User:Esbee Linden/Office Hours/2010-09-01

List of Attendees

Transcript

[08:01]	:	Hi everybody!
[08:01]	:	we must be dealing with an outrage
[08:01]	:	Hi Esbee
[08:01]	:	greetings
[08:01]	:	hi Esbee :)
[08:01]	:	hey Esbee
[08:02]	:	How's everyone doing?
[08:02]	:	hey
[08:02]	:	chaotically good
[08:02]		SandPile: Hi Esbee Linden! Say /1a to adjust your position. Touch me to change.
[08:02]	:	lol
[08:02]	:	:)
[08:02]	:	so so, but i'll survive
[08:02]	:	I found a way to misues your deck chair.
[08:02]	:	misuse
[08:02]	:	Nice :)
[08:03]	:	oh there you are
[08:03]	:	just checking, will this OH be in text?
[08:03]	:	So - yesterday the Snowstorm team started a new sprint. If anyone's interested, the Sprint Backlog can be found, here: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnxJWUubGIsodFVTa3NnZHJuamJ6NmNNMDNCbWU5MlE&hl=en
[08:04]	:	But for today, what I really wanted to talk about was Viewer ideas in general.
[08:04]	:	We have a few of our devs working on creating detachable side bar tabs.
[08:04]	:	i c a q and tufo comeing this way
[08:04]		Translator: icaq and tuff comeing this way
[08:04]	:	But I'm interested in what you'd like to see us do with Viewer 2 next? Are there bugs that have been driving you crazy for ages? UI tweaks you'd like to see?
[08:05]	:	Q!
[08:05]	:	will the sidebar tab come to the front when you click them?
[08:05]	:	Hi Q. Welcome!
[08:05]	:	with viewer 2 or the viewer in general?
[08:05]	:	/me votes for llTextBox, which appears to already be on the list
[08:05]	:	sorry bout that killed my translator
[08:05]	:	Good to see you virtually again :)
[08:05]	:	Hm Esbee, I think most would like to see more than "tweaks" in he UI
[08:05]	:	hi Q, good to see you back
[08:05]	:	Hi,, all!
[08:05]	:	Welcome Q
[08:05]	:	hey q :D
[08:05]	:	Hey Q, welcome back :)
[08:05]	:	I'm sorta back
[08:05]	:	o/ Q glad to see you doing better!
[08:05]	:	Latif - can you give me an example?
[08:05]	:	welcome to the land of the virtually living?
[08:06]	:	still working from home, but back sonn
[08:06]	:	soon
[08:06]	:	Can we make group IM toasts optional? I find them rather distracting.
[08:06]	:	Esbee, there are a number of problems with chat for instance. I wrote a short description about some of the most common
[08:06]	:	just a sec, let me dig it up
[08:07]	:	Ardy - That's a good suggestion. We probably need to think about adding a preference for that. Or maybe just considering the way we automatically opt users into group chat.
[08:07]	:	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2475353/viewer%20chat.pdf
[08:07]	:	Getting Snow-472 to work would help a lot of people with imbedded graphics chips -- my frame rate shoots way up because of that patch
[08:07]	:	I want to still get the group chat session but in history only.
[08:07]	:	group chats are extremely annoying
[08:07]	:	/me opens up Latif's viewer chat pdf
[08:07]	:	can be
[08:07]	:	Let the badge counter update but don't slap me with toast. :-)
[08:08]	:	having to open a seperate window by clicking the (i) next to someones name under the speakers list (for voice) seems awkward
[08:08]	:	What if you put the toast lifetime to 0?
[08:08]	:	I mean having to open a seperate window to adjust their volume
[08:08]	:	Kolipo, you can also just do it from an inspector, you don't have to open the speakers list.
[08:09]	:	inspector?
[08:09]	:	Just mouseover a person in the chat or inworld and click the little tooltip that pops open.
[08:09]	:	There's a volume aduster there.
[08:09]	:	*•.¸('*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´)¸
[08:09]	:	.•*♥`• AWESOME °• * ♥.
[08:09]	:	¸.•*(¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸)`*•.¸
[08:09]	:	Latif - This is a great proposal.
[08:09]	:	Sorry, trying to squish a bug on my kbd
[08:09]	:	those were not thought out well
[08:10]	:	The inspectors tend to close when I am trying to keep volume adjusted as people speak with very uneven levels.
[08:10]	:	that is difficult if people are moving around lots and chat is constantly streaming
[08:10]	:	Don't forget, you can access inspectors anywhere - I find them most helpful in the Nearby Chat list in the People panel.
[08:10]	:	Latif - Let's talk about chat focus for a minute.
