AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24

• [9:27] Tao Takashi: summons the rest of the crowd :)
• [9:27] Connected undefined:
• [9:27] Tao Takashi: ah, it worked
• [9:28] Tao Takashi: so basically I have full concentration for 30 mins, after that my alt needs to attend another event and I might be more active there
• [9:28] Zha Ewry: chuckle
• [9:28] Zha Ewry: what is this full concentration you speak of?
• [9:29] Tao Takashi: well, of course that's also relative to what's happening here in the office
• [9:29] Tao Takashi:  ;)
• [9:29] Tao Takashi: but I am also keen to attend the meetup with 23andme.com and ask them some questions
• [9:30] Periapse Linden: Hello, everybody!
• [9:30] BlueWall Slade: hi
• [9:30] Tao Takashi: Hi Periapse
• [9:30] Tao Takashi: Hi Bluewall
• [9:30] Zha Ewry: Hey Peri, Blue, Latha, Elric
• [9:30] Elric Ember: Hello everyone
• [9:31] BlueWall Slade: Hello
• [9:31] Zha Ewry: gglances at Latha and LaPiscean, and reminds people of the "no marking" policy on the sim's trees.
• [9:32] LaPiscean Liberty: lol
• [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Enus online
• [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: admires all the groggy avtars still drinking coffe
• [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: coffee
• [9:37] Juntje Allen: yo guys
• [9:37] Elric Ember: Hi Juntje
• [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: is thinking we need a talking stick to keep meeting organized due to the dozens of conversations going at thesame time...
• [9:39] Tao Takashi: Hello everybody :)
• [9:39] Enus Linden: allo
• [9:39] Nolligan Nino: hello
• [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Mr To
• [9:39] LaPiscean Liberty: Hello all
• [9:39] Tao Takashi: I posted 2 links to the sldev group regarding the Zope Component Architecture and what I did on refactoring Enus' script
• [9:39] Bartholomew Kleiber: Hello all
• [9:39] Scope Cleaver: Greetings
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: this is about my refactoring: [1]
• [9:40] Enus Linden: (thanks Tao)
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: this is my ZCA intro: [2]
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: this is the code: [3]
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: and this is an example script which does the login until I get a 400 error which Linden Lab needs to resolve I think: [4]
• [9:42] Enus Linden: I'm not gonna be able to look at the 400 issue myself today i'm afraid
• [9:42] Enus Linden: but, tonite i can poke
• [9:42] Enus Linden: so are there agenda items other than test harness discussion?
• [9:43] Zha Ewry: You're it for the moment Enus
• [9:43] Enus Linden: suweet
• [9:43] Zha Ewry: And. I have two small topics, if we run out of things to pester you and Tao about
• [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: watches the Happy LInden have a panic attack
• [9:44] Enus Linden: so we are considering the merits of using zca in the pyogp package
• [9:44] Movies1963 Beck: I've heard a rumor I'd like to see cleared up
• [9:44] Enus Linden: weighing the flexibility it allows vs the use of for lack of a more reasonable term 'stock' python classes etc
• [9:45] Enus Linden: pyogp aims to be 1. a client library for interacting with Sl and SL like agent and region domains 2. a test harness for testing itself and an implementation of an SL/opensim like grid
• [9:45] Enus Linden: i'd also like to have in the package the ability to test agent and region domain implementations as well
• [9:46] Enus Linden: ZCA as i understand it adds flexibility when incorporated, by defining apis for modules
• [9:46] Enus Linden: each module can be swapped out for other modules that adhere to the api
• [9:46] Zha Ewry: Enus, that last would be huge
• [9:46] Enus Linden: is that a fair interpretation Tao?
• [9:46] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
• [9:47] Elric Ember: Hi Rex. Welcome.
