User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 16

[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Lalinda, welcome to Sai/Tao/Tree Office Hours.
[8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: yawns rudely
[8:40] Tao Takashi: ok, some topics: Replacing caps with authenticatino headers, replacing LLSD by JSON, using Jabber as IM service. What about these? ;-)
[8:40] Morgaine Dinova: blows a raspberry, for the transcript
[8:40] Tree Kyomoon: tries to think of an annyoing but snappy comeback
[8:40] Lalinda Lovell: jabber has been brought up since months ago
[8:40] Tao Takashi: can also be IRC, I don't care ;-)
[8:40] Lalinda Lovell: at least 6 months
[8:41] Tao Takashi: since years I'd say :)
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Mr Maa. HEre for the non-meeting?
[8:41] Tree Kyomoon: its a zero meeting minus zero. Kind of a null point?
[8:41] Lalinda Lovell: all comments must be either on topic or off topic
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: JSON and XML are alternative and concurrent serializations, according to Zero .... but there's an "eventually" in there somewhere :-(
[8:41] Morgaine Dinova: I wonder if it'll ever come to pass.
[8:42] Tao Takashi: right, but having JSON instead of LLSD as the standard would IMHO be easier with non LL people to get it
[8:42] Lalinda Lovell: things are certainly moving slower than they should IMO
[8:42] Tao Takashi: but I am saying the same thing over and over again anyway so I now shut up :)
[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: If it did, anyone with any sense would switch the interface to JSON mode, since it's always going to be faster :-)
[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: yeah, I agree
[8:42] Tree Kyomoon: I still think we have lots of time to work things out. people are just starting to get into facebook, and we're about 1billion lightyears ahead of that
[8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: still wants regular (SL) gorup IM implemented to test things and provide temporary connections points for inventory, etc
[8:43] Tao Takashi: Tree: Right, that's the general problem
[8:43] Tao Takashi: we might be too early
[8:43] Lalinda Lovell: could we try agreeing on the 1 crucial operation, and everyone focus on that, til its completed, then proceed thus
[8:43] Tree Kyomoon: heres a question then...as a business is SL too bleeding edge?
[8:43] Tao Takashi: but then again SL has some people behind it. I wonder how numbers compare (and can be compared) to VRML people back then
[8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, LL is moving slower than the community.
[8:44] Lalinda Lovell: suggestions for most vital function task
[8:44] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex!
[8:44] Tree Kyomoon: it does seem like we havent moved much in the past year and a half since all this AWG stuff started but mabey theres just too much to do
[8:44] Tao Takashi: well, most vital function is 3D I guess. without it it's no virtual world
[8:44] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:44] Lalinda Lovell: anyone else agree?
[8:44] Tao Takashi: IM and all that has existing protocols
[8:45] Tree Kyomoon: should we stop and take stock of the progress we've made at these meetings?
[8:45] Rex Cronon: group chat
[8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: well, if/when we get pyogp fully functional, they'll be able to move much faster I think
[8:45] Tao Takashi: the AD is basically a social network and I don't think we need to invent that again.. but the 3D part is something new
[8:45] Lalinda Lovell: so is pyogp the priority in your opinion sai?
[8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Tes
[8:45] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: SL might have been bleeding edge as a business 4 years ago, but that business hasn't changed since then. Now they're in danger of the tiger's tail slipping away.
[8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess*
[8:45] Tree Kyomoon: chat isnt 3d, its 1d
[8:45] Tess Linden: I haven't been around much, so would be good to know what interesting topics have come up recently
[8:46] Lalinda Lovell: hi Tess
[8:46] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Tess!
[8:46] Tess Linden: good morning :)
[8:46] Tao Takashi: as for progress at such meetings... well.... :)
[8:46] Rex Cronon: hello
[8:46] Lalinda Lovell: we are thinking what is most crucial at this point
[8:46] Lalinda Lovell: as progress is so slow
[8:46] Tree Kyomoon: how do we keep SL relevant in a world dominated by facebook?
