AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08

[12:52] Tess Linden: wow hey everyone
[12:52] Tess Linden: you're here early :)
[12:52] Gareth Ellison: wow
[12:52] Yianni Piaggio: hiya tess...
[12:52] Tammy Nowotny: hello
[12:52] Gareth Ellison: lots more people than usual :)
[12:52] Joshua Nightshade: hey Tess.
[12:52] Yuu Nakamichi: hi tess
[12:52] Ghost Menjou: Hello Tess
[12:52] Joshua Nightshade: hey Zha.
[12:52] DevilMayCare Jetaime: Blessings ;)
[12:52] Zha Ewry: Hello evryone
[12:53] Tammy Nowotny: waves to Zha
[12:53] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
[12:53] Zha Ewry: mutters at the oddly frozen chair
[12:53] Yianni Piaggio: hello whump..
[12:53] Julie Wasserstrom: Hello Tess
[12:53] Yianni Piaggio: hello hamilton
[12:53] Hamilton Linden: Hi guys
[12:53] Yianni Piaggio: eesh HELLO ALL LINDEN LOL
[12:53] Gareth Ellison: before this party starts - can i just ask if we're going to end up explaining things to the many new people present or if it'll be possible to go into some details on the TP flow and other issues?
[12:53] Joshua Nightshade: Hi Hamilton.
[12:53] Ghost Menjou: Now I'm excited with the Teleport test that was conducted...Would the actual SL econonmy suffer from from having "free" sims?
[12:54] Whump Linden: Hey folks.
[12:54] Zha Ewry: pops off to grab water, before the chaos begins
[12:54] Joshua Nightshade: and Whump and Lock!
[12:54] Ghost Menjou: Just something that has been keeping me up the last few days
[12:54] Locklainn Linden: hey all
[12:54] Morgaine Dinova: hey lock
[12:54] Gareth Ellison: buggy chair....
[12:54] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Hamilton
[12:54] Ghost Menjou: Whumps breathing is creepy
[12:55] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:55] Gareth Ellison: so - will we being discussing stuff properly - do we have an agenda this week?
[12:55] Tammy Nowotny: hello
[12:55] Joshua Nightshade: hey Cel. :)
[12:55] Tess Linden: I'd like to talk more about the technology of SL and Interop, but if theres a lot of new people here who wants some background we should do intros too
[12:55] Cel Edman: Hi people
[12:55] Harleen Gretzky: Scripts and collisions are disabled for the entire region of Grasmere (maybe Hamilton can fix :))
[12:55] Arcadia Jonson: Hi all...
[12:55] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Tess
[12:55] Harleen Gretzky: (or Tess)
[12:55] Tammy Nowotny: I thought they were on at place I Tped to
[12:56] Gareth Ellison: ok, i had some more detailed queries on the TP flow, some of the ordering (such as sim A being told sim B's uri for de_rez) don't make sense
[12:56] Tess Linden: Harleen: might be a good thing since we've had griefer instances
[12:56] Whump Linden: sorry
[12:56] Tammy Nowotny: I didn't bother with the SLURL, though: I just TPed somewhere near the clouds of dots
[12:56] Harleen Gretzky: OK
[12:56] Gareth Ellison: could leave that talk to next week if this week is mainly going to be for newbie explanations
[12:56] Gareth Ellison: tess?
[12:57] Tess Linden: well - has anyone here not already heard about the press release?
[12:57] Yianni Piaggio: press release?
[12:57] Julie Wasserstrom: I have not heard about it
[12:57] Dahlia Trimble: the blog entry?
[12:57] Tammy Nowotny: which one? perahaps I need to be brefered on it
[12:58] Topher Zwiers: [1]
[12:58] Tammy Nowotny: *briefed
[12:58] Topher Zwiers: I'm guessing...
[12:58] Tess Linden: theres the link
[12:58] Tess Linden: thanks Topher
[12:58] Topher Zwiers: np
[12:58] Tammy Nowotny: I saw that blog posting I think
[12:59] Tess Linden: Zero's Office Hours are where we usually discuss topics relating to the technology of what we've been owrking on
[12:59] Zha Ewry: notices scripts off on the sim and sighs
[13:00] Tess Linden: doh, that's why you cant sit on the chair Zha?
[13:00] Topher Zwiers: Tess.. are there office hours during which discussions are more of a big picture? where things are going? what this may mean in terms of interoperability in teh long run? when/how assets may at some point port? etc....
[13:00] Gareth Ellison: give that Topher an orange!
[13:00] Adam Zaius: Back
[13:00] Gareth Ellison: we need such office hours
[13:01] Morgaine Dinova: Zero will do a metanomics interview on this soon, I believe
[13:01] Tess Linden: Topher: all these issues are definitely related, and have been discussed here or at the AWG meetings on Tuesdays
[13:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[13:02] Dahlia Trimble: hi Rex :)
[13:02] Topher Zwiers: Thanks Tess.. .will check that meeting as well..