[08:11]	:	yes, well it's pretty simple, i want an option for chat focus to be kept in the input line like it was in 1.xx
[08:11]	:	i don't care about WASD motion
[08:11]	:	Do you think other users care about WASD control?
[08:11]	:	i agree
[08:11]	:	/me cares
[08:11]	:	WASD can be reassigned
[08:11]	:	only a true gamer would
[08:12]	:	/me cares
[08:12]	:	very few care, but that's what I said about having an option to have 1.23 behaviour
[08:12]	:	at least before my left side went wonky
[08:12]	:	it should be an options in the menus
[08:12]	:	have it optional
[08:12]	:	ChatbarStealsFocus is broken in viewer2
[08:12]	:	vwr-17011
[08:12]	:	So this is an interesting point to bring up and one I deal with everyday.
[08:12]	:	I use WASD to move around but do understand the issue. V1.x was configurable to suit different needs.
[08:12]	:	vwr-17011
[08:12]		the option to keep focus on the chat bar!
[08:12]	:	everytime i talk to a customer i jump
[08:12]	:	We'll likely see a 50/50 split between people who'll say they need WASD control versus those who don't care.
[08:13]	:	nobody says kill WASD, but give us the option to kill it
[08:13]	:	gamers don't chat. Thats why they prefer the letter keys for movenment. They don't need to type anything.
[08:13]	:	and it been months and i'm not use to hitting enter yet
[08:13]	:	We can add more preferences, but they definitely feel a bit overloaded already.
[08:13]	:	it would be nice if there was an option to disable hveing to hit enter to be able to type in local
[08:13]	:	so i have a problem with too many options
[08:13]	:	Esbee, for me it's chatbarfocus or no viewer2
[08:13]	:	newbie almost never use wasd
[08:13]	:	ohh the thing that annoys me is how localchat isn't part of the communications/ims tab but not sure if that is just because I haven't configured it right
[08:13]	:	Esbee, this is one of the top 5 reasons people don't want to use viewer2, so your pick, reject the users or add the preference :)
[08:14]	:	Yeah. We definitely need to fix the "hit enter to return focus to chatbar" bug. That's a good one.
[08:14]	:	yeah
[08:14]	:	i think options are bad for users and bad for code quality
[08:14]	:	hit enter to return is different
[08:14]	:	I really hate jumping in the air when I sart to type
[08:14]	:	lol
[08:14]	:	The more options we add, the more complicated a code base we maintain - and the more confusing preferences will get.
[08:14]	:	Q, configurable UI is bad?
[08:14]	:	or going in to mouse lock
[08:14]	:	Hopefully Q was making a joke
[08:14]	:	lol
[08:14]	:	That is why the UI has to be completely seperable form the rendering part of the viewer.
[08:15]	:	Only if the options are done is spaggitti code format.
[08:15]	:	Not so you can have a multimode UI, but so you can have multiple ones to plug in
[08:15]	:	latif, yes - pluggable ui, with separate code paths is good
[08:15]	:	A pluggable UI would be awesome.
[08:15]	:	/me drools a little
[08:15]	:	For people who chat a lot, they want alphabetic keys to ONLY do chat - never anything else
[08:15]	:	but options with ui to control them fail because of test complexity
[08:15]	:	I have kind of been messing with that through using the log files and other files used by the viewer
[08:16]	:	Well I thought you wanted to bring more people into using Viewer 2. Obviously you have other concerns
[08:16]	:	and code and ui complexity
[08:16]	:	The test system can drive thew API dircetly, independent of key mappings
[08:16]	:	I thought you wanted that
[08:16]	:	latif, "make everything optional" is a copout
[08:16]	:	personally, i don't touch my keyboard unless i want to chat
[08:16]	:	you can't sustain that
[08:16]	:	i don't understand the reluctance to fix chatbar focus
[08:16]	:	Q so is forcing everyone to use what you think is best
[08:17]	:	and the numbers show that you got it wrong
[08:17]	:	that's not what i said, is it?
[08:17]	:	I think that's taking it a little too far.
[08:17]	:	chillax peoples
[08:17]	:	:)
[08:17]	:	We can't have an option for configuring every last feature and function in the Viewer.
[08:17]	:	well you ask what are the biggest hindranes to use viewer2
[08:17]	:	right Latif
[08:17]	:	wow that got almost as heated as sometimes it does on the forums !
[08:17]	:	We're not reluctant to fix focus - figuring it out is on this sprint
[08:17]	:	chat focus and keeping WASD is for many
[08:17]	:	No, but you can allow for multiple UI front-ends
[08:17]	:	We are not asking for 5,486 options. We are asking for maybe 2 here.