[8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Got the parts of the pyogp GUI sorta working. Working on entering and retreiving things like avie name/password region url etc
[8:46] Tao Takashi: Tree: by integrating with that world
[8:46] Lalinda Lovell: sai i would agree on the pyogp and I think enus would agree too possibly
[8:46] Tao Takashi: not just FB though
[8:46] Rex Cronon: it might be a 3d world, but without chat is kind of useless for cooperation
[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Tess, is development at LL mainly limited by dev resources currently, or by business model, or by caution, or what?
[8:47] Tao Takashi: but everything will open up in the future with protocols between them and OGP should also talk these protocols to stay in the loop
[8:47] Tao Takashi: or by Lawyers ;-)
[8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I think he mostly wants a commandline interface, but if I do it right, the same commands will be used by GUI AND commandline/command file
[8:47] Tao Takashi: well,before group chat we could solve simple chat in a region
[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, make that (iv) by lawyers
[8:47] Tess Linden: we're trying to figure out what to do next too
[8:47] Tree Kyomoon: yes the 3dness is more of a backdrop or context for the text chat. it seems like we need to update the chat to be more fully featured, more modern
[8:47] Lalinda Lovell: Morgaine, Tess, how do you feel about focusing on pyogp as a priority for awg?
[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[8:47] Tess Linden: one thing we have to do is start merging stuff into trunk
[8:47] Tao Takashi: so we can get rid of the 3d part? ;-)
[8:48] Tess Linden: we have a ton of code that we did for the proof of concepts, it would be good to start putting them into production so that we dont get too surprised when we finally do
[8:48] Tao Takashi: actually I mostly have been using SL recently just for chat
[8:48] Morgaine Dinova: My "kk" was to Tess. I didn't understand your question Lalinda.
[8:48] Tao Takashi: but I remember experiencing somewhat more back then ;-)
[8:48] Tess Linden: chat in region happens after you connect to the simulator
[8:48] Tree Kyomoon: its funny how SL chat is really dated yet the background for it is leading edge
[8:49] Tao Takashi: Tess: right, that's why I think the crucial part for a VW protocol is to do that 3d thing, not group chat
[8:49] Tess Linden: the good thing about having OpenSim as the first interoperability proof of concept is that since the client is already compatible, we don't have to worry too much about viewer -> sim features yet
[8:49] Tao Takashi: not that it shouldn't be part of the whole thing but the essential thing seems to be 3D to me
[8:50] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: Zero said that he envisaged IM was going to be handled through OGP uniformly, so I guess it's all change. And much needed too, since that will allow object references in chat.
[8:50] Tree Kyomoon: the sense of presence, "you-ness" is what is essential about the 3d, not the technology
[8:50] Tess Linden: are there disagreements in protocol between chat on SL and chat with OpenSim?
[8:50] Tao Takashi: and I still think handling IM in OGP is not the best way for adoption of the protocol
[8:50] Tao Takashi: as said, there are enough IM protocols out there, I don't think we need another one
[8:51] Tao Takashi: esp. I don't want to implement another one when it's easier to set up e.g. ejabberd or some ircd and connect it to an AD in some way
[8:51] Tess Linden: the IM protocols are so simple, and we're trying to do the simplest possible solution
[8:51] Tree Kyomoon: It would be good if I could invite non SL loggedin people to join the chat without having to login to SL
[8:51] Tao Takashi: implementation might be not simple
[8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, it might not be. But we need to benchmark things to see what is what, AND the SL client already has the GUI hardwired to accept the current protocol. Modding the GUI is probalby at least as hard as modding the protocol
[8:51] Tao Takashi: for big numbers
[8:51] Tao Takashi: that's why I would like to factor it out as well
[8:51] Tess Linden: as long as we can optionally layer on other protocols after the fact, we should stick to the simplest thing that are using existing standards like HTTP
[8:52] Tao Takashi: the less I have to implement (and test!) the better
[8:52] Rex Cronon: tree that might be possible right now:)
[8:52] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: there are a lot of DUMB (ie. plain text) protocols out there. What we should be aiming for though is an extensible variety of IM, so that it can go beyond plain text without everyone creating an incompatible version.
[8:52] Tao Takashi: yes, but we are building another walled garden here
[8:52] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwise there will be 1001 varieties
[8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: understands everyone else's point.
