AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08

• [9:34] Latha Serevi: Hi all. I guess Saij isn't around right now, hence the no announcement and slight lack of direction?
• [9:35] Harleen Gretzky: He is not online yet
• [9:35] Goldie Katsu: That would do it.
• [9:35] Goldie Katsu: Hi Zha
• [9:35] Zha Ewry: Lack of spam, anyway
• [9:35] Goldie Katsu: Like your group tag.
• [9:36] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [9:36] Zha Ewry: Group tags rock
• [9:36] BlueWall Slade: haha
• [9:36] Goldie Katsu: Yeppers
• [9:37] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
• [9:37] BlueWall Slade: Hi Rex
• [9:37] Zha Ewry: Hey all. A little distracted shovlign code to mantis
• [9:37] Rex Cronon: hi
• [9:37] Pixel Gausman: nice, Zha
• [9:38] Zha Ewry: waves at Latha and Goldie.. So... One of the major things I'd like to do, is let Latha and Goldie talk about establishign trust
• [9:38] Goldie Katsu: laughs
• [9:38] Zha Ewry: (and answer any questoins about the interop demo Linden blogged)
• [9:39] Latha Serevi: I think we'd better let the trust thing cook until next week - less than half baked so far!
• [9:40] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [9:40] Zha Ewry: I'm living in the land of half baked
• [9:40] Goldie Katsu: I was going to say I could talk generally today but will have something more concrete next week.
• [9:40] Goldie Katsu: Well we could start with the demo questions
• [9:40] Harleen Gretzky: you looked fully baked to me
• [9:40] BlueWall Slade: rebake
• [9:41] Latha Serevi: Link to the demo thing please?
• [9:41] Zha Ewry: So... Interop questions first..a nd then Trust?
• [9:41] Goldie Katsu: Yep
• [9:41] Zha Ewry: I assume most people saw the Linden Blog entry today?
• [9:42] Dahlia Trimble: I saw it :)
• [9:42] Latha Serevi: Nope
• [9:42] Zha Ewry: ahh
• [9:42] Zha Ewry: One moment
• [9:42] Rex Cronon: i haven't. what blog?
• [9:42] Zha Ewry: [1]
• [9:42] Goldie Katsu: chuckles
• [9:44] Pixel Gausman: or official pressie thingie.... [2]
• [9:44] Rex Cronon: this has been done before today
• [9:44] Zha Ewry: And.. [3]
• [9:46] Latha Serevi: Nice WSJ headline
• [9:46] Zha Ewry: Not in the same way, Rex, this is not a login/logout with amodded client
• [9:46] Zha Ewry: The sims are actually collaborating in the tp
• [9:47] Rex Cronon: u mean grids?
• [9:47] Zha Ewry: Basically, its a proof of concept, and testbed to start testing the choreography, between, rgeions, agent domain and client
• [9:47] Zha Ewry: No, the simulators, pretty much
• [9:47] Zha Ewry: Grid is a sort of nebulous term in this context
• [9:48] Zha Ewry: There isn't a component called grid
• [9:48] Goldie Katsu: Are there region domains per say, or just sims
• [9:48] Zha Ewry: So, there are flows between the client and the agent domain, the agent domain and sims and the sims and each other
• [9:48] Zha Ewry: and.. no there isn't really a region domain, which is part of the trust problem
• [9:49] Zha Ewry: What you're seeing is the strawman protocol Linden posted a few months back
• [9:49] Zha Ewry: place_avater from the client to the AD
• [9:50] Zha Ewry: then, the AD does a rez_avatar, to login
• [9:50] Zha Ewry: On tp.. its a de-rez, rez pair, between the regions
• [9:50] Goldie Katsu: and is client same as viewer?
• [9:50] Pixel Gausman: it actually simplifies things a bit for the client (when we eventually get all the code trimmed nicely)
• [9:51] Zha Ewry: yes, client/Viewer
• [9:51] Pixel Gausman: the client does a simpler place_avatar request, and agent domain handles more things
• [9:51] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [9:52] Zha Ewry: and.. in theory, likewise for the sims, since they only worry about moving the agent
• [9:52] x: Hello,: Avatar!
• [9:52] Goldie Katsu: Good to have the agent domain handle more things :)
• [9:52] Zha Ewry: At the moment, (and it should be on its way to the OpenSim mantis)
• [9:53] Zha Ewry: the code I hacked up, does the bare minimum to meet the protocol, and raise issues.
