Mesh/Archive/2012-05-07

Agenda

1. I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
2. Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
3. People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah
4. What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon
5. Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon
6. What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon
7. I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell
8. Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 -- ₪ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
9. Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome
10. When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon
11. I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• √ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
• DrFran Babcock (drfran.babcock)
• Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
• Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)
• JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
• lucasyori2001 (lucasyori2001)
• Motor Loon (motor.loon) (User's Wiki Page)
• Nal (nalates.urriah)
• Nyx Linden (nyx.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
• Pamela Galli (pamela.galli)
• Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
• Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
• Second Life (second.life)
• «∑ ÄŒØ…≥—Å—î—ï—ï SŒø…ëœÅ…¶—É (sopherian.yumako)
• Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
• Tobias Novi (tobias.novi)
• Vincent Nacon (vincent.nacon) (User's Wiki Page)
• Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)
• Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)

Transcript for Monday May 7, 2012

[12:00]	Nyx Linden	greetings all
[12:01]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Hello hello
[12:01]	Vincent Nacon	muhaha!
[12:01]	Nyx Linden	agenda is here, feel free to add topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:01]	DrFran Babcock	hello, Vir, everyone
[12:01]	Rusalka Writer	All-purpose squid!
[12:01]	Pamela Galli	Calamari
[12:01]	Motor Loon	very neat avi Rusalka
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer	Mahalo! Most kind.
[12:02]	Nyx Linden	we'll give everyone another minute or so to log in and then we'll get started
[12:02]	Motor Loon	(and tasty with hotsauce)
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer	Hey!
[12:02]	Motor Loon	°͜°
[12:02]	Ƿʀίɳсєѕѕ Sοɑρɦу (sopherian.yumako)	HAI2U!!!1!
[12:02]	Rusalka Writer	Calamari my dreams...
[12:02]	Vivienne Daguerre	while we do that, can I show you something odd?
[12:03]	Motor Loon	no it's not an adult region Vivi
[12:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	Arch A: Uploaded, adding the physics shape into the uploader, and setting prim type to prim so you can walk through the arch. 55 prims
[12:03]	DrFran Babcock	yes, walking through mesh is a mess.
[12:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	Arch B: Uploaded same collada file without setting physics, then uploaded the same physics mesh separately, linked them setting the physics mesh as the root and making it transparent, and then setting the higher prim mesh to none. Significant land impact savings. 36 prims
[12:04]	Nyx Linden	there's more space on the grassy hill on the other side of the meeting space for example content :)
[12:04]	Vincent Nacon	topic added
[12:04]	Nyx Linden	hrm very interesting. We shall have to get to that later :)
[12:04]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	rezzing things in the spot I usually stand D:
[12:04]	Nyx Linden	but for now, topic 1: "I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:05]	Motor Loon	Old viewer?
[12:05]	Motor Loon	Mine wont let me do that anymore...
[12:06]	Vincent Nacon	I believe that is expected behavior
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ughh...did I miss the answer to my question?
[12:06]	Pamela Galli	Just read it out Asha
[12:06]	Nyx Linden	I think the intention was that lower LODs could use a subset of the materials from the highest LOD, but I'd have to double check the code to be certain. I'm not sure if its working correctly at the moment, so reproduction info is always appreciated.
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ah ok great ^^
[12:07]	Motor Loon	You certainly shouldn't be able to upload that on the maingrid
[12:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ok then Nyx. Thanks.
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon	yeah, gotta have those same ID mat
[12:07]	Motor Loon	yeah
[12:07]	Motor Loon	oh oh... got something to add to the agenda
[12:07]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Nyx; I just added a topic. Please refresh the agenda page?
[12:07]	Vincent Nacon	add it
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Generally we want the viewer and server to have the same view of what's an error, but since those are implemented two different places they can get out of sync.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	I refresh periodically :)
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon	wait... you didn't have any news, Nyx?
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Details on a repro/example model would be helpfukl.
[12:08]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	helpful also
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Will do Bazz
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:09]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	/me checks the agenda
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer	I like this question.
