Difference between revisions of "Talk:Second Life Railroad"

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{{talk}}
{{talk}}
If you have a different idea about the information as described on the [[Second_Life_Railroad| main page]] you can use this Talk page to add your comments, idea's and suggestions. Please don't add them in the main text.
== Page integrity ==


comment from 08-28-2010:<BR>
For some reason {{User2|Jer Straaf}} feels it is needed to give the users only access to his point of view on these pages. I am removing the images and content I created for these pages, and do '''NO LONGER ALLOW ANYONE TO USE THEM''' on the Second Life Wiki. As of now 6 September 2010 the page integrity has been compromised and should been seen as grieving propaganda from {{User2|Jer Straaf}}, {{User2|Yevad_Doobie}} and {{User2|DOUGIE_Flossberg}}.[[User:Stryker Jenkins]] 06:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
This topic is not covered in a consistent manner.<BR>
The VRC (formerly the SLRC) is only one of many SL railroading groups. This article contains VRC advertisements and a link to their private web site.<BR>
Jer Straaf


Answer:<BR>
The statement made here by Stryker is untrue. He has given no specific examples because there are none.<BR>
Yes the creator of this page is member of the VRC. You should not feel wronged if the page isn't complete enough in your view. Just suggest addition or changes to it.<BR>
Unless my changes have been un-done again, this wiki article is now clear, concise and well organized. With the exception of the VRC advertisements, it is also objective.<BR>
--[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 13:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Please look at this article and form your own opinion.<BR>
 
[[User:Jer Straaf|Jer Straaf]] 02:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<BR>
 
----
 
The entire community is wronged when a subject is covered in an inconsistent or biased manner.<BR>
I submitted additional text to you and it was used, however, the article does not seem to currently contain it.<BR>
The recent meeting is not the beginning of standard-setting on the SLRR, published and de facto standards have existed for years.<BR>
The mention of your own group's station locations is just an obvious example, lots of people have track-side stations.<BR>
Please present the public with a more balanced treatment of this subject, I have tried to help you.<BR>
Jer Straaf<BR>
 
Answer:<BR>
If you have additional Station landmarks or other factual information to add the the main page you can of course do so.<BR>
The whole nature of a wiki is to provide users with up-to-date information. Like other resources, for example wiki page links or websites of other SL railroad related groups.
The only thing that may be wise to do is to also present source information and leave the information that is not totally wrong in place.<BR>
I would be more then willing to offer my help to put your or anyone elses information in the main page. (But I know you can do it Jer :) ).<BR>
--[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 12:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 
 
----
 
ONLY OFFICIAL LINDEN STATIONS SHOULD APPEAR IN THIS WIKI.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
YOU ARE NOT THE LINDENS, THEREFORE, YOUR PRIVATE GROUP'S STATIONS SHOULD NOT BE LISTED HERE.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
PLEASE CONSIDER USING SL'S CLASSIFIED ADS INSTEAD.<BR>
Erm, propaganda?  You published tarnished approximations of 2 of my established brand names in SL on the wiki page without even consulting me, which I have since asked you to remove. If you had consulted me you would have received a flat refusal as I do not want my brands associated with this page for a number of reasons.  Now I see a slanderous statement about me at the top of this page, which I am taking on its pathetic face value at this moment...[[User:Yevad Doobie|Yevad Doobie]] 03:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Jer Straaf<BR>
<BR><BR>


Answer:<BR>
== Content editing and removal ==
That is one opinion, yours. I tend to disagree. This page is about ALL of the Second Life Railroad.<BR>
The wiki can be added to by anyone. There for you can add any station you like.<BR>
See: [[Editing_Guidelines]] for more information.<BR>
--[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 14:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


----
"''who are we to decide what goes and what stays''"... As long as information is not out of date or proven to be wrong information should stay as it is and not be needlessly removed. This is for the benefit of '''all viewers''' of the SLRR main wiki page. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 11:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
<BR> <BR>
If the information is about Linden Labs' SLRR, is objective and is factual, it stays.  If it is off-topic, biased or self-serving, it goes.  It's that easy, Stryker, everyone except you gets that.<BR>
Yevad Doobie has even filed a support ticket to have his entry removed from the "SLRR Stations" list.<BR>
[[User:Jer Straaf|Jer Straaf]] 23:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


