Doc Team/2010-11-24

Transcript

[13:00]	Nathan Adored:	Ah, here's one. Welcome Jeremy Linden.
[13:00]	Lastro Greenwood:	ah speek of the devil lol
[13:00]	Nathan Adored	has pinged you.
[13:00]
[13:00]	Jorge Erin	has pinged you.
[13:00]	Jeremy Linden:	Whoa, new people!
[13:00]	Lastro Greenwood:	hi Jeremy
[13:00]	Lastro Greenwood	has pinged you.
[13:01]	Jeremy Linden:	/me waves
[13:01]
[13:01]	Lastro Greenwood:	i got today off rl work hence my presence, right about now normally i am serving customers and avoiding a fire
[13:01]	Nathan Adored:	Ah, Lindens as devils.... that's an.... unsettling picture. Might even be true sometimes. :D
[13:02]	Jeremy Linden:	I *can* throw fire around if I have to...
[13:02]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol they're not that bad, if they were the devil i'd prolly would've worn a ban for my previous accidents
[13:02]	Nathan Adored:	/me giggles
[13:02]	Lastro Greenwood:	ahhhhh
[13:02]	Nathan Adored:	Neat fire. Pity the textures hadn't finished rezzing before it was done.
[13:02]	Jeremy Linden:	I'll probably want to modify that for the Linden snowball fight this year.
[13:02]	Nathan Adored:	:D
[13:03]	Lastro Greenwood:	hahaha thats one way of toasting marshmellows :)
[13:03]
[13:03]	Nathan Adored:	Speaking of new ppl at the OH.... I wonder how long it will be before we see someone here with Resident as his surname.
[13:03]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol i can arrange that :)
[13:03]	Jeremy Linden:	Oh hey, it's a "Lindan"!
[13:04]	Nathan Adored:	Fancy that, a Linden at an SL Office Hour! :D
[13:04]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[13:04]	Nathan Adored:	/me giggles.
[13:04]	Jeremy Linden:	Nuh-uh. I said "Lindan" :-D
[13:05]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): He's partnered with Jon, whose job it is not to show.
[13:05]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[13:05]	Jeremy Linden:	Lindens don't have partners! Except Bub, for awhile. His partner was Pony Linden.
[13:05]	VGA Dawg:	lol :)
[13:05]	VGA Dawg:	Bub Linden still working for the Lab?
[13:05]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): /me imagines Pony's office wear
[13:05]	Nathan Adored:	/me giggles
[13:06]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[13:06]	VGA Dawg:	I remember him from 6 years ago
[13:06]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Where's the link, to how we suppress our userids?
[13:06]	Jeremy Linden:	Eh?
[13:07]	Nathan Adored:	supress our userid's from what?
[13:07]	Jeremy Linden:	I think that's on the receiving end, friend.
[13:07]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[13:08]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): So, we can obly impersonate lindans, if the other person wants us to?
[13:08]	Lastro Greenwood:	i can't believe how many gesters i still have on
[13:08]	Jeremy Linden:	Well, "CG", I can see both your display name and your username. I'll have to check the transcript later to see how you appear there.
[13:09]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): /me expects the transcripts to look like [13:08] CG Lindan:
[13:09]	Nathan Adored:	I don';t see display names yet, because I'm still on a 1.x style viewer.
[13:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	same
[13:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	i am on phoenix
[13:09]	Nathan Adored:	same
[13:10]	VGA Dawg:	Jeremy whats the current state of the Support department? I'm guessing its in shambles, overworked in non-existant...
[13:10]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:10]	Lastro Greenwood:	(adding rlv support to my new hud i am developing for death sequences)
[13:10]	Nathan Adored:	(Oooo! What sort of death sequences? :D )
[13:10]	Lastro Greenwood:	whispers: that reminds me, i'll have to bug the rlv ppl to add "tphome
[13:10]	Jeremy Linden:	VGA, I can't give an official answer to that question. We are, however, working as hard as we possibly can.