[13:02] Rex Cronon: hi:)
[13:02] Gareth Ellison: Tess - we were just discussing topher's point in group chat, we need 2 kinds of meetings: technical and non-technical, with questions of policy or general explanation in the latter
[13:02] Joshua Nightshade: Is Zero participating today?
[13:02] Tess Linden: Zero is out on vacation this week and I will be substituting today
[13:02] Joshua Nightshade: Thanks Tess. :)
[13:02] Adam Zaius: Cool
[13:03] Tess Linden: sorry -- reading backlog from AWG channel
[13:03] DevilMayCare Jetaime: *wonders if the arms monk is Tess's bodyguard*
[13:04] Tammy Nowotny: we had an oldskool particle spam attack last time at pooley with Zero
[13:04] Tammy Nowotny: the same attack tuerned up at SL5B as well
[13:04] Tess Linden: Gareth also wanted to talk about details of the teleport flow, so I can address that as well
[13:04] Joshua Nightshade: Physical prim attack as well.
[13:04] Gareth Ellison: yay
[13:05] Tammy Nowotny: you don'ts ee those too often... the particle spam at S:5B almist seemd to be deliberately part of the festivities. albeit an unofficial one.
[13:05] Tess Linden: so to start with Topher's question, what is the bigger picture of Interoperability between grids?
[13:06] paulie Femto: Howdeh, all.
[13:06] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:06] Dahlia Trimble: Hi Paulie :)
[13:06] Tess Linden: How will assets work in the long run? What does Linden Lab mean when we say that "We will be designing this with the Second Life community to ensure their needs are met" ?
[13:07] paulie Femto: thx, D. :)
[13:07] Zha Ewry: What does it mean, when we talk about lots of different virtual worlds connecting?
[13:08] Arcadia Jonson: I was at SL5B for two of the attacks...both claimed by the PN....
[13:08] Tess Linden: As evidenced by this Proof of Concept, we were very careful about not transfering any assets from the Second Life grid outwards
[13:08] Rex Cronon: particles, physics attacks happen everyday. nothing unusual
[13:09] Tess Linden: because Second Life does have copy protection against assets, we have a permissions system that may not be honored by external grids that we don't have a trust relationship with
[13:09] Gareth Ellison: (offtopic) turn max particles down to 0, very few particle effects are so amazing that the lag is worth it
[13:09] Joshua Nightshade: (guys can we keep the off topic chat in the group chat please? :D)
[13:10] Arcadia Jonson: So Tess...is the viewer for OpenLife a violation of copyright laws....???
[13:10] Tess Linden: we did the Interopability testing with Zha and Pixel from IBM, and we've been very careful about any type of asset transfers including your avatars
[13:10] Arcadia Jonson: It's very similar to SL's...
[13:10] Cel Edman: Well Tess, this means, also opengrid servers going to marked to 'trusted by linden' or like non-trusted?
[13:10] Tess Linden: Arcadia: I would have to defer to someone on the legal team to answer that
[13:11] Arcadia Jonson: Oh...OK...
[13:11] Gareth Ellison: Arcadia - if they release source for their modifications, no
[13:11] Gareth Ellison: read the licensing FAQ and other stuff on the wiki and on secondlifegrid.net
[13:11] Tomato Contepomi: Any thought to a technical protocol that would allow grids to mutually trust one another?
[13:11] Adam Zaius: Arcadia: OpenLife just uses the realxtend viewer -- the source is availible on the realxtend sourceforge page (and rex.org too)
[13:12] Gareth Ellison: tomato brings up a massive issue - so far, OGP spec says nothing about trust relations and i'm told the test used a whitelist system for valid sim IPs
[13:12] Tammy Nowotny: I bought something from Chip Midnight on the beta grid... which is a separate grid... and was unable to bring it back to the main grid... I didn't much like it anyway
[13:12] Tammy Nowotny: and the beta tes grid is presumably "trusted"
[13:13] Tomato Contepomi: Ah Tammy, but the economy is seeparate on the beta grid
[13:13] Tess Linden: Cel: yes, but be careful with trusted and non-trusted. This is specifically pertaining to assets that have permissions bits set on them that currently limit certain actions in Second Life
[13:13] Morgaine Dinova: the one nomrallay accesible is. But there is a special grid for interop testing. Think that has special issues
[13:13] Gareth Ellison: in future we need a default state where any grid can be connected to, but only trusted grids will be able to get certain assets, or assets tagged "can export anywhere" can go to untrusted grids
[13:13] Joshua Nightshade: Err, the beta grid is a snapshot used for testing.
[13:13] Goldie Katsu: That's definitely something that needs to be defined.
[13:13] Zha Ewry: Protocos for estblishign trust, and manging policy for assets and such, is one of the major topics we're going to be talkign about in the AWGroupies group, over the next several weeks
[13:13] Tess Linden: but assets/objects that are fully permissible, and were intended to be moved off-grid should be able to freely move around
[13:14] Gareth Ellison: how will the beta test towards the end of this month work? are there any solid plans for that yet?