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: I agree Morgaine. I hear there are these pixel raster grid things out there that can display pictures and colors. that might be nice to have in chat.
[8:53] Tao Takashi: my point is really just how big the chances for adoption from other developers are
[8:53] Tao Takashi: and every new thing will make it less likely that somebody implements it and that we have a big variety of components to choose from
[8:53] Morgaine Dinova: OGP is likely to be the focus of interop. If IM isn't handled in OGP, then everyone's IM will be different --- utter nightmare for clients.
[8:53] Tao Takashi: we can specify a protocol as the default IM protocol in OGP
[8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks that everyone knows what he thinks :-/
[8:53] Tree Kyomoon: plus rich text formatting would be fun wouldnt it? I mean if I could post html to chat?
[8:53] Tao Takashi: I don't say that we should let everybody use what they like
[8:54] Rex Cronon: it might not be that fun
[8:54] Tao Takashi: and rich text formatting is mostly a question of what the client does with the text it receives, also links to objects etc.
[8:54] Rex Cronon: somebody might spam the chat with link with images to porno sites. image doing that during a class lecture that happens in sl
[8:55] Tao Takashi: so OGP could say "use jabber and hook it up to the AD like that: ..." and everybody would be using the same
[8:55] Tao Takashi: besides that I still don't know how inter-AD group chat is going to be handled..
[8:55] Tree Kyomoon: you cant limit innovation because of what people *might* do with it.
[8:55] Tao Takashi: doesn't there need to be some separate IM Service anyway to which all those people connect then?
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: if we did that, SL wouldnt exist. I cite giant floppy penises
[8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: what you suggest is a possible outcome of IM's ability to carry links. I'd be happy enough to have to click on them, but others might want to instantiate certain types of object directly. That's an implementation detail for clients though. What's *essential* is for IM to carry the links in the first place.
[8:56] Saijanai Kuhn: STILL would like to see current group IM implemented as an iterum (sp) protocol to test all the stuff we're talking about.
[8:56] Rex Cronon: i didn't say limit it, i just showed a different kind of "fun" that some people might have
[8:56] Tao Takashi: if links are shown or not is a simple decision in the client I'd think
[8:56] Tree Kyomoon: I agree Morgaine
[8:56] Tao Takashi: I mean spam will always be a problem regardless of what we do
[8:57] Tree Kyomoon: I just think SL needs to look at why 100,000,000 people use facebook regularly, and why SL isnt quite that popular.
[8:57] Tao Takashi: Sai: I'd rather try and quickly see if ejabberd could be hooked up.. sounds like less work to do but there wouldn't be a client for it (except maybe some example pyogp one)
[8:57] Tao Takashi: the same is probably what 1000s of other social network sites are asking themselves ;-)
[8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, thats the thing. Most people will be using the regualr SL client, even for testing. pyogp can hook up anything, but the SL client is a bit more constrained due to the GUI issue
[8:58] Tao Takashi: or other virtual worlds wonder about SL
[8:58] Rex Cronon: sl isn't that popular because 100mill people can't log in at same time:)
[8:58] Tao Takashi: Sai: but there should be IM libs out there which could be used
[8:58] Tree Kyomoon: somehow I dont think 100,000,000 people are trying to login to SL at once.
[8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: for the GUI?
[8:58] Rex Cronon: u don't know until is possible
[8:58] Tao Takashi: so 100,000,000 people are surely on FB at the same time.. ;-)
[8:58] Gareth Ellison: mmmm slow rez
[8:59] Gareth Ellison: greetings
[8:59] Tao Takashi: Hi Gareth
[8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Gareth
[8:59] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: I think you're requiring that all clients know how to recover links from a pure text stream, which is a non-extensible approach unless there's a standard for object links, which there isn't, currently. I'm suggesting no recovery needed, because a link is a distinguished field.
[8:59] Tree Kyomoon: I dont know what their concurrent numbers are
[8:59] Tao Takashi: Sai: is the GUI such a problem? a window with a input box?
[8:59] Gareth Ellison: can someone dump a notecard transcript on me?
[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Gareth!