[13:10]	VGA Dawg:	Thats on :-)
[13:10]	VGA Dawg:	*ok
[13:11]	Lastro Greenwood:	my hud simulates effects of various environments on the avatar, death seqences will vary according to region settings and other shnaticans
[13:11]	VGA Dawg:	I'm in badly need for some specilized support...
[13:12]	Lastro Greenwood:	like standard is you die, screen goes black and then your down for 30 sec. other opts are to tp to a set location or tp home.
[13:12]	Lastro Greenwood:	its already in support in lsl but problem is you can't tp your self home programically unless your the land owner
[13:12]	Nathan Adored:	speaking of lowered numbers of SL employees.... how badly has that damaged the processing of Abuse Reports? I've heard it said that certain sors of abuse reports are getting ppl banned without there even being a check on the truth or lack thereof of them. Just accuse someone of something, they get banned.
[13:13]	Jeremy Linden:	I don't really know, Nathan. I work on the wiki and online help, but I'd like to think our own policies aren't being ignored.
[13:13]	Lastro Greenwood:	anyhow LL are human like us, mistakes happen
[13:13]	Nathan Adored:	There was an instance I heard recently which..... really, really, really disturbs me.
[13:14]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): It sounds to me, like G-Team Nobs
[13:14]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Is London one of those places, that Linden Labs may hire?
[13:14]	Lastro Greenwood:	a friend of mine was banned due to an AR over voice chat, he had a falling out with some random and they ar'd him for disclosing personal info over voice, there was no proof either way and he ended up with a 12 hr ban
[13:15]	Lastro Greenwood:	I know australia isn't
[13:15]	Lastro Greenwood:	too far afaik
[13:15]	Lastro Greenwood:	anyhow i'd imagine it would be hard to do ones job with a 300 ms ping like i normally get
[13:15]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): 3fps?
[13:15]	Jeremy Linden:	Hm. As a matter of etiquette, can all of you see the names "CG Lindan" and "WhiteWolf" here, or should I refer to you by your usernames until Display Names becomes more established?
[13:16]	Lastro Greenwood:	atm my fps is 20 frames
[13:16]	Nathan Adored:	There is a particular, PG sandbox zone that has, imbedded deep down in its Covenent language forbidding kid-avs there. A new user who was a kid-av unknowningly showed up there, and the owner demanded she leave and (here's where it gets disturbing) told that if she did NOT immediately leave, she would be ARed for ageplay. oO
[13:16]	Lastro Greenwood:	with high settings
[13:16]	Nathan Adored:	The user was so.... unhinged by this that she immediately after that deleted her own account. OO
[13:16]	Jeremy Linden:	Nathan, I'm not sure what our abuse team could have done to prevent that.
[13:18]	Jeremy Linden:	There are some rotten people in the world... It's unfortunate that they should have to intimidate some folks right out of something they might come to enjoy.
[13:18]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Unobservant people, who don't know children from griefers
[13:18]	Lastro Greenwood:	sad thing is that ppl don't realise that most of the time what other ppl are doing is against the ToS
[13:19]	Nathan Adored:	Now, I don't know if this is a case of the sim owner mistakenly believing that just being a kid-av is "ageplay" (there IS still confusion about what "ageplay" actually means) or if the owner was aware of the difference, but so utterly hates kid-avs that she would knowingly submit a false AR. In any event, the belief of the one who deleted her account was that there s no longer enough SL ppl to process ARs properly that their often just permabanning kid-avs for merely being accused of sexual ageplay and not even bothering to check. oo I dunno if that rumor is even true, but..... EEE
[13:20]	Lastro Greenwood:	what doesn't help to squash those rumors is there is no feed back, you file an AR and get a "we got your AR" auto response
[13:20]	Lastro Greenwood:	you never find out what action was taken
[13:20]	Jeremy Linden:	Nathan, that's a very scary proposition. On what evidence is this new Resident basing that assumption?