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: well, more exactly components as module is already a defined thing in Python
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: so it's usually classes
• [9:47] Enus Linden: right, i need to get my terminology more in sync lol
• [9:48] Herbert Hoggard: Hi all ;-)
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: well, it depends all on how much it is used and how clever we use it (as alyways) on how flexible we are in the end
• [9:48] Rex Cronon: hi
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: but it should make refactoring easier as it's hopefully not too big components we handle then
• [9:48] Enus Linden: the only disavantage I see is adding a layer or abstraction in interacting with the classes, but this is a win as Tao points out in that we have to formally define things as we go
• [9:48] Juntje Allen: I dont get it :O >____<
• [9:48] Juntje Allen: I'm a noob
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: well, I like it that way as you first need to think a bit about what you want to do (well, theoretically ;-) )
• [9:49] Juntje Allen: xD
• [9:49] Enus Linden: what is 'it' that you don't get juntje?
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: What don't you understand, Juntje?
• [9:49] Juntje Allen: whats zca?
• [9:50] Enus Linden: zope component architecture
• [9:50] Juntje Allen: In phython?
• [9:50] Enus Linden: [5]
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: yes, it's written in Python for python
• [9:50] Enus Linden: [6] are formal docs
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: are you a python programmer, Juntje?
• [9:50] Juntje Allen: nope
• [9:51] Juntje Allen: I did a few wasyt script for blender but thats it
• [9:51] Enus Linden: so we're duscussing what framework to move forward with wrt pyogp...
• [9:51] Juntje Allen: easy
• [9:51] Enus Linden: zca = uneasy, but not really hard.
• [9:51] Tao Takashi: unused probably ;-)
• [9:51] Enus Linden: Sai, have you looked at Taos links?
• [9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: its a way of describing the "interface" so that bojects can use any class that uses an interface instead of a class name
• [9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: yes
• [9:52] Juntje Allen: oh ok
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: I admit I also needed to get used to it first as it's the same with eggs and buildout (two things I also would like to use and use already in the Google code stuff)
• [9:52] Enus Linden: Locklainn and I chatted earlier,he's happy to go with whatever we collectively decide
• [9:52] Enus Linden: Tao, why would you like to see eggs and buildout?
• [9:52] Juntje Allen: class Person(object): """a person""" def __init__(self, firstname, lastname, address, zip, city, dob): """initialize the address""" self.firstname = firstname self.lastname = lastname self.address = address self.zip = zip self.city = city self.dob = dob def fullname(self): return "%s %s" %(self.firstname, self.lastname)
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: for instance with buildout you might not need that setup_path stuff I saw in your code
• [9:52] Juntje Allen: is a sign up script i suppose?
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: because buildout lets you automatically define what get's installed in a development sandbox
• [9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: XML or script, I believe, Juntje
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: so you can install certain versions of packages local to your development sandbox and don't need to pollute your global python installation with it
• [9:53] Enus Linden: that rules
• [9:53] Juntje Allen: oh
• [9:53] Juntje Allen: ok
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: and those packages are called eggs
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: see here: [7]
• [9:54] Juntje Allen: so that diffrent regions run on diffrent packages
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: eventlet is already an egg
• [9:54] Enus Linden: right, i perused that over coffee this am lol
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: Juntje: Well, maybe, if they run in different sandboxes on a machine. But it's really more about different projects you develop on one machine
• [9:54] Juntje Allen: oh so like opensim
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: imagine that both need the python-openid library but different versions
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: this usually is a pain because you only can install one version in a global python installation
• [9:55] Juntje Allen: Yeh
• [9:55] Juntje Allen: I know
• [9:55] Juntje Allen: I have a opensim running too
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: so with buildout you have sandboxes with different versions if you want to
• [9:55] Enus Linden: so i'm leaning toward voting yes on zca, despite the odd layer of abstraction it provides. i do think what gets built would require awesome and clear documentation and samples were we to go that route...
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: buildout is sort of like make, maybe on a different level
• [9:55] LaPiscean Liberty: Is that like Tribals build on you own machine and publis to grid
• [9:55] Enus Linden: opinions?
