Mesh/Archive/2012-05-07

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Agenda

  1. I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
  2. Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
  3. People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah
  4. What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon
  5. Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon
  6. What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon
  7. I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell
  8. Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 --Nacon-tag.jpg ₪ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)
  9. Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome
  10. When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon
  11. I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday May 7, 2012

[12:00] Nyx Linden greetings all
[12:01] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Hello hello
[12:01] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[12:01] Nyx Linden agenda is here, feel free to add topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:01] DrFran Babcock hello, Vir, everyone
[12:01] Rusalka Writer All-purpose squid!
[12:01] Pamela Galli Calamari
[12:01] Motor Loon very neat avi Rusalka
[12:02] Rusalka Writer Mahalo! Most kind.
[12:02] Nyx Linden we'll give everyone another minute or so to log in and then we'll get started
[12:02] Motor Loon (and tasty with hotsauce)
[12:02] Rusalka Writer Hey!
[12:02] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:02] Ƿʀίɳсєѕѕ Sοɑρɦу (sopherian.yumako) HAI2U!!!1!
[12:02] Rusalka Writer Calamari my dreams...
[12:02] Vivienne Daguerre while we do that, can I show you something odd?
[12:03] Motor Loon no it's not an adult region Vivi
[12:03] Vivienne Daguerre Arch A: Uploaded, adding the physics shape into the uploader, and setting prim type to prim so you can walk through the arch. 55 prims
[12:03] DrFran Babcock yes, walking through mesh is a mess.
[12:03] Vivienne Daguerre Arch B: Uploaded same collada file without setting physics, then uploaded the same physics mesh separately, linked them setting the physics mesh as the root and making it transparent, and then setting the higher prim mesh to none. Significant land impact savings. 36 prims
[12:04] Nyx Linden there's more space on the grassy hill on the other side of the meeting space for example content :)
[12:04] Vincent Nacon topic added
[12:04] Nyx Linden hrm very interesting. We shall have to get to that later :)
[12:04] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) rezzing things in the spot I usually stand D:
[12:04] Nyx Linden but for now, topic 1: "I've found (at least on the beta grid) that if you go ahead an upload despite the "different number of texturable faces" error, it will upload, but it removes the material id that isn't present in all the LODs. Is this expected behavior?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:05] Motor Loon Old viewer?
[12:05] Motor Loon Mine wont let me do that anymore...
[12:06] Vincent Nacon I believe that is expected behavior
[12:06] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ughh...did I miss the answer to my question?
[12:06] Pamela Galli Just read it out Asha
[12:06] Nyx Linden I think the intention was that lower LODs could use a subset of the materials from the highest LOD, but I'd have to double check the code to be certain. I'm not sure if its working correctly at the moment, so reproduction info is always appreciated.
[12:06] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ah ok great ^^
[12:07] Motor Loon You certainly shouldn't be able to upload that on the maingrid
[12:07] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ok then Nyx. Thanks.
[12:07] Vincent Nacon yeah, gotta have those same ID mat
[12:07] Motor Loon yeah
[12:07] Motor Loon oh oh... got something to add to the agenda
[12:07] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nyx; I just added a topic. Please refresh the agenda page?
[12:07] Vincent Nacon add it
[12:08] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Generally we want the viewer and server to have the same view of what's an error, but since those are implemented two different places they can get out of sync.
[12:08] Nyx Linden I refresh periodically :)
[12:08] Vincent Nacon wait... you didn't have any news, Nyx?
[12:08] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Details on a repro/example model would be helpfukl.
[12:08] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) helpful also
[12:08] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Will do Bazz
[12:09] Nyx Linden next topic: "Non-rigged worn mesh experiences LOD switches at a very fast rate. (I assume that rigged mesh doesn't because it switches at the same rate as the avatar?) Would it be possible to have non-rigged worn mesh have the same LOD switch rate as rigged mesh at some point?Ashasekayi Ra 00:10, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:09] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) /me checks the agenda
[12:09] Rusalka Writer I like this question.
[12:09] Nal (nalates.urriah) me too
[12:09] Drongle McMahon But Nyx. It's noty supposed to lose the textures on the high LOD mesh. See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28612
[12:09] JIRA-helper [#VWR-28612] Incorrect texture-face associations when low LOD meshes have subsets of high LOD materials. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:10] Vincent Nacon it switches very fast because it loads the lowest LOD and then works up the LOD to the highest as it loads the whole asset
[12:10] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ahh there is already a jira.