[12:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	me too
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon	But Nyx. It's noty supposed to lose the textures on the high LOD mesh. See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28612
[12:09]	JIRA-helper	[#VWR-28612] Incorrect texture-face associations when low LOD meshes have subsets of high LOD materials. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon	it switches very fast because it loads the lowest LOD and then works up the LOD to the highest as it loads the whole asset
[12:10]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ahh there is already a jira.
[12:10]	Nyx Linden	thanks drongle, I'm pretty sure the current implementation is not matching the intention at the moment :)
[12:10]	Rusalka Writer	Delicately phrased.
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon	aye
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	That isn't what I'm talking about Vincent.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	that's one possibility - or is the LOD switching happening after the mesh fully loads?
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	based on zooming the camera in and out, I presume?
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I mean that the switch is different. The switch for a non-rigged worn mesh happens like it would if it were rezzed.
[12:12]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Oh wait, it got better.
[12:12]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Nyx crashed already?
[12:13]	DrFran Babcock	well, I hope he can relog. It's been iffy
[12:13]	Nyx Linden	apologies, have a crash to hunt down apparently
[12:13]	DrFran Babcock	but, he's a Linden :-)
[12:13]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Heh.
[12:13]	Tiberious Neruda	I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass disabled logins
[12:13]	Motor Loon	I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass crashing °͜°
[12:14]	Nyx Linden	if I had to guess, I'd say that the attachment is likely switching LODs based on its size, like a normal in-world object, but rigged meshes are switching based on the size of the total avatar
[12:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Crashes are ultimate non-discrimination app
[12:14]	Nyx Linden	crashing is an equal-opportunity feature!
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Right. That was my guess.
[12:14]	DrFran Babcock	/me laughs
[12:14]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I want to know if that can be changed.
[12:14]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	nice to see it's non-discriminatory I suppose~
[12:18]	Motor Loon	yes it slowed back down
[12:18]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Like 0.5 fps.
[12:18]	Tiberious Neruda	....alright. I'll leave it off for now
[12:18]	Motor Loon	and fps is back up also
[12:18]	Vincent Nacon	yeah I'm not seeing the visual glitches anymore
[12:19]	Nyx Linden	ok once again :)
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	wb Nyx
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon	wb
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda	I think it was my rigged mesh causing it. I apologize
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon	yeah, you're forgiven
[12:19]	Motor Loon	if it did it's a bug °͜°
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda	(it's not supposed to do that)
[12:19]	Vincent Nacon	aye
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	I don't think we currently have any plans to make such a change, but I can ask around to see what opinions are on the matter. Thanks for bringing it up!
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon	I don't think skinning on Mesh has been ironed out yet
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon	cause I had some issue with it
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Great. Thanks Nyx. :)
[12:20]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Can't you make a really big triangle with a separate material that you make invisible?
[12:20]	Vincent Nacon	anyway... carry on, Nyx
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah"
[12:20]	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1800
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	is that the right jira #?
[12:21]	Motor Loon	cant be eh °͜°
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon	doubt it
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda	but that takes up another material slot. We only get 8, and sometimes, we need every one we can get
[12:21]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Oops wrong JIRA SNOW-1800
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon	can't see
[12:21]	Vincent Nacon	wrong one again?
[12:22]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	STORM-1800?
[12:22]	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1800
[12:22]	Tiberious Neruda	that sounds like it
[12:22]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	yep... I need my blond hair
[12:23]	Motor Loon	hm... that might be hard to do and still keep compatibility with current skins and clothing?
[12:23]	Nyx Linden	to my knowledge, we don't have a project planned around this. We would definitely need to be very careful about backwards compatibility here
[12:23]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Motor, shouldn't be. Might kill of v1 viewers for good though, if the new avatar requires a mesh viewer.
[12:24]	Vincent Nacon	speaking of which... wait for the other topic that I added
[12:24]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Actually, it should make old clothing look even better as well.