[13:14] Morgaine Dinova: perhaps onl LL default inventory can appear in an avies inventory when they log into that beta grid
[13:14] DevilMayCare Jetaime: *SL doesnt even trust me to use assets from my own alts*
[13:14] Francisco Aker: sling
[13:14] Tess Linden: Gareth: I can defer to Whump for questions on the Beta grid
[13:14] Tammy Nowotny: will the existing means of exporting textures/pics (e.g., postcards and file downlaods) still be operable in the future?
[13:14] Tomato Contepomi: DevilMayCare: this is also an issue with virtual identities
[13:14] Hamilton Linden: There has been discussion of adding a bit that would allow content creators to specify if the items they created could be taken off grid
[13:14] Goldie Katsu: There is no trust model defined to allow assets to be shared between alts. :)
[13:15] Whump Linden: Gareth, until we have a signup mechanism on the web, if you're interested in participating in the beta, please drop me a note card with that info, as well as an email address you're comfortable with using for a mailing list.
[13:15] Gareth Ellison: i'm basically interested if it'll be possible to connect an external region domain or agent domain up to aditi without tons of red tape
[13:15] Gareth Ellison: ok
[13:15] Hamilton Linden: hopefully an email isn't red tape :-)
[13:15] Whump Linden: Once we are underway, I'll be your contact for issues and help with debugging your interop.
[13:16] Whump Linden: there will be an inworld group as well for announcments
[13:16] Zha Ewry: It would be cool, if the TOS didn't say doing interop testing was a violation ;-)
[13:16] Adam Zaius: Yes
[13:16] Adam Zaius: fixing the TOS there would be nice
[13:16] Tess Linden: yes, what Hamilton said. So far there are 2 issues at hand. 1. for objects that retain permissions, we need a way for an external to SL grid to establish a trust relationship with Second Life, and 2. we need a way for objects to indicate a "non-permissive" bit to allow it to other worlds that may not maintain permissions
[13:16] Joshua Nightshade: The ToS needs clarification on a lot of fronts.
[13:16] Gareth Ellison: yes
[13:16] Gareth Ellison: TOS 4.2
[13:16] Tess Linden: hrm, I'll put that on our list
[13:16] Joshua Nightshade: Thanks Tess. :)
[13:16] Whump Linden: I will be holding office hours inworld and debug/sprint sessions in IRC multiple times a week.
[13:16] Gareth Ellison: needs to be clarified - i've been pestering numerous lindens and had the request forwarded to lawyers about that - no response yet
[13:17] Whump Linden: schedule is TBD.
[13:17] Tess Linden: does someone have the clause in the TOS that says that?
[13:17] Adam Zaius: Something about you shall not connect third party simulators to the service
[13:17] Tess Linden: Whump: which IRC?
[13:17] Joshua Nightshade: It's 4.2 I think.
[13:18] Zha Ewry: one secdond, it's in 4
[13:18] Gareth Ellison: it's 4.2
[13:18] Adam Zaius: Yeah, you guys should maybe setup an irc channel on freenode
[13:18] Adam Zaius: That would be helpful
[13:18] Adam Zaius: #icehouse or something. ;)
[13:18] Gareth Ellison: trust me on this, i know way too much about 4.2 having been pestering for ages
[13:18] Tess Linden: we'll figure it out and let everyone know
[13:19] Joshua Nightshade: Tess if possible there's also the concern over full perm items as well and what that means for assets being taken out of SL. If you can add that to the list of clarifications that would be much appreciated.
[13:19] Charlesk Bing: There is another issue to add and that is that the same folks may have different avatar names on external grids then on the maingrid.
[13:20] paulie Femto: I resemble that remark. ;)
[13:20] Tess Linden: Joshua: earlier my #2. was referring to an additional permissions bit from what we have now, which will be "besides allowing fully permissive, do you also allow this object to be taken to another grid that may not maintain permissions?"
[13:20] Gareth Ellison: full perms items, generally are understood as full perms within SL
[13:20] Adam Zaius: We might want to shift naming of avatars to the hostname format.
[13:20] Adam Zaius: ie, adam.zaius@osgrid.org / adam.zaius@agents.secondlife.com / etc.
[13:20] Charlesk Bing: That would probably make a lot of sense.
[13:21] Gareth Ellison: adam - i'll be stabbing you later for making me say this, but i agree with you on that format
[13:21] Tomato Contepomi: So mutually trusting grids would delegate the authentication to one another?
[13:21] BlueWall Slade: the UUID is the real identifier though
[13:21] Tess Linden: Charlesk: Lets talk about that now, and make sure we get to Gareth's topic at 1:40 or so
[13:21] Joshua Nightshade: Tess: Right, but I meant more for what LL's current stance is regarding that. As in right now there are tools that are being used to take full perm items outside of SL and into the OpenSim-based grids.
[13:21] Gareth Ellison: (my topic should be fairly small btw)
[13:21] Tess Linden: Adam: I'm thinking that there needs to be a way to associate Tess Linden in SL with Tess Linden on osgrid
[13:21] Gareth Ellison: we need a human-readable unique ID too
[13:22] Morgaine Dinova: Whump will you be affiliated with pyogp in any way?
