Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

07:59	Cummere Mayo	hey ann :)
	Oz Linden	wow... good turnout today
08:00	Honour McMillan	we were promised cookies
	Cummere Mayo	yeah lotta things to say
	Jonathan	I heard about the popcorn
	Q Linden	hey all
	Jonathan	Hi q
	Oz Linden	all on-topic, of course....
	Temple Fiertze	Hello Oz and Q
	Honour McMillan	Q!
	Q Linden	having machine troubles, brb
	Ann Otoole	Q needs a beefier computer
08:01	Jonathan	Or a hot spare
	Cummere Mayo	is it his comp or is it the client? Im struggling with the 2.7 build
	Ann Otoole	my 2.5 has no delete/trashcan for picks
08:02	Cummere Mayo	that is fixed in 2.7 ann
	Ann Otoole	i'm feeling ripped off :(
	Temple Fiertze	Oz, do you formally open the floor for questions, or do we just dive in?
	Dil Spitz	Hey there :) if no one protest i like to listen this meeting silently
	Ann Otoole	so another it was there and someone paid to put it back again?
	Jonathan	Everyone is welcome Dil
	Honour McMillan	Dil :) I rarely speak
	draconis.neurocam	there is sort of an agenda page on the wiki
	Cummere Mayo	dil: heathen! we cast you out! J/k
08:03	Ann Otoole	The agenda for the next meeting is: 1. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834 2. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978 3. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49 4. Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned. 5. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
	JIRA-helper	VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
		VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
		VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
	Jonathan	vwr-24136
08:04	Wolfpup	oz this going to be a mix of text and voice?
	Ann Otoole	i actually like the new OH page. easy tofind stuff and the calendar is great
	Jonathan	what is the url for that agenda?
	draconis.neurocam	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
	Oz Linden	no... I was just being lazy... waiting for Q
	Ann Otoole	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
08:05	Oz Linden	if there are things you want to discuss that are not on the agenda, add them now (at the end)
	Cummere Mayo	um might want to refresh the agenda
	Temple Fiertze	I believe this forum is for Viewer 2 changes?
08:06		If that is correct, than I will type question
	Ann Otoole	# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49 Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned.
	JIRA-helper	VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
		VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
	Cummere Mayo	theres more stuff now ann
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'm logged in but it still doesn't give me edit perms, Oz
	Oz Linden	Q is having some system difficulties....
	Ann Otoole	# https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/storm-2 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24807
	JIRA-helper	VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
		VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
		STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
		VWR-24807 Add ability to filter cookies into the browser
	Fancy Linden Greeter	Q Linden has arrived!
	Ann Otoole	wb Q :)
	Oz Linden	it is not edittable by sections... use the tab at the top of the page
08:07	TriloByte Zanzibar	ok thanks
	Q Linden	sorry, all, Firefox decided to claim all of my machine
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	bad FF
	Cummere Mayo	take it you made the mistake of upgrading too?
	Q Linden	ah well
08:08		anyway, what are we talking about so far?
	Honour McMillan	you
	Cummere Mayo	we jsut psoted the agenda
	Oz Linden	we were waiting
	Ann Otoole	i hesitate toupgrade anything. windows update usually kills ny network card.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	"lets wayt for q to come back"
	Q Linden	nice to see such a big crowd
	Oz Linden	let's start at the top.... VWR-23834
	Cummere Mayo	grins wickedly
	Temple Fiertze	New to this, so maybe I'm missing the agenda, but here is my question...The new Profile View in 2.5 is not working on Mac computers. Is there a fix for this?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Morning, Q
	Cummere Mayo	temple can you add that to the end of the agenda please?
08:09	TriloByte Zanzibar	Temple, it works fine on my machines
	Cummere Mayo	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
	Temple Fiertze	Where is the agenda?
	Jonathan	I messed up the numbering of the agenda not knowing how to format the wiki
	Temple Fiertze	As stated, new so I think I'm missing something
	Honour McMillan	smacks Jonathan
	Jonathan	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
	Q Linden	temple, are you getting SSL error?