[12:24]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	We have been evaluating one weighting tweak from the open source community, might consider others. As nyx says, avoiding breaking compatibility is a big concern.
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	The coming problem is some mesh clothes problems are based in avatar mesh problems. I expect there to be more interst in 1800
[12:25]	lucasyori2001	su
[12:25]	Nyx Linden	definitely good to note that the two are related
[12:25]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	It's just the weights that has changed, not the number of faces. So, old clothing SHOULD look better too.
[12:25]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	I appreciate the concern. I am hoping small things can improve the avatar.
[12:25]	Tiberious Neruda	but doesn't STORM-1800 simply want to fix the vertices that are already there?
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes Tiberious
[12:25]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Yeah.
[12:25]	Nyx Linden	storm 1800 sounds like a weighting issue, which would affect the shape but not the geometry, if I'm reading correctly
[12:25]	lucasyori2001	sobe
[12:26]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	That wouldn't hurt clothing layers.
[12:26]	lucasyori2001	beija
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon	it would hurt the rigged mesh outfits
[12:26]	Rusalka Writer	Just put the correct feet on the correct legs.
[12:26]	Vincent Nacon	maybe
[12:26]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Might be harder to fit some sculptie parts, I guess. I don't know.
[12:26]	Tiberious Neruda	yeah. It would make the avatar's weighting symmetric between left and right
[12:26]	Nyx Linden	but it would be a change to the shape, and some creators could rely on very specific behavior of that poor weighting. It may be possible to make good tweaks, but its just something to be cautious of.
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	I'm not sure if weighting affects the Defromer. So, some what to move some vertices around and carefully add some at key points. How many can be added or moved will affect compatibility.
[12:27]	Motor Loon	Mabye offer an alternative avatar with the "normal" one still able to be used
[12:27]	Motor Loon	whispers: ?
[12:27]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Anything that changes shape could cause problems for attachments, etc. I'm not saying it could never happen, but we have to be very paranoid about compatibility.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	that gets to topic 8, so we should probably move on :)
[12:27]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	You should be able to add faces if you are careful to make a new UV.unwrap cover the same area.
[12:27]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	k
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon"
[12:28]	Motor Loon	yaay
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Yaaaaay!
[12:28]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	lol
[12:28]	Rusalka Writer	Pony.
[12:28]	Vincent Nacon	can I answer that for you, Nyx?
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon	Motor, don't make me slap you!
[12:29]	Motor Loon	no vincent.. coz you're a grumpy meaning
[12:29]	Motor Loon	meanie
[12:29]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	seems like a lot of things like this could be rolled into their own avatar project
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon	muhaha!
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	+1 Motor
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon	oh sure... say a guy who look bigger and tougher than me
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon	in dark outfit
[12:30]	Nyx Linden	we don't currently don't have this work scheduled, but I'll make a note that its still a high priority for our creators
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon	ahhhh he crashed again?
[12:30]	Motor Loon	pfft I'm just a little butterfly
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon	oh n/m
[12:30]	Motor Loon	it is ... yaay... he didnt say no... yaay...
[12:30]	Nyx Linden	so many more features to work on than we have hours in the day to do the work :)
[12:30]	Vincent Nacon	in other words.... just chill and wait
[12:30]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Any fun ones you can talk about ?
[12:30]	Motor Loon	so hire more dev's... you guys make enough to do it °͜°
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	we do have a couple of dev positions open on our jobs page..... :D
[12:31]	Motor Loon	see... problem solved
[12:31]	DrFran Babcock	Nal wants a scoop!
[12:31]	Vincent Nacon	but Motor... hiring more dev would means they'd need to be educated about how SL works and their workflow... could take a while
[12:31]	Motor Loon	"Devs wanted to make all Motors dreams come true"
[12:31]	Tiberious Neruda	speaking of points that have been talked about...
[12:31]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Dr :p
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	alright, keeping moving so we can get to all the topics
[12:32]	Motor Loon	nah... just show'em the coke machine and they'll be fine.... I know how dev's work
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda	...what's the latest on getting attachment point offsets recognized by the importer?