[13:22] Topher Zwiers: Tess re: "need a way for an external to SL grid to establish trust" - is there a possibility that LL may at some point have "certificates" (for a fee) to connect /establish trust relationship b/n OpenSim and SL main grid?
[13:22] Adam Zaius: UUID's are NOT a good valid identifier.
[13:22] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[13:22] Tomato Contepomi: That's a problem on the general Internet as well
[13:22] Adam Zaius: Since I can say I'm 00000-00000-00000 and someone else can say the same thing
[13:22] Zha Ewry: UUIDs, with no tie to the orghinator, isn't very good at all
[13:22] Adam Zaius: There's no validation without a big central authority
[13:22] Gareth Ellison: if i'm Gareth Ellison here, but someone on randomgrid.com is also Gareth Ellison, then what happens if i turn up on randomgrid.com?
[13:22] Adam Zaius: which is also a bad idea.
[13:22] Gareth Ellison: the hostname format is good
[13:22] Tammy Nowotny: and is that abad thing or a good thing, Jioshua?
[13:22] BlueWall Slade: must have teh origion, yes
[13:22] Gareth Ellison: or even a mix of UUID and hostname, but that seems a bit redundant
[13:22] Tess Linden: Topher: its possible yes
[13:22] Charlesk Bing: Gareth. You are sol.
[13:22] Goldie Katsu: Well ideally both of you could be Gareth Ellison
[13:22] BlueWall Slade: but we should allow 2,000,000 John Smith's
[13:22] Zha Ewry: and. dns style/scoping/ or rfc822, style scoping, isn't bad at all
[13:23] Topher Zwiers: and in re: linking avatars on different systems - is there any early provisions in OG protocol for linking avs? so that when one teleports from SL to WOW - the avatar changes to the representation of the world TP'ed into?
[13:23] Goldie Katsu: Just like there can be two John Smith's in a town.
[13:23] Gareth Ellison: i should be Gareth.Ellison@secondlife.com
[13:23] Gareth Ellison: to indicate which Gareth Ellison i am
[13:23] Joshua Nightshade: does WoW count as a virtual world in this context? :P
[13:23] Gareth Ellison: then there can be only one Gareth Ellison on SL
[13:23] Zha Ewry: Actually, Gareth, probably, "Gareth.ellison@agni.sexcondlife.com"
[13:23] Tammy Nowotny: and of course cybersquatting laws may apply
[13:23] Goldie Katsu: I do think we will need a 4th domain (beyond viewer, agent domain, and region domain.)
[13:23] Gareth Ellison: there can be only one! <manic laughter>
[13:24] Goldie Katsu: One that ties user to multiple agents.
[13:24] Zha Ewry: Since you're authenticaed by the agni grid
[13:24] Tess Linden: right now, if you TP using the protocol and SL avatar to an OpenSim region, you don't have an OpenSim buddy list and you cant IM anyone there
[13:24] BlueWall Slade: sexcondlife.com??
[13:24] Topher Zwiers: I don't want to necessarily be Topher Zwiers in other VW's but I'd like to move between them, seamlessly... just assume my identity in that space once I arrive ;-)
[13:24] Gareth Ellison: i can't think of a legit reason to have more than one GAreth Ellison at the domai nsecondlife.com
[13:24] Gareth Ellison: excuse lag tyops
[13:25] Gareth Ellison: @secondlife.com, and then DNS records or other methods are used to narrow down the authentication server used for accounts on secondlife.com
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: what if people want their real names
[13:25] Gareth Ellison: Gareth.Nelson@mydomain.com
[13:25] Zha Ewry: if the issuing grid, wants to permit that? Sure.
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: our presence here like an entry in a phone book?
[13:25] Gareth Ellison: Gareth.Nelson@somerandomgrid.com
[13:25] Tomato Contepomi: This starts sounding like OpenId...
[13:25] Zha Ewry: A lot of disucssion on OpenID has been suggested
[13:25] Tammy Nowotny: what do you do (which happens with just the one grid) idf someone cybersquats someone eles'e sname.... what if Karl Rover started an avi caleld Barack Obama, for example?
[13:25] Tess Linden: Topher: we've been thinking about how that might work, to be Tess Linden @SL as well as Tess Linden on osgrid
[13:26] Gareth Ellison: it's different from OpenID, you carry profile data alongside mere ID
[13:26] Tess Linden: and be online at the same time maybe
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: is working up categories to index varoius chatlogs will post later
[13:26] Goldie Katsu: yes.
[13:26] Charlesk Bing: It is possible this may end up in the OpenID direction.
[13:26] BlueWall Slade: each operating grid could be assigned a UUID, like a MAC address
[13:26] Tomato Contepomi: Yes, but the delegation works in a similar way
[13:26] Gareth Ellison: ideally, you have a URL or CAP you can generate which can be passed to other grids to say "this is my home agent domain"
[13:26] Gareth Ellison: bluewall - they can be spoofed
[13:26] Tess Linden: the problem with OpenID for this use is that you cant be online with both at the same time, and actually consolidate your information
[13:26] Topher Zwiers: I was going to suggest something along those lines... if there was an OpenGrid server through which I could create an identity and then indicate in that space my accounts in various spaces - SecondLife, ActiveWorlds, WebkinzWorld - whatever - that when I teleport from one to the next, it uses that data to authenticate me in the landing grid.