[08:18]	:	WASD is an alien concept for me
[08:18]	:	Esbee, all the emerald users have a differet say in that. re:can't have option for everything.
[08:18]	:	it's just not at all obvious what solution would make everyone happy, or even that a finite set of options could do so
[08:18]	:	there is another option...
[08:18]	:	WASD is an alien concept to me also
[08:18]	:	i was a gamer but i would never use it in SL
[08:18]	:	which makes it slightly more configurable by the user
[08:18]	:	which is to change the chat bar focus
[08:18]	:	to most SL users who are not hard core gamers WASD is an alien concept
[08:18]	:	Well, that's not really true. Chat focus is one thing. We just talked about an option for control of group chat toasts. :) I bet if I switch the subject to the Navigation Bar or Teleport History - there are a lot more options we'd all ask for. :)
[08:18]	:	Use Dzonatas' separable UI design.
[08:18]	:	Marigold have you ever played a mudd or mush?
[08:19]	:	most devs on the other hand are gamers, so there is a disconnect there
[08:19]	:	even gamers use the arrow keus
[08:19]	:	<- gamer
[08:19]	:	Even back when I did intensive swordplay RP, I never used WASD
[08:19]	:	It's also laptop users - I am on a laptop most of the time and so it's faster for me to use arrow keys to control my avatar.
[08:19]	:	I'm not a gamer.
[08:19]	:	Wolfpup
[08:19]	:	why is the a rifle on the floor?
[08:19]	:	*there
[08:20]	:	Boroondas - Good question :)
[08:20]	:	arrow keys are better due to one can't "shift" there fingers off by one key and mess up there movments.
[08:20]	:	I was afraid to ask :)
[08:20]	:	I guess I "play" my SL as a typist - that is to say thats how I use my keyboard
[08:20]	:	anyway, i get the desire - i'm pushing for us to really deeply consider whether ther miight be an option-free solution
[08:20]	:	Esbee, most people I know use the arrow keys
[08:20]	:	Yes, you can "feel" the arrow keys (on most keyboards)
[08:20]	:	Arrow keys are good. for me.
[08:20]	:	the bottom line is SL is a social world, games are not
[08:20]	:	option free solution might be to force it back to how it was
[08:20]	:	older keyboard tit not have arrow keys so you had to incoperate some form of move ment keyd
[08:20]	:	I use WASD and "mouse steer" my avatar.
[08:20]	:	and those who want to use WSAD could config their keyboard bindings to use ctrl+wsad?
[08:21]	:	for example, if Enter put focus into chat, could that be an answer?
[08:21]	:	I use the 3D spacenav joystick to move around.
[08:21]	:	no Q
[08:21]	:	Q, no
[08:21]	:	it's backwards
[08:21]	:	Sorry, that is a step back to 1.23, and you ar enot allowed to do that. Oz sez so
[08:21]	:	each time we click in-world we lose focus
[08:21]	:	that's how it works now, and people jump around instead of chatting and go back to 1.23
[08:21]	:	LOL
[08:21]	:	Q enter already dose that
[08:21]	:	because ChatbarStealsFocus is broken
[08:21]	:	omg it does - thanks Wolf :)
[08:21]	:	oh, heh
[08:22]	:	i didn't know that :)
[08:22]	:	having to hit enter to chat is how it works, and it's still one of the biggest complaints about focus
[08:22]	:	so that's not a solution
[08:22]	:	I'me just waiting for someone to lose it, pick up the gun and start at it.
[08:22]	:	People who do not use Second Life every day should not be designing it's UI, methinks
[08:22]	:	:-)
[08:22]	:	q click in world and then try to type some thing
[08:22]	:	That's a bug that's been open for a while, I've been linking some of those (there are dupes) to get on the Snowstorm Team backlog
[08:22]	:	conversely Enter doesn't give the chatbar focus if the chat history focus, which does seem a bit backwards
[08:23]	:	mojito, just because i don't know everything doesn't mean i don't ues it
[08:23]	:	*has focus
[08:23]	:	hey don't go looking at me just because I'm dressed for that stort of thing
[08:23]	:	In general, Viewer 2 moved away from single-(letter)-key commands. E.g. [B] for building was moved to [Ctrl]+[B]. WASD navigation goes the other way.
[08:23]	:	Like the people in Search development, who clearly never go shopping
[08:23]	:	pffft I didn't know either and I'm in here everyday
[08:23]	:	sorry for being late. sl didnt want to let me on this morning
[08:23]	:	I use SL every day for a variety of reasons.
[08:23]	:	I build, script, shop, explore - every day. :)
[08:23]	:	You use it for voice chat in meetings?
