User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2011-01-31

[07:55 AM]  Oz Linden: Gez wants to say a word or two about group chat.... listen up
[07:55 AM]  Gez Linden: Just wanted to mention that I am the product owner for the team working on migrating group chat to XMPP. We're pushing to have the project viewer out soon, and would like to work with you all to start making the switch in TPVs
[07:55 AM]  Gez Linden: I'm also going to be putting together a user group to help me better define/refine the requirements, and make sure we are supporting current use cases around group chat functionality.
[07:55 AM]  Gez Linden: If you have recommendations for chat moderators or other people I should talk to, please let me know (yourself included).
[07:55 AM]  Gez Linden: We're starting with functional parity as the goal (or as close as we can get), but I'd also like to discuss more about the places we can go with chat as well.
[07:56 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: when do you think TPVs will be able to start importing the new chat?
[07:56 AM]  Jonathan Yap: I tried to compile the xmpp based viewer this weekend and it failed, some module was not present.
[07:56 AM]  Cummere Mayo: is this meeting only for tvps? or?
[07:56 AM]  Gez Linden: jonathan, can you let me know which module failed?
[07:56 AM]  Jonathan Yap: yes, I will look it up
[07:56 AM]  Oz Linden: It's the xmpp client library
[07:57 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: yeah, i think the xmpp modual is still internal
[07:57 AM]  Oz Linden: they have not published an external prebuild for it yet
[07:57 AM]  Gez Linden: and lord noob, as jonathan mentions, the code is out there now. I think we'd like to start in the next couple of weeks with our test on aditi
[07:57 AM]  Gez Linden: alright, I'll ping the team about it today
[07:57 AM]  Cummere Mayo wants to see a working userban feature in group chats that doesnt require the user to have ever been in the group
[07:58 AM]  Gez Linden: per the meeting being only for tpvs, didn't mean to imply that.
[07:58 AM]  Jonathan Yap: oops, I deleted that code tree as it failed to compile, so you will have to rely upon the previous comments about what is missing
[07:58 AM]  Gez Linden: but we need everyone's help to get xmpp adoption to be smooth and complete
[07:59 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: we havent started on it because we have yet to be able to compile it
[07:59 AM]  Gez Linden: otherwise, the move from legacy to xmpp will be challenging ;)
[07:59 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: Gez, any guess as to a timeframe?
[07:59 AM]  Gez Linden: totally understand LN.
[07:59 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: :)
[07:59 AM]  Twisted Laws: that going to stop all the v1 based viewers?
[07:59 AM]  Oz Linden: no
[07:59 AM]  Gez Linden: tonya, our sprint this week is based on getting the project viewer complete. We'll push the code as soon as we can.
[08:00 AM]  Oz Linden: For some amount of time, the legacy group chat system will be bridged to the new one
[08:00 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: All right, but I mean in terms of having it availalbe on the main grid.
[08:00 AM]  Anny Helsinki is Offline
[08:00 AM]  Latif Khalifa: hello
[08:00 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: Put another way, when do we need to have it done by so people can take advantage of it?
[08:00 AM]  Jonathan Yap: Gez, would someone from your team post a message to the osdev mailing list when it is ready?
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: definitely jonathan
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: and tonya, we're still working on the transition plan.
[08:01 AM]  Cummere Mayo: Gez im assuming there is going to be heavy testing and feedback and at least some agreement from community and tvp devs that the system works good enough before this thing goes live? (pppllleeease?)
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: lightly speaking: we're going to start with this on aditi
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: we have a cluster up right now
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: we're going to be working with you all and tpvs to test it heavily
[08:01 AM]  Oz Linden: Some people here have already connected to it, Gez :-)
[08:01 AM]  Gez Linden: and I need some heavy chat users to tell me what I'm missing
[08:01 AM]  Latif Khalifa: Gez, which part of the work have you been involved in doing?
[08:01 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: The problems with the current group chat only show up when there are heavy loads...
[08:02 AM]  Oz Linden: That's going to be one of the testing challenges for this....
[08:02 AM]  Gez Linden: latif, it was a team that reported to me at first. I've recently stepped in as the product owner.
[08:02 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: Testing on aditi , while valuable and necessary, may not produce the kind of conditions that give current group chat fits.
[08:02 AM]  Gez Linden: tonya, we're working on a bot to help test.