	Temple Fiertze	thanks
08:10	Ann Otoole	everyone take a deep breath because it is awesome andeasy once you seehowit works
	Oz Linden	who put 23834 on the agenda?
	Cummere Mayo	jonathan for future reference to do what you were trying is ##
	Jonathan	ok, please fix it
	Emma Floresby	hello :) am I bothering ?
	draconis.neurocam	i did, it is a problem that is worse in some sims than others, i notice it usually when logging in
	Ann Otoole	unlike my broken space bar that only half works.
	draconis.neurocam	watching the debug menu
08:11		i just get spammed with llmediadataclient requests
	Honour McMillan	Morning Emma
	Emma Floresby	hi Honour :)
	draconis.neurocam	the sheer amount of which usually causes framerate loss
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Oz, that's the problem that we talked about last week with the viewer stuttering, I believe
	Ann Otoole	are they redzone url forcings? thats everywhere on mainland now.
	Oz Linden	I think we should take a look at it, but would you please add some pointers to places where the problem is especially bad soe that we have good test cases?
08:12	draconis.neurocam	sure, i can add them to the jira comments
	Q Linden	whoops, that's on my queue and I let it slide
	Oz Linden	Ann... not the current agenda item
	Jonathan	Oz, reload that agenda page when you have a moment
08:13	Ann Otoole	so llmediaclient requests are not related to scripted forcing of urls toload?
	Oz Linden	it's not the performance issue, Ann
	Ann Otoole	ok
08:14	Oz Linden	next item : VWR-16978
	TriloByte Zanzibar	VWR-23834 is relates to VWR-23318
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318 VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"
	Q Linden	i'm not sure it is, trilobyte, but it may be
08:15	Ann Otoole	I only get some stutter as stuff firehoses in on landing. After that it settles down.
	draconis.neurocam	for 16978 i added that as well, the fix is easy and has been listed on the viewer 2 tweaks page since the day viewer 2 dropped almost
		im just wondering how it never found its way in
08:16	Q Linden	I'm moving 23834 to STORM so we can tackle it in a sprint
	Jonathan	vwr-23944 and vwr-23946 address this and some other organizational issues
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946 VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar
		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944 VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement
08:17	draconis.neurocam	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks/Full_2.0.0.203055#Add_Inspect_back_on_objects_and_avatar_objects is the fix for adding inspect back in
	Oz Linden	I've not used this feature on 1.23, so I can't really comment
		Q?
	draconis.neurocam	it is useful when finding stolen content
	Cummere Mayo	its an amazingly useful feature
	avatar42	I agree
	Jonathan	Oz, those are 2 items from my long list--I thought Wolf would look at them
	Ann Otoole	presumed "stolen"content anyway
	draconis.neurocam	reguardless the information is useful
	Cummere Mayo	theres tons of other places it comes in handy too
08:18	Ann Otoole	i'd love to right click an avatar and see a list of their entire payload by name including memory and script count myself.
08:19	Cummere Mayo	nyx is working on soemthig like that
	Jonathan	Ann, I have a svc jira in for that, too
	lufpleh Obstreperous	wonders if Object Profile > Details is similar to Inspect
	Sera Lok	seems like there is something in the properties window that does "Inspect", it's just not called "INspect"? i'm not on v2 right now so can't check :/
	Q Linden	ann, wouldnt' that be a privacy leak?
	Honour McMillan	Luf it doesn't give the detail
	Jonathan	There is Object Profile and then Object Details
		which is the old Inspect
08:20	Honour McMillan	hmmmm
	Ann Otoole	nope. it would allow us to eject people carrying malicious objects
	Jonathan	but it is hard to find and doesn't always work
	Ann Otoole	and spot script overusers fast
	Jonathan	you can wear a hud to script usage / avatar
	Script Counter	Total Avatar Scripts - 2250 Highest - Temple Fiertze: 649 (29%) Lowest - Oz Linden: 0 (0%)
	Jonathan	*to see
08:21	Oz Linden	A quick process note... 16978 describes a solution, not a problem
	Q Linden	i'm not really sure what's being asked for here
	Oz Linden	I've just heard several problems for which it _might_ be the right solution
	Ann Otoole	so the feature is there by way of scripts now. why not be in the client?