[08:23]	:	lol
[08:24]	:	I refuse to be taken out of context (again). I've never said that no part of the v1 UI can be brought back - what I've said is that bringing it all back wholesale isn't up for discussion. But I agree with Q - let's look for a chat/keyboard/focus solution that meets the needs of as many people as possible with as few options as possible.
[08:24]	:	/me hosts events everday as well as tries do building as well as dev work
[08:24]	:	mojito, let's keep the personal stuff out of it
[08:24]	:	Yes, its got to all be about compromise. V2 just seemed like too much all at once.
[08:24]	:	to me
[08:24]	:	Esbee, what is the number of online time spent with people who reject the new UI, 70%? Radical design changes are needed to turn that around
[08:24]	:	Don't start on Search... not a Snowstorm issue
[08:25]	:	rejecting one design doesn't mean the previous was better
[08:25]	:	So let's not rat hole on chat focus for now. Let me take your feedback here back to the team and we'll throw out some ideas for chat focus. Maybe a short blog post or email to opensource-dev.
[08:25]	:	i can imagine WASD users aren't entirely happy either , because of VWR-20417
[08:25]		when chatbar is empty
[08:25]	:	if there is so much resistance of bringing back the lost functionality I'm afraid the future does not bode well
[08:25]	:	Kopilo, yes it does
[08:26]	:	Why don't we take polls on this stuff
[08:26]	:	lol
[08:26]	:	not "so much" - but understand there are many issues
[08:26]	:	Who are we going to poll? There are hundreds of thousands of SL users, most of whom won't respond, and there are many different kinds of users
[08:27]	:	we do have a bog
[08:27]	:	Oz, look up in the usage statistics, that should be poll enough for you
[08:27]	:	You don't need everyone to respond to a poll, just a cross section
[08:27]	:	and it has poll options
[08:27]	:	So this is just my second office hour, but I'm curious about how you guys would like to get involved in the shaping of the Product Backlog. We can use these meetings to discuss specific user stories on the team backlog or we could talk about new ideas. (Rather than arguing with each other for an hour a week) :)
[08:27]	:	:)
[08:27]	:	/me puts his heads in his hands and mumbles about accessibility
[08:27]	:	And reading the comments on the SL forums and collating that (although that would be time consuming and undoubtedly very tedious *laughs*
[08:27]	:	head*
[08:27]	:	I understand the "toast" feature was borrowed from facebook. Facebook no longer uses that. I wonder if there is a doc somewhere explaining why facebook dropped it. I might have usefull info for future UI disgn here.
[08:28]	:	besides, polls will only tell you what people think of existing solutions (which we already know need fixing), not new ones they have not been able to try yet
[08:28]	:	i hope our feedback isn't limited to in-world meetings
[08:28]	:	s/I/It/
[08:28]	:	the opensource-dev list is open, Moon
[08:28]	:	Oz, again you and infinite new posibilities, forgetting that the previous UI had 23 itertations of fine tuning
[08:28]	:	Actually, "toasts" are more akin to notifications from other messaging apps - like Growl.
[08:28]	:	posts there are very welcome
[08:28]	:	i see, Oz
[08:28]	:	Lightbulb moments :-))
[08:29]	:	i sometimes keep an eye on that list, but it's a lot of reading
[08:29]	:	Esbee, except SL is a world where communiations are just a part of it
[08:29]	:	i normally work off the jira
[08:29]	:	I think if there are any lightbulb moments, Moon, just shove a notecard the way of Esbee or Oz maybe
[08:29]	:	Growl, never heard of that app
[08:29]	:	latif, you're not really saying 1.23 was the ultimate ui, are you?
[08:29]	:	isn't Growl a framework?
[08:29]	:	Moon - You can send us email directly, drop notecards on us, or email the opensource-dev list.
[08:29]	:	Marigold, i don't want to give personal advice :)
[08:29]	:	I'm also spending a good chunk of my days in Jira triaging, so there are lots of ways to provide feedback and ideas.
[08:30]	:	not the ultimate, but.... 2.x ui is like the unlitmate example of what not to do...
[08:30]	:	linux has libnotify. But I think growl is close sourced for mac and windows.
[08:30]	:	Q, I am saying it was orders of magnitute more usable than v2. It was ugly, but nothing a new theme couldn't freshen up
[08:30]	:	i want something public
[08:30]	:	I thought toasts were more like a growl message too, but I believe fb dropped their notifications because of tech issues involved with the multitude of browsers/versions they deliver across
[08:30]	:	Growl is a notification system that multiple apps can use
[08:30]	:	oh, ok Moon, I get it
[08:30]	:	Growl is a notification framework that applications can tie into to provide alerts about actions.