[12:10] Nyx Linden thanks drongle, I'm pretty sure the current implementation is not matching the intention at the moment :)
[12:10] Rusalka Writer Delicately phrased.
[12:10] Vincent Nacon aye
[12:11] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That isn't what I'm talking about Vincent.
[12:11] Nyx Linden that's one possibility - or is the LOD switching happening after the mesh fully loads?
[12:11] Nyx Linden based on zooming the camera in and out, I presume?
[12:11] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I mean that the switch is different. The switch for a non-rigged worn mesh happens like it would if it were rezzed.
[12:12] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Oh wait, it got better.
[12:12] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Nyx crashed already?
[12:13] DrFran Babcock well, I hope he can relog. It's been iffy
[12:13] Nyx Linden apologies, have a crash to hunt down apparently
[12:13] DrFran Babcock but, he's a Linden :-)
[12:13] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Heh.
[12:13] Tiberious Neruda I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass disabled logins
[12:13] Motor Loon I'd think Lindens would be able to bypass crashing °͜°
[12:14] Nyx Linden if I had to guess, I'd say that the attachment is likely switching LODs based on its size, like a normal in-world object, but rigged meshes are switching based on the size of the total avatar
[12:14] Nal (nalates.urriah) Crashes are ultimate non-discrimination app
[12:14] Nyx Linden crashing is an equal-opportunity feature!
[12:14] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Right. That was my guess.
[12:14] DrFran Babcock /me laughs
[12:14] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I want to know if that can be changed.
[12:14] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) nice to see it's non-discriminatory I suppose~
[12:18] Motor Loon yes it slowed back down
[12:18] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Like 0.5 fps.
[12:18] Tiberious Neruda ....alright. I'll leave it off for now
[12:18] Motor Loon and fps is back up also
[12:18] Vincent Nacon yeah I'm not seeing the visual glitches anymore
[12:19] Nyx Linden ok once again :)
[12:19] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) wb Nyx
[12:19] Vincent Nacon wb
[12:19] Tiberious Neruda I think it was my rigged mesh causing it. I apologize
[12:19] Vincent Nacon yeah, you're forgiven
[12:19] Motor Loon if it did it's a bug °͜°
[12:19] Tiberious Neruda (it's not supposed to do that)
[12:19] Vincent Nacon aye
[12:20] Nyx Linden I don't think we currently have any plans to make such a change, but I can ask around to see what opinions are on the matter. Thanks for bringing it up!
[12:20] Vincent Nacon I don't think skinning on Mesh has been ironed out yet
[12:20] Vincent Nacon cause I had some issue with it
[12:20] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Great. Thanks Nyx. :)
[12:20] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Can't you make a really big triangle with a separate material that you make invisible?
[12:20] Vincent Nacon anyway... carry on, Nyx
[12:20] Nyx Linden next topic: "People are looking at the current avatar and Qarl Fizz is pointing to the avatar as a part of the problem with mesh clothes that the Deformer is not going to be able to fix. VWR-1800 is becoming more popular. Is there anythin on the radar for at least some changes and/or tweaks to the avatar? Nalates Urriah"
[12:20] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1800
[12:21] Nyx Linden is that the right jira #?
[12:21] Motor Loon cant be eh °͜°
[12:21] Vincent Nacon doubt it
[12:21] Tiberious Neruda but that takes up another material slot. We only get 8, and sometimes, we need every one we can get
[12:21] Nal (nalates.urriah) Oops wrong JIRA SNOW-1800
[12:21] Vincent Nacon can't see
[12:21] Vincent Nacon wrong one again?
[12:22] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) STORM-1800?
[12:22] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1800
[12:22] Tiberious Neruda that sounds like it
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) yep... I need my blond hair
[12:23] Motor Loon hm... that might be hard to do and still keep compatibility with current skins and clothing?
[12:23] Nyx Linden to my knowledge, we don't have a project planned around this. We would definitely need to be very careful about backwards compatibility here
[12:23] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Motor, shouldn't be. Might kill of v1 viewers for good though, if the new avatar requires a mesh viewer.
[12:24] Vincent Nacon speaking of which... wait for the other topic that I added
[12:24] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Actually, it should make old clothing look even better as well.
[12:24] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) We have been evaluating one weighting tweak from the open source community, might consider others. As nyx says, avoiding breaking compatibility is a big concern.