	Cummere Mayo	a return for a feature that 1.x had that 2.x didnt q...
	F L I P	"'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0" isn't a problem?
	Ann Otoole	we are talking avatar attachments and not rezzeditems right?
08:22	Oz Linden	not clear, Ann
	draconis.neurocam	it is removed functionality from 1.2x and snowglobe
	Cummere Mayo	a feature incredibly useful to buidlers, sim owners, etc
	Jonathan	Oz, my 2 jiras are better written--I mean to pass them by snowstorm once wolf is more settled in
	Cummere Mayo	(btw inspect worked on rezzed items and on attachments)
	oobscure	I apologize for the interruption: unfortunately I have to leave now and i'm not sure I'll be back in SL before the meeting's over. I'm the one who added https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 to the agenda, so feel free not to discuss it here .. but please take note that 2.5 official release seems to be unusable for Linux users because of this bug. Bye everybody, and again sorry.
	JIRA-helper	STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:23	Ann Otoole	i'm kind of curious about privacy in general. which user group should we discuss privacy in?
	Q Linden	thanks, oo, 809 is in process now
08:24		but anyway, let's get back to the other issue
		this feels related to but not identical to the build tools question
	Oz Linden	it is not a requirement that the viewer always preserve all past ways of doing anything, so if a feature is removed that's not by itself a bug. In this case, it's clear that many people have problems that feature helped with, so we should probably do something about it. Whether or not that somethign is bringing back exactly the old way remains to be seen
	Q Linden	oz is correct
	draconis.neurocam	the code is still in the viewer, all that is required is an xml change
	Jonathan	Oz, that feature is present, just not easily discovered
	Cummere Mayo	the code is still there exactly
08:25	Q Linden	I remember that we reenabled this a while back
	Jonathan	That are what my 2 jiras are about
	Ann Otoole	as long as we can be aware of the new method.I've personally relearned everything for SLv2.
		didn'tkillme torelearn
	Jonathan	The old Inspect is now Object Details, down in Object Profile window
	Cummere Mayo	but it doesnt work well with attachments
08:26	Jonathan	Cummere, it will if my 2 jiras are taken up
		I fixed that 2 months ago but they got put on hold
	Q Linden	So yes, I'd like to get wolf in on this discussion, now that we have him.
	Oz Linden	Ann... might it be a good learning tool if we added a Hint for this... the first time you open Object Profile it could popup a reminder that the details are there and describe whta they do?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I like that idea, Oz
08:27	Gentle Heron	Hints are almost always a good idea!
	Ann Otoole	sure. might help some. i hack away tilli figure it out.
	Jonathan	everyone please look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944
	JIRA-helper	VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement
	Cummere Mayo	that would work though imo it would be better to make it a front level
	Jonathan	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946
	draconis.neurocam	oh, i am sorry actually i did not realize it was still there but hidden in the object profile tab
	JIRA-helper	VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar
	Jonathan	note the attached images
	Cummere Mayo	I like jonathans solution much better
	Q Linden	Jonathan, thanks.
	Cummere Mayo	easier faster less confusing and less clicks
08:28	Oz Linden	ok... I think we've got the problem framed well enough to get some review going on solutions
	Q Linden	Let's get wolf on this and pursue it soon; I'm thinking when we get the build sprint going
		right
		let's move on
	Jonathan	Wolf is our new ui design member, he can evaluate these ideas
	Oz Linden	time to move to the next item?
	draconis.neurocam	yes
	Cummere Mayo	please
	Oz Linden	ecc-49
		https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
	Jonathan	that's an internal link
	draconis.neurocam	since 2.4 cloth deforms have not been viewable on other avatars
	Cummere Mayo	that looks like it should go to nyx's team but... they no longer have a usergroup
08:29	Oz Linden	clingy pants
	Sera Lok	wow that's a 1.xx thing too eh?