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon	next
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	If I take a job they'll NDA me to shut me up :(
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	next: "Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon"
[12:32]	Vincent Nacon	oy...
[12:32]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	I'll take a job at LL? :p
[12:32]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	I think Falcon has it on the ADITI grid but I'm not sure.
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon	not yet
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	the accounting changes are being tested in the pathfinding testing, I don't have more detail on exactly where to test the latest version of the code
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon	it's on the next roll
[12:33]	Motor Loon	on the PF regions mabye?
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon	Where?
[12:33]	Rusalka Writer	This can only go well.
[12:33]	Motor Loon	kk... I'll annoy Falcon about it when I see him then
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Drongle, ask Andrew or Falcon. They are most likely to know.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	falcon certainly should know
[12:33]	Vincent Nacon	wait... Motor, you were at the meeting in Pathfinding
[12:34]	Motor Loon	yes but it wasnt active there
[12:34]	Motor Loon	not with the recent changes and all
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon	right... but Falcon mentioned about when
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	the recent changes were proposals, they take time to code and deploy :)
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	They have transcripts for PFUG up now. Check the User Groups page.
[12:34]	Motor Loon	did he?... I must have been looking at someone's boobs then
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon	yup
[12:34]	Vincent Nacon	:P
[12:35]	Nyx Linden	alright, so next topic: "What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon"
[12:35]	Motor Loon	Just do what Tiberious do
[12:35]	Motor Loon	crash em
[12:35]	Motor Loon	°͜°
[12:35]	Rusalka Writer	Win.
[12:35]	Nyx Linden	we don't have a formal process, but informally I would find an appropriate usergroup or linden to discuss the specifc issue with - it depends on what jira it is.
[12:36]	Pamela Galli	I thought you could just reopen it
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon	Do you normally go on reading them after vthey are closed?
[12:36]	Tiberious Neruda	lolololol
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon	I thought you got banned if you bre-opened them?
[12:36]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	When they close it saying "too little information" I usually add more information and reopen it.
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon	*re-opened
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon	only if it was a stupid reason to re-open it
[12:37]	Nyx Linden	feel free to PM me a link to the issue and I'll look into it. Otherwise Oz should know who is the correct linden to talk to.
[12:37]	Second Life	Endo Gladry (jes.cobalt) is now known as Flippin'.
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon	I guess I'll try the server meeting first.
[12:38]	Motor Loon	this an jira we can see Drongle?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	ok, I'll follow up offline about that
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell"
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon	I don't want to start an argument.
[12:40]	Vincent Nacon	then quit it
[12:40]	Vincent Nacon	:P
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	that sounds like a rather annoying bug - can we get a logfile and/or a jira?
[12:40]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	There is a new bug with MS Skydrives causeing a crash on image upload.
[12:40]	Motor Loon	crushed viewer?
[12:41]	Rusalka Writer	Sounds like an old bug I used to enjoy.
[12:41]	Tobias Novi	how about to tell WHERE the log file hides
[12:41]	Motor Loon	sounds pretty bad
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	VWR-28843
[12:41]	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28843
[12:41]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Help#Where_do_I_find_my_SecondLife.log_file.3F
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	its slightly different on each OS, but that wiki page gives you the location for your system
[12:42]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Oh skydrive!
[12:42]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	I just use it.
[12:42]	Tobias Novi	i searched there 100 times but there never was anything
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Which OS are you running Yuz?
[12:42]	Drongle McMahon	What's a skydrive?
[12:42]	Vincent Nacon	like a web host
[12:43]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	cloud file hosting.
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Cloud storage for free.
[12:43]	Vincent Nacon	or iCloud
[12:43]	Motor Loon	like a harddisk not in your computer but on the internet
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	7 64bit
[12:43]	Vincent Nacon	cloud.... I hate that word.... it's just a web host really
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	aha, sounds like that may be the issue then?