• [9:53] Pixel Gausman: zha: definition of proof of concept. :)
• [9:53] Goldie Katsu: Implementation does show up the gaps/problems
• [9:53] Zha Ewry: Which include, how do you manage multiple login authorties, in a region, how do you trust the component, issuing the request, etc.
• [9:53] Zha Ewry: Yep
• [9:53] Zha Ewry: I'm pretty ok with how ugly it is, since, it's aimed at a moving target, and to prove issues
• [9:53] Pixel Gausman: Goldie: definitely
• [9:54] Zha Ewry: mutters about the single region, on a non-grid restriction, and the odd regionHandle hacks
• [9:54] Pixel Gausman: scrapes a wart off Zha's code. :)
• [9:54] Goldie Katsu: laughs
• [9:54] Dahlia Trimble: not all the code in opensim is that pretty Zha ;)
• [9:54] Zha Ewry: More like chtulian tentacles...
• [9:54] Pixel Gausman: yeah, regionhandles is an issue that bubbled up.
• [9:55] Zha Ewry: RegionHandles, Map, and grid
• [9:55] Zha Ewry: We ran headlong into the client's faith in the universal churche of the checkerboard map of linden
• [9:55] Pixel Gausman: hey! i go to that church! :)
• [9:55] Pixel Gausman: yes
• [9:55] Goldie Katsu: I am sure the client was born into a bundle of assumptions which need to be identified and worked out.
• [9:56] Pixel Gausman: that will be a tricky one to figure out
• [9:56] Zha Ewry: Yeah
• [9:56] Goldie Katsu: Client therapy and all that.
• [9:56] Zha Ewry: The one that hurt the most, is that the regoins all have to be on the map the client gets
• [9:56] Latha Serevi: supposes she should look at the code someday. Where do I look for the repository?
• [9:56] Zha Ewry: It gets remarkably cranky, if you try to tp to a regoin the map doesn't konw about, it throws your off
• [9:56] Dahlia Trimble: opensimulator.org
• [9:57] Zha Ewry: Also.. this has been said, about 10 times.. but lets repeat it
• [9:57] Zha Ewry: This is UUID and cllient session only
• [9:57] Zha Ewry: No assets
• [9:58] Pixel Gausman: well, i think it looks for clamped values for region_x and region_y. i need to deeply ponder that check to understand what it's truely checking
• [9:58] Zha Ewry: Oh, and amusingly enough, due to enough bugs and oddity, since the sim was on the map, and mapped to vivoxx, voice worked on the OpenSim, as long as you were in voice whentyou tpd
• [9:58] Goldie Katsu: lol
• [9:58] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [9:59] Goldie Katsu: I was wondering where the audio on the video was comign from, if it was external or SL Voice.
• [9:59] Zha Ewry: Some of it was in the linden regoin
• [9:59] Zha Ewry: and then.. when we tped to opensim, the sessino stayed up
• [9:59] Goldie Katsu: There was definitel voice on the video post tp. :)
• [9:59] Zha Ewry: Yeah
• [10:00] Zha Ewry: Also, dont' tell anyone, but for a short while after you tpd? You sometimes heard chat in the old region
• [10:00] Rex Cronon: i think that the ll sim didn't tell the voice servers that u left
• [10:00] Basil Wijaya: hehe
• [10:00] Goldie Katsu: wonders who is doing the transcript for this meeting.
• [10:00] Dahlia Trimble: oops ;)
• [10:00] Zha Ewry: Actually, it told them you were moving to another sim, which was on the map and had voice
• [10:01] Zha Ewry: (and they shared the same channel) so.. it just plain worked.
• [10:01] Zha Ewry: But. its mostly a phase of the moon, and not by intent thing
• [10:01] Zha Ewry: So.. a few lessons learned...
• [10:01] Rex Cronon: intersting. so u can have sims that are connected to more than one region?
• [10:01] Zha Ewry: Handles, map, and singletones are all over the place
• [10:02] Goldie Katsu: I have some questions about the voice part, but not for here.