	Q Linden	it's public, though, jonathan
	Sera Lok	found its way into v2 yay
	Q Linden	we talked about this yesterday in our internal meeting
		we're trying to get it some attention
	Nea Fredriksson	i added in the jira comments that this seems to cause avatar cloth effects to show on skintight clothes too
08:30	draconis.neurocam	until mesh comes out theres no way to have baggy clothing that looks semi decent, and non stiff
		without it
	Q Linden	can we just say yes, we know, and we've escalated it?
	draconis.neurocam	ok
	Ann Otoole	are you sure that is not tied to something else like rebakes partially complete and pressing rebake starts the cycle again except the moment you press rebake it rezzes properly?
	Oz Linden	we did some checks yesterday, and rebake doesn't seem to help, Ann
08:31	Q Linden	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17469
	JIRA-helper	VWR-17469 Cannot delete broken links
	Q Linden	doesn't consistently help :(
	Jonathan	I started to work on this--now I know how to make a broken link, but didn't figure out how to delete them yet
08:32	Cummere Mayo	dumb question but might this be a server side thing?
	Oz Linden	well, creating the problem is usually more than half the battle :-)
	Jonathan	no, it is done in the viewer
	Q Linden	jonathan should we move it to storm?
	Jonathan	yes
		it is a definite problem, though occurs rarely
	Cummere Mayo	as i siad dumb question
	TriloByte Zanzibar	wouldn't you delete them by taking the item off (or detaching) from current outfit and re-saving?
	Ann Otoole	no repro is kind of a problem there.
08:33	Jonathan	I will put in the repo
	Ann Otoole	people need tosend the stuff to the devs to try with
	Cummere Mayo	that doesnt work trilo
		at least... not for me
	Jonathan	Trilo, what you said applies to a link, not a broken one
08:34	Cummere Mayo	ann the broken links i had were not easily or consistantly reproed
	Q Linden	jonathan, STORM-1002
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1002 STORM-1002 Cannot delete broken links
	Jonathan	thank you Q
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ok, I'll muck around with it again. The couple times I'd seen a broken link in my inventory, that's what got rid of it
	Cummere Mayo	q open mic
	Jonathan	You should be able to r click on a broken link and just delete it
	Wolfpup	i hear you q ans Oz
08:35	Cummere Mayo	anyways move on?
	Q Linden	ok, sorry about that, voice fail :(
	Oz Linden	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
	JIRA-helper	VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
	Cummere Mayo	please please please can we do this?
	Q Linden	so the problem is that I think if we do this it will break SLURLS
08:36	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	please no, its usefull being able to run more than one viewer at once
	F L I P	Ya know, if you call someone and they don't accept within a certain amount of time, the call won't work even when they finally do accept. Not sure how relevant that is o.O
	Cummere Mayo	tank this will let you
		easier
	Q Linden	what the bug is asking for is that it be the default
	Oz Linden	The question I've got is... is this potentially confusing to users who are not power-SLers?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	tank this will let you. The idea is to have it always be true and get it off the debug settings list
	Wolfpup	actualy that has ben upgraded so that it is in the general tab of preferences
	Cummere Mayo	i really dont think so oz...
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	then its not being deprecated...
	Q Linden	the SLURLs work by starting a viewer and handing off the destination
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I can't imagine that you'd try to run multiple viewers if you're not a power user
08:37	Cummere Mayo	q ive almsot never had an issue getting the surl to the viewer i want
	Oz Linden	but might you start more than one unintentionally?
	Wolfpup	actualy it is in the advanced tab of preferences
	Oz Linden	like with a slurl?