[13:20]	Lastro Greenwood:	i've ar'd spammers and i assume they wore a LL ban hammer but i dont know
[13:21]	Nathan Adored:	Thing is, not everyone is aware there are.... potential minefilds like that. That you can show up at a seamingly safe place like a PG sandbox.... and get in trouble for it for someting that shouldn;t even be objectionable.
[13:21]	Jeremy Linden:	Lastro, that's a privacy thing. It certainly is frustrating not to be informed of actions taken, but even griefers are entitled to privacy.
[13:22]	Lastro Greenwood:	yeah i guess, though it brings up the argument, if someone is intentionally damaging the grid, shoudn't they be named and shamed, just like what is done to pedophiles
[13:22]
[13:22]
[13:22]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol speak of the devil a last name "resident" :)
[13:22]	where am	i
[13:22]	VGA Dawg:	Jeremy is it permitable to IM you with a query?
[13:22]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:22]	Jeremy Linden:	Hello devanboo
[13:22]	Nathan Adored:	I dunno.... apparently this notion that "Gee, ARs about sexual ageplay are not being investigated first, commonly" is apparently a thing that is going around. It was the first I'd heard it, but someon who's the equivalent of a Linden on another opensim grid said that that was consistent with what he'd heard, too.
[13:22]	Lastro Greenwood:	your at a Doc team office hour :)
[13:22]	VGA Dawg:	Or must I type it in public?
[13:22]	Jeremy Linden:	VGA, is it so private it can't be said out loud?
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	Nope :)
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	here it comes...
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	A very disgrunted ex customer of mine, decided he wanted to go on a crusade to bring my business down... And so far he is suceeding... I've been running one of SL's oldest and most successful businesses for just over 6 years now we supply SL with the best gaming emulators for Poker, Roulette, Multiplayer Blackjack.
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	That warning turned quickly into a 1 day suspension the day after, and 1 day after that a 3 day suspension, on Monday my total of 4 days suspension is over... Then I came to realise this individual managed to gather dozens of his alts, and send chains of frivolous abuse reports towards my account.
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	My land is suffering from visual particle spams coming from governor Linden's land where they individual placed malicious objects there with an alt with defamatory use on my business's trademark. He has copybotted the looks of this current avatar do over half of a dozen of his alts. And nothing is being done about this guy.
[13:23]	ooooooooooooooooooooo im	going to run now chase me
[13:23]	VGA Dawg:	This individual is affecting my livellyhood, and Linden Lab couldn't care less. Currently I hold only 8192m2 of land which is all I need for a showroom, and a premium account. Jeremy, can anyone help me? I've filed and appended to a support ticket, filed about 4 abuse reports against this individual and nothing...
[13:23]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:23]	Nathan Adored:	If it's NOT true (and I sincerly hope it isn't!!) something nees tobe don to dipell this rumor!
[13:23]	Nathan Adored:	*done to dispell.
[13:25]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): IS there a customer service department?
[13:25]	Jeremy Linden:	VGA, I'm not sure what more you can do, after having filed abuse reports, etc. If this person is found to be using alts to keep defaming you, support may be able to do something more permanent.
[13:26]	VGA Dawg:	I'm 100% certain he is infact I've provided those names in one of my last abuse reports...
[13:26]	Lastro Greenwood:	thats the general problem with the internet, unless you ID people properly it isn't possible to ban them
[13:26]	Nathan Adored:	Wow, that kinda intersects with my own question: With the reduction in SL employees.... what happens with false and frivilous ARs?
[13:26]	VGA Dawg:	All the alts look exactly the same as me
[13:26]	VGA Dawg:	As he copybotted this avatar perfectly
[13:26]	Nathan Adored:	wow
[13:27]	VGA Dawg:	that answers your question Nathan
[13:27]	Jeremy Linden:	I really don't have any data on whether or not our handling of abuse reports has changed.
[13:27]	VGA Dawg:	As far as I can tell, both support/AR system is overworked/exausted or there is some kind of conspiracy
[13:27]	Jeremy Linden:	I think exhausted is more likely than conspiracy :-)
[13:28]	VGA Dawg:	Your most likelly right
[13:28]	Lastro Greenwood:	+agreed
[13:28]	Nathan Adored:	I'm wondering if it might be worth instituting a new rule: Send a demonstrably false AR, such that someone could get banned, then the one who sent the false AR should get banned to the same extent.