[08:30]	:	yes public is better
[08:30]	:	Q, I also think you vastly underestimate how broken v2 ui is
[08:30]	:	Ok Latif - we get that you liked it better, and we want to make V2 better than it is. there are more options that just "revert"
[08:30]	:	i looked into using growl but it doesnt do interactive notifications
[08:30]	:	can we shift onto v3?
[08:30]	:	I disagree, at this point I prefer the v2 UI to v1x
[08:30]	:	/me smiles
[08:31]	:	I use v2 exclusively
[08:31]	:	Oz, i reject your notion of "infinite new possibilities" in the face of a working vs. non working ui
[08:31]	:	I use both
[08:31]	:	I primarily use v2
[08:31]	:	ok.. then we just disagree I guess
[08:31]	:	they are too different for me to really compare :p
[08:31]	:	Oz, yes we do
[08:32]	:	i sue both. i like some features in 2.x better, but the ungodly ui makes everything ten times harder and so many more clicks
[08:32]	:	The way forward is the decoupled user interface. Let people develop new ones without having to dig into the viewer innards/
[08:32]	:	no transparent windows are unbearable
[08:32]	:	Med: you can change that
[08:32]	:	Mojito, that's a 2 year project, and by then the SL user concurrency will be approching 0
[08:32]	:	i only use viewer2 to hunt bugs, for common use i log in with 1.23.5
[08:32]	:	it is not about me
[08:33]	:	I think the beta version has an option for transparent windows
[08:33]	:	this is why you need polls
[08:33]	:	i could have sworn preferences -> advanced tab had a slider for transparency
[08:34]	:	/me uses some image tweaks to have transparent floaters
[08:34]	:	back to Esbee's question - I like the idea of reviewing the backlog, I think it's possible we'll be able to expand/refine the user stories and maybe assist with prioritizing - assuming conversations remain on track :)
[08:34]	:	I agree. polls would really help allot especially idf the users started seeing you pay attention to them
[08:34]	:	Trilo pretty sure it is there
[08:34]	:	nah, LL does not believe in JIra votes or polls... apparently they think they know better than the people who actually use the product
[08:34]	:	Honour - Thanks :) I agree.
[08:34]	:	did Q leave? can't see him anymore
[08:34]	:	he got logged out for some reason
[08:34]	:	I dislike polls because of inaccuracies, time and cost
[08:34]	:	I think Q went to bury the dead horse :)
[08:35]	:	lol
[08:35]	:	LOL
[08:35]	:	:-P
[08:35]	:	aimee, SL now boots the lindens as well as the users? I like that new feature *runs*
[08:35]	:	inaccuracy is due to bad wording of polls
[08:35]	:	Q went for a bar of chocolate. Blood sugar was running low I think.
[08:35]	:	seems that the mention of v1.23 UI brings high blood pressure to most lindens
[08:36]	:	Med: inaccuracy also occurs through poor implemetentation of polls in general
[08:36]	:	I'd rather we not talk about 1.23 either
[08:36]	:	Q got logged out
[08:36]	:	Cummere: getting booted is all part of walking in the residents shoes
[08:36]	:	So. I'm going to state it one more time....
[08:36]	:	We're not going back to the 1.23 UI.
[08:36]	:	ok, so lets assume V2 is here to stay and go from there.
[08:37]	:	please
[08:37]	:	We will include more UI customization. And we're working on that right now.
[08:37]	:	Well I think that if some elements worked good in 1.23, and I think that the local chat is one of those elements, it can be a valid suggestion
[08:37]	:	Acknowledging that it needs improvement
[08:37]	:	As I mentioned at the beginning of this meeting, we have a few devs working on detachable sidebar panels right now. This will allow you to turn a sidebar tab into a floater.
[08:37]	:	I know I've met newbies who have struggled with V2 sometimes, but some take to it like a duck to water.
[08:37]	:	Esbee, that's a nice talking point. But when we bring an actual change like chat focus, you say "customization bad"
[08:37]	:	You'll be able to test that out in a development Viewer pretty soon.
[08:37]	:	yes, I'm looking forward to that one
[08:37]	:	what i see that some of the fixes in viewer2 are not an improvement , but a regression
[08:37]	:	Thank you for your input Latif... we hear you... you don't need to monopolize chat by repeating it
[08:37]	:	Thanks god
[08:37]	:	Esbee: I was thinking if all the shortcuts were made bindable in the keys.ini then for example my little java app can be used as a MOAP to edit it
[08:38]	:	Please explain how you can be anti-options and pro-customization?
