User:Esbee Linden/Office Hours/2010-09-08

Transcript

[07:57]	Esbee Linden:	Hi everybody!
[07:58]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey esbee
[07:58]	Moon Metty:	aha, a screen
[07:58]	tx Oh:	oh, is this for moap?
[07:59]	Esbee Linden:	Just a png presenter. Quick and dirty for today :)
[07:59]	tx Oh:	luckily i'm in with a moap-able client
[07:59]	tx Oh:	aaah, goood
[07:59]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey oz
[07:59]	Moon Metty:	hey Oz :)
[07:59]	Esbee Linden:	:)
[07:59]	Moon Metty:	i need coffee!
[08:00]	Esbee Linden:	Me too.
[08:00]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey Q
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	/me has not seen Esbees show yet either, and has coffee :-)
[08:00]	Jonathan Yap:	Do we need a certain viewer to see this show?
[08:01]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	/mw wonders what the griefer linden is for :/
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	Nope. This is just a regular slide presenter.
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	Just textures on a prim
[08:01]	Moon Metty:	don't mind Griefer, he's afk
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	So, let's get started!
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	Welcome everybody. Thanks for coming today.
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	I want to try a new format for this meeting.
[08:01]	Esbee Linden:	I've put together some sketches to illustrate some UI ideas.
[08:02]	Esbee Linden:	I'd like to show those to you and then open the meeting up for feedback and discussion.
[08:02]	Esbee Linden:	Sound good?
[08:02]	Moon Metty:	yup
[08:02]	Cummere Mayo:	please tell me they arent based on 2.fail
[08:02]	Mojito Sorbet:	Let's just see them first
[08:03]	Esbee Linden:	We're not here to argue about VIewer 2 vs. 1.23 UI. Not here. Not today. :)
[08:03]	Esbee Linden:	So let's get started.
[08:03]	Moon Metty:	awww
[08:03]	Esbee Linden:	We've been talking a lot about Viewer UI customization over the past few weeks.
[08:03]	Moon Metty:	hehehe
[08:03]	Esbee Linden:	Our XD (Experience Design) team has also been sharing some ideas with me.
[08:03]	Esbee Linden:	In the current Snowstorm sprint, we've been working on detachable sidebar tabs.
[08:04]	Esbee Linden:	Here's a sketch of the Viewer UI today [Sketch]
[08:04]	Esbee Linden:	Can everybody see that?
[08:04]	Indigo Mertel:	yes
[08:04]	Moon Metty:	yes
[08:04]	Esbee Linden:	woot
[08:04]	Jonathan Yap:	yes
[08:04]	Q Linden:	hmmm
[08:04]	Cummere Mayo:	mmhmm
[08:04]	tx Oh:	where is my glass ?
[08:04]	Esbee Linden:	So standard Viewer UI with the People panel expanded on the sidebar.
[08:05]	Esbee Linden:	In the current Sprint, our UI developers have made it so you can click and drag a sidebar tab to detach it from the right hand side.
[08:05]	Esbee Linden:	Like so. (You should now see a sketch of the People panel represented as a floater).
[08:05]	Indigo Mertel:	nods
[08:05]	tx Oh:	how can open 2 profiles?
[08:05]	Esbee Linden:	Cool. So this works really well in the latest development builds.
[08:05]	Esbee Linden:	I'll get to 2 profiles shortly.
[08:06]	tx Oh:	yes, it orks well. but i can't have a group profile open and a user profile
[08:06]	Esbee Linden:	Just like you could in 1.x Viewers, you can minimize this floater and place it anywhere you'd like onscreen.
[08:06]	Esbee Linden:	If you detach all sidebar tabs, they can all be managed onscreen as floaters (as shown in this sketch, all minimized).
[08:06]	Mojito Sorbet:	Does it remember that layout?
[08:07]	Mojito Sorbet:	across relogsa
[08:07]	tx Oh:	yes, it remembers
[08:07]	Esbee Linden:	Right.
[08:07]	Jonathan Yap:	It doesn't remember that they are minimized
[08:07]	Cummere Mayo:	theres been a test viewer for this?
[08:07]	Esbee Linden:	So that's the work that's been completed in our current sprint (which ends next Monday)
[08:07]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, does it remembe rhte layout or not?
[08:07]	Jonathan Yap:	It does remember the layout
[08:07]	Mojito Sorbet:	Being minimized is part of the layout
[08:07]	Esbee Linden:	So detachable sidebars are great.
[08:08]	Moon Metty:	yeah, sounds good
[08:08]	Esbee Linden:	But everybody now asks about opening multiple instances of panels.
[08:08]	JB Hancroft:	detachable - nice :)
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	Cummere - yes, the Latest development viewers have this
[08:08]	Esbee Linden:	I think it's more a matter of opening multiple instances of user and group profiles.
[08:08]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i hear a nyx
[08:08]	Esbee Linden:	So I've got a couple of sketches to show a simple way that might work.
[08:08]	tx Oh:	sure, their are also user stories about multiple profiles
[08:08]	JB Hancroft:	he needs lube
[08:08]	Esbee Linden:	So back on the screen, I have the People Panel open in the sidebar again.