[13:28]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): disgruntled ex linden, who knows how to play the system, is also possible
[13:28]	VGA Dawg:	Could be...
[13:28]	Jeremy Linden:	VGA, I'm cautious to mention this, but do you know what the ARs were about? Your description of your business raised some red flags for me (not that I'm about to file any reports myself).
[13:29]	Nathan Adored:	hello Adamburp
[13:29]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	hey hey folks
[13:29]	VGA Dawg:	I'm not worried about you filling abuse reports against me Jeremy but thank you for conforting me there hehe
[13:29]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:29]	Lastro Greenwood:	what needs to really happen is that there needs to be a better way of identifying people
[13:30]	Jeremy Linden:	Gambling games are explicitly outlawed here. I won't ask where your business makes its money. Just sayin'.
[13:30]	VGA Dawg:	We sell and provide support for Poker/Roulette/Multi-play blackjack tables, which are used for primarely fun... although there are people who choose to use them to violate the TOS in their own accord
[13:30]	Lastro Greenwood:	whispers: like age verification, its a bit fail because i've heard of ppl just punching in random numbers and it say "Ok thats all good
[13:30]	VGA Dawg:	And set them on Linden mode...
[13:30]	Lastro Greenwood:	Gambling is permitted on the provisio lindens are not being exchanged in anyway
[13:30]	VGA Dawg:	But most of our equipment only is sold and capable of VP$ mode, which is our virtual play money currency
[13:30]	Nathan Adored:	What's VP$ ?
[13:30]	VGA Dawg:	We don't condone gambling...
[13:30]	Jeremy Linden:	/me is not a lawyer.
[13:31]	VGA Dawg:	hehehe ^^
[13:31]	Lastro Greenwood:	VP$ is like a credit system i think
[13:31]	Lastro Greenwood:	kinda like gold in wow
[13:31]	Nathan Adored:	what do the letters stand for?
[13:31]	Lastro Greenwood:	virtual pennies? (thats a guess)
[13:31]	VGA Dawg:	All I know Jeremy my business has been already cleared over 1 year ago when I propose and negotiated the sale of it to Linden Lab, I've got a meeting with about 20 Lindens sitting in and around my poker table and blackjack table...
[13:31]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:32]	Lastro Greenwood:	haha
[13:32]	Lastro Greenwood:	nice :D
[13:32]	Jeremy Linden:	/me grins.
[13:32]	VGA Dawg:	Last I heard of them they would get back to me, after they werent busy making Viewer 2
[13:32]	VGA Dawg:	I haven't heard back from them since then ... but that doesn't bother me at all..
[13:32]	Jeremy Linden:	Noted!
[13:33]	VGA Dawg:	But my point is, we're as valid as a business can be in SL...
[13:33]	Lastro Greenwood:	if anything this disgruntled customer of yours needs help, because that kind of hatred and persistance would be of a concern
[13:33]	VGA Dawg:	In our business's Golden Age we were making about 120,000 USD a year
[13:33]	Lastro Greenwood:	bloody hell
[13:33]	Jeremy Linden:	Wow, now that's an SL business!
[13:33]	Nathan Adored:	holy guacamoly
[13:33]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): When Gambling was legal?
[13:33]	VGA Dawg:	Now you can see my dilema
[13:33]	VGA Dawg:	Thats correct Arawn
[13:34]	VGA Dawg:	We're talking about a real life income type of SL business... I can't let this villan keep hurting it, and nothing to be done about it
[13:34]	Nathan Adored:	wow
[13:34]	VGA Dawg:	eventually if I don't receive any support I'll be forced to contact SL and Real Life media about this
[13:34]	VGA Dawg:	and take further actions
[13:34]	VGA Dawg:	Not that I want to go that route
[13:34]	VGA Dawg:	I really rather it did not come to that
[13:35]	VGA Dawg:	But it seems I'm not being taken serious nor with any level or priority
[13:35]	VGA Dawg:	thats why I came here jeremy I was hoping you could either raise my ticket's priority
[13:35]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:35]	VGA Dawg:	or give me some insight into all this
[13:36]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Is Jack meeting tommorrow?