[12:24] Nal (nalates.urriah) The coming problem is some mesh clothes problems are based in avatar mesh problems. I expect there to be more interst in 1800
[12:25] lucasyori2001 su
[12:25] Nyx Linden definitely good to note that the two are related
[12:25] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) It's just the weights that has changed, not the number of faces. So, old clothing SHOULD look better too.
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) I appreciate the concern. I am hoping small things can improve the avatar.
[12:25] Tiberious Neruda but doesn't STORM-1800 simply want to fix the vertices that are already there?
[12:25] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes Tiberious
[12:25] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yeah.
[12:25] Nyx Linden storm 1800 sounds like a weighting issue, which would affect the shape but not the geometry, if I'm reading correctly
[12:25] lucasyori2001 sobe
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That wouldn't hurt clothing layers.
[12:26] lucasyori2001 beija
[12:26] Vincent Nacon it would hurt the rigged mesh outfits
[12:26] Rusalka Writer Just put the correct feet on the correct legs.
[12:26] Vincent Nacon maybe
[12:26] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Might be harder to fit some sculptie parts, I guess. I don't know.
[12:26] Tiberious Neruda yeah. It would make the avatar's weighting symmetric between left and right
[12:26] Nyx Linden but it would be a change to the shape, and some creators could rely on very specific behavior of that poor weighting. It may be possible to make good tweaks, but its just something to be cautious of.
[12:27] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'm not sure if weighting affects the Defromer. So, some what to move some vertices around and carefully add some at key points. How many can be added or moved will affect compatibility.
[12:27] Motor Loon Mabye offer an alternative avatar with the "normal" one still able to be used
[12:27] Motor Loon whispers: ?
[12:27] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Anything that changes shape could cause problems for attachments, etc. I'm not saying it could never happen, but we have to be very paranoid about compatibility.
[12:27] Nyx Linden that gets to topic 8, so we should probably move on :)
[12:27] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) You should be able to add faces if you are careful to make a new UV.unwrap cover the same area.
[12:27] Nal (nalates.urriah) k
[12:28] Nyx Linden next topic: "What do we want? custom pivots! when do we want them? noooow! Motor Loon"
[12:28] Motor Loon yaay
[12:28] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yaaaaay!
[12:28] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol
[12:28] Rusalka Writer Pony.
[12:28] Vincent Nacon can I answer that for you, Nyx?
[12:29] Vincent Nacon Motor, don't make me slap you!
[12:29] Motor Loon no vincent.. coz you're a grumpy meaning
[12:29] Motor Loon meanie
[12:29] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) seems like a lot of things like this could be rolled into their own avatar project
[12:29] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[12:29] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) +1 Motor
[12:29] Vincent Nacon oh sure... say a guy who look bigger and tougher than me
[12:29] Vincent Nacon in dark outfit
[12:30] Nyx Linden we don't currently don't have this work scheduled, but I'll make a note that its still a high priority for our creators
[12:30] Vincent Nacon ahhhh he crashed again?
[12:30] Motor Loon pfft I'm just a little butterfly
[12:30] Vincent Nacon oh n/m
[12:30] Motor Loon it is ... yaay... he didnt say no... yaay...
[12:30] Nyx Linden so many more features to work on than we have hours in the day to do the work :)
[12:30] Vincent Nacon in other words.... just chill and wait
[12:30] Nal (nalates.urriah) Any fun ones you can talk about ?
[12:30] Motor Loon so hire more dev's... you guys make enough to do it °͜°
[12:31] Nyx Linden we do have a couple of dev positions open on our jobs page..... :D
[12:31] Motor Loon see... problem solved
[12:31] DrFran Babcock Nal wants a scoop!
[12:31] Vincent Nacon but Motor... hiring more dev would means they'd need to be educated about how SL works and their workflow... could take a while
[12:31] Motor Loon "Devs wanted to make all Motors dreams come true"
[12:31] Tiberious Neruda speaking of points that have been talked about...
[12:31] Nal (nalates.urriah) Dr :p
[12:32] Nyx Linden alright, keeping moving so we can get to all the topics
[12:32] Motor Loon nah... just show'em the coke machine and they'll be fine.... I know how dev's work
[12:32] Tiberious Neruda ...what's the latest on getting attachment point offsets recognized by the importer?
[12:32] Vincent Nacon next
[12:32] Nal (nalates.urriah) If I take a job they'll NDA me to shut me up :(
[12:32] Nyx Linden next: "Where can I test the new mesh accounting? Motor Loon"
[12:32] Vincent Nacon oy...