• [10:02] Zha Ewry: sure
• [10:02] Zha Ewry: So, if you look at the video, I hacked on _EXTERNAL onto ave names which come in from rez_avatar
• [10:03] Zha Ewry: That's to force uniqueness
• [10:03] Zha Ewry: You have to have a consistent UUID, between all the grids ot the client will throw up hard
• [10:03] Dahlia Trimble: there are already duplicate avatar names with different UUIDs on other grids
• [10:04] Zha Ewry: right
• [10:04] Zha Ewry: Its one of severla annoying singletones ni the current world
• [10:04] Zha Ewry: "Of course, all names are unique, it's only one grid"
• [10:04] Goldie Katsu: briefly thinks about tickets and kerberos
• [10:04] Tess Linden: the client caches so many things which sucks :(
• [10:04] Zha Ewry: nods
• [10:05] Zha Ewry: It has some strong opinions about the world
• [10:05] Basil Wijaya: if worlds are identified with uuids, that uuid could precede the av name
• [10:05] Goldie Katsu: Sort of like a mac address for avatars?
• [10:05] Zha Ewry: I think.. tho I am not certain yet
• [10:05] Zha Ewry: that its roughly
• [10:05] Latha Serevi: Remedial code-fu: I the server code on opensimulator.org ; what client(s) are we working with?
• [10:06] Zha Ewry: "Avatar name@agent domain authenticating" and uuid@uuid of authenticator"
• [10:06] Dahlia Trimble: currently the Linden client is the main client for opensim but there are others in the works
• [10:06] Zha Ewry: The agent domain, which voices for this avatar's ID and UUID, and uniqueness seems the right thing
• [10:06] Zha Ewry: But. That's a guess, hardly a certainty
• [10:06] Tess Linden: what we need is some way to associate an agent from one agent domain with an agent from another agent domain
• [10:07] Zha Ewry: OpenSim, normal, runs on the 1.19(4) and the 1.20(11) RC just fine
• [10:07] Zha Ewry: For the interop test, we were running on a hacked version of the 1.20(9) RC
• [10:07] Goldie Katsu: Wouldn't the agent just be in one domain and trust would allow the agent to rez in the new domain?
• [10:07] Latha Serevi: What code repository should I use if I want to squint at a client and see what it does?
• [10:08] Rex Cronon: u need a new table in your database, for which avatar, it lists the name/uuid/gridName
• [10:08] Zha Ewry: I *think* we need to assume that some avatars are going to be associated with mlutiple agent domains
• [10:08] Tess Linden: Goldie: when other people from the new domain see you, who do they think you are? _EXTERNAL? or can you someway tell them that you are also 'Tess Linden' on an OpenSim grid?
• [10:08] Goldie Katsu: hmmm
• [10:09] Zha Ewry: right now it's the hacked _EXTERNAL
• [10:09] Zha Ewry: my next spin of the patch should map the IP of the agent domain, to a string
• [10:09] Goldie Katsu: Ah yes, there is the avatar on agent domain a needs to talk with avatar on agent domain b and exchange items/see items while in region domain c.
• [10:09] Zha Ewry: so it should be "tess Linden@aditi.lindenlab" or such
• [10:09] Goldie Katsu: That is true. Wasn't sure whether we were talking about avatar in multiple agent domains or two avatars interacting.
• [10:09] Zha Ewry: Both, of course ;)
• [10:09] Goldie Katsu:  :)
• [10:09] Anamolie Poitier: do you already need an identity on the grid you're teleporting into?
• [10:10] Tess Linden: Anamolie, no you don't
• [10:10] Goldie Katsu: What do you mean by Grid anamolie?
• [10:10] Zha Ewry: In the current hack, if you have sandbox sexurity, no.
• [10:10] Zha Ewry: if you have normal security on, I boucne you out
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: On the short list for improvements, is allowing you in, only if your UUID and ave name match and are marked at TPable)
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: *as
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: (also whitelisting sims and ADs..)
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: In terms of a good spec?
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: I'd like to get some of that into the spec
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: Ways of proving that the source sim is trusted
• [10:11] Latha Serevi: I have in my mind that a "grid" will be a "set of RD's". Good idea or broken?
• [10:11] Goldie Katsu: I'd like to write some of that :)
• [10:11] Zha Ewry: right now, if anyone knows your ip/port pair..
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: they can knock on the door
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: Grid.. is a messy phrase
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: So.. lets talk for a moment about that
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: likes messes
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: right now?
• [10:12] Zha Ewry: Grid is sort of one set of servers inside a firewall, with totally open trust
• [10:13] Zha Ewry: The whole lindengrid, trusts itself, and does nothing about trust
• [10:13] Zha Ewry: Opensims, can add a bit more, but there's not a lot of protocol for that
• [10:13] Zha Ewry: When we build this out a bit?