[12:43]	Drongle McMahon	You give your files to Microsoft?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	good to know that we already have a report for that
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Latif found a fix for Win7 64... but Win7 32 and 64 see it.
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Drongle, you doubt MS's motives?
[12:44]	Vincent Nacon	pretty much so, Drongle
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Ok, I uninstall skydrive, and check it.
[12:44]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Yuz, read the JIRA Latif tells how to fix.
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon	No doubts.
[12:44]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	I use it only public file.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden	sounds like we know where to check for debugging info - thanks for bringing it up
[12:45]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Thank you.
[12:45]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 -- ‚Ç™ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:45]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	oh boy
[12:45]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	lol....
[12:45]	Motor Loon	I'm kinda happy with avatar 1.0 still
[12:45]	Tobias Novi	did something change with the physics cost calculation? if the mesh uploader calculates physics at 0.6 , the physic cost should be at 0.6 after enabling it and not at 8.0 ?
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon	sounds like maybe Skydrive have some packet data load with the file to treat differently from typical "download"
[12:46]	Nyx Linden	answer: yep I have no shortage of opinions on avatar 2.0. Thanks for asking! next topic :)
[12:46]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Hah
[12:46]	Motor Loon	lmao
[12:46]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	hahaha oh wow
[12:46]	Motor Loon	funny little robot
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon	just let you know, that question was actually meant for the people here than just for the Lindens.
[12:46]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	that's great
[12:46]	Vincent Nacon	:P
[12:46]	Rusalka Writer	With the proprietary armature, there's no real way we can do 2.0.
[12:47]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	well, with Avatar 2.0, you run into a lot of problems with regards to existing content; not necessarily breaking it mind you, but how it'd have to be adapted
[12:47]	Vincent Nacon	sure there is
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer	About the custom armatures...
[12:47]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Nyx's pasted link didn't work for me. This right? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:47]	Vincent Nacon	yup
[12:47]	Motor Loon	what excactly is it you want to do with avatar 2.0 that you can't do with avatar 1.0 ?
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer	Look nice.
[12:47]	Motor Loon	I look awesome already
[12:47]	Rusalka Writer	Right foot on right leg.
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer	No funnel chest.
[12:48]	Tiberious Neruda	...avatar 2.0 would REALLY have to improve upon 1.0 for me to get behind it. We'd need: asymmetric arm/leg texturing, finger bones, face bones, and other similar improvements
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon	more control on clothes layer, animation expansion, etc etc
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon	yeah, it's all in there
[12:48]	Rusalka Writer	No jazz hands.
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	avatar 2.0 (like web 2.0) is a nebulous project that can mean many things to many people. currently we don't have a project team focused on such a project, so anything I could say about it would be speculation just as much as anyone else
[12:48]	Vincent Nacon	even suggestion for extra bones for extra limbs
[12:48]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	Avatar 2.0 would be a pretty large can of worms
[12:48]	Motor Loon	sounds like just alot of extra lag for everybody
[12:48]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	The ability to easily make more alien shapes would be one, with more limbs and joints
[12:49]	Vincent Nacon	like tails and or another pair of arms
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer	"Limbs?"
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer	Sure.
[12:49]	Motor Loon	yeah... we need that... more aliens in SL... ,-)
[12:49]	Drongle McMahon	Why not arbitrary skeletons first? Then you can make any avatars you like?
[12:49]	Rusalka Writer	Pony.
[12:49]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Also, this choose between Male or female bugs me. Would make much more sense to have a slider for that. Then there would be a lot more room for creativity.
[12:49]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	it'd probably be more productive to focus on how rigged meshes could be enhanced
[12:49]	Vincent Nacon	also face expression through animation than typical pre-set of faces
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda	and maybe a 'free-swinging' bone chain for those of us who'd want tails and flowing hair that wouldn't need animations to make move
[12:50]	Motor Loon	Sparklepony
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer	Ooooh...
[12:50]	Vincent Nacon	hair
[12:50]	Vincent Nacon	shader mapping
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer	The meeting, she is out of control.