[12:32] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) I'll take a job at LL? :p
[12:32] Nal (nalates.urriah) I think Falcon has it on the ADITI grid but I'm not sure.
[12:33] Vincent Nacon not yet
[12:33] Nyx Linden the accounting changes are being tested in the pathfinding testing, I don't have more detail on exactly where to test the latest version of the code
[12:33] Vincent Nacon it's on the next roll
[12:33] Motor Loon on the PF regions mabye?
[12:33] Drongle McMahon Where?
[12:33] Rusalka Writer This can only go well.
[12:33] Motor Loon kk... I'll annoy Falcon about it when I see him then
[12:33] Nal (nalates.urriah) Drongle, ask Andrew or Falcon. They are most likely to know.
[12:33] Nyx Linden falcon certainly should know
[12:33] Vincent Nacon wait... Motor, you were at the meeting in Pathfinding
[12:34] Motor Loon yes but it wasnt active there
[12:34] Motor Loon not with the recent changes and all
[12:34] Vincent Nacon right... but Falcon mentioned about when
[12:34] Nyx Linden the recent changes were proposals, they take time to code and deploy :)
[12:34] Nal (nalates.urriah) They have transcripts for PFUG up now. Check the User Groups page.
[12:34] Motor Loon did he?... I must have been looking at someone's boobs then
[12:34] Vincent Nacon yup
[12:34] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:35] Nyx Linden alright, so next topic: "What is the appropriate thing to do when you think a Linden has closed a jira for demonstrably incorrect reasons, and you thgink it needs proper attention? Drongle McMahon"
[12:35] Motor Loon Just do what Tiberious do
[12:35] Motor Loon crash em
[12:35] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:35] Rusalka Writer Win.
[12:35] Nyx Linden we don't have a formal process, but informally I would find an appropriate usergroup or linden to discuss the specifc issue with - it depends on what jira it is.
[12:36] Pamela Galli I thought you could just reopen it
[12:36] Drongle McMahon Do you normally go on reading them after vthey are closed?
[12:36] Tiberious Neruda lolololol
[12:36] Drongle McMahon I thought you got banned if you bre-opened them?
[12:36] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) When they close it saying "too little information" I usually add more information and reopen it.
[12:36] Drongle McMahon *re-opened
[12:36] Vincent Nacon only if it was a stupid reason to re-open it
[12:37] Nyx Linden feel free to PM me a link to the issue and I'll look into it. Otherwise Oz should know who is the correct linden to talk to.
[12:37] Second Life Endo Gladry (jes.cobalt) is now known as Flippin'.
[12:37] Drongle McMahon I guess I'll try the server meeting first.
[12:38] Motor Loon this an jira we can see Drongle?
[12:39] Nyx Linden ok, I'll follow up offline about that
[12:40] Nyx Linden next topic: "I can't upload image file and model. The viewer 3.3.1(254524) was crushed when I select the model/image on upload - build menu. When I reinstalled it, I can upload it only one time. Yuzuru Jewell"
[12:40] Drongle McMahon I don't want to start an argument.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon then quit it
[12:40] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:40] Nyx Linden that sounds like a rather annoying bug - can we get a logfile and/or a jira?
[12:40] Nal (nalates.urriah) There is a new bug with MS Skydrives causeing a crash on image upload.
[12:40] Motor Loon crushed viewer?
[12:41] Rusalka Writer Sounds like an old bug I used to enjoy.
[12:41] Tobias Novi how about to tell WHERE the log file hides
[12:41] Motor Loon sounds pretty bad
[12:41] Nal (nalates.urriah) VWR-28843
[12:41] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28843
[12:41] Nyx Linden http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Help#Where_do_I_find_my_SecondLife.log_file.3F
[12:42] Nyx Linden its slightly different on each OS, but that wiki page gives you the location for your system
[12:42] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Oh skydrive!
[12:42] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I just use it.
[12:42] Tobias Novi i searched there 100 times but there never was anything
[12:42] Nal (nalates.urriah) Which OS are you running Yuz?
[12:42] Drongle McMahon What's a skydrive?
[12:42] Vincent Nacon like a web host
[12:43] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) cloud file hosting.
[12:43] Nal (nalates.urriah) Cloud storage for free.
[12:43] Vincent Nacon or iCloud
[12:43] Motor Loon like a harddisk not in your computer but on the internet
[12:43] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) 7 64bit
[12:43] Vincent Nacon cloud.... I hate that word.... it's just a web host really
[12:43] Nyx Linden aha, sounds like that may be the issue then?