[8:59] Gareth Ellison: that Gwen person has been keeping me away from meetings ;)
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, its a lot more than that. Though, if all you want is a GUI similar to what I've already done for pyogp, it would be doable
[9:00] Tao Takashi: and when I am talking about IM, I of course really just mean IM; not object transfers and such. they should be handled separately
[9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: as far as I can tell the GUI lib in the client is TK implemented on top of OPenGL
[9:00] Gareth Ellison: what client be this?
[9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: I'm not talking about object transfers, just object references available within IM.
[9:00] Rex Cronon: why would objects care how they get to the viewer?
[9:01] Tess Linden: SL is unlike Facebook in that it is a much newer technology
[9:01] Tao Takashi: ok, so send some XML snippet which the viewer understands how to display as object reference
[9:01] Tess Linden: not everyone understand virtual worlds
[9:01] Lalinda Lovell: and facebook is naff
[9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex,m the GUI is intimately linked to the protocols
[9:01] Tao Takashi: yes, the VW concept is still too new
[9:01] Tree Kyomoon: well the backdrop is, but the chat stuff is pretty archaine compared to facebook...the actual social interaction tools are also outdated compared to FB apps.
[9:02] Tao Takashi: and yesterday I again met somebody who seems to be afraid of virtual worlds and wants them to go away and wants more people also wanting it to go away
[9:02] Tess Linden: it will take some time for people to really learn the tools and understand the value of virtual worlds
[9:02] Tao Takashi: I am not sure why that is but it's very interesting
[9:02] Gareth Ellison: which client are we talking about here?
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: precisely. That's where defining such references comes into play. You can't hope clients will figure out some undefined information in the stream.
[9:02] Rex Cronon: it doesn' have to be sai, there could be a interface beteen the class(es) that handle the network connection and the gui
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: future clients.
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: the group IM panels in the chatterbox have hooks directly into the message-passing handlers to handle group IM
[9:03] Gareth Ellison: i heard someone mention TK+OpenGL
[9:03] Tao Takashi: sorry, phone
[9:03] Tess Linden: Tree: I certainly agree with that, but not sure of all the social features, which one to do first, and which one is most valuable
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: there's no intermediate classes they're built on top of except at the lowest levels
[9:03] Gareth Ellison: tell me such a client exists
[9:03] Lalinda Lovell: heres a quick tip, email new users who never logged in after 2 weeks and offer them 500 lindens for free when they log in
[9:03] Gareth Ellison: don't tease me with your TK foreplay
[9:03] Tree Kyomoon: if all of the functionality OF sl including the 3d data visualization were divided into services that could be used in any context (like youtube embedded videos) SL would conquer the web
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: so you can't just redirect from a different output stream easily. I don't know if its as convoluted as the folder system for inventory but it just might be
[9:03] Lalinda Lovell: giving people a small amount of money with a new account will make a huge difference
[9:04] Tree Kyomoon: the problem is the exlusivity of the client
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: I don't think that Youtube conquered the world because it's embeddable ;-)
[9:04] Gareth Ellison: Tree - 3D applets?
[9:04] Gareth Ellison: weird, i've been working on that lately........
[9:04] Rex Cronon: everybody will double their nr of alt and become millionairs:)
[9:04] Tree Kyomoon: web services so I can put a view of my island that is interactive on my webpage
[9:04] Lalinda Lovell: are we all agreed google lively sucks?
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: or put an SL chat window in my flash app
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: ha a Mac. Can't even try it last I checked
[9:05] Gareth Ellison: should be fairly easy to do that with chat CAPS
[9:05] Rex Cronon: i like the java version:)
[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: Not been on Lively, but someone said it doesn't even qualify as a pre-alpha.
[9:05] Gareth Ellison: (why do i always type caps in CAPS?)