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: htats called teh Agent Domain, Topher
[13:27] Tomato Contepomi: I would be happier with a private/public key scheme (where the "identity" is a private key)
[13:27] Gareth Ellison: you start on grid A, you tell grid A you're moving, and then tell grid B you want to connect
[13:27] Tomato Contepomi: But the implementation would be very hard
[13:27] Gareth Ellison: and i just realised, having thought about it that i've answered part of my own question i had planned (but only part!)
[13:27] Topher Zwiers: Saij - appreciate the terminology...
[13:27] BlueWall Slade: you login - get a session key from your authenticating grid, then carry the key with you from grid to grid to grid
[13:27] Goldie Katsu: I think we need a clearer picture of what the trust domains are and what each domain is certifying
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Its already implemented in baby form for the login and TP between SL and OpenSim
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: tomato - signed ID is a good idea, but it should be optional for high-security or high-paranoia users
[13:28] Tess Linden: Now, looking back and the original design for agent and region domains, you would have to log into both agent domains, and they would interoperate with each other and then together log you into a region
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: slaps zha and mentions "release the patches" again
[13:28] Tomato Contepomi: I agree
[13:28] Adam Zaius: The patches are availible
[13:28] Adam Zaius: OpenSim Mantis #1696
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: the patches are available now? :O
[13:28] Gareth Ellison: should pay more attention.....
[13:29] Joshua Nightshade: shun him!
[13:29] Adam Zaius: Haha
[13:29] Goldie Katsu: THat seems to imply agent domains are tied to region domains, is that an accurate perception of the design?
[13:29] Tess Linden: but if we started down that path now, we would have no functionality initially. All you would be able to do is Login and TP between virtual worlds, but not interoperate some of the key features like IM or inventory transfer
[13:29] Goldie Katsu: or is that a current limitation of the migration?
[13:29] Gareth Ellison: goldie - it'll not be enforced at all, but most region domains will have their own agent domains
[13:29] Zha Ewry: Patch is on mantis, Gareth
[13:29] Gareth Ellison: zha - so i heard from adam ;)
[13:30] Aramis Tolsen: [2]
[13:30] Morgaine Dinova: The Region of Origin (ROI)
[13:30] Gareth Ellison: yeah, i get the point on mantis now
[13:30] Morgaine Dinova: ROO
[13:30] Zha Ewry: And. my assumption, is, based on some OpenSim discussion that the agent/region, domain packaging, probably needs to be very fluid
[13:30] Gareth Ellison: mumbles
[13:30] Tess Linden: yay! thanks Zha!
[13:30] Goldie Katsu: would recommend the fluid linkage model myself.
[13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: goes glassy eyed trying to figure out how to illustrate this using flash
[13:31] Joshua Nightshade: heh.
[13:32] Zha Ewry: It is, remarkably crufty code, but it does work, and the cruft level has been slowly dropping, as I sort out how to do it more cleanly ;-)
[13:33] Dahlia Trimble: yikes cruft!!
[13:33] Dahlia Trimble: cringes
[13:33] Tess Linden: okay -- are we ready to move on to Gareth's question?
[13:33] Zha Ewry: Honesty compells mention of cruft ;-)
[13:33] Gareth Ellison: yeah - i said it's fairly short:
[13:34] Gareth Ellison: reading the wiki article for the TP flow strawman
[13:34] Tammy Nowotny: at least yiu are reducing the cruft factor, Zha
[13:34] Gareth Ellison: and derez_avatar is being passed from agent to sim A with cap for sim B
[13:34] Gareth Ellison: then sim A talks to sim B (which could be on another region domain)
[13:35] Gareth Ellison: my question is, why is derez_avatar not invoked by the agent? it seems that there'll be times when we'll literally want to derez an avatar while remaining present on the agent domain
[13:35] Gareth Ellison: and it also seems that it's not sim A's task really to talk to sim B on the agent's behalf
[13:35] Gareth Ellison: what was the reasoning behind the design on the wiki? and is it the same design used in practice for zha et al's test?
[13:36] Tess Linden: Gareth: good question. For "log out of region, but stay logged into agent domain" you may indicate a Null region_url
[13:36] Tess Linden: or empty :P
[13:36] Zha Ewry: You have several cases, you can, in fact, de-rez with a null region
[13:36] Zha Ewry: races tess to the answer ;-)
[13:37] Gareth Ellison: of course, de_rez being passed a region uri seems odd: since it's really not "derez" but "derez and then rez"
[13:37] Zha Ewry: for a normal TP, the rez/de-rez are paired, so you exit one region, as you enter the next..