[08:02 AM]  Gez Linden: after we finish on aditi
[08:02 AM]  Gez Linden: I'd like a cluster on agni
[08:02 AM]  Twisted Laws: just put AWGroupies on it by themselved, they'll overload it
[08:02 AM]  Cummere Mayo: Gez if you can get with me later i have some suggestions on who to talk to
[08:03 AM]  Gez Linden: great cummere :)
[08:03 AM]  Cummere Mayo: people that run large active groups
[08:03 AM]  Gez Linden: so over the next couple of weeks, I intend to do the following
[08:03 AM]  WolfPup Lowenhar rembers finding some one in AWG the has a spam bot system that might help with loading the chat sytem for groups
[08:03 AM]  Gez Linden: 1. get the team to get the project viewer out to you
[08:03 AM]  Latif Khalifa: Gez, I still see that there is no xmpp_server in the login respinse on Aditi. Would someone from your team have a couple of moments to make a wiki page with at least an overview how the new system is supposed to work.
[08:03 AM]  Gez Linden: 2. explain the transition strategy we have in mind
[08:03 AM]  Gez Linden: 3. get my team to work with you on the code/how the system works
[08:04 AM]  Gez Linden: 4. start up a user group to make sure we're testing this/supporting group chat needs appropriately
[08:04 AM]  WolfPup Lowenhar would have to look through his logs form when he was testion the current chat log code
[08:04 AM]  Gez Linden: latif, we can do that after we get the project viewer up.
[08:04 AM]  Gez Linden: I want to get the code out there for you all ASAP
[08:04 AM]  Cummere Mayo still hates the name user group. really thinks it should be discussion group or intrest group ... *mutters*
[08:05 AM]  Latif Khalifa: yeah FJ said something about the project viewer by the end of January
[08:05 AM]  Thickbrick Sleaford looks at his calendar.
[08:05 AM]  Latif Khalifa: I'm interested in implementing this new chat protocol for non-Linden derived viewers, so any documentation would be extremely helpful
[08:05 AM]  Oz Linden: January 35th maybe?
[08:05 AM]  Latif Khalifa: even a high lever overview how is it supposed to work
[08:05 AM]  Oz Linden: :-)
[08:05 AM]  Gez Linden: k
[08:06 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: lol oz
[08:06 AM]  Gez Linden appreciates oz extending january for him
[08:06 AM]  Latif Khalifa: Gez are you using XEP0045 for group chat?
[08:06 AM]  Latif Khalifa: ie. standard xmpp multi user chat specification
[08:07 AM]  Gez Linden: latif, I'm not 100% sure. I just recently jumped on the team. I will follow up with my devs, but it is my expectation that the answer is yes.
[08:07 AM]  Oz Linden: When we get a design overview together, we'll include some spec references
[08:07 AM]  Latif Khalifa: it would be really great if we had some forum where those devs could answer a question or two :)
[08:08 AM]  Cummere Mayo: hint gez mailing list! lol
[08:08 AM]  Gez Linden: osdev?
[08:08 AM]  Cummere Mayo: actually you might consider a group oriented one
[08:08 AM]  Oz Linden: osdev is fine
[08:08 AM]  Oz Linden: we don't need multiple lists
[08:08 AM]  Latif Khalifa: yeah agreed
[08:09 AM]  Gez Linden: I'll make sure the devs are there
[08:09 AM]  Gez Linden: afaik, they are
[08:09 AM]  Latif Khalifa: i will also test stuff like if i can chat with groups i'm not supposed to, etc. ;)
[08:09 AM]  Gez Linden: ossm
[08:09 AM]  Gez Linden: thanks for the soapbox ;)
[08:09 AM]  Oz Linden: Guys.... just so you know... Gez is one of the stronger supporters of Open Development in LL
[08:09 AM]  Latif Khalifa: cool
[08:09 AM]  Jonathan Yap: Thanks for popping in Gez
[08:09 AM]  Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[08:09 AM]  Gez Linden: surely
[08:10 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: :)
[08:10 AM]  Twisted Laws: :)
[08:10 AM]  Latif Khalifa: thank you for the info Gez
[08:10 AM]  Gez Linden: no prob. Was hoping to give you all something shiny to play with today
[08:10 AM]  Oz Linden: Thank you all for coming... see some of you at the scrum standup
[08:10 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: thx for your time oz, gez
[08:10 AM]  Latif Khalifa: hmm, still no xmpp_server in login response from aditi... i guess it's not ready there yet :)
[08:10 AM]  Nya Raymaker is Online
[08:11 AM]  Jonathan Yap: Gez, what regions are xmpp enabled on aditi?
[08:11 AM]  Gez Linden: jonathan, its not by region
[08:11 AM]  Gez Linden: its actually a service that lives outside of the sim altogether
[08:11 AM]  Latif Khalifa: yeah
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: we want to move the chat completely out of the sim
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: reduce traffic and all that jazz
[08:12 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: which is good
[08:12 AM]  Twisted Laws: yeah!
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: so, there's a cluster up there
[08:12 AM]  Latif Khalifa: Gez, I doubt it wold be benefital to remove local chat from sim...