[08:08]	Cummere Mayo:	>.> wheres the download page for them oz? can you im me the link?
[08:09]	Esbee Linden:	It doesn't seem to make sense to spawn multiple instances of the entire people panel.
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/latest.html
[08:09]	Esbee Linden:	(But I could be wrong, so we'll discuss in teh second half of this meeting)
[08:09]	Esbee Linden:	What's I've proposed in this next sketch is a simple addition to the context menu when right-clicking on a user's name.
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Downloading_test_builds
[08:10]	tx Oh:	it make sense. look, i'm at a party and don't have the time to get all the profiles in detail and like to read them later.
[08:10]	Esbee Linden:	When you right-click a user's name, we could have an item that says, "Open in New Window" which opens the user profile in a separate floater.
[08:10]	Indigo Mertel:	Oz, that link is public info, right?
[08:10]	Esbee Linden:	In the sketch you should see now, I've got two user profiles open in floaters on screen.
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	yes
[08:10]	Esbee Linden:	This would work the same for group profiles as well.
[08:10]	Indigo Mertel:	thanks :)
[08:10]	Mojito Sorbet:	This is not to scale, right?
[08:10]	Esbee Linden:	No, just sketches.
[08:11]	Esbee Linden:	Not to scale.
[08:11]	Esbee Linden:	So that's multiple profile instances.
[08:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ok, good. Those profiole windows look a bit big
[08:11]	Esbee Linden:	I've got one more sketch idea to show.
[08:11]	tx Oh:	yeah, thats cool
[08:11]	JB Hancroft:	Nice, Esbee - I like it as opposed to having the same one re-used.
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	For a while, Q and I have been talking about ways to enable Viewer "Modes" - also thought of as presets or customized viewer layouts.
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	I was thinking about how I organize my screen when I'm scripting.
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	Which ends up looking something like this slide.
[08:12]	Indigo Mertel:	hee...
[08:12]	Ardy Lay:	Esbee, when I open multiple profiles I do it by avatar context menu, name links in local chat and searches. Not from Contacts.
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	The scripting window open on the right, and my Inventory floater on the left.
[08:12]	tx Oh:	yes, they are to big. but hey. we have floaters back. maybe it's ok to make them dockable and have tabs for multiple profiles
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	(Remember, these are just sketches - NOT to scale) :)
[08:12]	Esbee Linden:	Will talk more about sketches in a minute.
[08:13]	Jonathan Yap:	You can resize them too
[08:13]	Esbee Linden:	So. Back to this scripting organization.
[08:13]	JB Hancroft:	/me perks up at the mention of scripting
[08:13]	Esbee Linden:	When I'm focused on a script I'm working on, I just have these windows up.
[08:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	Maybe a "Save Layout As..." menu item, that can save all the current layout positions in an XML file. For reload later
[08:13]	Esbee Linden:	Wouldn't it be nice if you could save the layout
[08:13]	Esbee Linden:	So I could quickly toggle my Viewer UI to open the Script editor and Inventory floater, just the way I like it?
[08:13]	Presentation HUD	V3.0 [ Personal Version ]: That was the last slide in the collection - first slide reloaded...
[08:14]	Indigo Mertel:	wow, this is really nice
[08:14]	Mojito Sorbet:	Where are these presets stored?
[08:14]	Esbee Linden:	Here's the last slide. If you could save that layout/preset - then recall it later, you could have different presets for different activiites inworld.
[08:14]	Jonathan Yap:	I think this is only a proposal right now
[08:14]	JB Hancroft:	Any chance we could bind some function keys to switching between presets?
[08:14]	Esbee Linden:	Think of a newbie preset, builder, photographer, explorer, etc.
[08:14]	Oz Linden:	I'd call them "Viewer Layouts", not "Presets", but it's a great idea
[08:15]	Esbee Linden:	So those are all the sketches I have for today. Before we begin the discussion, I want to talk about sketches real quick.
[08:15]	Mojito Sorbet:	Can I suggest, extending the "preset" idea to also include ALL the Prefs settings?
[08:15]	JB Hancroft:	"viewer layouts" - gotcha
[08:15]	Esbee Linden:	A lot of people have asked how they can participate in Viewer idea discussion or how they can get involved in Snowstorm.
[08:15]	Esbee Linden:	"Not everybody is a developer"
[08:15]	Mojito Sorbet:	Graphics level, etc
[08:15]	Cummere Mayo:	/me seconds mojito
[08:15]	Esbee Linden:	Well, besides testing development builds, submitting proposals or user stories, sketches are also a great way to share an idea.
[08:15]	Esbee Linden:	These took me just a few minutes to draw.
[08:15]	Mojito Sorbet:	For example, for fotos I want hi gfx. For RP I want it FAST
[08:16]	Esbee Linden:	And because it's just pencil on paper, I don't mind throwing it away and doing another sketch if this one doesn't work out :)
[08:16]	JB Hancroft:	storyboarding... like it
[08:16]	Esbee Linden:	So I'd encourage anyone with an idea to feel comfortable sharing sketches with the community to show off an idea.