	Jonathan	If you click on a slurl and have a viewer running you get a teleport-to floater, right?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, slurl links haven't worked for me in over a year
	Cummere Mayo	nope
		it looks for one open
		before it starts a new
	Ann Otoole	grumbles about wiki and the + instead of spaces
	TriloByte Zanzibar	not for me, cummere... at least not in mac os
08:38	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	well, ok, phoenix has this enabled by default, and rarly if ever have we had a support issue on it
	Q Linden	so this isn't a terrible idea, but nor is it a slam dunk
	Oz Linden	that spaces problem is different... and is fixed now except on Linux
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	so it might be alright in the official viewer to have it enabled by default as well
	Cummere Mayo	its one of the first 24 things im usually asked about by new rezis
08:39	Ima Mechanique	sOz soinstead of a "Sl is already running" message that happens currently, replace with a "Are you sure you want to open another viwer dialogue"
	Cummere Mayo	can /how do I run more then one viewer
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	that would be fine
	Ann Otoole	it is an option in preferences to run multiple viewers now
	Q Linden	why do new users want to run mor ethan one viewer?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	same here, it's a popular topic in the macintosh users group as well
	Oz Linden	I've got a suggestion... if we wrote a test plan that included all the ways to launch SL and whether each should or should not start a new one....
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	alts
	Oz Linden	and agreed on that
08:40	Cummere Mayo	q becuase they found a reg api that allows them to make a new avi with a legacy name in most cases
		and want to xfer stuff
	Ann Otoole	heck i reinstalled and slurls just get me adialog toassociate a program now
	Oz Linden	and then had someone turn on Allow Mutiple Viewers in t the current viewer and run through the cases
	TriloByte Zanzibar	alts/photos/machinima
	Q Linden	ok, cummere, that makes sense
	Oz Linden	then we'd know if we've got a problem or not changign the default
	Ann Otoole	use case matrix hades
08:41	Cummere Mayo	(which should give you soem feedback to hand back to whoever about registration names too)
	Q Linden	good point :)
	Oz Linden	do we have a volunteer to write the test cases?
08:42	Cummere Mayo	-if- i find time this weekend
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	the only short term issue might be that sence user settings are inversse of the origonal, there might be some conflits there untill the user clears their settings file
	Oz Linden	if we have to, we could easily build a test viewer once we have a test plan
08:43	Jonathan	Is it in their privat settings file if they have never changed it?
	Oz Linden	but until we know what all teh cases are and what we want for each, there's not much point
	Cummere Mayo	Ill try ang get one together over the weekend. if i dont... remind me at scrum monday
	Q Linden	oh, if this is a binary setting, we literally can't change the default
		we have to create a new setting with the opposite value and change the code
	lufpleh Obstreperous	thinks the present preferance check box is suffucient, little gain to be had by this
08:44	Oz Linden	or just change the code, if we find that we don't really need a setting
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
		i think currently its a bool
	Q Linden	yeah, probably
	Cummere Mayo	if its really not needed wouldnt it be awesome to strip it out ?
08:45		unneeded code is a waste
	Q Linden	IF
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	^
	Q Linden	anyway, let's talk again after investigation
	Oz Linden	Next - VWR-24804
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804 VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
	Sera Lok	begs the question in what case does a user NOT want to have the ability to run mult viewers... not so much why they would want it
08:46	draconis.neurocam	this was being looked at by andrew linden, it was mentioned at the server meeting yesterday
	Ryu Darragh	I use it when testing.
	draconis.neurocam	the reattaching issue
	Ann Otoole	I have never repro'd that one.
	Q Linden	sera, because most people don't have multiple logins
	Ryu Darragh	Multiviewer is usefol for content creators.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	The only time I've had removed attachments revert is during periods of heavy server lag
	Oz Linden	moving on....
	Q Linden	it does feel like an advanced use case to me
	Jonathan	Multiple viewers is also useful to be on 2 grids at the same time
	Sera Lok	yes,, I use it alot.. that was my point^^ anyway..
	Q Linden	anyway....
08:47		SH-999 is under active investigation
	Ryu Darragh	I've never had the attachment problem.