THIS IS A BIASED ARTICLE AND VIOLATES THE WIKI NEUTRALITY PRINCIPLE.<BR>
:* Removal of "SLRR Station" would be counter productive and self serving. Certainly not in the best interest of the SL users who want this information. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 10:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<BR>
<BR>
: This is a "straw man fallacy" Stryker, nobody is proposing that the section be removed.  Most residents use classified ads and work hard to build popularity and traffic for better search results, etc. The rest of us are playing Second Life, what game are you playing? [[User:Jer Straaf|Jer Straaf]] 22:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
THE TITLE OF THIS ARTICLE IS SECOND LIFE RAILROAD, THE SECOND LIFE RAILROAD IS OWNED BY LINDEN LABS.<BR>
<BR><BR>
<BR>
We seem to have a working solution  for the problems with this page, but there are a few open ends that i think should be fixed.
ANY DISCUSSION OR LISTING OF THE HUNDREDS OF PRIVATE RESIDENT "STATIONS" GOES BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THIS SUBJECT.<BR>
The current page text says about the SLRR:
<BR>
<BR><BR>
LISTING PRIVATE RESIDENT STATIONS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE OF THE THE NON-NEUTRAL INFORMATION PRESENTED HERE.<BR>
"Some residents feel it is completely unnecessary, some residents believe that it should remain free and open for use by all residents, others have tried to control and restrict usage of the SLRR. Some residents believe that the LDPW shows favoritism towards one particular SL railroading group."<BR><BR>
Jer Straaf<BR>
This text is a left over of the past wiki war.  I do not think is provides a very  inviting introduction to the SLRR. For sure we must be able to do better on the front page. My suggestion is that we have a short dicussion here to find a format acceptable to all, that is a bit more positive. Any takers? [[User:Vaughn Deluca|Vaughn Deluca]] 11:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


:*Stop shouting and vandals. This is not Wikipedia, and there is no need to poke in the rules that do not apply to SekondLife Wiki. If you want to expand the article to their views - are called, but do not preach to others and not impose it on them.[[User:KroygGealach Greymoon|KroygGealach Greymoon]] 23:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
== Linden word on the subject ;) ==
:*Heck, I have even listed your build in Dubia, Andiana City. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 00:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


I'm the Linden responsible for community-facing stuff on this wiki, so I hope this clarifies:


----
Okay, first, Jer, it helps to not type in ALL CAPS. That looks like shouting and has the unfortunate effects of provoking anger.
YOU SAY "there is no need to poke in the rules that do not apply to SekondLife Wiki."  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?<BR>
<BR>
ANYONE PRESENTING INFORMATION HERE MUST DO SO IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, NOT FOR PRIVATE AMBITIONS.<BR>
YOU HAVE OMITTED BALANCED INFORMATION THAT I HAVE PROVIDED YOU.<BR>
YOU ARE USING THIS ARTICLE TO PROMOTE YOUR PRIVATE GROUP'S AGENDA RATHER THAN PRESENTING AN UNBIASED VIEW OF THE SECOND LIFE RAILROAD WHICH IS OWNED BY LINDEN LABS.<BR>
STOP REMOVING MY WARNINGS ABOUT THE LACK OF NEUTRALITY IN THIS ARTICLE.<BR>
Jer Straaf<BR>


Answer:
Second, '''this isn't Wikipedia, we don't enforce NPOV like they do'''. Sometimes NPOV is useful, ''but'' many articles are ''expected'' to have subjective bias based on real experiences, which can turn a dry read into something more vivid and useful — especially when it comes to culture. (We're more like [http://tvtropes.org/ TVTropes] that way.) However, we're ''always'' subject to the Second Life Terms of Service here, so inflammatory behavior that violates that isn't cool.
:* The requested information from Jan 18th 2010 is copied into the history page. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 06:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
:* It is time to start a constructive dialog and / or edit the page so it's to your liking, as long as you keep what is there now. That is still valid information. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 06:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
:* No need to put in warnings design to make the original writer look bad. Just edit the page your self! --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 06:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
:* Put in your own information to your group / groups (Who do you speak for in this case?) and make it neutral that way please. --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 06:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


'''[[Editing_Guidelines#Linking_of_Content|''It's fine'' to list related pages]] towards the end of an article. This is ''not'' out of scope. Linden Lab ''encourages'' connecting related ideas.''' On help pages, you often see this as "See also" or "Related resources". (This is common on Wikipedia as well.) The point is to provide broader context without diluting the article's focus. Without those links, most Residents would be at a loss as to where to go next — in this case, to find out about other railroads. So, it's alright to list "Other Railway initiatives", and I see some of these initiatives already have their own pages. That's the right thing to do, and that's great!


