User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

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Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009


Topic: Communication Tools


Participants (21):


[10:03] Blondin Linden: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] Ciaran Laval: :P Gordon

[10:04] Gordon Wendt: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] Blondin Linden: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] Blondin Linden: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] Taka Linden: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] Taka Linden: or Skype?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] Ciaran Laval: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:05] Ludo Merit: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] BlueGin Yifu: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] Lowri Mills: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] Ciaran Laval: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] Marianne McCann: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] Gordon Wendt: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] Daniel Voyager: with SL

[10:07] Lexie Linden: good point Daniel

[10:07] Taka Linden: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] Ciaran Laval: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] Taka Linden: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] Blondin Linden: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now- available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] Taka Linden: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] Ludo Merit: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] Gordon Wendt: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] Marianne McCann: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] Rihanna Laasonen: Why is faster better?

[10:08] Ciaran Laval: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] Taka Linden: Good idea.

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] Blondin Linden: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] Ludo Merit: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] Blondin Linden: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] Biancaluce Robbiani: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have that :)

[10:09] Rihanna Laasonen: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: *that

[10:09] Poid Mahovlich: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] Taka Linden: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use cases"

[10:10] Taka Linden: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] Ciaran Laval: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] Poid Mahovlich: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] Marianne McCann: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] Gordon Wendt: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:11] BlueGin Yifu: agree

[10:11] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:11] Rihanna Laasonen: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] Ludo Merit nods too

[10:11] Taka Linden: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who are not online

[10:11] Gordon Wendt: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is rather clunky

[10:11] Lexie Linden: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] Surfaqua Oh: hello

[10:12] MSo Lambert: Hi all

[10:12] Taka Linden: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] Lowri Mills: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] Lowri Mills: I do

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] Biancaluce Robbiani: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] Lowri Mills: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] Poid Mahovlich: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] Ludo Merit: Small one

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Ya, that

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: purpose for me.

[10:13] Taka Linden: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] Rihanna Laasonen: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:13] Lowri Mills: and group chat

[10:13] Poid Mahovlich: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] Blondin Linden: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] Gordon Wendt: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] Ludo Merit: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately for me, costs money.

[10:14] Taka Linden: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is proving important.

[10:14] Marianne McCann: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: off*

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] Biancaluce Robbiani: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is glad IMHO

[10:14] Lowri Mills: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] Ludo Merit: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] BlueGin Yifu: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] Lowri Mills: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] Yann Dufaux: burned :p

[10:15] Taka Linden: Lowri Mills: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] Blondin Linden: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: thing*

[10:16] Lowri Mills: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] Lowri Mills: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] Yann Dufaux: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:16] Taka Linden: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: that old chestnut

[10:16] Lowri Mills: it just happened

[10:17] Marianne McCann: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty overworked in 2009

[10:17] Lowri Mills: it happens on an off

[10:17] Ludo Merit: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] Taka Linden: if you could have any number?

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many do you need?

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] Poid Mahovlich: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] Ciaran Laval: as manay as I can get

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] Yann Dufaux: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] Daniel Voyager: 35+

[10:18] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] Lowri Mills: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] Marianne McCann: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be

  • comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] Lowri Mills: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] Taka Linden: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that 25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: now*

[10:18] Gordon Wendt: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] Ludo Merit: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: like*

[10:19] Marianne McCann: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] Ludo Merit: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need fewer groups

[10:19] Gordon Wendt: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] Poid Mahovlich: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] Taka Linden: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their offerings?

[10:19] Biancaluce Robbiani: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] Ciaran Laval: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] Taka Linden: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] Rihanna Laasonen: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] Marianne McCann: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] Taka Linden: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] Ludo Merit: Yes

[10:20] Yann Dufaux: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] Biancaluce Robbiani: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] Blondin Linden: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] Ludo Merit: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] Poid Mahovlich: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: Hippo Groups

[10:21] Ludo Merit: Cost money

[10:21] Biancaluce Robbiani: is it free?

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] Poid Mahovlich: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] Lowri Mills: now that is a good idea

[10:22] Blondin Linden: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] Lowri Mills: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] Rihanna Laasonen: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: yus exactly

[10:22] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] BlueGin Yifu: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] Poid Mahovlich: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Mari

[10:23] Marianne McCann grins

[10:23] Gordon Wendt: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] Rihanna Laasonen: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] Taka Linden: Got it.

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] Biancaluce Robbiani: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] Taka Linden: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  BlueGin Yifu: yes

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] Lowri Mills: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] Ciaran Laval: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: if they raised groups

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] Taka Linden: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] Marianne McCann: true, Gordon

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: on*

[10:25] Ludo Merit: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: again to give options and control

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: group chat on/off/

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] BlueGin Yifu: great idea, poid

[10:26] Marianne McCann: Agreed

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] Ciaran Laval: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] Yann Dufaux: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] Blondin Linden: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] Ciaran Laval: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] Torben Trautman: hi there

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] Yann Dufaux: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] Biancaluce Robbiani: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] Poid Mahovlich: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] Marianne McCann: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] Blondin Linden: a group ban feature?

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] Biancaluce Robbiani: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] Yann Dufaux: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] Ludo Merit: I ask

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: from a group

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property based on the groups they're in

[10:29] Blondin Linden: oh I get it poid

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: something for you to clean up

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: HIPPOS

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: that is all :)

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: apologies even

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: nope

[10:30] Lowri Mills: nope

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: no

[10:30] Sitearm Madonna waves

[10:30] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] Ludo Merit: Slim?

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] Marianne McCann: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] Blondin Linden: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] Taka Linden: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] Taka Linden: is one better than the other?