		Even with 2.x
	Q Linden	so I think this is happening now
	Cummere Mayo	thats related but NOT the same issue
	Q Linden	not sure we need to say much more here, do we?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yes, it's been happening occasionally, think of it as rubber-banding on attachments
08:48	Ryu Darragh	Do others see these phantom attachments?
	Cummere Mayo	this occurs with any layer and doesnt always boot attachments, usually puts old clothing and attachments back on
	F L I P	I don't like that JIRA's use of the term "boots off" (presumably to mean "detaches") so close to the word "Jacket"...gets confusing, are we talking about boots or jackets?
	Cummere Mayo	and they arent phaontom everyone sees them
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I believe so, but just like with rubber-banding, removing again usually resolves it
	Ryu Darragh	Any item, I think, Flip
	Q Linden	so if everyone sees them, feels like a server issue
08:49	TriloByte Zanzibar	it's definitely a server issue
	Jonathan	It was discussed in detail with Andrew
	Cummere Mayo	k well i dont have the ability to move to svc
	Ryu Darragh	And if not, is a client machine/connection problem?
	Q Linden	and both andrew and the SH team ar e on it
	Oz Linden	should I move this to SVC, Q
		?
	Q Linden	yes, let's do that
	lufpleh Obstreperous	oskar & kitty barnet were discussing trying to repro this yesterday in beta group
	Oz Linden	next item is STORM-2
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2 STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
08:50	Cummere Mayo	ild like to know what the palns are to take this?
	Ryu Darragh	Yummy ^.^
	Ann Otoole	can-o-wurmz?
	Ryu Darragh	I eat wurmz...
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	lol
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the project build showed promise, but needed work
	Cummere Mayo	personally i think graphics movement prefs should be also similarly saveable
	Q Linden	ok, i'm gonna put a stop right here to saving floater states as part of this project
08:51		we could bury this by adding too much
	Ann Otoole	well the default bottom bar buttons are newbieish already. wouldlove an advanced user setting that is the oppositeof that. (for instance)
	Q Linden	first step is just the positions and sizes
		and presence
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thats really helpful right there
	Cummere Mayo	right... and my understanding is we have that?
	draconis.neurocam	not for things on the sidebar, they are definitely only in one place
	TriloByte Zanzibar	local chat width as well, I don't think that was included yet
08:52	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	id like to see all the buttons on the bottom enabled by efault so new users know they exsist
	Oz Linden	Question for you alll.... what do you tihnk of the bottom bar buttons with icons in Firestorm, as opposed to the text labels?
	Cummere Mayo	oz I love firestorms ui
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I prefer icons, more space efficient
	Ryu Darragh	I'm interested in trying multiple child windows for those of us with multiple monitors.
	Ima Mechanique	loved Firestorm
	Ann Otoole	i don't use tpvs except once in a while kirstens
	Oz Linden	I didn't ask a general question, Cummere
	Cummere Mayo	including their ability to make the annoying sidebar optional
	Dil Spitz	debug-floater also do not remember its pose as the statisics do also no
	lufpleh Obstreperous	fine forolder users, meaningless to new
	Cummere Mayo	bu the iocns are a +
		smaller, sleaker, dont require translating
08:53	Sera Lok	prefers a choice or, if icon, mouseover text at least
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	if you allow different skins, like in FS, you can have different skins with different UI options
	Ann Otoole	i personally think allviewers should use the same iconography
	draconis.neurocam	if the images would make it possible to maybe move some sidebar things to the bottom bar i would be all for it
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the one in 2.x with the little camera seems universally understood (and no need for localization, save for floating help/tooltip)
	Q Linden	based on bitter experience, you have to have some text for buttons, even if it's just a tooltip
	Sera Lok	i like being able to point to a named thing when helping newer residents, not an icon thingie i have to describe
	Q Linden	so you gotta localize that anyway
		exactly, sera
	Oz Linden	focus people... this becomes impossible if everyone goes off on a separate tangent
08:54	Ann Otoole	*if* LL wanted a true skinnable UI then there is a lotof work to be done.