[9:05] Widget Whiteberry: oops
[9:05] Lalinda Lovell: lively is so wrong
[9:05] Tree Kyomoon: or access processing power of my sim from one of my other servers
[9:06] Rex Cronon: lively is not working for me, so i have no idea how good or bad it is
[9:06] Saijanai Kuhn: LIvely is a "20 percent" project --two guys did it in their spare time and Google threw it out for the free publicity and to get feedback/marketing data
[9:06] Gareth Ellison: tree - that's just going to lead to leeching
[9:06] Tree Kyomoon: yes I couldnt get lively to work either
[9:06] Tree Kyomoon: seems like google should just buy SL
[9:06] Gareth Ellison: you want it the other way round - make it easier for scripts running on the sim to access external resources
[9:06] Rex Cronon: it keeps says that is downloading for hours
[9:07] Morgaine Dinova: Lively may end up like Google Groups --- after years of use, it's still worse than any bulletin board.
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: hey if im paying 295 a month for 1/4 of a sim, I should be able to use it how I want.
[9:07] Gareth Ellison: project i've been working on lately - serverside rendering using multiple instances of the viewer
[9:07] Lalinda Lovell: tree, you pay that?
[9:07] Tree Kyomoon: yes I do
[9:07] Lalinda Lovell: why???
[9:07] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: how's that going? Cute idea.
[9:07] Rex Cronon: how many gfx do u have gareth:)
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: I own an island in SL
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: I guess at the moment its charity payments for a good cause :)
[9:08] Lalinda Lovell: an island isnt a 1/4 sim
[9:08] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - had some hardware issues (bad RAM), but otherwise runs smoothly
[9:08] Saijanai Kuhn: its 1/4 of a server
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: an island is 1/4 of a server yes
[9:08] Tree Kyomoon: thats what I mean
[9:08] Lalinda Lovell: ok
[9:08] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: what do you actually capture out of the server-side clients?
[9:09] Lalinda Lovell: well tree you cant do what you want on your island, you agreed to the TOS
[9:10] Tree Kyomoon: technically yes, Lalinda, but I can protest and make suggestions. the TOS doesnt say "shut up and never complain ever because we are perfect"
[9:10] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - just grab screenshots from the client with some hooks in the rendering loop and spit it out to a ramdisk, webserver then loads from ramdisk and refreshes automatically in the browser
[9:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zha! How's life?
[9:10] Lalinda Lovell: tree, it might as well :)
[9:10] Zha Ewry: Good, if chatic
[9:10] Lalinda Lovell: if i ran sl.... i would give facebook a free sim to use to get new customers on the grid
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Lalinda GREAT idea...
[9:11] Lalinda Lovell: i have a ton of great marketing ideas
[9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: can you control the camera position etc through the server interface?
[9:11] Rex Cronon: does wow get a free one too:)
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: is jealous
[9:11] Widget Whiteberry: there are SL pages on facebook now
[9:11] Gareth Ellison: if i was LL....... i'd strip newsim of all third-party components and GPL it, then set myself up as the metaverse ICANN and maintain a detached attitude towards content.......
[9:11] Tree Kyomoon: I would do that too, and encourage ADOBE to make a "developer" version of the SL client that integrated their master CS suite of tools with SL for content authors.
[9:11] Widget Whiteberry: but facebook is less intuitive than SL
[9:12] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - the idea right now is to just do simple avatar movements
[9:12] Lalinda Lovell: right, which is why they need sl
[9:12] Gareth Ellison: i'll let you know when we're ready for beta
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: facebook is far more intuitive than SL for most people
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: trying to move around a 3d environment using a mouse and keyboard is very complicated
[9:12] Widget Whiteberry: works for me, Tree
[9:12] Gareth Ellison: Tree - you mean a none-free version of the client which would have tons of propritary extensions?
[9:12] Morgaine Dinova: LL can't afford to get Facebook-side crowds joining SL. It would collapse, that's why the AWG project was started, scalability :-)
[9:12] Tree Kyomoon: we are just geniuses so we dont notice
[9:12] Widget Whiteberry: smiles
[9:12] Lalinda Lovell: sl should give each person a personal page to write about themselves, blog, show pics or whatever
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: exactly Gareth
[9:13] Lalinda Lovell: morgaine it needs growth
[9:13] Morgaine Dinova: Needs != can handle
[9:13] Gareth Ellison: Lalinda - why you giving free tips to the competition? ;)
[9:13] Lalinda Lovell: the economy here is on the pyramind model
[9:13] Rex Cronon: u already have that lalinda
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: extensions that took advantage of photoshop tools, illustrator tools etc.