[13:37] Gareth Ellison: it seems logically you should be splitting it into 2 operations, and then possibly having 1 function that invokes them both, but not enforcing it
[13:37] paulie Femto: thx, Blue. :)
[13:37] Tess Linden: the reason why sim A directly talks to sim B for rezzing and derezzing is because sim B is getting all the "avatar" data (different from agent) directly from sim A
[13:37] Zha Ewry: The underlying call, actually, does what you'd expect,
[13:38] Zha Ewry: "You call to the far sim, and get the results of the rez, and pass them along, as part of the de-rez"
[13:38] Gareth Ellison: then why do we not have avatar data stored in agent domain (after all, it's agent-specific really) and agent sends a cap which allows sim B to download it?
[13:38] Latha Serevi: thinks of joint positions
[13:38] Tess Linden: Gareth: we do have your avatar data in the agent domain, but while you're being simulated by a simulator, your simulator knows the latest
[13:39] Tess Linden: if you trust the region you are on to simulate your avatar, you should trust it to pass your avatar onto the next sim
[13:39] Zha Ewry: You'd also be adding an extra point of both delay and failure to a process
[13:39] Zha Ewry: One more place where you can drop the ball
[13:39] Charlesk Bing: Is there only one "Agent Domain" for all grids or does each grid have an "Agent Domain" ?
[13:39] Tess Linden: +1 Zha
[13:40] Zha Ewry: I think that's open CharlesK, if you ask me.. multiple, not necessaitly one to one
[13:40] Tess Linden: yea, thats a tough question to get right
[13:40] Zha Ewry: A lot of use cases look to me like they would be very hard to do with just one
[13:40] Zha Ewry: But.. a lot of utility happens,w hen you can spin up a region without needing an AD for it
[13:40] Zha Ewry: So.. I'm betting it's a mix
[13:40] Gareth Ellison: it looks like we could see issues if sim A handles things improperly, at what point is avatar data saved back in the agent domain?
[13:40] Charlesk Bing: Is it fair to say that the trust relationships are perhaps going to be established from "Agent Domain" to "Agent Domain" ?
[13:41] Gareth Ellison: how often is it sync'ed or if it's not sync'ed on a timer, what event triggers it?
[13:41] BlueWall Slade: Zha, anonymous regions?
[13:41] Latha Serevi: Blue, sounds more like residentless regions
[13:41] Zha Ewry: Well, trgions, which deffer AD to another regoins
[13:41] Charlesk Bing: One could argue that anonymous regions are merely "untrusted", I suppose.
[13:41] Tess Linden: Avatar data should be saved back whenever operations are performed that changes it, I think, but may be different depending on the region you're connected to and its relationship wiht the agent domain
[13:42] Zha Ewry: I think, a lot of grids are going to suppot thier own ADs
[13:42] BlueWall Slade: ok, like a 3d wikipedia entry/exhibit?
[13:42] Zha Ewry: but. I want too be able to spin up a very lightrweigh chunk of land, and simply have a trust agreement with a grid I like
[13:42] Gareth Ellison: so, if it's saved whenever you change it, the agent domain and region should always be in sync, and so sim A doesn't really have the latest
[13:42] Zha Ewry: So. both cases feel rleevent
[13:42] Gareth Ellison: :)
[13:42] Tomato Contepomi: It's likely that there will be very heterogeneous services one day...
[13:43] Tess Linden: Gareth: everyone should have the latest
[13:43] Charlesk Bing: Perhaps an analogy is along the lines of countries issuing passports to go to other countries which implies certain rights and responsibilities?
[13:43] Charlesk Bing: Some countries may have more of a relationship then others?
[13:44] Gareth Ellison: tess - then i come back to the point, why does the agent not simply de_rez on sim A and then do rez_avatar on sim B? rather than having sim A act as proxy
[13:44] Zha Ewry: I think that's one model CK
[13:44] Julie Wasserstrom: As in the real world, would it be possible to track the trustworthiness of different sims/regions over time?
[13:44] Tess Linden: Gareth: what Zha said earlier about having another level of indirection
[13:44] Gareth Ellison: if sim A is ever untrusted (it could happen, and will) then you could potentially not be able to TP out of "Bob's griefer HQ"
[13:44] Gareth Ellison: right now you can hit TP home
[13:45] Gareth Ellison: but that's only because although the sim acts as proxy, on SL they're all trsuted
[13:45] Gareth Ellison: *trusted
[13:45] Harleen Gretzky: You could always log out and back into your home sim
[13:46] Zha Ewry: Well, the rez-In request gives you a cap for de-rez, and its going to be an interesting world when you go to an untrusted sim :-)
[13:46] Gareth Ellison: harleen - you could, but why not simplify things from the start by putting the task of connecting to sim B in the client's hands?
[13:46] Tess Linden: Gareth: when you TP over and you look different you will notice right? and you didnt make any change to indicate that your avatar changed
[13:46] Latha Serevi: Gareth, what if the common case does it via sim A, but you can optionally do your thing, abandoning your joint positions and such, and doing a two-phase rez & derezz?
[13:46] Gareth Ellison: here's the nice thing - if by joint positions you mean av attachments, you can save them in your (trusted) agent domain
[13:47] Gareth Ellison: you just tell sim A to derez, and talk to your trusted agent domain saying (oy! i'm off to <URL for sim B>)
[13:47] Gareth Ellison: perhaps make agent domain act as the proxy for TPs
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: starts to wonder if puppeteering is going to interact with some of these issues.