	Q Linden	we know, ann, and that's why storm 2 starts it
	Cummere Mayo	usually if they have tool tips on i can help them find icons
	Ann Otoole	like eqII etc
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	sere does have a point, and the main reason why we added skins with lables instead of icons fo rht ebuttons, despite it takes up more room
	Oz Linden	we're trying to bite off the pieces we have some hope of swallowing and that don't cause support confusion
08:55	Q Linden	right (*gulp*)
	Ann Otoole	LL should not support custom skins
	TriloByte Zanzibar	do you have a lot of support issues with the snapshot button, Oz?
	Cummere Mayo	we might not be able to get rid of ALL text but we could probably make more of them icons
	Ann Otoole	not support teamwise
	Cummere Mayo	like a map for the map button ><
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	if possible, perhaps have it optional to display lables or not?
	Ann Otoole	skinners must support their skins
	Sera Lok	shrugs.. i like text
	Cummere Mayo	and the almsot unviersal speak icon for the vc button
08:56	Oz Linden	Icons arent' the problem for support, TrioByte... fully skinning that allowed users to drastically rearrange the interface probably is
	Ann Otoole	don't be a skinner if you don't want topay the support time price
	Q Linden	and to sera's point, you have to have a name
		for everything
		even if it's not on the screen
	Ryu Darragh	Need to have either rollbacl system or a revert button :P
	Cummere Mayo	yeah but allot of that can be done in tool tips
08:57	Q Linden	anyway, icons on the bottom bar -- i sthere a jira for that?
	Sera Lok	true enough. i'm just thinking of new users already overwhelmed with images/icons
	Oz Linden	The problem arises when skins are shared... some newbie meets a power user, power user says "use this skin", newbie is now off the reservation with little help possible because support doesn't even have the skin
	Ann Otoole	if i made a real mmorpg ui then i would never ask LL's support staff tosupport it.
	Ryu Darragh	Yes.
	Cummere Mayo	amen ann
08:58	TriloByte Zanzibar	I see VWR-22599 for icons on bottom bar
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22599 VWR-22599 Bottom bar icons only
	Ryu Darragh	You'd need to vette such skins like 3rd part viewers and that'd be a nightmare.
	Sera Lok	but you can bet people using it would be looking to LL to support it eh^^
	Cummere Mayo	oz... with all due respect... we dont send new users to support... we want them to get support
		><
	Oz Linden	not helpful, Cummere
	Ann Otoole	LL's support would simply say "you are detected using a tpv UI. You must contact them for support. Goodbye."
08:59	Cummere Mayo	oz... support tells new residents "file a ticket"
	Ryu Darragh	I'm on a ressie support team and *we* need to know what viewer and have used it when we help newbies :P
	Ann Otoole	so we have a solid requirement for skin identification
	Oz Linden	which is a failure from the newbie point of view, so it's not a trap we want to leave lying around
	Q Linden	ok, so that's all the time we have....
		all the time *I* have anyway
	Jonathan	Can the rest of the agenda carry over to next week?
	Q Linden	so thanks all
		yes
	Oz Linden	thanks folks...good meeting
	draconis.neurocam	yes much thanks q and oz
	Cummere Mayo	wish would could make this twice weekly
	Sera Lok	thank you, will you be looking at the other items not reached today?
	Ryu Darragh	Thanks for being here, Q
09:00	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	aww, i wanted to know whats going to be new in 2.6 :P
	Dil Spitz	thanks Q :)
	Jonathan	Sera, they will carry over to the next meeting
	Temple Fiertze	ANy help from anyone would be good for item 14
	Ann Otoole	tyhanks guys. i'm liking the new format.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thx for taking your time with us, oz and Q
	Temple Fiertze	this is a question that effects my RL job
		thanks!
	draconis.neurocam	tank its 2.7 now, but you could easily download and try it
	Sera Lok	ok thanks Jonathan^^