----
Hopefully railroad factions who aren't yet included will be inspired to make the listing more comprehensive.


ok
What ''would'' be beyond the scope of this article? As an example, ''if'' other railway initiative descriptions began to take up multiple paragraphs and dominate the article — then those should be moved to other pages too. Again, I emphasize: '''simple links are good'''.
first thing that came into my mind seeing this quarrel was:


"he who starts yelling stops thinking"
Carry on, ''choo-choo!''


and yes - it's a proverb we are using in germany.
{{TorSig}} <font size="1">on 2010-09-01 @ 4:58 AM Pacific</font>


jer: this article is about the slrr. if its incomplete in your eyes, why dont you add whats missing in your eyes?
or are you, in the end, just a troll, as many are telling me?
i am slow in making up my mind about a person. even re-questioning my opinions several times.
but what i saw of you at the brownbag meeting and how i saw you acting here are pretty much 2 completely different worlds.
or was it a linden that kept you from senselessly flaming?
we are all rail-people. so what the heck are you going on about?
it's a wiki, and therefore share your knowledge and not your mean comments!
sorry, had to give my 2 cents about that.
Ev
[[User:Everest Piek|Everest Piek]] 07:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
<BR><BR><BR>
I HAVE EDITED THIS ARTICLE, STRYKER HAS REMOVED THE INFORMATION AND SAID "DO NOT EDIT THIS ARTICLE DIRECTLY."<BR>
I POINT OUT THE LACK OF NEUTRALITY, AND NOW STRYKER SAY STOP COMPLAINING AND GO AHEAD AND EDIT THE ARTICLE DIRECTLY.<BR>
STRYKER HAS REMOVED MY NEUTRALITY WARNING AND CAN REMOVE ANY OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW AT HIS OPTION.<BR>
MANY RESIDENTS BELIEVE THAT THE AUTHORS HAVE A PRIVATE AGENDA THAT IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE PUBLIC GOOD, THAT IS THE VIEWPOINT BEING CENSORED HERE!<BR>
PLEASE SEE: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest Conflict of Interest]<BR>
I WON'T PLAY THIS "CAT AND MOUSE GAME" WITH THE TRUTH ANYMORE, A SUB-HEADING CALLED "SLRR CONTROVERSIES" MAY BE ADDED INSTEAD.<BR>
<BR>
AS A RESULT OF MY POSTINGS, STRYKER HAS PUT SOME OF INFORMATION I PROVIDED BACK INTO THIS ARTICLE.<BR>
THIS ARTICLE REMAINS BIASED HOWEVER, AND CONTINUES TO VIOLATE THE WIKI NEUTRALITY PRINCIPLE.<BR>
<BR>
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE AUTHORS HAVE A PRIVATE WEB SITE WHERE THEY CAN CONTROL VIEWPOINTS AND ADVERTISE ANYTHING THEY WISH.<BR>
THIS WIKI IS A PUBLIC SL FACILITY, HOWEVER, AND SHOULD BE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS AS ANY PUBLIC WIKI PAGE.<BR>
<BR>
ACTING "HURT" OR "SHOOTING THE MESSENGER" DOES NOT ABSOLVE AN AUTHOR'S RESPONSIBILITY TO THE SECOND LIFE COMMUNITY.<BR>
Jer Straaf<BR>


Jer: The way you are writing here wont change anything, because you are doing it like a TROLL.<br> <b>Remember to keep some nettiquette!</b><br>Writing stuff in caps wont get you heard more, as with me as with the forum users more used to read fora will simply ignore such stuff as it is mostly referred to flaming. If you do not know what that is, google or wiki it. You are not stupid. So please stop such "Script Kiddy Behaviour" and start posting stuff that makes sense!<br>Ev<br>{{unsigned|Everest Piek|04:11, 30 August 2010}}
:* retracting comments from 11:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC) to Jer and Torley  --[[User:Stryker Jenkins|Stryker J]] 17:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