[08:38]	:	esbee, I think you need someone to hunt trhough jiras and forums and make sure key bugs and feature requests for stated projects ( like the displaynames, mesh issues, and grid merger) dont get overlooked, especially since it doesnt seem like they are as high on the priority list for some of the teams responsible for fixing/enabling them as other issues right now
[08:38]	:	to really improve the UI we need 2-way feedback
[08:38]	:	well if we were discussing the backlog we could make sure those important jira's were reflected in use cases - no?
[08:38]	:	Oz, I also hear you repeating stuff like "we want customizable UI", and "we don't want to add options", you might want to clarify that to avoid the repetition
[08:38]	:	Ardy - All I'm saying is that we can't provide an option for every last feature and functional item in the Viewer. There is a balance.
[08:38]	:	I would be willing to take on some of that even if i can get someone LL side to cordinate with
[08:39]	:	is there an updated backlog document, or is https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tCVGlO5ndR_oyrfKEC9CxKA&hl=en #gid=5 still valid?
[08:39]	:	I also believe Q is right when he says, there are sometimes better solutions. We want to find those.
[08:39]	:	and an office hour where the chat scrolls too fast to read is hardly a place to give feedback
[08:39]	:	TriloByte - That is our Team Product Backlog - so you have the right one.
[08:39]	:	esbee: then why dont you poll the users about what they want? Ui wise, policy wise, and feature wise?
[08:39]	:	Yes, i think the forums are better
[08:40]	:	excellent, thanks esbee
[08:40]	:	np
[08:40]	:	Cummere - Polls will only be used by a small fraction of users.
[08:40]	:	polls dont work
[08:40]	:	alot more than are here
[08:40]	:	We can certainly use polls to inform decisions, but there are other considerations.
[08:40]	:	only because you have a history of ignoring them
[08:40]	:	I would really like to hear how can you squere "customizable ui" with "no new options"
[08:40]	:	polls are a cumbersome/time lengthening/ineffectual way to design anything
[08:41]	:	No, Cummere... because we get too many conflicting answers
[08:41]	:	All I know is that as people always tend to complain rather than compliment, you could pick up so much just from what people complain about on the SL forums on V2. But it is a lot of the same issues coming up time and time again of course.
[08:41]	:	the same people will respond who come to meetings and contribute to Jira's and the dev list
[08:41]	:	no honour they are not. if done corectly they keep you from wasting thousands of horus and millions of dollars
[08:41]	:	If polls don't work, what does? Feedback before stuff is set into stone is important.
[08:41]	:	Latif - I'm going to go over it again and again. We can't have options for every feature and functional item in the Viewer. But we can allow some customization where it makes sense to do so.
[08:41]	:	Besides, it's not useful to beat us up about ignoring you when there are 8 Lindens here to listen to what you have to say
[08:42]	:	Boroondas - We have daily development builds of Viewer 2 now as part of Project Snowstorm.
[08:42]	:	oz hearing what we have to say and listening are two differant things
[08:42]	:	You can grab a Development Viewer build and give us feedback anyyime.
[08:42]	:	Like when people cheat polls by voting multiple times per person. Everyone knows there are ways to cheat polls.
[08:42]	:	anytime, even
[08:42]	:	lets talk about v2
[08:42]	:	Esbee, development builds only show implemented stuff. How can the userbase influence the design stage?
[08:42]	:	people are notoriously bad at guessing what a feature will be like until they can actually use it
[08:42]	:	Yes, Medhue - best bits, worst bits, summarised briefly.
[08:43]	:	Boroondas +1
[08:43]	:	Boroondas - I'd like to use this meeting to share design ideas and gather feedback. I'm still trying to sort out our process here.
[08:43]	:	Yes, now that people have been able to see Display Names in action on the beta grid, they hate it even more than when it was proposed.
[08:43]	:	Mojito - This team doesn't do any work on Display Names. So I'd advise providing feedback on their blog post.
[08:44]	:	Lots of people have provided feedback there - it was ignored.
[08:44]	:	please don't speak in generalities. not eveyone feels the same
[08:44]	:	Boroondas - For example, Rhett (from UX) and I have been sketching ideas for UI improvements.
[08:44]	:	VWR-17001 is an example of a fix gone wrong
[08:44]		info on the viewer header when hiding the "navigation" bar
[08:44]	:	It probably wasn't ignored, just being collated in the backstage area.
[08:44]	:	can we talk more about the sidebar
[08:44]	:	last night it was locked esbee
[08:44]	:	I'd love to use this meeting to share a sketch like that and talk about what you like/dont' like about it.