[13:36]	Lastro Greenwood:	i'd imagine so
[13:36]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	/me wonders if jeremy's tpying pad is a freebie ir where did he get it?
[13:36]	Adamburp Adamczyk	has pinged you.
[13:37]	Jeremy Linden:	It's a tough situation, to be sure. I'm serious when I say I don't have any control over that process. I don't know what more I can say on the subject without getting myself in trouble.
[13:37]	VGA Dawg:	Then perhaps you don't need to say anything :-)
[13:38]	Jeremy Linden:	Adam, I got it off a Resident who let me modify it for my own use.
[13:38]	VGA Dawg:	All I am asking is if you could raise the awarness level of my issue
[13:38]	VGA Dawg:	internally
[13:38]	Jeremy Linden:	I'm sorry, I really am, but that was included when I said I don't have any control over the process.
[13:38]	VGA Dawg:	And that would be deeply appreciated
[13:38]	VGA Dawg:	Right...
[13:39]	VGA Dawg:	Would you say if I sent some real life mail to Linden lab it might have a better chance to get some more attention there?
[13:39]	Lastro Greenwood:	i'd raise it with Jack, as he may be able to help further
[13:39]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	jeremy makes a nice cup of coffee
[13:39]	Adamburp Adamczyk	has pinged you.
[13:39]	VGA Dawg:	or if I email Philip Rosendale personally?
[13:39]	Lastro Greenwood:	i'd imagine so, because writen corespondance would have a heavier weight
[13:39]	VGA Dawg:	Philip gave me his email about 5 years ago
[13:40]	Jeremy Linden:	I'm sorry VGA. I do not know. Generally, we're supposed to discourage those kinds of things.
[13:40]	VGA Dawg:	Wow you must be proud to work in Linden Lab saying that :
[13:40]	VGA Dawg:	I feel for you jeremy..
[13:40]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[13:41]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	jer - no sugar next time dude
[13:41]	Jeremy Linden:	It's tough. There are policies and guidelines that... restrict what I can say and do as a Linden. Sometimes it hurts a lot to see something like this and not be able to help.
[13:41]	Lastro Greenwood:	i dont want to really comment on internal policy but i think it is bad practise for acompany not to allow their employees to raise their hand and say we need to look at this issue as it has the possiblity of escalating to the loss of a good customer
[13:42]	VGA Dawg:	I bet...and I was considering applying to work for Linden Lab, as an client/web developer
[13:42]	Nathan Adored:	hello Daniel Voyeger.
[13:42]	VGA Dawg:	Not after these events and conversation
[13:42]	Nathan Adored:	er... Voyager, even
[13:42]	Daniel Voyager:	Hiya. :)
[13:42]
[13:42]	VGA Dawg:	Really disheartned by what I've seen and experienced latelly.. :<
[13:44]	Lastro Greenwood:	Jeremy i am not sure how to explain it but is there some kind of feedback for the ticket system that raises an issue to management
[13:44]	Lastro Greenwood	has pinged you.
[13:44]	VGA Dawg:	Another very upsetting thing myself, and other very successfully virtual entrepreneurs experienced latelly, is the phone support system. We've heard they are pretty much a skeleton crew, that have no real powers, nor a qualified "Liaisons" Lindens..
[13:44]	Lastro Greenwood:	i'd imagine that there would be an escalation process wouldn't there
[13:44]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): we used to have G-Team Office Hours, so they stopped having them
[13:45]	Jeremy Linden:	I don't think so, Lastro. You mean something like "I want to talk to your manager"?
[13:45]	Lastro Greenwood:	yeah
[13:46]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): The Mentor system was pretty good, but that was dispersed somewhere
[13:46]	Jeremy Linden:	Please hold, I'm asking about some of this stuff internally.