:I took about an hour to read through this discussion, through the editing histories of the related articles, as well as through [http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Jer+Straaf Jer's] and [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?limit=500&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Stryker+Jenkins&namespace=&year=&month=-1 Stryker's contributions].
<BR><BR>
:After reading all that, I got to agree with Everest before me, that the way this situation is handled by Jer seems highly immature.
:@Jer: When you want to give further input to this subject, I'd highly recommend to please stop to engage in accusations, and start to join a constructive editing process. ''What exactly'' is wrong and ''how'' would it be better? (I'd also welcome it when you'd refrain from writing in all caps, as it isn't adding any value and seems disruptive.)
:The reason why this article is written from the 'sole point of view of a single Resident' is, because that sole Resident seemed to be the only one who cared enough to sacrifice his free time to write the article in first place. When you got constructive information to add, please do so in order to improve the article. I, for one, think that Stryker did a good job on dealing with the issue so far and that he tried to encourage you multiple times to provide constructive feedback.
:Furthermore, please be aware (as already mentioned) that this is a Wiki, though that this is not Wikipedia.
:We try to embrace some of Wikipedia's principles, though we share a different set of rules. Let's try to spark some [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiLove WikiLove] all together :)
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] <sup><small>([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]])</small></sup> 21:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


<BR><BR>
:: This text-brawl needs to end now for everyone involved. I've given Jer Straaf a warning due to unuseful, inflammatory rambling which doesn't constructively followup on my earlier comments. Remember that there are ''many'' external places where dissenting opinions can be raised. This wiki, however, is owned by Linden Lab. {{TorSig}} <font size="1">on 2010-09-02 @ 9:19 AM Pacific</font>
YOU SPENT AN HOUR READING AND THEN DECIDE TO COMMENT ON <b>ME</b> INSTEAD OF THE BIASED SLRR ARTICLE?<BR>
IF YOU LIKE "BAITING," "HECKLING" AND "AD HOMINEM" ARGUMENTS, PLEASE GO TO SL'S GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM, YOU WILL FIND WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THERE.<BR>
<BR>
SHOULD A PRIVATE SL GROUP BE ALLOWED TO IGNORE IMPORTANT FACTS AND RE-WRITE HISTORY TO THEIR OWN LIKING?<BR>
SHOULD THE OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS OF SL RESIDENTS BE CENSORED BECAUSE SOMEONE "CLAIMS" THE TOPIC AS THEIR OWN?<BR>
SHOULD FREE ADVERTISING AND OTHER SELF-PROMOTION BE INCLUDED IN SL WIKI ARTICLES?<BR>
EXCELLENT STANDARDS FOR WRITING WIKI ARTICLES EXIST, WHY SHOULD THEY BE IGNORED HERE?<BR>
SHOULD OBVIOUS CONFLICTS OF INTEREST DISQUALIFY CERTAIN AUTHORS FROM CONTROLLING A TOPIC?<BR>
THESE ARE A FEW OF THE ISSUES I HAVE RAISED ON BEHALF OF MYSELF AND OTHER CONCERNED RESIDENTS IN THE RAILROADING COMMUNITY.<BR>
<BR>
STRYKER HAS INCLUDED INFORMATION I SUBMITTED AND LATER REMOVED IT, AND BECAUSE OF MY PROTESTS, HAS NOW PUT SOME OF IT BACK INTO THE ARTICLE.<BR>
STRYKER REMOVED MY EDITS AND SAID "DO NOT EDIT DIRECTLY" AND NOW SAYS STOP COMPLAINING, JUST EDIT THE ARTICLE, I DO, AND THE TEXT IS REMOVED AGAIN.<BR>
<BR>
WHAT MORE PROOF DOES ANYONE NEED OF THE "CAT AND MOUSE GAME" BEING PLAYED WITH THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS ARTICLE?<BR>
<BR>
THIS PUBLIC FACILITY IS BEING USED BY A PRIVATE GROUP TO PROMOTE THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN AGENDA.<BR>
MY MESSAGE TO THE PUBLIC IS THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENT VIEWPOINT SHARED BY MANY RESIDENTS THAT YOU MAY NEVER BE ALLOWED TO READ ABOUT IN THIS ARTICLE.<BR>
Jer Straaf<BR>
<BR>