[08:16]	Moon Metty:	alright
[08:16]	Moon Metty:	,
[08:16]	Esbee Linden:	With that, I'd like open the meeting up for discussion on what I've shown today.
[08:16]	Q Linden:	esbee has talent, but the point is that you can storyboard ideas quickly without worrying about every pixel
[08:17]	Esbee Linden:	To recap, we looked at:
[08:17]	tx Oh:	i could make a animation and dance my jira's :-)
[08:17]	Esbee Linden:	A) Detachable Sidebar Tabs
[08:17]	Esbee Linden:	B) Multiple instances of profiles
[08:17]	Esbee Linden:	C) Viewer Presets/Custom Layouts
[08:17]	Jonathan Yap:	I think you'll need some way of opening up saved layouts
[08:17]	Esbee Linden:	Jonathan - Any suggestions on how to open them up?
[08:18]	Q Linden:	opening up meaning edit, or just using them?
[08:18]	Cummere Mayo:	/me has one if jonathan doesnt
[08:18]	JB Hancroft:	Are the detachable Sidebar Tabs draggable to another monitor?
[08:18]	Oz Linden:	Top level "Views" menu
[08:18]	Esbee Linden:	JB - Not yet. But we'd like to get there eventually!
[08:18]	Jonathan Yap:	I was thinking of using them, but being able to make a change and save over one is a good idea
[08:18]	JB Hancroft:	Yes please :))
[08:18]	Oz Linden:	or buttons on the top bar
[08:18]	Q Linden:	so edit could be save as same name
[08:18]	Esbee Linden:	Yeah, there could be a menu item.
[08:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	Not buttons. There could be an arbitrary number of saved layouts
[08:19]	Jonathan Yap:	Another idea is to have a way to preview one at a time, in case you have forgotten what you saved a while ago
[08:19]	Cummere Mayo:	I'ld suggest bringing back the file menue to the top, putting savelayout and edit layout as well as putting an uplaod there too
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Multiple instance of profiles need some more consideration I think. While it is useful to be able to do that from contact list I think most common case is opening them is from chat, im, group im and search. What willbe the default in those? Will I be able to set it up so it opens a new profile instance from those places?
[08:19]	Moon Metty:	hotkeys would be nice too
[08:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	But a pulldown. Like the way WindLight settings are managed
[08:19]	tx Oh:	well, i don't think it's normal to get an script editor open when you log in. i open up several editors when i need them
[08:19]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - Great point, Latif. I've only shown one use case in these sketches.
[08:19]	Esbee Linden:	How profiles are managed from Chat and Search definitely need consideration.
[08:19]	Esbee Linden:	I'll give that some thought (and I encourage everyone else to do so as well!) :)
[08:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, you only do the SAVE PROFILE when you have it set a way you want to have as a starting point
[08:20]	Q Linden:	right
[08:20]	Mojito Sorbet:	It does not remember the last way you had it, but the last way you SAVED it
[08:20]	Latif Khalifa:	I would really like to open a new profile instance whenever I cliked on one.
[08:21]	Jonathan Yap:	I wonder if having a way to load one on the command line would help -- then you could have various shortcuts that start up different work environments
[08:21]	Q Linden:	latif, should that be a pref? does anyone NOT want that?
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	My instict is that everyone wants that, but I have no way of telling.
[08:21]	Q Linden:	we're having 2 discussions here
[08:21]	Oz Linden:	I suspect most people would not want a new window per click, so a pref would be best - could fill up the scren pretty fast
[08:21]	Cummere Mayo:	I think you could get buy without making it a pref IF you have it tabbed then allow us to undock the tabs?
[08:22]	Esbee Linden:	Yeah. Let's stick with the profile instance discussion for a minute.
[08:22]	Q Linden:	jonathan, is that worth it, if there's aneasy way to click?
[08:22]	Q Linden:	switch i mean
[08:22]	Esbee Linden:	This is something I've been wondering about. Should profiles always open in a floater? Or should it be an open to view them in the sidebar vs. floater?
[08:22]	Jonathan Yap:	Q, I think some people would want that, but yes, there is the programming and maintaince cost involved
[08:22]	Mojito Sorbet:	They should open the last way you did it
[08:22]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm....
[08:23]	tx Oh:	i susspect it would be ok if the profile window has tabs with usernames and groupnames
[08:23]	Nebadon Izumi:	heh ya so you can view multiple profiles at once
[08:23]	Q Linden:	an implied pref?]
[08:23]	Nebadon Izumi:	side by side
[08:23]	Marigold Devin:	I like to have multiple profiles open at once
[08:23]	Marigold Devin:	And minimize them to the bottom of my screen
[08:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	You could think of it as an implied pref
[08:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	If there was some way to indicate when you opened something, how you wanted it done, and that was sticky
[08:24]	JB Hancroft:	a pref to "open sidebar tabs as separate windows" ?
[08:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	Hold down CTRL key while clicking, etc
[08:24]	Cummere Mayo:	Im mostly agreeing tiwh mojito and the rest here. If we really need a pref for it, can always add a debug setting
[08:24]	tx Oh:	but i don't know. a multi tabbed profile window would save space on the screen
[08:25]	I Heart	Stripes Belt (Pelvis): Starting up scripts, loading settings.