[13:46]	VGA Dawg:	Ok
[13:46]	Lastro Greenwood:	like where i use to work, a customers SSL cert ran out because thier CC failed and my position didn't run on weekends, this rolled onto the back of a major confrence so we had skeleton crew. When the customer rang up, pissed off and abusive, I delt with his issue, he complained some more and I moved the ticket to a "Feedback" queue
[13:47]	Lastro Greenwood:	feedback queue basically only management can see it, and the main idea is to kill an issue before a customer is lost
[13:47]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	onme thing i like about my job - i get a snotty customer, i can jsut hang up
[13:47]	Lastro Greenwood:	Adam, problem with that is it pisses them off more
[13:47]	Hamine Byron:	why only for some residents the option for manual age verification in support acts appear?A question: why only for some residents the option manual age verification in site support appear?
[13:47]	Hamine Byron:	why only for some residents the option manual age verification in site support appear?
[13:48]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	where i work, my customers' customers call us
[13:48]	Lastro Greenwood:	when you get an abusive customer, 9/10 of the time they are not abusing you for shits and giggles. They're upset, if you have office hours and thier issue happend outside of those hours they've had time to boil and blow things out of proportion
[13:48]	Hamine Byron:	sorry for the double msg
[13:48]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	and out cxontract sasy we don;t sdeal with them
[13:48]	Jeremy Linden:	Hamine, manual age verification is only available for Premium or high Residents, I believe.
[13:48]	Lastro Greenwood:	the best thing you can do is calm them down and then inform them that they have to talk to their reseller
[13:48]	Jeremy Linden:	Premium or highER, I mean.
[13:48]	Hamine Byron:	but some not premiuns residents tell me tha appears to them
[13:49]	me denies	ever having been a high resident
[13:49]	Hamine Byron:	what mean higher resdents?
[13:49]	Lastro Greenwood:	if you hang up on them or say "its not our problem, talk to your reseller" it will only upset them more, and then you end up with an angry reseller
[13:49]	Hamine Byron:	who spend a lot of lindens?
[13:49]	Lastro Greenwood:	you have premium then conceriege, conceriege is estate owners
[13:49]	Jeremy Linden:	There are other levels of support, like Concierge (for island owners).
[13:49]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	like i said - our contract specifically says we don'r deal witgh our customers custoems
[13:49]	Lastro Greenwood:	ok
[13:50]	Jeremy Linden:	VGA and Lastro, I've just been told that you may file a "complaint case" in order to escalate an issue to a supervisor. Essentially, you just file the ticket in the same category as the original, and request that a supervisor review it.
[13:50]	Concierge is	for Mainland, too, if paying tier at the half-sim or greater level)
[13:50]	Hamine Byron:	hum, i think you are not sure about that too, because, i know residents tha isint owners land, and the option apears
[13:50]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	if they DO call us, i will try to help
[13:50]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	but if they;re rude etc, well, then talk to the dial tone
[13:50]	VGA Dawg:	Ok I'll do that immediatelly..
[13:51]	Hamine Byron:	anyway, if dont appears that option for a resident that need make the verification, and dont get for the fast way. How the resident do?
[13:52]	Lastro Greenwood:	i can't really comment because i am not sure how it works but i have always followed the rule of thumb, once i work out why they are abusive then i decide whether they get the hang up
[13:52]	Jeremy Linden:	One moment. I updated an article on the wiki for this.