[12:43] Drongle McMahon You give your files to Microsoft?
[12:43] Nyx Linden good to know that we already have a report for that
[12:43] Nal (nalates.urriah) Latif found a fix for Win7 64... but Win7 32 and 64 see it.
[12:44] Nal (nalates.urriah) Drongle, you doubt MS's motives?
[12:44] Vincent Nacon pretty much so, Drongle
[12:44] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Ok, I uninstall skydrive, and check it.
[12:44] Nal (nalates.urriah) Yuz, read the JIRA Latif tells how to fix.
[12:44] Drongle McMahon No doubts.
[12:44] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I use it only public file.
[12:45] Nyx Linden sounds like we know where to check for debugging info - thanks for bringing it up
[12:45] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you.
[12:45] Nyx Linden next topic: "Opinion on Avatar 2.0 yet? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0 -- ‚Ç™ 12:04, 7 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:45] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) oh boy
[12:45] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol....
[12:45] Motor Loon I'm kinda happy with avatar 1.0 still
[12:45] Tobias Novi did something change with the physics cost calculation? if the mesh uploader calculates physics at 0.6 , the physic cost should be at 0.6 after enabling it and not at 8.0 ?
[12:46] Vincent Nacon sounds like maybe Skydrive have some packet data load with the file to treat differently from typical "download"
[12:46] Nyx Linden answer: yep I have no shortage of opinions on avatar 2.0. Thanks for asking! next topic :)
[12:46] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Hah
[12:46] Motor Loon lmao
[12:46] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) hahaha oh wow
[12:46] Motor Loon funny little robot
[12:46] Vincent Nacon just let you know, that question was actually meant for the people here than just for the Lindens.
[12:46] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) that's great
[12:46] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:46] Rusalka Writer With the proprietary armature, there's no real way we can do 2.0.
[12:47] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) well, with Avatar 2.0, you run into a lot of problems with regards to existing content; not necessarily breaking it mind you, but how it'd have to be adapted
[12:47] Vincent Nacon sure there is
[12:47] Rusalka Writer About the custom armatures...
[12:47] Nal (nalates.urriah) Nyx's pasted link didn't work for me. This right? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:47] Vincent Nacon yup
[12:47] Motor Loon what excactly is it you want to do with avatar 2.0 that you can't do with avatar 1.0 ?
[12:47] Rusalka Writer Look nice.
[12:47] Motor Loon I look awesome already
[12:47] Rusalka Writer Right foot on right leg.
[12:48] Rusalka Writer No funnel chest.
[12:48] Tiberious Neruda ...avatar 2.0 would REALLY have to improve upon 1.0 for me to get behind it. We'd need: asymmetric arm/leg texturing, finger bones, face bones, and other similar improvements
[12:48] Vincent Nacon more control on clothes layer, animation expansion, etc etc
[12:48] Vincent Nacon yeah, it's all in there
[12:48] Rusalka Writer No jazz hands.
[12:48] Nyx Linden avatar 2.0 (like web 2.0) is a nebulous project that can mean many things to many people. currently we don't have a project team focused on such a project, so anything I could say about it would be speculation just as much as anyone else
[12:48] Vincent Nacon even suggestion for extra bones for extra limbs
[12:48] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) Avatar 2.0 would be a pretty large can of worms
[12:48] Motor Loon sounds like just alot of extra lag for everybody
[12:48] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) The ability to easily make more alien shapes would be one, with more limbs and joints
[12:49] Vincent Nacon like tails and or another pair of arms
[12:49] Rusalka Writer "Limbs?"
[12:49] Rusalka Writer Sure.
[12:49] Motor Loon yeah... we need that... more aliens in SL... ,-)
[12:49] Drongle McMahon Why not arbitrary skeletons first? Then you can make any avatars you like?
[12:49] Rusalka Writer Pony.
[12:49] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Also, this choose between Male or female bugs me. Would make much more sense to have a slider for that. Then there would be a lot more room for creativity.
[12:49] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) it'd probably be more productive to focus on how rigged meshes could be enhanced
[12:49] Vincent Nacon also face expression through animation than typical pre-set of faces
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda and maybe a 'free-swinging' bone chain for those of us who'd want tails and flowing hair that wouldn't need animations to make move
[12:50] Motor Loon Sparklepony
[12:50] Rusalka Writer Ooooh...
[12:50] Vincent Nacon hair
[12:50] Vincent Nacon shader mapping
[12:50] Rusalka Writer The meeting, she is out of control.