[08:25]	Second Life:	Entering god mode, level 150
[08:25]	I Heart	Stripes Belt (Pelvis): Startup complete.
[08:25]	JB Hancroft:	the behavior should be consistent.. if the viewer is remembering how we last did something, and re-using that implicit choice, as opposed to going strictly by prefs
[08:25]	Q Linden:	whoops, esbee's working from home again
[08:25]	Esbee Linden:	Sorry about that.
[08:26]	JB Hancroft:	wb
[08:26]	Cummere Mayo:	quick technical question?
[08:26]	Q Linden:	go for it
[08:26]	Esbee Linden:	ask away
[08:26]	Latif Khalifa:	esbee, my proposal was if you missed it: "if your last profile viewed was in a floater, open all new profiles in a floater. if you last docked profile in a sidebar, the following profiles open in a sidebar"
[08:26]	Cummere Mayo:	if we started it as an implied preference, how hard would it be to make it an implicit if we needed to?
[08:26]	Ardy Lay:	I don't usually get angry when the viewer crashes but it made me angry this time. Intersting meeting AND I had something typed in to add. :-(
[08:26]	Q Linden:	explicit, you mean?
[08:26]	Esbee Linden:	Ah, I like that Latif. Thanks for repasting :)
[08:26]	Cummere Mayo:	sorry explicit
[08:27]	Latif Khalifa:	I'm focused on the schetch, cannot really see who is crashing xD
[08:27]	Mojito Sorbet:	There are precedents for things becoming explicit prefs after being less obvious for a wihle
[08:27]	Esbee Linden:	hehe
[08:27]	Moon Metty:	lol
[08:27]	Q Linden:	it would probably be a debug pref that we changed with the code to control the window
[08:27]	Q Linden:	so no big deal
[08:27]	Mojito Sorbet:	The one that comes to mind is "Play typing animation while chatting"
[08:27]	tx Oh:	i crashed too, with viewer-dev
[08:27]	Ardy Lay:	I hope somebody is looking at the test build crash reports. I have been sending a lot of them. I am NOT accustomed to crashing.
[08:27]	Cummere Mayo:	okay.
[08:28]	Q Linden:	we do a crash report review weekly, ardy
[08:28]	Esbee Linden:	We definitely look at those Ardy. Not to worry!
[08:28]	Cummere Mayo:	next question...
[08:28]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i just got back from dev crash as well
[08:28]	Cummere Mayo:	mainly aimed at esbee, with this new scheme how would what i sent you fit into this?
[08:28]	tx Oh:	ok, must be a in-world trigger who got us :-)
[08:29]	Esbee Linden:	Cummere, I haven't had enough time to get through all my email yet this week. Can I get back to you on that question?
[08:29]	Cummere Mayo:	okay..
[08:29]	Esbee Linden:	Thanks!
[08:29]	Mojito Sorbet:	Could you think about my idea of saving prefs with the layout?
[08:29]	Esbee Linden:	I have a question for all of you about saved layouts.
[08:29]	Mojito Sorbet:	Since my current task often changes those settings
[08:29]	Esbee Linden:	Would it be bothersome if these were saved locally on your machine?
[08:29]	tx Oh:	well, i like to say it again. i think it doesnt make sense to open a script editor on login
[08:30]	Oz Linden:	/me likes the idea of all prefs being included
[08:30]	Esbee Linden:	Meaning if you switch machiens, the saved layouts do not go with you :)
[08:30]	Cummere Mayo:	/me really loves that idea
[08:30]	Jonathan Yap:	I think you'd want them saved locally, and even (perhaps) by avatar name
[08:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	I thikn I can manage copying my profile files over
[08:30]	JB Hancroft:	I use several machines... how could I migrate the settings from one to another?
[08:30]	Moon Metty:	hmmm
[08:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Esbee, makes sense... different machines have different screen resolutions, etc...
[08:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	If they all go in some well known directory
[08:30]	tx Oh:	jb: email attachment :--)
[08:30]	Oz Linden:	is there some reason not to both cache them locally and save them on the server?
[08:30]	JB Hancroft:	tx :)
[08:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	Yes, Latif has a point. They layouts will be specific to screen size
[08:30]	Q Linden:	it's a big difference betweeen local save and one on the server, sadly
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	(plus it saves you to have to work with the server team) xD
[08:31]	Esbee Linden:	Yeah
[08:31]	Nebadon Izumi:	heh or maybe make it so you can save layout to an in world asset?
[08:31]	Mojito Sorbet:	How about you implement it first using local storage. That will not involve server changes
[08:31]	Oz Linden:	if both is hard, localliy is good
[08:31]	Cummere Mayo:	what about doing it the way we save photos?
[08:31]	Nebadon Izumi:	so you can reload it from inventory?
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	so local layouts is a good compromise
[08:31]	JB Hancroft:	local save is fine, then. I'm in favor of more progress, sooner.