[10:30] Blondin Linden: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] Taka Linden: or are they comparable

[10:30] Taka Linden: ?

[10:30] Poid Mahovlich: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview - this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] Lowri Mills: no

[10:31] Marianne McCann: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] Ludo Merit: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] Yann Dufaux: whats hippo group?

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: we use the bot method

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse /SVC-2826

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] Ciaran Laval: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information, they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you agree?

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: agreed Gordon

[10:32] Ciaran Laval: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] Sitearm Madonna: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL does

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plan and simple

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plane*#

[10:33] Sitearm Madonna: ty Bianca

[10:33] Biancaluce Robbiani: yw

[10:33] Blondin Linden: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton of votes

[10:34] MSo Lambert: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers (I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only, while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] Ciaran Laval: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] Poid Mahovlich: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] Taka Linden: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] Ciaran Laval: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] Taka Linden: :-)

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: awww

[10:36] Marianne McCann: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] Yann Dufaux: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] Taka Linden: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: and voice would break that

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] Marianne McCann: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] Taka Linden: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] Poid Mahovlich: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] Taka Linden: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] Taka Linden: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] Rihanna Laasonen: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] MSo Lambert: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] Ciaran Laval: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] Ludo Merit: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] BlueGin Yifu: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] Taka Linden: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] Sitearm Madonna: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] Taka Linden: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] Taka Linden: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] Ludo Merit: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] Ciaran Laval: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] MSo Lambert: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] Poid Mahovlich: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] Taka Linden: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: ditto Blondin

[10:41] Lexie Linden: For me too

[10:41] Taka Linden: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] Blondin Linden: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] Ciaran Laval: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] Ludo Merit: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to clarify is needed?

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] Marianne McCann: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] Marianne McCann winks

[10:41] MSo Lambert: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] Lowri Mills: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: lol Mar

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] Biancaluce Robbiani: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] Marianne McCann: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself is the real problem?

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I see that from time to time

[10:42] Gordon Wendt: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] Ciaran Laval: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: again a feature

[10:43] Taka Linden: a couple days

[10:44] Lowri Mills: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] Lowri Mills: daily

[10:44] Gordon Wendt: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] Lowri Mills: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature ....

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: depending

[10:44] BlueGin Yifu: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: yup

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] Ciaran Laval: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] Lowri Mills: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] Marianne McCann: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] BlueGin Yifu: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: lol

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ;)

[10:45] Lowri Mills: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] Blondin Linden: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] Ciaran Laval: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] Poid Mahovlich: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] Lowri Mills: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] Gordon Wendt: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] Blondin Linden: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] Blondin Linden: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] Biancaluce Robbiani: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] MSo Lambert: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a same email IM before....

[10:46] Poid Mahovlich: nope Blondin

[10:47] Blondin Linden: really?

[10:47] Blondin Linden: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] Blondin Linden: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] Lexie Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online


[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: wicked ty

[10:47] Lexie Linden: ㋡

[10:48] Gordon Wendt: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] Poid Mahovlich: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] Lexie Linden: ok : )

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] Taka Linden: How about SMS?

[10:49] Taka Linden: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] Blondin Linden: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] Ludo Merit: SMS?

[10:49] Poid Mahovlich: wud be cool

[10:49] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:49] Yann Dufaux: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] Lowri Mills: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] Ciaran Laval: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] Lowri Mills: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] MSo Lambert: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] Lowri Mills: and translates

[10:50] Marianne McCann: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors text'

[10:50] Blondin Linden: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] Blondin Linden: sponsor texts?

[10:50] Yann Dufaux: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] Ciaran Laval: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via SMS that would be superb

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: grab at & T :)

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: who*

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: why problems business is business?

[10:53] Taka Linden: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] Gordon Wendt: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] Ciaran Laval: That has potential Taka

[10:53] Biancaluce Robbiani: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second Life Radio...

[10:53] Marianne McCann: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] Taka Linden: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] Blondin Linden: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] MSo Lambert: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] Taka Linden: OK

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: your av, even.

[10:54] Marianne McCann: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those of us doing business in here.

[10:54] Biancaluce Robbiani: I agree

[10:54] Ciaran Laval: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] Ludo Merit: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've got

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] Taka Linden: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] Blondin Linden: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] Marianne McCann: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] Ciaran Laval: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: *assumes the position

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes Taka

[10:56] Taka Linden: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Taka - yes

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] Marianne McCann: and yes

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes deffo skype

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: :)

[10:56] Blondin Linden: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a communication tool

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] Gordon Wendt: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Joao

[10:57] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] Taka Linden: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] Taka Linden: This is great.

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] Taka Linden: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] Lowri Mills: so does Lowri Mills

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] Biancaluce Robbiani: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official channel...

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] BlueGin Yifu: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual players will do this.

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: as a official channel

[10:58] Marianne McCann: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  Poid Mahovlich: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] Marianne McCann: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: in my opinion

[10:59] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:59] Lowri Mills: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: k

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] Blondin Linden: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] Rihanna Laasonen dittos Gordon.

[11:01] Blondin Linden: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] Blondin Linden: Lots of useful info

[11:01] Lexie Linden: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] Taka Linden: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] Gordon Wendt: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] Marianne McCann: You're welcome!  :-)

[11:01] Torben Trautman waves

[11:01] Blondin Linden: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] Torben Trautman: bye all

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] Poid Mahovlich: ty all

[11:01] Marianne McCann: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] Blondin Linden: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] Lowri Mills: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] Taka Linden: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] Taka Linden: really good insights

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