Latest revision as of 03:47, 12 September 2010


Page integrity

For some reason Jer Straaf feels it is needed to give the users only access to his point of view on these pages. I am removing the images and content I created for these pages, and do NO LONGER ALLOW ANYONE TO USE THEM on the Second Life Wiki. As of now 6 September 2010 the page integrity has been compromised and should been seen as grieving propaganda from Jer Straaf, Yevad_Doobie and DOUGIE_Flossberg.User:Stryker Jenkins 06:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The statement made here by Stryker is untrue. He has given no specific examples because there are none.
Unless my changes have been un-done again, this wiki article is now clear, concise and well organized. With the exception of the VRC advertisements, it is also objective.
Please look at this article and form your own opinion.
Jer Straaf 02:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


Erm, propaganda? You published tarnished approximations of 2 of my established brand names in SL on the wiki page without even consulting me, which I have since asked you to remove. If you had consulted me you would have received a flat refusal as I do not want my brands associated with this page for a number of reasons. Now I see a slanderous statement about me at the top of this page, which I am taking on its pathetic face value at this moment...Yevad Doobie 03:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Content editing and removal

"who are we to decide what goes and what stays"... As long as information is not out of date or proven to be wrong information should stay as it is and not be needlessly removed. This is for the benefit of all viewers of the SLRR main wiki page. --Stryker J 11:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

If the information is about Linden Labs' SLRR, is objective and is factual, it stays. If it is off-topic, biased or self-serving, it goes. It's that easy, Stryker, everyone except you gets that.
Yevad Doobie has even filed a support ticket to have his entry removed from the "SLRR Stations" list.
Jer Straaf 23:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

  • Removal of "SLRR Station" would be counter productive and self serving. Certainly not in the best interest of the SL users who want this information. --Stryker J 10:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
This is a "straw man fallacy" Stryker, nobody is proposing that the section be removed. Most residents use classified ads and work hard to build popularity and traffic for better search results, etc. The rest of us are playing Second Life, what game are you playing? Jer Straaf 22:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)



We seem to have a working solution for the problems with this page, but there are a few open ends that i think should be fixed. The current page text says about the SLRR:

"Some residents feel it is completely unnecessary, some residents believe that it should remain free and open for use by all residents, others have tried to control and restrict usage of the SLRR. Some residents believe that the LDPW shows favoritism towards one particular SL railroading group."

This text is a left over of the past wiki war. I do not think is provides a very inviting introduction to the SLRR. For sure we must be able to do better on the front page. My suggestion is that we have a short dicussion here to find a format acceptable to all, that is a bit more positive. Any takers? Vaughn Deluca 11:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Linden word on the subject ;)

I'm the Linden responsible for community-facing stuff on this wiki, so I hope this clarifies:

Okay, first, Jer, it helps to not type in ALL CAPS. That looks like shouting and has the unfortunate effects of provoking anger.

Second, this isn't Wikipedia, we don't enforce NPOV like they do. Sometimes NPOV is useful, but many articles are expected to have subjective bias based on real experiences, which can turn a dry read into something more vivid and useful — especially when it comes to culture. (We're more like TVTropes that way.) However, we're always subject to the Second Life Terms of Service here, so inflammatory behavior that violates that isn't cool.

It's fine to list related pages towards the end of an article. This is not out of scope. Linden Lab encourages connecting related ideas. On help pages, you often see this as "See also" or "Related resources". (This is common on Wikipedia as well.) The point is to provide broader context without diluting the article's focus. Without those links, most Residents would be at a loss as to where to go next — in this case, to find out about other railroads. So, it's alright to list "Other Railway initiatives", and I see some of these initiatives already have their own pages. That's the right thing to do, and that's great!

Hopefully railroad factions who aren't yet included will be inspired to make the listing more comprehensive.

What would be beyond the scope of this article? As an example, if other railway initiative descriptions began to take up multiple paragraphs and dominate the article — then those should be moved to other pages too. Again, I emphasize: simple links are good.

Carry on, choo-choo!

- Torley-favicon.png on 2010-09-01 @ 4:58 AM Pacific


  • retracting comments from 11:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC) to Jer and Torley --Stryker J 17:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)



This text-brawl needs to end now for everyone involved. I've given Jer Straaf a warning due to unuseful, inflammatory rambling which doesn't constructively followup on my earlier comments. Remember that there are many external places where dissenting opinions can be raised. This wiki, however, is owned by Linden Lab. - Torley-favicon.png on 2010-09-02 @ 9:19 AM Pacific
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