[08:31]	Nebadon Izumi:	like a notecard or something
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	JB++
[08:31]	Esbee Linden:	Right. If we save teh file locally, we could implement something like this much sooner.
[08:31]	Cummere Mayo:	doign it to server by default but with a downlaod option?
[08:31]	Cummere Mayo:	as a long term
[08:32]	Oz Linden:	maybe provide a way to export and import a layout file?
[08:32]	Cummere Mayo:	but locally only to get it out
[08:32]	Jonathan Yap:	If it is saved locally an advanced person can view the file, unless some other way of seeing the layout is provided
[08:32]	Mojito Sorbet:	Involving the server will delay implementation by months if not years. You really want to get this in front of people soon
[08:32]	Cummere Mayo:	+10 oz
[08:32]	Esbee Linden:	Good idea, Oz.
[08:32]	Nebadon Izumi:	if it were asset you could send it to friends too
[08:32]	Q Linden:	I'd suggest saving to a local xml file, yeah
[08:32]	tx Oh:	i think it's more helpfull to get the nearby chat into the IM dock
[08:32]	Cummere Mayo:	and im seeing an easy way to make allot of this easy to find
[08:32]	Latif Khalifa:	Just making it xml serialized LLSD (like prefs) in a separate file will do that
[08:32]	Q Linden:	yes, latif
[08:32]	JB Hancroft:	/me suggests... let's not put anything that would be "disclosure" into the local save... no passwords, etc.
[08:32]	Ardy Lay:	Make a LLSD settings file and an import to notecard and export from notecard?
[08:33]	Mojito Sorbet:	Here is an idea I got somewhere else. Paste the XML fgile of your Layout into a Notecard. Thgen you can send them to friends. Sell them. Whatevert
[08:33]	Esbee Linden:	Sure. Being able to send a layout youve created to a friend could be very useful.
[08:33]	Mojito Sorbet:	As long as they fit, of course.
[08:33]	Esbee Linden:	That's definitely something to think about.
[08:33]	JB Hancroft:	/me goes off to auction Mojito's settings on eBay ;)
[08:33]	Esbee Linden:	JB - LOL
[08:33]	Latif Khalifa:	Mojito, all that can be implemented on top of layout saving engine once it's in the viewer, so yeah
[08:33]	Mojito Sorbet:	Max notecard size may get in the way, once you toss all the prefs in there
[08:33]	Nebadon Izumi:	hehe
[08:33]	Cummere Mayo:	so waht if we make them just yet another new kind of asset?
[08:34]	tx Oh:	well, i would offer my settings on xstreetsl for 0l$
[08:34]	Jonathan Yap:	Passing those settings around might be an issue--what do you do when moving from a widescreen to a netbook, for example? You don't want floaters off the sides.
[08:34]	JB Hancroft:	asset = big server-side work :(
[08:34]	Mojito Sorbet:	I really think you need ot get this working with zero server changes first
[08:34]	Mojito Sorbet:	Let people play with it a while
[08:34]	Nebadon Izumi:	maybe have a does this look right confirmation?
[08:34]	Cummere Mayo:	i know... but everything we're wanting to od is already supported by the asset system
[08:34]	Nebadon Izumi:	so if things go totally bonkers you hit no
[08:34]	Nebadon Izumi:	and it reverts
[08:34]	Cummere Mayo:	import, export, share, permissions, etc
[08:34]	Q Linden:	yes, cummere -- adding new asset types is a Bhig Dheal
[08:34]	Latif Khalifa:	Esbee, I'm just not sure how it will work for say scripts. A new script floater will open when I double click on it in the specified location?
[08:34]	Mojito Sorbet:	Like changing grpahics settings on Windows?
[08:34]	Nebadon Izumi:	ya exactly
[08:35]	Latif Khalifa:	I mean will it open floaters when you select a new layout?
[08:35]	Mojito Sorbet:	I would think opening a layout restores all windows you had open when you saved it
[08:35]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - I think that would be the case. Maybe it doesn't open a specific script, but it would open the actual Script Editor window.
[08:35]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe, we are diggin into minutae when we need to base implimentation to play with first. ;-)
[08:35]	tx Oh:	well, i don't think that this presets are urgent. other things are more important
[08:35]	Esbee Linden:	But I could be convinced otherwise :)
[08:35]	Mojito Sorbet:	tx, I disagree
[08:36]	Cummere Mayo:	tx totally disagree sorry
[08:36]	Mojito Sorbet:	This feaure gets around a lot of annoyances people have with the V2 GUI
[08:36]	Jonathan Yap:	Presets go with how torn off floaters are handled, now is the time to work on it
[08:36]	Latif Khalifa:	Hm. you cannot open script floater without it being linked to a specific script
[08:36]	Moon Metty:	yeah Latif
[08:36]	Mojito Sorbet:	Likewise, you can't open a Profile window without somebody's face being in it
[08:36]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - I'm suggesting that maybe you should be able to do that :)
[08:37]	Jonathan Yap:	You can always get a "new script" window
[08:37]	JB Hancroft:	the Script Editor is always in context of a Script (of some sort), today. Having it open without a script, is fine, but new behavior.