[12:50] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) let's move on
[12:50] Nyx Linden I have seen the shiny robot-ponies of the future, and they are glorious.
[12:50] Rusalka Writer *sob*
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Nyx
[12:51] Vincent Nacon the point is, would like to have more thoughts into it as it has been sitting their for a while
[12:51] Vincent Nacon there*
[12:51] Drongle McMahon Who needs ponies when you can have squids?
[12:51] Nyx Linden feel free to add more topics to discuss things in more specific terms, but I want to make sure we have time for the next two topics
[12:51] Rusalka Writer There is that...
[12:51] Vivienne Daguerre perhaps you should call a meeting of your own to get that input Vincent.
[12:51] Nyx Linden next topic: "Body deformers, for mesh and non mesh avatars alike, tend to come on and off wrong until you relog. Oz told me this place was the best place for this question. Are there any plans for making deformers work with less glitches? - Davido Chrome"
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda (I really think that would be the best way to make a fleximesh that would be less viewer-intensive)
[12:51] Vincent Nacon yeahhh....
[12:51] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) three topics :p
[12:51] Vincent Nacon I've tried
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda umm, what do you mean body deformers?
[12:52] Vincent Nacon joint position?
[12:52] Tiberious Neruda like... joint-offsetting meshes?
[12:52] Nyx Linden do you have a specific reproduction of the issue? a video capturing the bad behavior?
[12:52] Motor Loon please continue rambling while I get coffee so I dont miss anything important...
[12:52] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Qarl's deformer?
[12:52] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Uhm. Happens to the petites a lot.
[12:52] Tiberious Neruda hmm
[12:52] Vincent Nacon you mean the hips?
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda sounds like they're not wearing the avs right
[12:53] Vincent Nacon because the hips does change the joint position
[12:53] Vincent Nacon in the width, that is
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda I've noticed that unless you use Add, you'll end up deformed if you try to take it off
[12:53] Vincent Nacon shoulders too, also
[12:54] Tiberious Neruda and if you happen to wear two meshes that use joint offsets, that will do it too
[12:54] Vincent Nacon or collars as it's labeled that way in bone
[12:54] Nyx Linden sounds buggy. If you can figure out a way to reliably reproduce it and can capture a video of the behavior, please do send in a bug report
[12:54] Vincent Nacon yeah
[12:54] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) When I change back from this avatar, The eyes often come on wrong.
[12:54] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) See?
[12:54] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Bulging eyes.
[12:54] Tiberious Neruda Nyx, I wrote up a notecard that details how to work around the bugs
[12:55] Motor Loon eyes look good to me
[12:55] Motor Loon mabye local?
[12:55] Vincent Nacon Davido, that glitch isn't server side
[12:55] Vincent Nacon it's randomly on some viewers
[12:55] Vincent Nacon so you may see it wrong but I see you fine
[12:55] Nyx Linden please do send in more detailed information and we'll take a look at it :)
[12:55] Tiberious Neruda if I follow the steps, I never get deformed
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) Eyes look ok to me Alve
[12:55] √ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome) Ok. Thank you. :)
[12:55] Motor Loon next!
[12:55] Nyx Linden next topic: "When we upload mesh, we might choose to "generate" the lowest LOD in the uploader... often we set it as low as possible - might it be possible instead of the silly triangle it may result to, to get an "invisible" setting intead... may well be the same number of triangles - but would be very nice to have it just go invisible instead of showing any of them? Motor Loon"
[12:56] Motor Loon Oh... thats a GREAT idea!
[12:56] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:56] Rusalka Writer Lol...
[12:56] Nyx Linden you can leave out LODs if you don't want to use them, none is an acceptable option for lower LODs, the next highest LOD will be used.
[12:56] Pamela Galli agree
[12:56] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol
[12:56] Motor Loon no thats not quite true
[12:56] Vincent Nacon don't.... make .... me....
[12:56] Nyx Linden or are you asking for the entire object to disappear?
[12:56] Motor Loon yes
[12:56] Pamela Galli yes
[12:56] Motor Loon at he lowest LOD for example
[12:56] Tiberious Neruda the entire object to disappear visually
[12:57] Motor Loon no single fugly triangle left behind
[12:57] Pamela Galli Rather have nothing than a triangle for sure
[12:57] Motor Loon could be used on higher LODs too... like...