[13:47] Tammy Nowotny: I had an annoying red-map crash :-(
[13:48] Gareth Ellison: if i go to www.scammer.com in my web browswer, barring a nasty browser exploit/bug i can go straight to www.paypal.com with no worry
[13:48] Tess Linden: Gareth: certainly we're trying to keep options open and would be best to come up with a good default and offer options to the user
[13:48] Charlesk Bing: In that case, Gareth, both those visits are untrusted.
[13:49] Zha Ewry: And. you're not depending on scsammer.com, to remove your presence, when you leave
[13:49] Charlesk Bing: or your clothes.
[13:49] Tess Linden: if we make it required that in order to change anything on the avatar, you have to go through your agent domain, then the only damage a region can do to your avatar is by simulating it ugly
[13:49] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[13:49] Gareth Ellison: i never have to ask scammer.com to redirect me to paypal.com
[13:49] Gareth Ellison: i ask scammer.com (if it's an interactive site) to logout
[13:50] Tomato Contepomi: Yes, but you are not authenticating to both sites with the same credentials
[13:50] Tess Linden: on Second Life today, your avatar information is saved at logoff *if* it changed, and we trust the region to do that
[13:50] Tomato Contepomi: That's an important difference
[13:50] Gareth Ellison: if i give honestbob.com my email address, that's equivalent
[13:50] Charlesk Bing: thank you , Tomato. That was merely my point. Here we are talking about credentialed teleporting.
[13:51] Gareth Ellison: in the new grid, if i go to honest bob's region, honest bob should get my avatar data only via a read-only CAP, and rebroadcast to other users
[13:51] Zha Ewry: also about, maintaining a consensus reality, which is different than looking at apage
[13:51] Gareth Ellison: then i update my avatar by updating agent domain
[13:51] Gareth Ellison: it gets cached on honest bob's region
[13:51] Dahlia Trimble: so could the AD be the broker for baked textures?
[13:51] Gareth Ellison: and honest bob can rebroadcast it, but not modify it
[13:51] Gareth Ellison: precisely :)
[13:52] Gareth Ellison: agent domain should have 100% trust for the agents registered
[13:52] Gareth Ellison: region domain should ONLY have the trust that is delegated to it by the end user
[13:52] Tammy Nowotny: scammer.com is a "parking" page operated by someone is Las Vegas, BTW
[13:52] Gareth Ellison: honest bob shouldn't even get my avatar in a read-only form if i'm paranoid about copyright
[13:52] Charlesk Bing: I can see use cases where certain grids might now allow certain individuals to enter, much like terrorists may not be allowed to enter certain countries.
[13:53] Tess Linden: it's going to be tough for people who have skins/assets, etc that are copy protected
[13:53] Latha Serevi: It's a nice idea that the AD runs everything except position & orientation of the avatar; but I'm a bit concerned we're forgetting something that would cause too many updates back&forth between sim & AD. Is there anything else that needs to be updated super-fast? eye color, flexy flop position...?
[13:53] Gareth Ellison: this is why we need to also get asset permissions reworked
[13:53] Julie Wasserstrom: Also, this could raise the floor on how a default avatar looks today
[13:53] Gareth Ellison: sim and AD don't talk to each other, except for AD streaming recent changes
[13:54] Tammy Nowotny: (in which case, you just recruit terrorists from the native population of those countries.)
[13:54] Tess Linden: Latha: agent data should only be updated when they change, not all the time
[13:54] Gareth Ellison: viewer > AD says "oy! change my hair blonde"
[13:54] BlueWall Slade: all asset servers should encode a key using stegonography to the textures - and check upon upload for an existing one
[13:54] Latha Serevi: Gareth: so the AD determines physics?
[13:54] Gareth Ellison: AD > region: "oy! hair changed red"
[13:54] Gareth Ellison: latha - no
[13:54] Gareth Ellison: only appearance, attached objects and wearables
[13:54] Gareth Ellison: position is handled by region, because it's not something that'll damage the user if messed with
[13:55] Gareth Ellison: however, if i go to a region and it takes off my lovely hair and attachs a giant prim cock to me or other such nastiness, that's gonna harm me
[13:55] Tess Linden: the job of the simulator/region is to show you what objects are in your environment and to simulate other agents that are in your environment
[13:55] Gareth Ellison: sorry for the crude example
[13:55] Joshua Nightshade: blinks.
[13:55] Gareth Ellison: the simulator doesn't need more than a read-only copy of the avatar
[13:55] Tess Linden: Gareth: you indicated you wanted to go to that sim in the first place by indicating that region-url
[13:55] Gareth Ellison: there's no reason why it can't take updates from the AD
[13:56] Joshua Nightshade: there's no such thing as a read only copy of something that gets sent to the viewer.
[13:56] Dahlia Trimble: the simulator doesnt simulate the avatar, only the agent
[13:56] Joshua Nightshade: anything that is sent to the viewer can be intercepted.