[08:37]	Mojito Sorbet:	Could always force it to your own profile...
[08:37]	Latif Khalifa:	I think it will be rather complicated to implement "save as.." :)
[08:37]	tx Oh:	thats what i said minutes ago, the open script editor makes no sense after a login
[08:37]	Ardy Lay:	Esbee, like Xerox Workspace definitions?
[08:37]	Mojito Sorbet:	Perhaps some windows can't get saved as part of a layout
[08:37]	Ardy Lay:	/maybe Esbee isn't old enough to remember those.
[08:37]	Q Linden:	do what? open a script for an object that may not be local?
[08:37]	Esbee Linden:	lol...Ardfy
[08:37]	tx Oh:	you can save the last size and position.
[08:38]	Esbee Linden:	I'm no spring chicken ;)
[08:38]	Latif Khalifa:	I'd suggest you still save script floater location, just don't open it at the time you select preset. Once you open your first script you get the floater in the place where you saved the layout
[08:38]	Mojito Sorbet:	ah good idea
[08:38]	Q Linden:	early summer, tops
[08:38]	Esbee Linden:	LOL
[08:38]	Esbee Linden:	Thanks, Q
[08:38]	Esbee Linden:	:)
[08:38]	Moon Metty:	that makes sense, yes
[08:38]	Ardy Lay:	Well, I usually only work on 1 script at a time but do frequently open a second to copy functions from it.
[08:38]	Latif Khalifa:	(for notecards and scripts that are tied to the instances)
[08:38]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - That's a good idea.
[08:39]	JB Hancroft:	Latif - yes
[08:39]	tx Oh:	well, i usualy work on multiple scripts at a time
[08:39]	Jonathan Yap:	Then the issue is, do you have missing sidebar tabs because they were torn off, but no floater has been created for them yet?
[08:39]	Ardy Lay:	tx, how many at a time? Just make it open ended?
[08:39]	Mojito Sorbet:	If I am doing complex script editing, I use Eclipse anyway, not the built in editor
[08:39]	Q Linden:	it's good to get these use cases out. what does your text editor do?
[08:39]	JB Hancroft:	so... switching to a saved layout doesn't mean that all of the windows open, but that *when* I do open a window of that type, it will be in the saved location and size?
[08:40]	Latif Khalifa:	tx, ability to take scripts outside the main window would be great :)
[08:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	JB, that was Latif's idea.
[08:40]	Esbee Linden:	JB - My original thought had been that the windows open. But again, that could be changed.
[08:40]	Q Linden:	I think it only makes sense to remember a single window positions
[08:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	Some windows that CAN open, should do so
[08:40]	JB Hancroft:	Mojito - thanks :) repeating it to see if I got it :)
[08:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	Especially iof they were minimized.
[08:40]	tx Oh:	ardy: it really depends.
[08:40]	Mojito Sorbet:	The minimized window icon would appear, but not expand
[08:40]	Esbee Linden:	Scripts outside the main window will be a great thing. Getting floaters outside the main Viewer UI is on our backlog.
[08:41]	Ardy Lay:	Q, remember single window positions and "cascade" similar windows under and to the side would work well for me.
[08:41]	Latif Khalifa:	JB, some windows... those that makes sense, like inventory. Opening script does not make much sense since object you were editing when saving the layout could be long gone
[08:41]	Esbee Linden:	But I think it will require a lot of work (/me glances at Q) ;)
[08:41]	Moon Metty:	hey, i have an idea for gathering userfeedback, can i explain?
[08:41]	JB Hancroft:	Latif - understood, yes :)
[08:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Esbee I think there is an easy way to implement script editing
[08:41]	tx Oh:	when you place the windows outside the main window then you have the problem of different platforms and people who run fullscreen
[08:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	How does it work now, when you open a script window? How does it pick the window location?
[08:42]	Latif Khalifa:	Allow "open in external editor" for scripts, then you can do file system monitoring and save the asseet when the external editor saves
[08:42]	Q Linden:	i think we have to validate window positions as
[08:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	Tx, nobody is forcing you to put windows outside
[08:42]	Q Linden:	"onscreen" every time
[08:42]	Esbee Linden:	"open in external editor" - I love that idea.
[08:42]	Q Linden:	latif, i proposed that 2.5 years ago,
[08:42]	Latif Khalifa:	It will require minimal work in the viewer to implement something like that, as it does not require multiple opengl contexts
[08:42]	JB Hancroft:	ZOMG YES!
[08:42]	Q Linden:	there's a jira on it somewhee in our old system
[08:42]	Esbee Linden:	We should ressurect that Jira :)
[08:43]	Esbee Linden:	(and I should spell better)
[08:43]	Latif Khalifa:	it should really be not that difficult to implement too
[08:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	I use a program that allows dragging windows outside the main window. Even onto another monitor. When yhou start it up the layout will actguyally put the windows there, where you had them
[08:43]	JB Hancroft:	Eclipse over here, and pushing it into the viewer to save/re-compile :)
[08:43]	Oz Linden:	/me cuts and pastes to emacs
[08:43]	Esbee Linden:	I use TextMate to do most of my scripting and then copy and paste inworld. Would be nice to save a step :)
[08:43]	Q Linden:	latif, not *that* hard, but there are real subtleties, and each platform is different
[08:43]	Moon Metty:	can i have a moment?