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: I guess you know mine ;-)
• [9:56] Enus Linden: looks to Sai
• [9:56] Juntje Allen: i g2g guys
• [9:56] Enus Linden: lates juntje
• [9:56] Juntje Allen: sorry :<
• [9:56] Rex Cronon: bye juntje
• [9:56] Tao Takashi: cya Juntje!
• [9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm all for it. I don't see that it makes the system any less language independent since we're not doing anything that other OOP languages don't support in their own way
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: well, the library is language dependant anyway.. and ZCA does not interfere with the protocol itself
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: it's just a question of how it's implemented
• [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: and we can add C or C++ modules for testing, and the itnernal implementations can still be straightfoward implementations of the protocols
• [9:57] Enus Linden: but a python enabled (other language) module could be more easily plugged in as needed by a dev
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: I also assume though that it needs some work to find the right structure. I played around with things a bit but that is very probably not the end result, many questions on how to model things are still open
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: like network abstraction
• [9:58] Enus Linden: right, so per structure: we need a spec
• [9:58] Enus Linden: not a definitive one, but a guide
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: well, we need patterns I think
• [9:58] Enus Linden: pattern?
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: you want to create a new subsystem (e.g. inventory): How will the code structure look like?
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: something like this
• [9:59] Enus Linden: yay, pattern!
• [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Virtual World Patterns
• [9:59] Tao Takashi: so that all those components do it the same way and not everybody factors things out differently
• [9:59] Enus Linden: yes, the spec would include patterns
• [9:59] Tao Takashi: so it's understandable in the code what's happening
• [9:59] Tao Takashi: so this needs to evolve
• [9:59] Tao Takashi: and needs to be documented. my blog post could be a start
• [9:59] Tao Takashi: I tried to explain how I retrieve a new subsystem (place avatar) from the agent
• [10:00] Enus Linden: can wiki.secondlife.com host the docs please?
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: sure
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: unless it gets slow ;-)
• [10:00] Rex Cronon: you blog is going to be the documentation?
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: no
• [10:00] Enus Linden: starter for docs on wiki.sl
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: but I also like to blog about it
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: as it spreads more
• [10:01] Tao Takashi: or additionally
• [10:01] Tao Takashi: I will put this on the wiki then tomorrow
• [10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as we keep the "official" doc in one place, the more discussion in more places,t eh better, IMHO
• [10:01] Tao Takashi: might need restructuring anyway
• [10:01] Enus Linden: i sketched out a roadmap for implementation of pyogp that i'll publish later: milestones, components and the like
• [10:01] Enus Linden: i'll publish that to wii later today (aka my night time)
• [10:01] Enus Linden: wiki*
• [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates teh wii wiki
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: make it a game ;-)
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: hit the milestone!
• [10:02] Enus Linden: win a prize?
• [10:02] Enus Linden: lol
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: I was also thinking about how this can be tested
• [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: using wiii to control fishing rods in SL to fish things out of Zha's pond...
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: the lib
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: and I think we need some sort of dummy agent domain which responds to a login with maybe static data
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: and returns some caps which also can be quite static
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: and maybe some error conditions we can test against
• [10:03] Enus Linden: so, say we do zca, buildout and eggs. we need 1. to overwrite the svn repo with a dir structure 2. publish docs explaining what's there 3. plan on next steps
• [10:04] Tao Takashi: I am still not sure about the contrib agreement though, it makes contributions harder
• [10:04] Enus Linden: i can't avoid that right now at all Tao.
• [10:04] Enus Linden: is that a barrier for you? Sai, you?
• [10:04] Enus Linden: Gareth is the only other person I know of who actively wants to participate with potentail contribs
• [10:05] Tao Takashi: as I can always fork I guess it's not but the less control by LL the better IMHO
• [10:05] Enus Linden: Locklainn and Infinity, plus Tess and Leyla, would contribute internally
• [10:05] Tao Takashi: we also might need to setup some coding procedures, like how to code and what you shouldn't do etc.