[12:57] Motor Loon funiture inside a small room
[12:57] Motor Loon they dont need LOD at all
[12:57] Motor Loon but look thru the windows
[12:57] Motor Loon and you see a room full of ugly triangles
[12:57] Nyx Linden it would be much better behavior to make the lowest LOD be the most simple representation of the object possible
[12:57] Motor Loon better invisible
[12:58] Motor Loon yes
[12:58] Motor Loon can we have it?
[12:58] Motor Loon please...
[12:58] Vincent Nacon Nyx, want they want to do was kill prim count
[12:58] Nyx Linden two triangles for a flat sprite, or a box for example
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda Nyx
[12:58] Drongle McMahon I like the invisible idea too.
[12:58] Rusalka Writer Invisible gets my vote.
[12:58] Motor Loon I dont care if it still "counts" as several triangles
[12:58] Motor Loon aslong as I dont have to see them
[12:58] Tiberious Neruda the problem with that is that it takes up another material spot, and you'd have to have a triangle with the 'solid' matrial on that lowest LOD, or else the uploader complains
[12:59] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Howabout having Sprite, peroiod, as a lowwest LOD option?
[12:59] Vincent Nacon can't you just stick it on a ID#8 with full alpha?
[12:59] Tobias Novi invisible , lowest possible aperiance is most likely way more LI
[12:59] Vivienne Daguerre for some items that makes sense. Like a hair brush on a table inside a house. Back off far enough, does not matter if it disappears
[12:59] Motor Loon yeah no workarounds with materials
[12:59] Motor Loon I need those °͜°
[12:59] Nyx Linden or have a corner of one of your materials be a small invisible section, and use UV mapping
[12:59] Motor Loon all of them
[12:59] Drongle McMahon The problem with the triangle is that it has to be as big as the mesh and can look bad, or waste a texture to be invisible.
[12:59] Vincent Nacon true
[12:59] Tobias Novi spending one material spot for that ???
[12:59] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) What if the person is already using 8 materials.
[12:59] Tiberious Neruda again, no go, Nyx. If any part of the texture is alpha, the whole texture is alpha and thus subject to the alpha sorting bug
[12:59] Nyx Linden you shouldn't need a separate texture to make something invisible, just a few texels on a texture you're already using
[12:59] Tobias Novi thats a typical LL fix sorry
[13:00] Vincent Nacon or just have the triangle facing away from typical view
[13:00] Motor Loon no... just make it invisible... problem solved
[13:00] Vincent Nacon like... toward the ground
[13:00] Nyx Linden honestly we don't have cycles to look at this anytime soon
[13:00] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) sounds like there should be a means to flag if a surface really needs alpha blending or not :P
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Nyx: He is talking about auto-generated LODs not custom LODs.
[13:00] Motor Loon yes, autogenerated stuff
[13:01] Vincent Nacon or a drop down menu to pick "none"
[13:01] Motor Loon yep
[13:01] Drongle McMahon Extra choice = "Nothing"
[13:01] Motor Loon simple as that
[13:01] Motor Loon I'd love it!
[13:01] Vincent Nacon I can see some use for it
[13:01] Tiberious Neruda or better, 'Don't Render'
[13:01] Motor Loon yes
[13:01] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yes!
[13:01] Rusalka Writer "Don't Bother."
[13:01] Motor Loon dont render = great for resource use and lag
[13:01] Tobias Novi don't render souns fairly good
[13:01] Drongle McMahon DNR
[13:01] Motor Loon °͜°
[13:01] Vincent Nacon Fuggetabutit
[13:02] Rusalka Writer As in, don't bother, will suck.
[13:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Tiberious: If you use a separate texture with alpha for just the LOD. You won't get the alpha glitch in your other LODs.
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda Asha: but that takes up a material slot
[13:02] Nyx Linden anyways we're over time - need to move on to the last topic
[13:02] Vincent Nacon next!
[13:02] Rusalka Writer Reverse the normals.
[13:02] Tiberious Neruda and your lowest LOD will require that material there
[13:02] Nyx Linden next: "I have rezzed two arches, using both the same low poly collada file and the same lower poly physics shape collada file. On the first one, the 55 prim one, I uploaded in the normal way, attaching the physics file on the uploader. On the second one, the 36 prim one with Ivy, I uploaded the low poly collada file first with no physics shape. Then I uploaded the same physics shape collada file separately, made it transparent and linked it with the low poly collada file. I then set the physics shape to be "prim" and the other to be "none". I can walk through both arches, and the detail and LODs are the same, but one is significantly lower prim. Does this represent some problem in how land impact is being calcualted on physical meshes? Does it suggest a desired method to have lower prim physical mesh? [Vivienne Daguerre]"
[13:02] Tobias Novi but why set a extra material just for hiding a ugly triangle
[13:02] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Rusalka, you will see the other side of it. XD
[13:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes, it isn't usually a problem for most items.