[08:44]	:	Cummere - I wasn't aware it was locked. Sorry.
[08:45]	:	silly question regarding actual viewer development... how does the planar texture alignment work in 2.1.2?
[08:45]	:	Esbee, can we (the users) contribute sketches, too?
[08:45]	:	Boroondas - Absolutely! I would love that!
[08:45]	:	Cool
[08:45]	:	/me walks around with a sketchbook all the time - so I'll never turn down anyone else throwing sketches at me
[08:46]	:	boroondas - just be willing to accept feeddback please!
[08:46]	:	/me looks confused
[08:46]	:	What about user Icons, we don't need little pic of people we can't see
[08:46]	:	Q, of course
[08:46]	:	do you want a sketch on some of my ideas for the viewer?
[08:46]	:	uml?
[08:46]	:	/me chuckles
[08:46]	:	+1 medhue
[08:46]	:	the display names is an example how feedback is done generaly, feature is fully developed and even deployed on the servers, before any feedback is gathered, so it's just for fun that it is asked. a much better way in my opinion would be to ask the question in advance: "we have a problem that people go wtf is this when asked to pick a last name during the signup, how do you think we should solve this", and then do a summary from the feedback
[08:47]	:	yes Latif
[08:47]	:	Medue - can you elaborate on the user icons?
[08:47]	:	med: you can enable plaintext chat in the preferences
[08:47]	:	my pc is downloading pictures I have no use for
[08:47]	:	Medhue - you can turn those off
[08:47]	:	select "plain text chat"
[08:47]	:	oh good
[08:47]	:	you can but then the user names dont pop out
[08:48]	:	nope i'm talking in the sidebar
[08:48]	:	an option to keep the chat seperate by the bars without the icons would be nice
[08:48]	:	well then you have to keep the chat history open at all times which obscures the world view
[08:48]	:	or in the bar at the bottom
[08:48]	:	in the sidebar we dont need them
[08:48]	:	so instead of using 2lines mimimum, chat uses one line minimum...
[08:48]	:	you can turn the off in the sidebar too
[08:48]	:	how aimee?
[08:49]	:	using the "gear menu" at the bottom of the people sidebar
[08:49]	:	oh yeah
[08:49]	:	Here is an idea, be able to regulate how fast chat goes by, so you have a chance to read it at the cost of some delay if there is a lot going by at once.
[08:49]	:	if you want bars, why do you care if ther are icons?
[08:49]	:	/me wonders why isnt any of this documented?
[08:49]	:	sidebar: inconsitant menu placement = bad
[08:50]	:	also is there a way to turn off the annoying boxes that pop up along the side, even when an im or group chat window is active?
[08:50]	:	the gear menu has a major discoverability issue
[08:50]	:	I believe so, they're called toasts... there are a number of debug settings that allow you to change their behavior
[08:50]	:	there is a tost tweek that i use but it would be nice to have that as a setting
[08:50]	:	/me wonders why none of the menus can be accessed with keyboard shortcuts...
[08:50]	:	Boroondas ... yes, it does (as confirmed by LL usability testing)
[08:50]	:	Agreed. Our UX team has been working on some new design for the sidebar items.
[08:50]	:	no user icons should be default tho
[08:51]	:	I think that's on the backlog, kopilo
[08:51]	:	why?
[08:51]	:	Rhett (from UX) and I are meeting early next week to review that stuff so I can share it with you.
[08:51]	:	Oz, usuabilty testing proved to be a perfect tool I see
[08:51]	:	Kopilo - that's on our list (and partly fixed in the Development viewers)
[08:51]	:	what's wrong with icons?
[08:51]	:	YAY
[08:51]	:	Extra icons in chat can seem cluttered to new uesers used to other chat interfaces.
[08:51]	:	only taken 3 years xD
[08:51]	:	my pc is doing stuff you don't need
[08:51]	:	they are too small and straing the eyes if you do like them, and jsut annnoying if you dont.
[08:51]	:	to me the icons are useless
[08:51]	:	we need to see the world not icon
[08:51]	:	And use up space
[08:52]	:	i like the icons
[08:52]	:	I like them, too
[08:52]	:	i want the world to rez fast not my icons
[08:52]	:	I've never really noticed them to be honest - thought it was a nice touch
[08:52]	:	/me keeps his chat set to plain text
[08:52]	:	The only use I have for those icons is when several people are using the same display name, then you have a way of knowing who typed what
[08:52]	:	I kinda like them too, but they are too small for me to see them really
[08:52]	:	by their current placement, you'd gain nothing by eliminating them
[08:52]	:	I'd even like to have icons in the compact chat view.