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: to encourage RL artists to create breathtaking content inside SL
[9:14] Morgaine Dinova: Just what we all need, proprietary extensions. Not.
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: using familiar tools
[9:14] Gareth Ellison: tree - propritary extensions are bad, mmkay?
[9:14] Lalinda Lovell: and where are the press releases from sl to the media? i never see any
[9:14] Tree Kyomoon: they arent bad. No one would force you to buy them
[9:14] Lalinda Lovell: they are badly needed
[9:14] Rex Cronon: i don't that ps really wants to become an sl addon:)
[9:14] Gareth Ellison: tree - just like nobody's forced to buy windows eh? (HA!)
[9:15] Gareth Ellison: let's not get into "vendor lockin 101"
[9:15] Morgaine Dinova: "No one would force you to use them" is a recipe for splitting the VW universe.
[9:15] Rex Cronon: don't think*
[9:15] Lalinda Lovell: it is split
[9:15] Tree Kyomoon: a web world without photoshop, flash and dreamweaver, and windows would have 10,000 nerds and no one else. Instead we have 300,000,000 people
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Lalinda right now SL is in consolidation mode. No sense in advertising for more people when they have to freeze logins at peek concurency already
[9:15] Lalinda Lovell: where is it unified?
[9:15] Lalinda Lovell: sai thats never happened
[9:15] Gareth Ellison: we want to unify it - that's the idea of what we're doing here
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Lalinda what has never happened?
[9:16] Lalinda Lovell: the login freeze
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: ?
[9:16] Lalinda Lovell: once was just when sean was working on something
[9:16] Gareth Ellison: free accounts have been locked out twice for load reasons, and there's been TONS more total downtime
[9:16] Tree Kyomoon: unless we introduce corporate incentive to SL, it will remain marginalized and become increasingly less relevant
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: coud swear its an official policy these days, as per discussion on the wiki. Oh well
[9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: those nerds created the infrastructure upon which everything else works. Without the open networking and subsystems, Facebook and Youtuve would have exactly zero customers.
[9:16] Lalinda Lovell: sai in an emergency
[9:17] Tree Kyomoon: right, but without the customers, those nerds would be using all this great technology to argue about kirk vs pickard
[9:17] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: which would be just fine. :-)
[9:17] Lalinda Lovell: if sl really cannot handle new customers then allow tping to opensim etc
[9:17] Gareth Ellison: tree - corporations are less likely to use a platform that's got too many vendor-specific variations
[9:17] Gareth Ellison: unified standard == larger potential number of customers
[9:18] Tree Kyomoon: if that were true Gareth, Adobe would be out of business
[9:18] Widget Whiteberry: is this a place to talk about chat failure in the group IMs .... that's a barrier to participation here
[9:18] Widget Whiteberry: a frequent one
[9:18] Gareth Ellison: err, TCP/IP and the web are both unified standards
[9:18] Gareth Ellison: adobe build on both
[9:18] Lalinda Lovell: widget is there a jira on it?
[9:18] Tree Kyomoon: right but no one would use TCP/IP if there was nothing to look at
[9:18] Lalinda Lovell: i assume so
[9:18] Widget Whiteberry: hmm, I don't know Lalinda
[9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: Adobe deserves to be out of business, if we can help with that destiny, all the better :-)
[9:19] Lalinda Lovell: campaign for the jira for it to be voted on, take a look at the site
[9:19] Tedd Maa: I would use TCP/IP even with just text
[9:19] Tedd Maa: I'd even use it for binary
[9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Wiget there's bunches of reasons why group IM fails so much. What AWG wants to have is a better, more reliable system implemented in OGP. But that's the problem. Too many choices
[9:19] Gareth Ellison: tree: if everyone had special extensions to TCP/IP which made things incompatible, the internet just couldn't function
[9:19] Tree Kyomoon: sure morgaine, and the web should only have you on it :) The rest of the entire population can go back to digging for worms I suppose?
[9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth++
[9:19] Tedd Maa: IRC, SMTP and POP3 are still useful
[9:19] Gareth Ellison: each router would need to have a ton of different interfaces on it
[9:19] Lalinda Lovell: when group IM fails simply persevere as usually it is a temp problem
[9:20] Gareth Ellison: talking about IRC.....