[08:44]	Latif Khalifa:	/me has programmed the most in Emacs too :P Got too lazy and moved to the dark side and now use Visual Studio
[08:44]	Cummere Mayo:	Esbee i jsut sent you an idea for how maybe to make it real easy to find and mange layout preferences
[08:44]	JB Hancroft:	Latif... I'm so sad for you.
[08:44]	Latif Khalifa:	Q, I thought APR had some file system monitioring that could do that?
[08:44]	Esbee Linden:	/me is so tempted to start a vi vs emacs discussion...muwhahaha
[08:44]	Esbee Linden:	Anyway. :)
[08:44]	Mojito Sorbet:	nooo
[08:44]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[08:44]	JB Hancroft:	Moon?
[08:44]	Esbee Linden:	heh
[08:44]	Jonathan Yap:	Moon, I think you just have to toss out what you want to say
[08:44]	tx Oh:	well, i use the build in editor because i'm to lazy.
[08:44]	Moon Metty:	an office hour like this is obviously very productive, but it only lasts one hour
[08:44]	Esbee Linden:	Moon. Go right ahead. You had a suggestion?
[08:44]	Esbee Linden:	Right
[08:44]	Moon Metty:	so i have been thinking
[08:45]	Ardy Lay:	Heh, if I used Linux and X I would want the viewer rendered as the root window on a selected display and everything else in floating windows. ;-)
[08:45]	Moon Metty:	first you could post a blog on a specific item, inviting everyone to start discussing
[08:45]	Moon Metty:	that wouldn't give much useful feedbak, it would be noisy
[08:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	Esbee, how did you do these pics? Doodle on paper and scan them?
[08:45]	Moon Metty:	but it would help residents think about the topic
[08:46]	Moon Metty:	now, here's the next stage:
[08:46]	Esbee Linden:	Wonderful idea. I am actually planning to do a blog post to follow up on this office hour. But it could also be done in reverse!
[08:46]	Esbee Linden:	Love it.
[08:46]	Esbee Linden:	Mojito: Sketch and scan. You got it!
[08:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	Lo tech but also very fast
[08:46]	Esbee Linden:	Yep!
[08:46]	Moon Metty:	you make a post (on the jira for example) where everyone can leave only one comment, and no more
[08:46]	Moon Metty:	,
[08:46]	Nebadon Izumi:	i draw it on paper 1st
[08:46]	Nebadon Izumi:	heh i do the same thing for laying out sims in OSgrid
[08:46]	Moon Metty:	,
[08:46]	Moon Metty:	so there can be no discussions
[08:47]	JB Hancroft:	/me notes the Linden-per-meter indicator is nearing critical
[08:47]	Mojito Sorbet:	"no discussions" does not sound very productive
[08:47]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	so here ya all are :p
[08:47]	Moon Metty:	everyone can still edit that one comment, and share their thoughts
[08:47]	Marigold Devin:	No, I see where Moon is coming from on this one.
[08:47]	Moon Metty:	i asked Sue, and she did some research
[08:47]	Esbee Linden:	JB - lol
[08:47]	Moon Metty:	unfortunately there's no way on the jira to restrict comments to one for each user
[08:48]	Moon Metty:	but the idea is nice
[08:48]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[08:48]	Oz Linden:	Jira is not a very good place for discussions
[08:48]	Q Linden:	moon, why would that help?
[08:48]	Moon Metty:	it's not for discussions OZ
[08:49]	Q Linden:	i'm not sure i see the value yet of one per user
[08:49]	Esbee Linden:	What if the sketches were posted on the blog? Or on a wiki page?
[08:49]	Cummere Mayo:	q cause you would get feedback without so much drama
[08:49]	Moon Metty:	if you have only one comment-field , you can't discuss anything
[08:49]	Esbee Linden:	Then you could comment and discuss as made as you'd like.
[08:49]	Marigold Devin:	Because not enough time to cover everything in an Office Hours meeting. And discussions sometimes end in a melee - too often they do
[08:49]	Esbee Linden:	I'm not sure I'd ever want to restrict the discussion though.
[08:49]	Mojito Sorbet:	Whatever mechanism is used, it should provide for attaching new doodles to the comments.
[08:49]	Nebadon Izumi:	only getting 1 post is hardly a "discussion"
[08:49]	Esbee Linden:	(Unless you guys start criticizing my sketching skills) ;)
[08:49]	Moon Metty:	the blogs are well suited for endless discussions
[08:49]	Oz Linden:	Well, the melee problem can't be solved by technology - it's a social problem
[08:49]	Nebadon Izumi:	its more like a survey
[08:50]	Marigold Devin:	Yes. It is a social problem for sure.
[08:50]	JB Hancroft:	If the sketch embodies one change, why not have a Jira for it, and then you have discussion, design tradeoffs and decisions, and tracking into a release package... all threaded.