• [10:13] Goldie Katsu: Hard crunchy outside soft squishy inside.
• [10:13] Zha Ewry: I think that we'll have some bluring of th elines
• [10:14] Zha Ewry: for example, is there any reason to assume a region has to live in one and only one grid?
• [10:14] Latha Serevi: How do you see RD's fitting in?
• [10:14] Zha Ewry: and likewise, and asset server
• [10:14] Zha Ewry: I think, a region domain, is likely to be a colletcion of regions which share trust, and can show memebership
• [10:14] Anamolie Poitier: i'm worried that if we tp into grids/sims from external networks without already having an identiry account in our destination network then it may be harder to code around the authority hacks later on. wouldn't it be easier to just have the recieving network check a 3rd party trust server to vouch that the avatar belongs to the same user on both networks?
• [10:14] Zha Ewry: so... you'd be able to say "I'm in the ZhaTest" region domain
• [10:15] Pixel Gausman: Zha: how is region domain different from grid?
• [10:15] Zha Ewry: I think a region is less than a grid
• [10:15] Pixel Gausman: and more than a breadbox
• [10:15] Zha Ewry: For starters, its only the simulators and related
• [10:15] Zha Ewry: not, for example, the asset servers, and agent domain(s)
• [10:16] Zha Ewry: and.. one might well have a settuip where, for example, each colo, was it's own region domain, and the affiliated into one grid
• [10:16] Zha Ewry: *they
• [10:16] Zha Ewry: And. trust me, this is all about 1/8th baked thinking
• [10:17] Zha Ewry: as in I've had time to think about it a lot, and bounce if off some people, but I'm probably wrong in some hotible ways
• [10:17] Goldie Katsu: and of course trusting you is different than region domain trust :)
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: nods
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: Two orthohgonal issues
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: Agent/user ID
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: and region/domain/grid membership
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: Theyll end up as part of a lovely matrix of behaviors/trust
• [10:18] Goldie Katsu: The way I see it is that we have multiple layers of trust.
• [10:19] Goldie Katsu: and how you combine them will be an interesting exercise.
• [10:19] Zha Ewry: "This is Joe Smith, voiced for by pandacorp"
• [10:19] Zha Ewry: *vouched
• [10:19] Zha Ewry: Joe can prove he's part of the "Linden, Pandacorp and FunFriendsOfChessPllaying" domains
• [10:20] Zha Ewry: "This region is part of the Linden and AvidCheckersFans" domains
• [10:20] Zha Ewry: and sort out what Joe is permitted to see/do
• [10:20] Goldie Katsu: I guess one question that comes to mind is is there another layer that we are missing.
• [10:20] Zha Ewry: Yep
• [10:20] Zha Ewry: and.. for added sport
• [10:21] Goldie Katsu: The thing that holds Joe - the over all av. and connects/links him to Linden, Pandacorp, etc. Agent domains.
• [10:21] Zha Ewry: you can assume that the "joe smith" is vouched for by PandaCorp.. is that it may be LDAP or similar under the covers
• [10:21] Zha Ewry: nods thoughtfully
• [10:21] Dahlia Trimble: what about guest access ?
• [10:22] Zha Ewry: also.. tho Morgane isn't here, in a hat tip to her, I strongly suspect most trust is goign to be no more than a link or three deep
• [10:22] Goldie Katsu: Too many layers and it gets too messy - you can't guess all the interdependencies.
• [10:22] Zha Ewry: which I htink means its more likely I'll be
• [10:22] Zha Ewry: part of domains "X,Y,Z,T,Q" and not
• [10:23] Zha Ewry: part of a domain which is a "X,Y,Z" and T and Q. too many links of trust and you don't have much procable trust
• [10:24] Goldie Katsu's: brain whispers to her federated identity
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: I am also, for th enonce, assuming
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: that asset servers, will serve up to lots of region domains
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: federation, but the trust links stay short
• [10:24] Latha Serevi: I'd be interested in refining my picture of where the asset servers sit. My inventory will be in an asset server gatekeeped-by my AD? But there will also be assets, say, rezzed in a region, gatekeeped-by its RD?
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: So....
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: Assets
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: At least three issues lurkign there
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: Where do rezzed assets live, where do unrezed one's live
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: and how does my inventory get managed
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: Inventroy, being nohting more than a list of handles to all my unrezzzed stuff, at some level
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: (One of the more annoying misconceptions is "my stuff is in my inventory")
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: Stuff is either
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: in the asset server, or rezzed
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: Your inventory merelypoints to it
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: (and when that gets borked, you get the lovely, "Can't find this asset in the database" error
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: )
• [10:27] Goldie Katsu: unless the inventory pointers get borked in which case you just don't see it any more.
