
Marianne McCann | Hm? | |
Oz Linden | Thank you Jonathan.... next issue: VWR-25363 | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25363
VWR-25363 Expose "Duplicate Object" feature in Viewer 2 (regression from 1.x) | |
08:19 | Wolfpup | Oz yesterday I updated > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds |
TriloByte Zanzibar | I always just shift-clicked/dragged, who knew there was another way | |
Oz Linden | Seems like adding a Duplicate entry to the Build menu | |
yes, shift-drag works | ||
08:20 | but the menu item might not hurt either | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | totally | |
oobscure | yup | |
ctrl D | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | especially if it lists the shortcut on the right side as reference | |
Marianne McCann | Ya. Haven't sued duplicate in ages, but I see no trouble with it bein in there | |
used* | ||
08:21 | Oz Linden | there is one thing I found about shift-drag that I think is non-intuitive, but I suspect it's too late to change... the original is the one you move: the copy is the one that stays behind |
oobscure | it's about "discoverability". | |
Wolfpup | unless im duplacting a whole build i normaly copy a prim useing th copy function in the tools floater | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | yeah, that drives me crazy Oz | |
Oz Linden | the question I have is: where does the duplicate appear? | |
Jonathan | What you shift-drag? The duplicate is left behind where the original was | |
Marianne McCann | Ya, it's always been that way (the copy being the one you move) | |
Wolfpup | it should actualy be the other way around | |
08:22 | Jonathan | I don't think that's a viewer change |
Marianne McCann | er, original | |
Wolfpup | i think you should actualy be 'pulling' the copy out of the orginal | |
Thickbrick Sleaford | I'm guessing it was done that way because it can take a while for the sim to rez a new object, and for the viewer to know about it, so you'd end up dragging a non-existant object otherwise. | |
08:23 | Oz Linden | I think leaving the original is more intuitive, but it may be that changing it would be more confusing than not... experienced builders expect it the way it is now |
Jonathan | wolfpup, you are operating on the original (moving it) and also leaving a copy behind, to that logic does make some sense, it is just not intuitive | |
Wolfpup | true Jonathan | |
08:24 | oobscure | btw, VWR-25363 is not about shift-drag |
TriloByte Zanzibar | I agree it's counter-intuitive, but thick & jonathan have a point. plus I think it's too late to change | |
08:25 | Oz Linden | anyway....the question is where the menu entry should go |
oobscure | for those interested about Discoverability: "All operations can be discovered by systematic exploration of menus" http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/gestural_interfaces_a_step_backwards_in_usability_6.html | |
Build menu | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | build -> object submenu | |
since you're duplicating the object | ||
08:26 | Oz Linden | I think that makes sense |
TriloByte Zanzibar | I'll also suggest that duplicate should be added to the context menu when selecting an object | |
perhaps under 'Take Copy' | ||
08:27 | Oz Linden | the context menu is already pretty long |
oobscure | not sure about that, personally. i'd keep that menu as short as possible | |
Oz Linden | and that applies whether you're building or not... not really the same thing | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | good point, and 'power users' would likely already be aware of the shortcut | |
I take it back :) | ||
08:28 | Oz Linden | the fact that we have the existing keyboard shortcut means that there is already a (possibly hidden) menu item somewhere that does the correct action |
that's how keyboard shortcuts are defined | ||
08:29 | so implementing this should just be finding that entry and duplicating it as a visible one in the Build menu, then fixing it so that it is disabled when no object is selected | |
Thickbrick Sleaford | Richard commented on that jira: "duplicate is in the hidden edit menu" | |
08:30 | Oz Linden | ok, well I'm happy to have this done... and it's already marked as an open development candidate |
Thickbrick Sleaford | (in menu_edit.xml) | |
oobscure | cool | |
sorry - I arrived late, there was a hug rainstorm here. can someone paste me in IM what has been said about ctrl+up/down arrows (if you had previously discussed that) ? | ||
08:31 | Oz Linden | we're going to add them to the tooltips |
oobscure | sounds cool | |
Oz Linden | svc-2825 | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825
SVC-2825 New Feature -> Dialog -> Group Information -> Ban List | |
08:32 | Oz Linden | Not really a viewer issue |
Jonathan | I like this idea, but the server people would have to implement their end first | |
Oz Linden | I don't think that there are going to be any big changes around group management in the very near future | |
08:33 | the server devs are pretty busy with other things that have bigger effects on more people | |
08:34 | I'm going to take this off our watch list for now.... I do know that at some point the whole 'groups' idea will get a deep re-think, and this can certainly be added to that list | |