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: sorry
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: to be specific
[08:12 AM]  Latif Khalifa: (scripts often need to be alerted).
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: at the moment, this is only group chat
[08:12 AM]  Latif Khalifa: IM/Group IM sure
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: I have some ideas for things that we can do with xmpp chat
[08:12 AM]  Jonathan Yap: so what happens if we sign in to agni using that test viewer? The chat still goes through test test cluster - does what grid we are on matter?
[08:12 AM]  Gez Linden: but this won't touch local for now
[08:13 AM]  Gez Linden: technically jonathan
[08:13 AM]  Gez Linden: afaik, with the viewer we're building
[08:13 AM]  Gez Linden: it will still touch the aditi chat cluster
[08:13 AM]  Latif Khalifa: I can se regular 1-1 IM going xmpp route too. Would save a lot of hassle for the presence to figure out where to send it :)
[08:13 AM]  Gez Linden: and it doesn't interface with legacy
[08:13 AM]  Gez Linden: right now, I just want to prove that xmpp works. Transition is next
[08:14 AM]  Gez Linden: but I want to load test, make sure I have all of the functionality
[08:14 AM]  Reed Steamroller is Online
[08:14 AM]  Gez Linden: look for edge cases
[08:14 AM]  Gez Linden: make sure people can't snoop
[08:14 AM]  Gez Linden: etc
[08:14 AM]  Thor Effingham is Online
[08:15 AM]  Latif Khalifa: yeah, i'm curious what the client has to do. login to xmpp server and join group chats that are xmpp rooms (say named with the group uuid?)
[08:15 AM]  Gez Linden: and latif, I agree... but we wanted to start with one system. IM is tied into other functions
[08:15 AM]  Gez Linden: yep
[08:15 AM]  Latif Khalifa: sounds logical
[08:15 AM]  Chantal Harvey is Online
[08:15 AM]  Latif Khalifa: did you have to mod ejabberd much?
[08:16 AM]  Latif Khalifa: to do some sort of ACL?
[08:16 AM]  Gez Linden: there were 'some' mods.
[08:16 AM]  Gez Linden: mostly mapping our current group roles to ejabberd roles
[08:16 AM]  Gez Linden: and making sure our auth worked
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: but afaik, its still set up for us to get updates as necessary. It doesn't diverge too much
[08:17 AM]  Latif Khalifa: i've managed to login to the aditi cluster using mu regular sl credentials with Psu client
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden nods.
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: that's the expectation
[08:17 AM]  Latif Khalifa: i was wondering if I could join the group chat if I knew group UUID ;)
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: don't need the UUID
[08:17 AM]  Latif Khalifa: group name?
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: its something like
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: AW-Groupies@conference.aditi.lindenlab.com
[08:17 AM]  Gez Linden: I think
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: er... .secondlife.com
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: sorry
[08:18 AM]  Boroondas Gupte: cool
[08:18 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: ooh, nice.
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: feel free to try it out
[08:18 AM]  Latif Khalifa: so the client only need know group name?
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: atm, yes.
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: but I believe we create the channels currently
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: so we avoid room camping
[08:18 AM]  Gez Linden: I have some ideas for where we can go with it
[08:19 AM]  Gez Linden: and how we can open up new features like chat rooms
[08:19 AM]  Oz Linden: Corrected url for 'findjiras' tool repo: https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/findjiras
[08:19 AM]  Gez Linden: but for now, I'd like to just make sure group chat works ;)
[08:19 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: thanks, Oz.
[08:19 AM]  Gez Linden: speaking of... I need to close up my machine and walk over to the office... get my team rolling so we can get you all some code
[08:19 AM]  Latif Khalifa: Gez, many people are fond of current behaviour where you can be basically in all group chats without having windows open...
[08:19 AM]  Latif Khalifa: for support groups, etc.
[08:19 AM]  Oz Linden: Thanks for coming, Gez
[08:19 AM]  Jonathan Yap: You can still moderate/mute group chat?
[08:20 AM]  Gez Linden: no prob oz.
[08:20 AM]  Latif Khalifa: ok, thanks for your time Gez :)
[08:20 AM]  TankMaster Teichmann: thankyou for the effert you are putting in to get this working, gez
[08:20 AM]  TonyaSouther Resident: thanks, Gez.
[08:20 AM]  Gez Linden: latif, I'd like to get a better sense of what you were suggesting above
[08:20 AM]  Gez Linden: lets sync up later.
[08:20 AM]  Latif Khalifa: ok
[08:20 AM]  Jonathan Yap: Now we know who to send email to :)
[08:20 AM]  Gez Linden: indeed ;)
[08:20 AM]  Latif Khalifa: hehe
[08:20 AM]  Gez Linden: ttfn