• [10:27] Zha Ewry: "Failed to find clothing named old frebie jeans in database"
• [10:27] Latha Serevi: The idea of a "no copy" object disappearing from your inv when it's rezzed, seems like it may have to change a bit in the move to open grids. I'm not gonna want an asset server to delete assets just cuz they're being rezzed off in Joe's sim.
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: Well, I think that's going to depend on the permissions model of the object
• [10:28] Latha Serevi: Perhaps more like bookkeeping bits, not "delete it"
• [10:28] Goldie Katsu: Which relies on trust.
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: This is, deeply where it gets messy
• [10:29] Goldie Katsu: Yeah if assets are in the agent domain then rezzing implies a relationship between the agent domain and the region domain
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: So, if I rez my no-copy object on a private sim, and the sim crashes, and doesn't keep a copy? what am I supposed to do?
• [10:29] Goldie Katsu: and that a user has to have a "presence" in multiple agent domains.
• [10:29] Latha Serevi: No-copy objects are a thing of the past.
• [10:29] Goldie Katsu: Can't be a thing of the past.
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: Thqat's one answer, Latha, but I think that its not the only one
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: So...
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: Escrow, for example
• [10:30] Latha Serevi: In the future, they're objects wearing a unique "dog license". Just off the top of my head.
• [10:30] Rex Cronon: if u were to register your no copy object with a "special" service you might be allowed to rezz multiple copies? could that work?
• [10:31] Latha Serevi: So it's not the bits that you have only one of, but the right to use only one license.
• [10:31] Zha Ewry: If the license of an object is "I only want you to be able to have one copy rezzed at a time and I don't want it to escape the Linden Trust fomain"
• [10:31] Zha Ewry: Then, the quiestion is.. can we support such a model, and hopefully not lose the user's assets in the face of sim crashes
• [10:31] Latha Serevi: We never lose assets if we don't delete the bits. You may have to "reclaim" your license
• [10:32] Zha Ewry: if you look at the c-hhtp and escrow owrk, which linden has done
• [10:32] Zha Ewry: that's probably part of the puzzle
• [10:32] Zha Ewry: reliable ways to prove you've copied an object and in an acid transaction, deleted the orginal
• [10:32] Latha Serevi: What's the approach with escrow? Delete the bits but keep a backup copy under lock and key?
• [10:33] Zha Ewry: Its a ACID copy and delete
• [10:33] Zha Ewry: You could do an escrow copy as well
• [10:33] Latha Serevi: This "delete" stuff has got to go IMO. Doesn't it?
• [10:33] Zha Ewry: Well
• [10:33] Latha Serevi: Managing IP doesn't mean cutting out parts of your brain.
• [10:33] Rex Cronon: can it really go? there are lots of objects that were sold under this license
• [10:34] Goldie Katsu: Delete is part of any system.
• [10:34] Latha Serevi: No, Rex.
• [10:34] Zha Ewry: no, but you aren't supposed to read a book, and then copy it and sell the copy
• [10:34] Latha Serevi: No, Goldie.
• [10:34] Latha Serevi: Never delete, ever.
• [10:34] Latha Serevi: Revoke a license, sure.
• [10:34] Goldie Katsu: But bits don't necessarily ahve a functionality that can be restricted by license.
• [10:34] Zha Ewry: I think.. fairly strongly, we can design a prtocol and turst/policy set that permits the range of options
• [10:35] Latha Serevi: Zha, you are not supposed to burn all your backup taspes. That's bad policy.
• [10:35] Zha Ewry: Acutaly, Latha, sometimes I am required to
• [10:35] Goldie Katsu: and there can be an issue of proprietary info
• [10:35] Latha Serevi: No way!
• [10:35] Goldie Katsu: Will the world wide grid never have top secret information
• [10:35] Latha Serevi: Really must burn your tapes?
• [10:35] Zha Ewry: EU law, and my company's policy require it
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: We routinely destroy (for real) old e-mail, which isn't marked as special case
• [10:36] Pixel Gausman: in the past, i've been required to destroy all copies of code when a project ended
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: And, the EU privacy laws, require me to be able to delete stuff for real too
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: Not "delete, but I can dig up a copy, if I try hard" but actually delete
• [10:36] Rex Cronon: it all depeneds on the original cotract/license
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: Mind you, I don't know of much enforcement.. but its a very real use case
• [10:37] Zha Ewry: In any case, the protocol oughg to be able to easily span from the "never delete, manage copies" to "Actually kill bits" worlds
• [10:37] Goldie Katsu: yep.