• [10:05] Tao Takashi: like write tests (is what you _should_ do ;-) )
• [10:05] Enus Linden: yes Tao, and patterns + coding 'standards' loosely defined would be nice, so we're all speaking the same language
• [10:06] Enus Linden: templates will be provided
• [10:06] Enus Linden: speaking of templates
• [10:06] Enus Linden: Data
• [10:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: I would like to chime in with contributions but have to catch up first.
• [10:06] Enus Linden: data for use in test cases
• [10:06] Enus Linden: yay bartholemew!
• [10:07] Enus Linden: data: we cannot store any agent related data in the repo
• [10:07] Enus Linden: ever
• [10:07] Enus Linden: except for my now deprecated password in earlier revs
• [10:07] Enus Linden: :D
• [10:07] Enus Linden: we need to come up with a template for data structure
• [10:07] Enus Linden: and actual contents are up to the dev/tester
• [10:07] Enus Linden: i propose llsd
• [10:07] Enus Linden: makes sense
• [10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: well you WOULD
• [10:08] Enus Linden: in this context imo
• [10:08] Tao Takashi: we also should define what's in pyogp
• [10:09] Tao Takashi: like right now I see the library and the test harness
• [10:09] Tao Takashi: and we should make clear what we are talking about :)
• [10:09] Enus Linden: that's my next steps Tao, make available 'what we're talking about'
• [10:10] Herbert Hoggard: Have to go. CU ;-)
• [10:10] Tao Takashi: Barth: We can make a sprint here in Aachen or in Cologne ;-)
• [10:10] Tao Takashi: and you all should consider coming to EuroPython :)
• [10:10] Bartholomew Kleiber: that's cool
• [10:10] Enus Linden: should pyogp support login to non ogp enabled grids? i would like that myself...
• [10:10] Tao Takashi: I will give a presentation on this stuff there anyway
• [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: that would be trivial
• [10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: at least at first
• [10:11] Tao Takashi: Enus: Well, maybe we can create a legacy module for doing this. it wouldn't be much work indeed as it's mainly XML-RPC
• [10:11] Tao Takashi: yep :)
• [10:11] Tao Takashi: at some point it grows together then I guess
• [10:11] Enus Linden: we collectively would have much use for 'legacy' lib functionality and test cases
• [10:11] Enus Linden: and only login and teleport vary intitially
• [10:11] Tao Takashi: btw, is pyogp.lib.base ok as a name? and we could then have pyogp.lib.legacy
• [10:11] Enus Linden: sweeet.
• [10:12] Enus Linden: sounds good to me tao
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: and pyogp.lib.inventory should it grow bigger and shoudl it make sense to make it a separate egg
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: those names will result in separate packages you can install btw
• [10:12] Enus Linden: ok
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: like easy_install pyogp.lib.base
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: they might have dependancies which installs other packages
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: like eventlet
• [10:12] Enus Linden: I'd also like eggs for agent d and region d
• [10:13] Enus Linden: region d would also have a legacy component yes?
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: the testharness could then be in pyogp.testharness.*
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: depends on what you expect it to do
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: I personally will start some pyogp.agentdomain which I hope to become a full functioning agent domain
• [10:13] Enus Linden: well, Tess would like to be able to use this codebass to test between an egnetd and simulator, without having to login
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: or at least something you can easily hook into your python web app
• [10:14] Enus Linden: i'd like the same
• [10:14] Zha Ewry: perks at Tao
• [10:14] Enus Linden: agentd = egnetd of course
• [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: we also need to work out that bloody gorup IM protocol
• [10:14] Enus Linden: :P Sai
• [10:14] Tao Takashi: we have to work out lots of things ;-)
• [10:14] Enus Linden: group chat bots
• [10:14] Tao Takashi: but first on the protocol level anyway
• [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: and THAT would make pyogp useful to all citizens overnight
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: 50,000 beta testers using pyogp to login and for group IM only
• [10:15] Enus Linden: so I think we can draw pyogp discussion to a close for now? zca + buildout + eggs are in? all in favor
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: /raise
• [10:15] Enus Linden: done
• [10:15] Enus Linden: lol
• [10:15] Enus Linden: sai you are the decider
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: just call me dumbya
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: er, dubya
• [10:16] Enus Linden: i'll start on 'spec' and roadmap and will make links available for discussion
• [10:16] Enus Linden: i'd like to have a separate office hour that i run available for this and other topics... is friday at 10 sl time reasonable for those interested?