[08:52]	:	(optional of course)
[08:52]	:	if i try i get headaches
[08:52]	:	if you have a slow net, then it matters
[08:53]	:	as far as the sidebar in general
[08:53]	:	so... turn them off?
[08:53]	:	I like them for the group chat icons - helps me remember which to click :)
[08:53]	:	I like the layout in sg 2.0 better then any of the other 2.x sidebar versions
[08:53]	:	They're not a bad thing in my opinion. It can show you if a human or object is sayin' somethin'... Maybe a little toggle for them at the chat box top could suffice... just a small idea,
[08:53]	:	i think you can switch it back to the text-based stuff and disable icons in most (if not all) places
[08:53]	:	Yes.
[08:53]	:	i'd like to see proof that turning them off makes a measurable difference, but we're nitpicicking. some people like pictures
[08:54]	:	So we have just a few minutes left. A couple of things I want to cover before we wrap up for today.
[08:54]	:	slightly more customability and its -slightly- easier to find some fo the menues, and much easier to do some tasks
[08:54]	:	1) I'm really excited about this office hour and the chance to work with you on Viewer 2. :)
[08:54]	:	:
[08:54]	:	:)
[08:54]	:	2) But we have to make these discussions productive. So fighting about the past won't get us anywhere.
[08:55]	:	I agree
[08:55]	:	So I'd like to recommend a few things:
[08:55]	:	like i said, office hours are not for detailed feedback
[08:55]	:	+Moon
[08:55]	:	not suitable
[08:55]	:	* email me anytime with ideas (or the opensource-dev list)
[08:55]	:	Here is my last comment about icon, when i open the sidebar my whole word stops for a minute
[08:55]	:	i will add my feedback to the jira
[08:55]	:	* send comments, sketches, proposals. All good :)
[08:55]	:	and send a note, sometimes that's better
[08:56]	:	* If you see a user story on the Snowstorm Team Product Backlog that interests your or you have questions on, let's talk about it.
[08:56]	:	yup
[08:56]	:	I can't reply to everything I receive.
[08:56]	:	But I do look at everything.
[08:56]	:	a reply is improtant though
[08:57]	:	we have no idea what you're up to back there
[08:57]	:	Well a reply shouldn't be that important if you realise how busy people are back stage
[08:57]	:	And if an idea gets put in place then you have your reply
[08:57]	:	(until it's released)
[08:57]	:	or at least an acknowledgement, especially if we're asking to discuss it more with you.
[08:57]	:	Its amazing how I've watched the JIRAs seeming not to progress and then all of a sudden there's a result. That's always worth waiting for
[08:57]	:	even if its an automatic "this email was recieved and read"
[08:57]	:	So know that we're trying to iron out this new process, this new way of working and we'll make lots of changes as we go.
[08:58]	:	Did you all see the notice about that issue with "you have been logged out until xxxx" being fixed?
[08:58]	:	jiras are appreciated, esp when we get new jira
[08:58]	:	Oh did I ever :-)))))
[08:58]	:	Did I ever !!!!
[08:58]	:	What will I do if I can't find any more ghosts??
[08:58]	:	I think you'll be happy with the transparency of the new Jira, at least for Snowstorm issues
[08:59]	:	when is that coming, Oz?
[08:59]	:	So with that, I want to thank everybody for coming this week!
[08:59]	:	I've learned a lot this week.
[08:59]	:	good to see you up and about Q :)
[08:59]	:	thanks!
[08:59]	:	esbee i would really like to get with you in the next couple of days please
[08:59]	:	thank you Esbee (and all of you) :) see you next week
[08:59]	:	I for 1 would like to say that I appreciate what you all do, but in this time of massive upevil, things are heated and people are losing money, and you can bet they are mad, So, you need to have a really thick shin
[08:59]	:	yes, welcome back Q
[08:59]	:	I'll post a transcript from this meeting to the wiki.
[08:59]	:	REALLY good, Q :))
[08:59]	:	:)
[09:00]	:	skin i mean
[09:00]	:	Link to the transcript will be sent out to opensource-dev@
[09:00]	:	shins too
[09:00]	:	and Q, I am really glad to see you back. please take care of yourself though :-/
[09:00]	:	Thanks, Esbee, Q - and Ellla
[09:00]	:	Thick shin for when you get kicked? :)
[09:00]	:	thanks for the meeting Esbee, good luck!
[09:00]	:	see you all!
[09:00]	:	I'm off to commute into the office. Thanks everyone!
[09:00]	:	cya take care
[09:00]	:	topics for my office hour can be posted here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
[09:01]	:	a shameless plug ..
[09:01]	:	</shameless plug>

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