[12:50]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	let's move on
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	I have seen the shiny robot-ponies of the future, and they are glorious.
[12:50]	Rusalka Writer	*sob*
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol Nyx
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon	the point is, would like to have more thoughts into it as it has been sitting their for a while
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon	there*
[12:51]	Drongle McMahon	Who needs ponies when you can have squids?
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	feel free to add more topics to discuss things in more specific terms, but I want to make sure we have time for the next two topics
[12:51]	Rusalka Writer	There is that...
[12:51]	Vivienne Daguerre	perhaps you should call a meeting of your own to get that input Vincent.
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome"
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda	(I really think that would be the best way to make a fleximesh that would be less viewer-intensive)
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon	yeahhh....
[12:51]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	three topics :p
[12:51]	Vincent Nacon	I've tried
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda	umm, what do you mean body deformers?
[12:52]	Vincent Nacon	joint position?
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda	like... joint-offsetting meshes?
[12:52]	Nyx Linden	do you have a specific reproduction of the issue? a video capturing the bad behavior?
[12:52]	Motor Loon	please continue rambling while I get coffee so I dont miss anything important...
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Qarl's deformer?
[12:52]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Uhm. Happens to the petites a lot.
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda	hmm
[12:52]	Vincent Nacon	you mean the hips?
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	sounds like they're not wearing the avs right
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon	because the hips does change the joint position
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon	in the width, that is
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	I've noticed that unless you use Add, you'll end up deformed if you try to take it off
[12:53]	Vincent Nacon	shoulders too, also
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda	and if you happen to wear two meshes that use joint offsets, that will do it too
[12:54]	Vincent Nacon	or collars as it's labeled that way in bone
[12:54]	Nyx Linden	sounds buggy. If you can figure out a way to reliably reproduce it and can capture a video of the behavior, please do send in a bug report
[12:54]	Vincent Nacon	yeah
[12:54]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	When I change back from this avatar, The eyes often come on wrong.
[12:54]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	See?
[12:54]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Bulging eyes.
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda	Nyx, I wrote up a notecard that details how to work around the bugs
[12:55]	Motor Loon	eyes look good to me
[12:55]	Motor Loon	mabye local?
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon	Davido, that glitch isn't server side
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon	it's randomly on some viewers
[12:55]	Vincent Nacon	so you may see it wrong but I see you fine
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	please do send in more detailed information and we'll take a look at it :)
[12:55]	Tiberious Neruda	if I follow the steps, I never get deformed
[12:55]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Eyes look ok to me Alve
[12:55]	√ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Ok. Thank you. :)
[12:55]	Motor Loon	next!
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon"
[12:56]	Motor Loon	Oh... thats a GREAT idea!
[12:56]	Motor Loon	°͜°
[12:56]	Rusalka Writer	Lol...
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	you can leave out LODs if you don't want to use them, none is an acceptable option for lower LODs, the next highest LOD will be used.
[12:56]	Pamela Galli	agree
[12:56]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	lol
[12:56]	Motor Loon	no thats not quite true
[12:56]	Vincent Nacon	don't.... make .... me....
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	or are you asking for the entire object to disappear?
[12:56]	Motor Loon	yes
[12:56]	Pamela Galli	yes
[12:56]	Motor Loon	at he lowest LOD for example
[12:56]	Tiberious Neruda	the entire object to disappear visually
[12:57]	Motor Loon	no single fugly triangle left behind
[12:57]	Pamela Galli	Rather have nothing than a triangle for sure
[12:57]	Motor Loon	could be used on higher LODs too... like...
[12:57]	Motor Loon	funiture inside a small room
[12:57]	Motor Loon	they dont need LOD at all
[12:57]	Motor Loon	but look thru the windows
[12:57]	Motor Loon	and you see a room full of ugly triangles
[12:57]	Nyx Linden	it would be much better behavior to make the lowest LOD be the most simple representation of the object possible
[12:57]	Motor Loon	better invisible
[12:58]	Motor Loon	yes
[12:58]	Motor Loon	can we have it?