[13:03] Tobias Novi just don't render 3 vertices
[13:03] Rusalka Writer Dang.
[13:03] Nyx Linden <3 having example meshes to go with discussions of cost calculations!
[13:03] Motor Loon I think the real question here is... should this arch really be 36 prim anyway?
[13:03] Vivienne Daguerre This last item I present as more of an observation, results of an experiment, that if not an error can give us another tool to lower prim count.
[13:03] Motor Loon °͜°
[13:03] Nyx Linden I'll have to spend some time looking at them in more detail to figure out what is going on here
[13:03] Nyx Linden could I get copies of the arches please?
[13:03] Vivienne Daguerre in this case smaller is better! :D
[13:03] Vincent Nacon they're not the same.... I mean one has vines on it
[13:03] Vivienne Daguerre and yes it should be, it is only 1032 triangles at the the highest LOD.
[13:04] Vivienne Daguerre the vines are on the lower one, I can take those off
[13:04] Drongle McMahon The physics cost of the 36-prim one is exactly half of the 55 prim one!
[13:04] Vivienne Daguerre there you go, vines gone and now it is only 35 prims
[13:04] Drongle McMahon Are they both triangles or decomposed?
[13:04] Vivienne Daguerre and I used the same physics shape collada file
[13:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Something 1032 triangles came in at 36 prims? O.o
[13:05] Nyx Linden please send in copies of the arches and we'll take a look at it :)
[13:05] Tobias Novi however you turn it even 35 is WAY to much for what it is
[13:05] Drongle McMahon If decomposed, was the number ov hulls & verts the same?
[13:05] Vivienne Daguerre cannot recall
[13:05] Vivienne Daguerre just seems very very odd to me
[13:05] Tobias Novi how you want to atract ppl to meshes if a arche has 35 prims
[13:05] Vivienne Daguerre I don't think I decomposed it
[13:05] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Extra bonus topic: from a few weeks back:
[13:05] Rusalka Writer Yep.
[13:05] Vivienne Daguerre it is large
[13:06] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) "For a simple mesh, triangles in the same mesh and with the same material, when textured with a transparent texture, appear to be rendered in the order the triangles appear in the collada file. This can be used to vercome the alpha-sorting-glitch. Would it be correct to assume this is because the triangles are submitted to opengl in that order? If so, is the rendering code guaranteed to always submit triangles to opengl in the order they appear in the collada file, in particular for more complex meshes? Drongle McMahon"
[13:06] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) I have an answer from davep:
[13:06] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) The rendering order can and does change and is effectively undefined.
[13:06] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) So sorry, don't count on that behavior.
[13:06] Motor Loon err
[13:06] Motor Loon what?
[13:06] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) You need to divide by 4 on the number of vertices on each LOD to match a sculpty.. About.
[13:07] Tiberious Neruda we really would like some way to overcome this problem
[13:07] Vivienne Daguerre so the bottom line is, try it and you might get a lower prim result and be happy if you do.
[13:07] Drongle McMahon Hmm. I was afraid of that. Thanks for the answer though.
[13:07] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Oy.... that is not cool.
[13:08] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) I thinjk the primage of the arches would go down quite a lot if you made the physics shape with like, 8 cube prims.
[13:08] Rusalka Writer Mesh... the greatest undesireable technology ever. Avis excluded.
[13:08] Pamela Galli Vivienne I have and I do
[13:09] Nyx Linden alright thanks for coming out everyone
[13:09] Motor Loon noo mesh rocks ass
[13:09] Vincent Nacon aye
[13:09] Vincent Nacon take care all
[13:09] Geenz Cat (geenz.spad) 'later Nyx
[13:09] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx Nyx and Vir
[13:09] Vivienne Daguerre Alve, tried that... had to use 12 to approximate the shape, and this worked better
[13:09] Nyx Linden see everyone next week!
[13:09] Rusalka Writer Oy.
[13:09] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) bye folks
[13:09] Pamela Galli what about the LOD shape question?
[13:09] Drongle McMahon We know the physics weight can be reduced. That's not the point. The question is why they are different, because that may be important in other cases.
[13:09] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Thanks for the meeting Nyx and Vir.
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