• [10:37] Zha Ewry: In fact, I'd say tha's a base usecase for all this
• [10:37] Latha Serevi: Yucko. I'm still gonna drag my feet on that. Seems wrong somehow, to remove the possibility of fixing things later. Maybe if the law requires, but surely not just as the implementation of a license-to-use?
• [10:38] Zooby's: All: three labrador models have been completely redone. As you know all updates are FREE! Please rerezz your old pet to receive the latest update.
• [10:38] Zha Ewry: Lataha, I have some personal e-mail goign back to 1980. I'm with you, but.. I also delete my e-mail that's routine and older than 2 years, at work.
• [10:38] Latha Serevi: Archival of email, and management of an asset DB, may not be identical issues
• [10:38] Anamolie Poitier: i think the license-to-use stuff will be more for functional content and must-delete stuff will probably be more for confidential data
• [10:39] Zha Ewry: I'm fairly laissez faire on prtocol design
• [10:39] Zha Ewry: I'm willing to assume we can design it to span the cases and let people build licences they think will sell
• [10:40] Goldie Katsu: I think we have to assume that the protocols we design will be used as the developers see fit.
• [10:40] Zha Ewry: if it turns out that 90% of people *hate* licenses which result in lost assets, then stores and creators will likely evolve to more open ones, but.. I hate to gyuess
• [10:40] Zha Ewry: nods at Goldie
• [10:40] Zha Ewry: People, in general, will bend our work to thier needs, and the easier, we make that, the happier we will be
• [10:41] Latha Serevi: I guess I'm just thinking that "secure transactions involving reliable deletion of bits" is an unnecessary precondition for "license-preserving interaction between sims". Maybe it won't be too hard to have that as part of the first impl, but I don't see a requirement for it really.
• [10:41] Pixel Gausman: zha: let's just make sure we dont flex ourselves into a security hole
• [10:41] Zha Ewry: I'd much rather have a design which allows it to be clear that an obejct is being deleted, than.. one where its happenign anyway
• [10:41] Zha Ewry: nods at Pixel
• [10:41] Goldie Katsu: Yep.
• [10:41] Zha Ewry: Well, I assume that some people will, build totally open domains, and that they won't ever get hooked up to some grids, and that's ok. Thr protocol should, if possible
• [10:42] Zha Ewry: handle everythign from totally permissive policies, to ones which will make the prims cringe
• [10:42] Pixel Gausman: Zha: is there a list of use cases that we anticipate?
• [10:42] Goldie Katsu: And I think there will be some places where "suggested best practices" might be useful but can't be defined as part of the standard.
• [10:42] Zha Ewry: "No, no, don't rez me on that sim, they are mean to me"
• [10:43] Latha Serevi: Zha, this is a big enough issue that I'll stick with it for a few more minutes. If we get stuck in the idea that "rights-preserving sim" is identical to "delete-on-transfer sim", I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
• [10:43] Goldie Katsu: ^might^will^
• [10:43] Goldie Katsu: I think the implementation isn't one we can control
• [10:43] Goldie Katsu: what we need to define is a way to know what the sim will be doing.
• [10:43] Zha Ewry: I think we can anticpiate that there will be a large cry for a set of polcies which closely follow the current Linden rules, as best we can make that happen
• [10:43] Zha Ewry: +1 goldie
• [10:44] Zha Ewry: Protocol, is better at marking behavior than enforcing it
• [10:44] Latha Serevi: Shouldn't we try hard to retain open to the possibility of a sim implementing the LL rules in a different way than the knee-jerk one?
• [10:44] Zha Ewry: Absolutlye Latha
• [10:44] Zha Ewry: I assume we'll see lots of variations
• [10:44] Zha Ewry: Goldie's been very cogent, in suggesting layering, and policy as they way to go here
• [10:44] Zha Ewry: if the protocol supports a range of options
• [10:45] Zha Ewry: the greate ecosystem will fill out those which work
• [10:45] Latha Serevi: That means, don't put in a requirement for delete-the bits, but rather respect-the-license. But it would be easy to make that mistake of casting "delete-the-bits" in stone. Let's not.