vwr-23783 | ||
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23783
VWR-23783 System Integration Settings | |
08:35 | Oz Linden | there are a few sub-issues here |
08:36 | Wolfpup | that looks like some thing for the UI team to look at |
Oz Linden | I don't actually think that the umbrella issue serves any useful purpose | |
Wolfpup | and i know they have a few things planed | |
08:37 | Oz Linden | the UI folks are indeed very busy :-) |
Jonathan | I just read about growl the other day (VWR-23786) and that seems like it would be a massive project to implement | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23786
VWR-23786 Growl support for Mac OS X | |
08:38 | Wolfpup | i know wolf had me send him a snapshot of how i have done the tabs in the side panel of my local builds |
Oz Linden | I'm going to promote each sub-issue here to it's own issue, and get rid of the umbrella. The small ones are not connected in any implementation way. | |
08:39 | Jonathan | seems like VWR-23784 would be easy to renable |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23784
VWR-23784 [Viewer 2.0] Re-enable option for system colour-picker | |
Oz Linden | any of them might be easy | |
Jonathan | We can't tell if it was removed to declutter or because of some other issue | |
Marianne McCann | Only way to enable it now is in the debug settings | |
08:40 | (I do enable it) | |
Oz Linden | I don't know either... we'd need to test carefully on all platforms | |
Wolfpup | useing the system color picker on windows 7 might be a little more dificult as it is different than on xp | |
Oz Linden | are you on a Mac, Marianne? | |
Marianne McCann | Yup. | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | ooh - how can I use the system color picker? | |
Marianne McCann | Mac system color picker >> SL color picker | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | yes exactly | |
Jonathan | If the color picker was going to come back what menu to put it in? | |
Thickbrick Sleaford | It probably has the same problem as the file picker - the app is frozen while it's open (which BTW Aleric fixed in Singularity...) | |
Marianne McCann | Debug Settings > UseSystemColorPicker (if I recall correctly) | |
08:41 | Wolfpup | Jonathan it would be in the preferences |
Oz Linden | could be, Thickbrick | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | useDefaultColorPicker | |
Jonathan | I see a debug setting UseDefaultColorPicker | |
Marianne McCann | Ya, that | |
Jonathan | <-just update the debug wiki page last week or so | |
08:42 | TriloByte Zanzibar | thanks for the tip! |
Oz Linden | let's move on ... VWR-25824 | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25824
VWR-25824 [Regression] Bulk uploads do not adhere to default permissions | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | and thanks for the update, jonathan, that's a great page | |
Jonathan | TriloByte, I figured it was time for an update once the early mesh merge went through | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | Yeah, bulk upload perms got broken with the big mesh merge, that's going to hurt a lot of content creators | |
Thickbrick Sleaford | (I just tested in a 1.x viewer, and it does freeze the whole app while it's open) | |
Oz Linden | still busted, I gather.... I don't know whether anyone thinks this is on their list. | |
08:43 | TriloByte Zanzibar | you don't get an error that says your permissions weren't applied, you only discover if you double-check every uload, or if you finish an item and transfer a copy and realize your item is useless |
08:44 | Marianne McCann | Ick! |
Wolfpup | that could be a server side bug | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | yes, a server-side bug that appears only in viewer versions that came after the mesh merge | |
08:45 | Oz Linden | I'll see if I can escalate that a bit.... certainly should be fixed before we activate mesh, I think |
TriloByte Zanzibar | still works properly in 2.6.8 and below | |
Oz Linden | shouldn't be too hard to find, then | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | I noted the specific build number in the jira, I think | |
08:46 | Wolfpup | it might be as simple as a data filed not being reconized |
Oz Linden | well, yes, but it was the mesh merge.... there were 2250 changesets in that merge | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | yeah, and everybody saying "don't worry, we'll fix it after" as they steamrolled it into viewer dev | |
:) | ||
Oz Linden | if that was the worst problem we'd introduced, things would be pretty good | |
08:47 | however, it should get looked at asap... I'll see what I can do | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | well there's that monstrous crash for mac users with ati graphics | |
Oz Linden | yes... exactly, but I believe that a fix for that is on the way... | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | fortunately there's a fix for that one, just needs to be pulled into viewer-dev before another beta/release gets out | |
08:48 | Wolfpup | on the subject of mesh impoerted to viewerdevelopment their needs to be a discussion about getting the stub into a functional OS version of llconvexdecomp |