[9:20] Gareth Ellison: i think IRC is a winning path for IM transport
[9:20] Lalinda Lovell: very stable
[9:20] Gareth Ellison: 1-to-1 and many-to-many chat is a solved problem
[9:20] Tedd Maa: I suggested IRCX for Zero once but it was declined immediately
[9:20] Gareth Ellison: why are we messing around?
[9:20] Tree Kyomoon: Gareth I agree about the standards, but I think that argument doesnt apply to content creation. Its not across the board.
[9:20] Tedd Maa: IRCX has ID reference (instead of nick) for message transport
[9:20] Rex Cronon: why doesn't ll held a competition where everybody can use their home cooked group chat IM, and the best one wins:)
[9:21] Lalinda Lovell: messy rex
[9:21] Gareth Ellison: Rex - or just use a proven and pree-existing protocol?
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: your mentality of standards works with the plugs and wires, but not with what kinds of devices people plug in, or what they choose to plug in.
[9:21] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: you're conveniently forgetting that Adobe wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the free and open foundations of the net.
[9:21] Gareth Ellison: i mean, the number of users on today's IRC networks is huge
[9:21] Rex Cronon: there is not proven protocol for a VRW:)
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: Adobe wouldnt exist if there was no way to make money helping developers make compelling, rich content
[9:22] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: what use is rich content if it can't be delivered?
[9:22] Gareth Ellison: 10:41 [efnet
10:41 [efnet] 4349 6447: Current local users 4349, max 6447
10:41 [efnet] 54403 63862: Current global users 54403, max 63862
[9:22] Gareth Ellison: 10:39 [freenode
10:39 [freenode] Current global: users: 40867 Max: 50796
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: and thats my argument, SL needs compelling rich content, not just a bunch of people sitting around discussing TCP / IP
[9:22] Lalinda Lovell: it does have rich content
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: as important as TCP / IP is
[9:23] Lalinda Lovell: nowhere can users create like here
[9:23] Tedd Maa: problem is number of users per channel, but I think IRC could handle that as well as any other routing service
[9:23] Gareth Ellison: tree - rich content is pointless if it can only be viewed by users with a specific propritary extension
[9:23] Tedd Maa: but it would make things compatible
[9:23] Rex Cronon: compelling rich content takes time, money, and effort to make, so it has to genrate profit
[9:23] Tree Kyomoon: ah wait gareth I think I see the disconnect here
[9:23] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: plus it needs a common platform, just like the Internet provides a common platform. You seem to want a platform that is common only to those who use specific proprietary solutions. Epic fail.
[9:23] Gareth Ellison: Rex: and?
[9:23] Lalinda Lovell: i disagree rex
[9:23] Tedd Maa: (compatible as in already existing libraries, servers, networks, clients, web clients, mobile clients, etc)
[9:24] Lalinda Lovell: art for arts sake
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: Im not suggesting a proprietary viewer, just proprietary content development tools.
[9:24] Gareth Ellison: it doesn't always need to generate a profit, but even if it does you make more of a profit if you can reach more users
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: that make content viewable to all
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: via open source players
[9:24] Rex Cronon: lol. how many artists r going to make art if they have nothing to eat
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: as SL already is
[9:24] Lalinda Lovell: rex, virtual art and virtual food
[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: Artists make far better art when they're starving anyway ;-)
[9:25] Gareth Ellison: rex - quite a lot, but that's besides the point since you CAN generate a profit without using vendor lockin
[9:25] Gareth Ellison: a lot of my favourite music comes from soundclick.com ;)
[9:25] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[9:25] Tree Kyomoon: but having tight integration between something like photoshop and SL would be expensive to do , so they'd need some profit model, like selling a special "developer viewer" that had that capability
[9:25] Rex Cronon: i would really like to see how long u can live by eating prims:)
[9:25] Tedd Maa: I like the music at piratebay
[9:25] Gareth Ellison: lol
[9:25] Morgaine Dinova: Or Jamendo. It's far more interesting music than in the charts, diverse, original.