[13:52]	Lastro Greenwood:	or the "please contact feedback@<blah>"
[13:53]	Lastro Greenwood:	also most of my experience with customers and phones is because i've called them or someone on the front line has blind transferred it to me
[13:53]
[13:53]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	i'll help tghem een though i'm not supposed to even take their call
[13:53]	Lastro Greenwood:	:)
[13:53]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	i'm s'posed to direct them to my own customer
[13:53]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	but if they're rude etc, well, hello dial tone#
[13:54]	although that	may be the old ticket system
[13:54]	Hamine Byron:	it is qie
[13:54]	Lastro Greenwood:	i guess its really a threashold too, when i took my first sales call (my department was a sub of sales) i was told if they swear at me its hang up
[13:54]	Nathan Adored:	ã‹¡
[13:55]	Lastro Greenwood:	and if its a case of "you guys are f***ing barsteds <insert rubbish here>" and then you find they arn't a customer, they wear a hang up
[13:55]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Burnout is a steep cost in customer contact
[13:55]	Lastro Greenwood:	that is true
[13:55]	Nathan Adored:	I can imagine
[13:55]	Nathan Adored:	Well, to go back to what I was talking about earlier.... I HAVE noticed that there is some confusion about what "ageplay" is. Too many places here, what ppl refer to as "ageplay" is actually, more correctly termed "sexual ageplay," but there are still ppl who, upon hearing that "ageplay isn't allowed," genuinely think "ageplay" = "being a kid-av," and it actually has to be explained to them that the prohibition against "ageplay" actually, and only, means sexual activity by a kid-av. I think they need to make sure the official documentation on this (the wikis) makes it very clear they're talking about sexual ageplay, that at no point should someone EVER be ARed simply because they're a kid-av. And that at the same time, any passages in the wiki where this might not be clear (i.e. it just says "ageplay" and not "sexual ageplay") should be strenthened to make it clear that it is ONLY sexual activity by kid-avs that is not allowed in this context.
[13:55]	Lastro Greenwood:	the rule i follow is age play is age play if it is a child avi in an adult context
[13:56]	Lastro Greenwood:	because if age play was being a child then prolly 90% of the teen grid are more than likely in breach
[13:56]	Nathan Adored:	And no, it is quite clear that girl who went to the sandbox was NOT doing, or rezzing, anything of a sexual nature. And, so far as I understand it, this was a PG sandbox
[13:56]	Lastro Greenwood:	even in a mature sandbox, afaik a child avi would be fine
[13:57]	Nathan Adored:	a kid-av is someone RPing that they're a kid in-world. (I.e. someone who's actually a grownup in real life having a happy, second-life second childhood)
[13:57]	alguem sabe	aonde edita cabelos?
[13:57]	Lastro Greenwood:	because mature from memory with regards to adult content, (correct me if i am wrong) adult content (sex bed for example) is permitted aslong as its behind closed doors and not avertised
[13:57]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): Children in Adolescent Context might have a problem
[13:57]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	i have s simple system: if i get a child avi on my land i ba nthem
[13:57]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	end of prioblem
[13:57]	Jeremy Linden:	Nathan, does this help at all? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay
[13:58]	Nathan Adored:	yes, Im familiar with that one.
[13:58]	re right:	on my Concierge account, I get "Manual Age Verification" as an option for Account Issue as a problem type; as a basic account, I don't.
[13:58]	Lastro Greenwood:	what about normal child avis
[13:59]	Nathan Adored:	Just wanting to make sure they continue to make sure every place that says "ageplay" where it really should say "sexual ageplay" is corrected to say "sexual ageplay" in all parts of the wiki.
[13:59]	Lastro Greenwood:	and define a child avi, i have seen places that say if your under x height but that is stupid because what about the minis?
[13:59]	Jeremy Linden:	Qie, Hamine - yes, that is a recent change to Support. Basic accounts do not get manual age verification.
[14:00]	Nathan Adored:	The general impression is that many of those places that say "You must be this hight" are bracketting to make sure anyone who might possibly be a kid-av is still barred from being there.
[14:00]	Lastro Greenwood:	when you say manual, how does it work?
[14:00]	probably need	to update that wiki article I linked, to reflect that change.
[14:00]	Qie Niangao	has pinged you.
[14:00]	Lastro Greenwood:	do you send a copy of identification and a photo of yourself holding a unique number?