• [10:45] Zha Ewry: and gradually evolve away form deadends
• [10:45] Goldie Katsu: and Goldie is trying to make it though the documents and define the layers that she sees based on what she is reading. :)
• [10:45] Zha Ewry: I think you need a "KILL THIS OBJECT or be in violation of TOS" abilitiy
• [10:45] Zha Ewry: I don';t love that
• [10:45] Zha Ewry: but.. I think it's probably needed
• [10:45] Latha Serevi: Where the implementatino of KILL is based on licenses, not bits.
• [10:46] Zha Ewry: (Thaty may be, don't make it vaialable short of a legal requyest to"
• [10:46] Zha Ewry: *available)
• [10:46] Rex Cronon: the bits support the license:)
• [10:47] Zha Ewry: if someone wants to write a license which says "Destroy the bits after 180 days" and we can mark it and support it, and someone has a trust domain permitting it? I'm not going to buy many of those objects, but.. people may
• [10:47] Zha Ewry: (ack, RL phone call, one moment)
• [10:47] Latha Serevi: OK, but if we then let that become the default permissions for all legacy objects, we've shot ourselves in the foot again.
• [10:48] Latha Serevi: regrets having mentioned legacy objects at all
• [10:48] Goldie Katsu: Ah well there are two issues there - what do we make the protocols support and what do we do when we transition legacy bits.
• [10:48] Latha Serevi: Let's forget legacy for now, forget I said it.
• [10:48] Goldie Katsu: Probably isn't ours to decide anyway :)
• [10:49] Latha Serevi: What seems more relevant is, making it easy to choose a sensible scheme for newly built objects. One that doesn't require secure delete-theib-ts transactions just to make an object sellable.
• [10:49] Rex Cronon: whoever makes it, decides that
• [10:50] Latha Serevi: Not if they dont have the choice. And we need to noodge them in an open direction or opensim is toast.
• [10:50] Goldie Katsu: Ideally the implementation should make it easy to know what you are deciding.
• [10:50] Goldie Katsu: And what you are deciding when you buy.
• [10:51] Goldie Katsu: I suspect this may evolve.
• [10:51] Rex Cronon: i don't really think that a lot of people like to be "pushed" one way or the other
• [10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: like I said in the jira "Stage 3" will be a process
• [10:52] Zha Ewry: returns from talking, ever so politely to the RL plumbers doing angerous things to RL water pipes
• [10:52] Anamolie Poitier: did they have any advice?
• [10:52] Latha Serevi: Mostly I'm suggesting that we try to promulgate the idea that "rights-preserving" doesn't mean "police state with secure deletion", and that "making money" doesn't require "clamoring for the most restrictive possible system"
• [10:52] Goldie Katsu: Teflon tape.
• [10:52] Latha Serevi: ...and provide good alternatives.
• [10:53] Zha Ewry: At the prrotocol level? I think we allow a broad range
• [10:53] Zha Ewry: as.. a resident?
• [10:53] Zha Ewry: I am going to encourage and support creatyors who offer sane licenses
• [10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: WEll, I expresed what I think ar ethe two extremes in teh jira: Creation-grid-only (grid permissions) to any grid (any permissions). The hard part is the middle
• [10:53] Zha Ewry: I don't buy non-mod prim clothin, and I support copy/no-xfer as desirable
• [10:53] Goldie Katsu: I think it would be beneficial to define the options and look at the implicans of eaopiton.
• [10:54] Goldie Katsu: *each option
• [10:54] Zha Ewry: nods at Goldie
• [10:54] Latha Serevi: How about a disclaimer on the "delete it" option that says "this is probably a bad idea, consider using licenses instead. does the same thing, faster and with less risk of data loss.". :-)
• [10:54] Zha Ewry: I think we need a few strong use cases
• [10:55] Goldie Katsu: waches her USB bus decend into madness and waits for the panic
• [10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I think there are two issues: designing the system to handle anything we can think of (hard) and making sure it handles what already exists (still hard)
• [10:55] Zha Ewry: Actually, Saij, I'd argue.. that getting the prtocoll right is going to be easier, than getting the community to adopt some things
• [10:56] BlueWall Slade: whaqt happens when RIAA/ASCAP and such get here?
• [10:56] Goldie Katsu: Confidentiality Integrity Availability - people have different priorities on the security triangle.