[12:58]	Motor Loon	please...
[12:58]	Vincent Nacon	Nyx, want they want to do was kill prim count
[12:58]	Nyx Linden	two triangles for a flat sprite, or a box for example
[12:58]	Tiberious Neruda	Nyx
[12:58]	Drongle McMahon	I like the invisible idea too.
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer	Invisible gets my vote.
[12:58]	Motor Loon	I dont care if it still "counts" as several triangles
[12:58]	Motor Loon	aslong as I dont have to see them
[12:58]	Tiberious Neruda	the problem with that is that it takes up another material spot, and you'd have to have a triangle with the 'solid' matrial on that lowest LOD, or else the uploader complains
[12:59]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Howabout having Sprite, peroiod, as a lowwest LOD option?
[12:59]	Vincent Nacon	can't you just stick it on a ID#8 with full alpha?
[12:59]	Tobias Novi	invisible , lowest possible aperiance is most likely way more LI
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre	for some items that makes sense. Like a hair brush on a table inside a house. Back off far enough, does not matter if it disappears
[12:59]	Motor Loon	yeah no workarounds with materials
[12:59]	Motor Loon	I need those °͜°
[12:59]	Nyx Linden	or have a corner of one of your materials be a small invisible section, and use UV mapping
[12:59]	Motor Loon	all of them
[12:59]	Drongle McMahon	The problem with the triangle is that it has to be as big as the mesh and can look bad, or waste a texture to be invisible.
[12:59]	Vincent Nacon	true
[12:59]	Tobias Novi	spending one material spot for that ???
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	What if the person is already using 8 materials.
[12:59]	Tiberious Neruda	again, no go, Nyx. If any part of the texture is alpha, the whole texture is alpha and thus subject to the alpha sorting bug
[12:59]	Nyx Linden	you shouldn't need a separate texture to make something invisible, just a few texels on a texture you're already using
[12:59]	Tobias Novi	thats a typical LL fix sorry
[13:00]	Vincent Nacon	or just have the triangle facing away from typical view
[13:00]	Motor Loon	no... just make it invisible... problem solved
[13:00]	Vincent Nacon	like... toward the ground
[13:00]	Nyx Linden	honestly we don't have cycles to look at this anytime soon
[13:00]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	sounds like there should be a means to flag if a surface really needs alpha blending or not :P
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Nyx: He is talking about auto-generated LODs not custom LODs.
[13:00]	Motor Loon	yes, autogenerated stuff
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon	or a drop down menu to pick "none"
[13:01]	Motor Loon	yep
[13:01]	Drongle McMahon	Extra choice = "Nothing"
[13:01]	Motor Loon	simple as that
[13:01]	Motor Loon	I'd love it!
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon	I can see some use for it
[13:01]	Tiberious Neruda	or better, 'Don't Render'
[13:01]	Motor Loon	yes
[13:01]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Yes!
[13:01]	Rusalka Writer	"Don't Bother."
[13:01]	Motor Loon	dont render = great for resource use and lag
[13:01]	Tobias Novi	don't render souns fairly good
[13:01]	Drongle McMahon	DNR
[13:01]	Motor Loon	°͜°
[13:01]	Vincent Nacon	Fuggetabutit
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer	As in, don't bother, will suck.
[13:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Tiberious: If you use a separate texture with alpha for just the LOD. You won't get the alpha glitch in your other LODs.
[13:02]	Tiberious Neruda	Asha: but that takes up a material slot
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	anyways we're over time - need to move on to the last topic
[13:02]	Vincent Nacon	next!
[13:02]	Rusalka Writer	Reverse the normals.
[13:02]	Tiberious Neruda	and your lowest LOD will require that material there
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	next: "I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]"
[13:02]	Tobias Novi	but why set a extra material just for hiding a ugly triangle
[13:02]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Rusalka, you will see the other side of it. XD
[13:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes, it isn't usually a problem for most items.
[13:03]	Tobias Novi	just don't render 3 vertices
[13:03]	Rusalka Writer	Dang.