[13:56] Gareth Ellison: tess - yes, but we all know that there's numerous tricks etc
[13:56] Latha Serevi: Scripts run on the sim, right? Don't I want my scripts/gestures to affect my avatar noticeably?
[13:56] Gareth Ellison: joshua - my point is, if the region intercepts and messes around, it's not going to actually change my avatar when i TP elsewhere, and it's not going to be able to fiddle with the TP out
[13:56] Tess Linden: you might even look like that after TP'ing back if the malicious region wanted to, but soon enough you're going to tell all your friends not to go there
[13:57] Tess Linden: and yes, as long as it doesnt permanently change your look, then you're not permanently scarred
[13:57] Gareth Ellison: tess - but it's best that malacious regions don't get what they don't need - they don't need to act as proxies on editing appearance, moving inventory, TPing out or other functions
[13:57] Cel Edman: Well I guess, if I use textures/attachments, its streamed from asset server X, Y Z etc.
[13:57] Tammy Nowotny: the only way to keep content abolsultely secret,Josh, is to keep it TOTALLY secret by not lettinga yome use it or see it... of course then it become useless
[13:57] Joshua Nightshade: no the greater concern is that if there's a read only version sent somewhere containing assets that are deliberately not allowed off-grid, that interception can be used to get content that isn't meant to be taken out of SL.
[13:57] Gareth Ellison: it's not about keeping content secret
[13:57] Flight Band: All Go
[13:57] Gareth Ellison: this is a different issue from copyright
[13:57] Tess Linden: Gareth: how do you know if an external region is maliscious though? and what if I don't care even if you do?
[13:57] Gareth Ellison: tess - you don't, that's my point
[13:57] Tammy Nowotny: and even then someoneelse will think up somthing similar
[13:58] Joshua Nightshade: Err Tammy that's not my point.
[13:58] Gareth Ellison: i don't know beforehand if a region is nice or malacious
[13:58] Gareth Ellison: if i go there, and it fiddles with my avatar, changes won't be permanent and it won't be able to hijack outbound TPs or do other nasty things such as impersonate me in any way
[13:58] Tammy Nowotny: well, at some point, at least some of the content has to be revealed..
[13:58] Goldie Katsu: It sounds like assets will need a lot of marking on them - marking that can be read quickly.
[13:58] Dahlia Trimble: rl calls.... bye all, good meeting :)
[13:58] Tess Linden: as a resident, I should be able to have the option of "when I rez in an external grid, don't send them any avatar info, rez me as ruth"
[13:59] Tess Linden: Gareth: is that what you want?
[13:59] BlueWall Slade: see ya Dahlia
[13:59] Tess Linden: thanks Dahlia
[13:59] Rex Cronon: bye dahlia
[13:59] Joshua Nightshade: wait why should that be a resident decision and not a property of the asset defined by the original creator?
[13:59] Gareth Ellison: tess - it would be better to have the region not be given access to modify or intercept anything unless it's required
[13:59] Bartholomew Kleiber: rl calls me too, good meeting y'all
[13:59] Latha Serevi: Tess, good point; it's not only the content creator or the originating sim who cares about trusting the sim; the user also has interests.
[13:59] Charlesk Bing: I need to pretend I am working a tiny bit this afternoon, so I need to go too. Thanks.
[13:59] Rex Cronon: bye bartholomew
[13:59] Gareth Ellison: i've also got another meeting scheduled for 2pm and just noticed the time
[13:59] BlueWall Slade: bye CK
[13:59] Gareth Ellison: sorry to cut this discussion short
[14:00] Gareth Ellison: i'll continue in group chat perhaps later
[14:00] Tess Linden: yeah :) thank you all for coming
[14:00] Rex Cronon: i have to go too, so bye everybody
[14:00] Tammy Nowotny: also, what if someone faslely marks themselves as the woenr of something which truly is in the public domain? we need some way of delaing with that problem.
[14:00] Rex Cronon: have fun
[14:00] Joshua Nightshade: I think I totally missed a valid rationale behind why someone wouldn't want their assets to follow them from grid to grid provided that's allowed by the original creator.
[14:00] Whump Linden: okay, I need to dash as well
[14:00] Latha Serevi: Joshua, both creator and current owner should agree, right? I get to decide how I use my clothes, don't I, even if someone else made them?
[14:00] Zha Ewry: dashes to the next meeting
[14:00] Whump Linden: if you need beta access, drop me a notecard, I'll be back in touch soon
[14:00] Joshua Nightshade: but why wouldn't you want to wear your clothes on another grid?
[14:00] Hamilton Linden: Cya guys
[14:01] Joshua Nightshade: provided you can, I mean.
[14:01] Cel Edman: Well I guess if theres a wierd asset server around, serving pirated warez i guess, I guess other opensims/etc can block streaming the content users bring with them?
[14:01] Harleen Gretzky: ttfn
[14:01] Tess Linden: I'm gonna head out too since its 2pm, thanks everyone
[14:01] Tara5 Oh: another meeting Zha!!

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08

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