• [10:17] Enus Linden: (awesome boots leyla)
• [10:17] Leyla Linden: tx :-)
• [10:17] Tao Takashi: /raise :)
• [10:17] Tao Takashi: 10am?
• [10:17] Enus Linden: yeah
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: That sounds great
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: it would also be good to know how we go about the repository then
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: 10 sounds ok with me but let me check my calendar :)
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: looks good
• [10:18] Enus Linden: ah yes Tao. I need to talk to robla on how to check about contributor agreement signings, and can enable commit access for individuals
• [10:18] Zha Ewry: Wow, Layla, are you wearing those booots, or are they wearin you?
• [10:19] Enus Linden: I'll take care of that today or tomorrow
• [10:19] Leyla Linden: hah, possibly the latter, they're from way back when i first started here
• [10:19] Tao Takashi: ok, thanks Enus
• [10:19] Enus Linden: in the meantime, Tao, if you wnat to shoot me a zip of pyogp, i can throw in in there. up to you
• [10:20] Enus Linden: can i just grab from google code?
• [10:20] Enus Linden: i've gotta through license related stuff all over the place anyhow....
• [10:20] Enus Linden: throw*
• [10:21] Enus Linden: </pyogpdiscussion>
• [10:21] Enus Linden: for now?
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: well, I can do that but I might code on that further of course should I have time
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: and it's simply svn so you can also simply check it out
• [10:22] Tao Takashi: the thing is that the buildout also hosts externals and such
• [10:22] Tao Takashi: so it's not simply a zip maybe
• [10:22] Enus Linden: i'll wait until you can commit then, and will work on that to the extent that i can today
• [10:22] Enus Linden: thanks for teh awesomeness tao
• [10:23] Enus Linden: Zha: next up is.....?
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: Two quick hits, as we're not long on time...
• [10:24] Tao Takashi: well, I would say, just keep going Enus, esp. with new stuff and I can incorporate it then
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: One, we've sort of actually hit a lot
• [10:24] Zha Ewry: Which is plans for testing on Agent Domain
• [10:25] Zha Ewry: as in a pthton versino of same
• [10:25] Enus Linden: pyogp.lib.agentdomain
• [10:25] Tao Takashi: well, for now I think we mainly concentrate on the test harness which can test whatever external agent or region domain (to what extend it's specified in whatever protocol that is)
• [10:26] Tao Takashi: and we might need some library for doing these tests which is then pyogp.lib.*
• [10:26] Movies1963 Beck: [8]
• [10:26] Tao Takashi: so you mean how far the plans for an agent domain in Python are?
• [10:26] Zha Ewry: nods
• [10:26] Tao Takashi: well, I was thinking about it and started some code but not much yet.
• [10:27] Zha Ewry: The other. which is a more interesting question.. is a polite request, to start thinkign about how we want to manage a "safe" test grid in terms of content
• [10:27] Rex Cronon: "safe" in what way?
• [10:27] Enus Linden: shudders as the politeness
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: Not holding any content which would be an IPR issue
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: As, the roadmap Zero's running on
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: gets us some stuff tested before we have a full right scheme in place
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: So, for example
• [10:28] Zha Ewry: When we're doing interop testing, once we'll move stuff?