[14:01]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	once held a party for a large group on my old island - umpteen turnred up as child avatars, yet he island was "adult" rated. helloooooooooooooooooooo ban list
[14:01]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[14:01]	Jeremy Linden:	Lastro, there is a manual process you can use to verify your age. Normally, I believe there is an automatic process that happens based on some other account info.
[14:01]
[14:01]	Lastro Greenwood:	automatic process from what i heard has more holes then swiss cheese
[14:02]	Lastro Greenwood:	i am tempted to try it with an alt account but its not a "sterile" environment because of hardware ids
[14:02]	Jeremy Linden:	Qie - thanks for pointing out that article. I must have missed it when I was updating them.
[14:02]	Time Minder:	You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:02]	Nathan Adored:	hmmmm..... and I just had a thought: at the top of that page it says 'policy regarding sexual "ageplay",' and it just occured to me that should COULD misinterpret that to mean "See, 'ageplay' is someting sexual," when..... perhaps it might be better to move the double-quote back so it now reads 'policy regarding "sexual ageplay"'
[14:02]	Lastro Greenwood:	i am age verified via my NSW (Australia) drivers license and everything is square but afaik RTA doesn't do ext API
[14:03]	Nathan Adored:	*that peple COUPLE misinterpret.
[14:03]	VGA Dawg:	Thank you Jeremy, I've created another ticket with your recomendation, and a copy of what I told you here... hopefully that will be more successful.
[14:03]	VGA Dawg	has pinged you.
[14:03]	Jeremy Linden:	I hope so too, VGA.
[14:03]	VGA Dawg:	Your the first helpful Linden I've spoken to in years
[14:03]	Nathan Adored:	awww http://www ... ã‹¡
[14:04]	Lastro Greenwood:	afaik unless someone provides written permission, RTA as restricted by its privacy statement as to the verification of license conds
[14:04]	Lastro Greenwood:	thats what i like about office hours, you can talk with the ppl behind it all
[14:05]	Nathan Adored:	I also just noticed, towards the bottom of that page, it says: If you are in doubt as to whether an activity may be interpreted as ageplay, we request you err on the side of caution and desist. Please note that...
[14:05]	VGA Dawg:	Indeed.
[14:05]	Nathan Adored:	shouldn't THAT part also be changed to say "sexual ageplay" too?
[14:05]	Lastro Greenwood:	but with man and auto verification, whats the difference. do you get a different flag?
[14:06]	Nathan Adored:	That is the point I'm making: ALL places where it says "ageplay" to mean sexual play as a kid-av should be changed to specificallt say sexual ageplay.
[14:06]	Jeremy Linden:	I don't think so, Lastro. I think the manual verification is for when the automatic system fails.
[14:06]	Nathan Adored:	And, in fact, there IS a definition tat appears elsewhere in cyberspace that sepcifically defines ages play as RPing that you're a kid in a VR world!
[14:07]	Nathan Adored:	So, yes, the confusion is understandable
[14:07]	Lastro Greenwood:	well thats were the confusion lies
[14:07]	Nathan Adored:	Which is why I think they sould go through and replace EVERY instance in ALL of the SL wikis where it says (just) ageplay so it reads sexual ageplay. ALL of them
[14:08]	CG Lindan	(arawn.spitteler): /me's got no idea, how hes allowed into Zindra, save tht a lack of concern is a mark of maturity
[14:08]	Adamburp Adamczyk:	onigokko
[14:08]	Lastro Greenwood:	Your friends are all dead..... Good luck
[14:08]	Lastro Greenwood:	lol
[14:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	sorry i couldn't help myself, arawn provoked me
[14:09]	Nathan Adored:	/me wonders where that "Your friends are all dead" soundbite was lifted from. Giggles.
[14:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	TF2
[14:09]	Nathan Adored:	what's TF2?
[14:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	Team Fortress 2
[14:09]	Nathan Adored:	ah
[14:09]	Lastro Greenwood:	its a Source game
[14:10]	Jeremy Linden:	Ok, time to cut for the transcript. This has been your friendly neighborhood Documentation Office Hour. If a bit dark!
[14:10]	Nathan Adored:	/me smiles.

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