Oz Linden | sh-1618 | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | yeah, the fix for SH-1618 has been tested and works, just needs to be brought over | |
Jonathan | [PUBLIC_JIRA_USERS] Lighting and shadows crash ATI macs | |
08:49 | Oz Linden | that is being tested now along with some other high impact issues and will be merged as soon as the testing is done |
08:50 | So... let's see about past things... | |
Windlight is making (slow) progress.... | ||
I'm running our review build now (and it's pretty gloomy here) | ||
08:51 | TriloByte Zanzibar | problems with the build? |
Oz Linden | media filter I'm going to work on today (try to unblock by fixing the unit test problem) | |
no, the windlight build is fine | ||
Jonathan | I think Oz means the scene is a dark one | |
08:52 | TriloByte Zanzibar | ah ok :) |
Oz Linden | no, the windlight build is fineright | |
we can display region settings now, but the new settings editting dialogs are not working yet, so there's no way to change them | ||
08:53 | I don't think thatere are any changes on any of the other items on our Ongoing list.... | |
08:54 | Jonathan | oz, vwr-24005 is a new one |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24005
VWR-24005 Accidentally logged out when trying to use media or volume controls | |
Jonathan | I was hoping that might be taken before/at the same time as the draw distance slider change | |
Oz Linden | oh yeah... skipped that... reading.... | |
Jonathan | (or else marked as won't finish) | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | a draw-distance slider, you say? | |
08:55 | Jonathan | A few tpv changes are going to be brought in |
(not the radar though) | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | I've been manually adding a slider to my viewer for a year now | |
Oz Linden | I'm proposing that we add a draw-distance slider just like the global volume control (and right next to it) | |
08:56 | Marianne McCann | That would be lovely |
Oz Linden | Want to try contributing that TriloByte? | |
Jonathan | 1) what do you think of vwr-24005 and 2) the draw distance slider would operate vertically to save UI space? | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | excellent idea, I think having that a bit easier to reach will also help reduce the # of crashes | |
08:57 | Oz Linden | as for the window close problem... Mac users could have the same problem with the Me menu |
TriloByte Zanzibar | sure, is there an issue to add it to, or want me to just shoot you the xml file via email? | |
Oz Linden | I'll create an issue and send you a pointer | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | thanks | |
Jonathan | trilobyte, what direction does the slider operate in? The one I saw a long time ago was horizontal, and not all of us have a wide screen | |
08:58 | Oz Linden | I don't know if we can move things away from the corners to avoid window controls.... |
TriloByte Zanzibar | mine's horizontal | |
Marianne McCann | I'd love a draw distance slider.... | |
Oz Linden | I want vertical - exactly like the volume slider | |
with the gear button at the bottom to open the Graphics preference tab | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | if we're going to be fixing accidental clicky buttons, how about that "?" menu above the notifications list? I'm constantly screwing up and clicking that one | |
08:59 | Jonathan | Oz, here is how the vwr-24005 would look https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/46142/v2_status_bar.png |
TriloByte Zanzibar | I'd prefer vertical too | |
Thickbrick Sleaford | how about putting the slider on an accordion slide-out thingy? | |
Jonathan | it is just swapping 2 existing elements in that bar | |
Oz Linden | but we also have a request for something that clicks on the clock, JY | |
(show events happening now) | ||
TriloByte Zanzibar | I'll see if I can make sense of the xml, perhaps its functionality can be stapled to a copy of the volume slider code? | |
09:00 | Oz Linden | I looked at the code just this morning, and can send some pointers |
TriloByte Zanzibar | (as a workaround, enabling 'shownetstats' moves the volume icon/slider to the left a bit | |
Marianne McCann | (I but a small note to the click the clock JIRA last night, pointing to the events happening now in new search would be fab) | |
09:01 | TriloByte Zanzibar | that would be great, marianne! nice 'discovery' tool IMO |
Marianne McCann | Ya. I'm very keen on that one | |
Oz Linden | I'll bring up the accidental window close question with the UI folks | |
Jonathan | I think we could swap those 2 elements and make some adjustments in the blank padding so the clock is not too far to the right | |
09:02 | TriloByte Zanzibar | sounds excellent |
Oz Linden | I think the issue will be top bar space on smaller screens | |
Jonathan | I have one of those smaller screens | |
09:03 | Oz Linden | I need to prep for my scrum meeting folks... thank you all for coming |
Jonathan | thanks oz | |
Marianne McCann | have fun, thanks! | |
TriloByte Zanzibar | should be okay, there's some gap to play with up there (I pop between 1024x768 and 1280x720 a lot) |