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: I'll be using an Alt, with no content from any SL stores, just default systemn stuff
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: But.. ideally, we'd have a small grid, with an asset server, which only has that stuff on it
• [10:29] Zha Ewry: So, it doesn't even become an issue
• [10:30] Zha Ewry: Since, we're goign to sort out all those issues in time, it would be nice to not feed the fears of the content creators. nor get sucked into a sideshow aboutr that
• [10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: is a great barker for sideshows...
• [10:31] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [10:31] Zha Ewry: Yes, you've held a lovely one or two in Jira, this month
• [10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: amazing noise to signl ratio there
• [10:32] Tao Takashi: well, do we need some contribution agreement for such content?
• [10:32] BlueWall Slade: word is that Fashion Research Institute will be providing some content for OSGrid....
• [10:32] Zha Ewry: I think the goal, here, is just to get the thought on the table, and keep it somewhat in mind
• [10:32] Tao Takashi: we can also make some call for content
• [10:32] BlueWall Slade: so you might even find some willing content developers to participate
• [10:32] Tao Takashi: or I can simply provide my stuff ;-)
• [10:33] Tao Takashi: well, I think it won't be such a big problem but you are right, we should keep this in mind and not suddenly copy whatever stuff from SL to this grid
• [10:33] Zha Ewry: I don't think it is a serious problem, if we're at all careful
• [10:34] Zha Ewry: What I'd like to avoid, is the sudden posting of "Look at me on OpenSim in my Linden SL content" snaps which would be contentious
• [10:34] Elric Ember: cringes at the thought
• [10:35] Zha Ewry: nods
• [10:36] Tao Takashi: not that somebody can nevertheless stage such a photo ;)
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: shrugs
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: Well, sure
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: The point is sort of two fold
• [10:36] Rex Cronon: i don't thik that "they" need to stage it
• [10:36] Tao Takashi: well, we at least should make sure it's not our fault
• [10:36] Zha Ewry: exactly
• [10:37] Tao Takashi: when there are grids running there also will be people who will copy stuff around with whatever mechanism
• [10:37] BlueWall Slade: could the assets be hosted on teh OpenSim side?
• [10:37] Tao Takashi: which will be the main discussion point about open grids anyway. But you can do this right now already anyway
• [10:38] Zha Ewry: Well
• [10:38] Zha Ewry: You can have plenty of openSim locla content
• [10:38] Zha Ewry: what we don't want to do, is , int he course, of working out and testign asset stuff, to end up copying stuff which isn't intended to move
• [10:38] BlueWall Slade: yes, understood
• [10:39] Rex Cronon: is there any way right now, for somebody to copy scripts from here to other grids? my understanding is that u can't do that yet. right?
• [10:39] Zha Ewry: I'm basically going to be reminding people of this, over the next few weeks, to get it into everyone's head al ittle bit
• [10:39] Zha Ewry: And, no, there isn't Rex, tho, at some point, that becomes an interestign question
• [10:39] Enus Linden: has to run, but would love to see where the content discussion goes. will someone post a transcript to wiki please?
• [10:40] Tao Takashi: take care Enus, thanks for managing the pyogp stuff :)
• [10:40] Zha Ewry: I think we'r emostly done, for now
• [10:40] Zha Ewry: Just raising people's awareness ;-)
• [10:40] Rex Cronon: bye enus
• [10:40] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
• [10:40] BlueWall Slade: Even though it would probably get out of hand, would it be helpful to start a VAG for socio-economic issues re: interop?
• [10:41] BlueWall Slade: for the non-techs
• [10:41] Enus Linden: waves
• [10:42] Zha Ewry: Ok, Off to bash code, and think about lunch
• [10:42] Zha Ewry: Thanks for a great conversation Tao, Enus
• [10:42] Rex Cronon: bye zha
• [10:42] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye zha
• [10:42] Rex Cronon: i have to go too, so bye eveyrbody