[9:26] Morgaine Dinova: Commercial artists make crap art.
[9:26] Zha Ewry: OK, peeps, Lnch calls
[9:26] Lalinda Lovell: so have we agreed on 1 vital issue that should be worked on first?
[9:26] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[9:26] Rex Cronon: group chat:)
[9:27] Lalinda Lovell: group chat as a priority?
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: current gorup chat as a priorty ;-)
[9:27] Tedd Maa: IRC is good
[9:27] Tree Kyomoon: actually morgaine, commercial artists make crap art so they can feed themselves while after hours they make good art.
[9:27] Tedd Maa: me is off
[9:28] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: possibly true. Interesting/novel art has to be restricted to be appealing to masses with wallets.
[9:28] Gareth Ellison: group chat: i had that working on other grids
[9:28] Tree Kyomoon: but people spending all their time begging for food and trying to find shelter dont have any time or will to make art...at least...rarely. Probably hard to relate to that living in north america.
[9:28] Gareth Ellison: we know how the story ends though ;)
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: getting the current setup to work in teh AD tests many important issues besides gorup IM
[9:29] Tree Kyomoon: Plus you have to ask, what is the purpose of art? To make a statement that no one else can relate to or learn from, or to be the vox humana? Both? Neither?
[9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: and it *should* be straightforward: get the chat server to recoginze the AD as a sim and funnel all i/o through the AD instead of the sim
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: It's always a good idea to have your comms working well. IM may not be sexy, but it's essential infrastructure for a social world in which people interact. It has to be done, properly/scalably. So I guess I'd vote for making IM a priority, yeah.
[9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: then its just a matter of using the AD as a forwarding point, just as a sim is right now. The biggest issue is getting the gorup IM messages sent over a CAP
[9:30] Gareth Ellison: well, in my tests i just needed to get the viewer to send outbound IMs back to the "agent domain" of agni, inbound came in fine
[9:31] Gareth Ellison: if we have an IM-only "sim" the whole thing becomes trivial
[9:31] Gareth Ellison: stupidly trivial
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, right. But everyone would be using the same "sim"
[9:32] Tree Kyomoon: we reduce SL to a less advanced chat engine...which it pretty much is practically speaking
[9:32] Gareth Ellison: no, dynamically allocate the "sim"
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: then you can start testing AD -to AD group IM and so on
[9:32] Gareth Ellison: there's tons of load-balancing methods you can use
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, the AD poses as the sim at least as far as the client is concerned
[9:32] Gareth Ellison: there's in fact so many possible ways to do this i suspect the hard part will be choosing which method to use
[9:32] Gareth Ellison: sai - exactly my point
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: which is why I advocate doing *something* right now
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: once we see how *something* works, we can start figuring out what our requirements should be for a better *something*
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: btw, an IM-only "sim" would also enable something like SLIM to be done the right way
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: ACHTUNG LINDENS!
[9:33] Morgaine Dinova: OK, so a specific question: how would IM interop work, between worlds?
[9:34] Tess Linden: IM-only sim??
[9:34] Gareth Ellison: Tess - a sim that only handles the raw circuit management and IM forwarding
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: shouldnt IM be independant of virtual world technology? Why doesnt SL just use existing chat protocols and take everything off the servers?
[9:34] Tess Linden: Zero has mentioned some of the key challenges for IM across grids
[9:34] Tess Linden: 1. Unified Identity
[9:34] Gareth Ellison: would probably be as simple as a few lightly sprinkled C++ #DEFINE and #IFDEF statements in newsim
[9:34] Tree Kyomoon: theres no advantage to tieing 3d data to chat I dont think
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Zero's said there's a semantic gap between XMMP and SL's IM requirements. Aka. XMMP wasn't designed for VW chat, and so it would have to be modified/extended ... at which point it's no longer XMMP.
[9:36] Tess Linden: notices she's been saying "key" a lot
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: s/XMMP/XMPP/
[9:37] Tess Linden: I gotta run! see you guys next time!
[9:37] Rex Cronon: bye tess
[9:37] Tree Kyomoon: ciao tess!
[9:37] Lalinda Lovell: bye
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Tess

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 16

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