• [10:56] Latha Serevi: looks at her wristwatch
• [10:56] Rex Cronon: i don't thing u need to "lead" anybody to do anything. u need to clearly explain their choices, and let them decide
• [10:56] Zha Ewry: yeah, 2:00 is my drop dead
• [10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the community doesn't need to adopt anything. It can be "THis grid only" forever after. The trick is the folks who want to open up may not understand all the implications (certainly we don't, so hw could they?)
• [10:57] Zha Ewry: Oh.. and by the way.. for amusement, the prim on the right, with two aves floating.. is the first round trip tp
• [10:58] Goldie Katsu: The 8th layer of OSI network model is always the hardest.
• [10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: so you went SL => OpenSIm => SL?
• [10:58] Anamolie Poitier: are we there yet?
• [10:58] Zha Ewry: Yeah
• [10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: The wiki didn't make that clear
• [10:58] Zha Ewry: We have done both directions
• [10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: is that a state secret still?
• [10:58] Zha Ewry: In fact
• [10:59] Zha Ewry: I did 20 at one point
• [10:59] Zha Ewry: 10 round trips
• [10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: very good
• [10:59] Zha Ewry: I'll blog all that sometime this afternoon
• [10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: now we need to get teh pyogp working for TP and loop it to go all day long
• [10:59] Anamolie Poitier: did you come from opensim to sl the same way you went from sl to opensim?
• [10:59] Zha Ewry: yes
• [10:59] Anamolie Poitier: "Zha Ewry_EXTERNAL"?
• [10:59] Zha Ewry: nods
• [11:00] Anamolie Poitier: neat :)
• [11:00] Zha Ewry: Tha's because the initial login was via aditi
• [11:00] Latha Serevi: Before I go, I'd still like to know the best set of client source code to squint at, if any. repository please.
• [11:00] Zha Ewry: So, the UUID of me.. was from Aditi, not my local server)
• [11:00] Zha Ewry: heh.
• [11:00] Zha Ewry: Since I contirute code toward opensim, I dont' look at client source
• [11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: my original python login code
• [11:00] Zha Ewry: Pixel does, tho, and can tell you
• [11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: and for the new login, pyogp.
• [11:01] Tara5 Oh: Off to OpenSim i need a tp hehe!
• [11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: is OPenSIm meeting starting?
• [11:01] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [11:01] Tara5 Oh: now!
• [11:01] Zha Ewry: Yeah, OpenSim office hours, either now, or in an hour, dependign on who you believe
• [11:01] Goldie Katsu:  :)
• [11:01] BlueWall Slade: in 1 hour, i think
• [11:01] Zha Ewry: mutters about timezones
• [11:02] Goldie Katsu: Well I'll go back to reading the protocol and straw men and draw up some layers of trust.
• [11:02] Goldie Katsu:  :)
• [11:02] Zha Ewry: See many of you, at OS, or at office hours at Zero's
• [11:02] Anamolie Poitier: what can i do to help the project?
• [11:02] Goldie Katsu: by draw I mean identiify.
• [11:02] Zha Ewry: nods
• [11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: various folks from metanomics have asked as to write uup a non-geek description of what we're talking about
• [11:03] Rex Cronon: what is this opensim office hour?
• [11:03] Zha Ewry: You want to try and present that next wek, Goldie?
• [11:03] Goldie Katsu: Yeah.
• [11:03] Rex Cronon: or meeting
• [11:03] Zha Ewry: [4]
• [11:03] Rex Cronon: thank you
• [11:04] Zha Ewry: gestures to Saij.. Numebr one item on next weeks agenda
• [11:04] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
• [11:04] Goldie Katsu: I may be able to do that Sai if no one else is volunteering.
• [11:04] BlueWall Slade: for anyone interested: you may attach regions to help with testing and getting ready for the interop [5]
• [11:04] Zha Ewry: And.. not from me ;-)
• [11:04] Rex Cronon: have fun
• [11:05] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye rex
• [11:06] Zha Ewry: ok. Off I go..
• [11:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
• [11:06] BlueWall Slade: laterz :)
• [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: great, cuase I think Zha's on vacation next week, isn't she?
• [11:07] Goldie Katsu: Don't know her schedule
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: she said something about someone covering for her soon. Will need to check on that
• [11:08] Goldie Katsu: Well I've agreed to lead up some discussion on Trust, so perhaps that is me.
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: This stuff is fascinating, in a pervsre sort of way
• [11:08] Goldie Katsu:  :)
• [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: but I've always been a bit of a mosochist