[13:03]	Nyx Linden	<3 having example meshes to go with discussions of cost calculations!
[13:03]	Motor Loon	I think the real question here is... should this arch really be 36 prim anyway?
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	This last item I present as more of an observation, results of an experiment, that if not an error can give us another tool to lower prim count.
[13:03]	Motor Loon	°͜°
[13:03]	Nyx Linden	I'll have to spend some time looking at them in more detail to figure out what is going on here
[13:03]	Nyx Linden	could I get copies of the arches please?
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	in this case smaller is better! :D
[13:03]	Vincent Nacon	they're not the same.... I mean one has vines on it
[13:03]	Vivienne Daguerre	and yes it should be, it is only 1032 triangles at the the highest LOD.
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre	the vines are on the lower one, I can take those off
[13:04]	Drongle McMahon	The physics cost of the 36-prim one is exactly half of the 55 prim one!
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre	there you go, vines gone and now it is only 35 prims
[13:04]	Drongle McMahon	Are they both triangles or decomposed?
[13:04]	Vivienne Daguerre	and I used the same physics shape collada file
[13:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Something 1032 triangles came in at 36 prims? O.o
[13:05]	Nyx Linden	please send in copies of the arches and we'll take a look at it :)
[13:05]	Tobias Novi	however you turn it even 35 is WAY to much for what it is
[13:05]	Drongle McMahon	If decomposed, was the number ov hulls & verts the same?
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	cannot recall
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	just seems very very odd to me
[13:05]	Tobias Novi	how you want to atract ppl to meshes if a arche has 35 prims
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	I don't think I decomposed it
[13:05]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	Extra bonus topic: from a few weeks back:
[13:05]	Rusalka Writer	Yep.
[13:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	it is large
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	"For a simple mesh, triangles in the same mesh and with the same material, when textured with a transparent texture, appear to be rendered in the order the triangles appear in the collada file. This can be used to vercome the alpha-sorting-glitch. Would it be correct to assume this is because the triangles are submitted to opengl in that order? If so, is the rendering code guaranteed to always submit triangles to opengl in the order they appear in the collada file, in particular for more complex meshes? Drongle McMahon"
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	I have an answer from davep:
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	The rendering order can and does change and is effectively undefined.
[13:06]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	So sorry, don't count on that behavior.
[13:06]	Motor Loon	err
[13:06]	Motor Loon	what?
[13:06]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	You need to divide by 4 on the number of vertices on each LOD to match a sculpty.. About.
[13:07]	Tiberious Neruda	we really would like some way to overcome this problem
[13:07]	Vivienne Daguerre	so the bottom line is, try it and you might get a lower prim result and be happy if you do.
[13:07]	Drongle McMahon	Hmm. I was afraid of that. Thanks for the answer though.
[13:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Oy.... that is not cool.
[13:08]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	I thinjk the primage of the arches would go down quite a lot if you made the physics shape with like, 8 cube prims.
[13:08]	Rusalka Writer	Mesh... the greatest undesireable technology ever. Avis excluded.
[13:08]	Pamela Galli	Vivienne I have and I do
[13:09]	Nyx Linden	alright thanks for coming out everyone
[13:09]	Motor Loon	noo mesh rocks ass
[13:09]	Vincent Nacon	aye
[13:09]	Vincent Nacon	take care all
[13:09]	Geenz Cat (geenz.spad)	'later Nyx
[13:09]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Thx Nyx and Vir
[13:09]	Vivienne Daguerre	Alve, tried that... had to use 12 to approximate the shape, and this worked better
[13:09]	Nyx Linden	see everyone next week!
[13:09]	Rusalka Writer	Oy.
[13:09]	Bazz Fazz (vir.linden)	bye folks
[13:09]	Pamela Galli	what about the LOD shape question?
[13:09]	Drongle McMahon	We know the physics weight can be reduced. That's not the point. The question is why they are different, because that may be important in other cases.
[13:09]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Thanks for the meeting Nyx and Vir.

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