[08:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	Because the process is more fluid than that
[08:50]	Esbee Linden:	JB - when it moves to the backlog and/or is being worked on in a sprint - then absolutely
[08:50]	Mojito Sorbet:	One suggestion could expsand into several related things, or coalesce
[08:50]	Esbee Linden:	But at this stage, when we're just discussing ideas, I wonder if the blog and OH are more suitable?
[08:50]	Moon Metty:	so the idea is: a place where everyone can place their idea, in a single comment
[08:51]	Latif Khalifa:	/me 1 comment per jira remindend me of a joke when my father used to tease my mother about her talking too much "god gave us a certain amount of words we can say in our lifetime, and i'd hate to see you die young" :P
[08:51]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - LOL!
[08:51]	Jonathan Yap:	Esbee, for people who did not make this meeting, or who were late, can you put up your slides on that blog post you are going to be doing?
[08:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	I agree with Esbee. This is too early to put it on the backlog yet
[08:51]	Marigold Devin:	LOLs at Latif - good one :-)
[08:51]	Ardy Lay:	OH seems to be working when the brawlers keep a low profile.
[08:51]	JB Hancroft:	I think OH are the right forum - synchronously - for this sort of discussion, where it ranges all over the map and back again.
[08:51]	Cummere Mayo:	what about this? what about a blog post, but instead of oepning the discussion, put a link to a new LL inbox and ask peopel to just email their thoughts, suggestions, and criticisms of it to that address?
[08:51]	Esbee Linden:	I think OH's work best when we structure them (like I did this week).
[08:51]	Esbee Linden:	This has been great, btw ;)
[08:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	Oh, if we only had a shared whiteboard....
[08:51]	Moon Metty:	yes :)
[08:51]	Q Linden:	we do
[08:51]	Esbee Linden:	We can have a shared whiteboard with Shared Media :)
[08:52]	Marigold Devin:	Well, for sure OH is good for planting interesting seeds of thoughts. If I ever have any lightbulb moments I'll bung them on an email and post them off to you Esbee.
[08:52]	Esbee Linden:	We use them at the Lab in meetings sometimes
[08:52]	JB Hancroft:	Google Draw on MOAP works well :)
[08:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	Can do it with "Go To Meeting" as well
[08:52]	Cummere Mayo:	/me wonders if esbee would toss up her menue idea for feedback?
[08:53]	Jonathan Yap:	Esbee, a lot has been said this morning - -can you post a summary of suggestions/ideas?
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	Cummere - I can't add it to the screen. You need to send me a texture with modify rights. :)
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	Jonathan - Absolutely.
[08:53]	tx Oh:	hehe, i have a graphic tablet :-)
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	So as we wrap up today, here's what I'll do next...
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	First, I'll post this chat log and links ot the sketches on the wiki.
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	But I will also follow up with a blog post that offers some next steps based on our discussion today.
[08:53]	Cummere Mayo:	meh i thought i gave rights sorry
[08:53]	Esbee Linden:	Probably with more sketches :)
[08:54]	tx Oh:	yepp, wiki seems fair enough.
[08:54]	tx Oh:	it also has a discussion tab
[08:54]	Esbee Linden:	Okay, it's a little stretched out, but here's a sketch Cummere sent
[08:55]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	isent Save (as) not same as export?
[08:55]	Jonathan Yap:	I would like to see a Layout->Preview
[08:55]	Cummere Mayo:	no.
[08:55]	Esbee Linden:	It shows the saved layout/preset options shown in a file menu on the top bar
[08:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ooo, little thumbnails, to help you remember which is which
[08:55]	Cummere Mayo:	it would allow you to take a saved layout, modify it, and save it as a new one
[08:55]	Jonathan Yap:	Yes Mojito
[08:55]	Esbee Linden:	I think it would probably help to have a manage layout floater.
[08:55]	Esbee Linden:	When you can see the layouts you have and rename, delete, etc.
[08:56]	Esbee Linden:	Maybe you could preview from the Manage Layout floater too
[08:56]	Mojito Sorbet:	Save screenshot at the time you save the layout, reduce to about 128pix on a side, save as base64 in the XML file
[08:56]	Q Linden:	thumbnails are nice but would requier extra file format
[08:56]	tx Oh:	yepp. and when you load a preset which didn't fit in the current window dimensions you need to recalculate the layout
[08:56]	Mojito Sorbet:	It would be bulky though
[08:56]	Cummere Mayo:	/me shrugs.
[08:56]	Latif Khalifa:	well binary serialized to llsd would work too xD
[08:56]	Jonathan Yap:	You don't need full graphics -- just some way to sketch outlines of the floaters
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	This is great, Cummere. Thanks for sending it!
[08:57]	Q Linden:	/me has to run
[08:57]	Cummere Mayo:	hey it was only and idea for an easy way to access it. modify it as you see fit
[08:57]	Q Linden:	thanks, all
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	We have just a few minutes left, so I want to thank everybody for coming.
[08:57]	Moon Metty:	run slowly Q :)
[08:57]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Q
[08:57]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	tc Q °͜°
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	This has been a great meeting.
[08:57]	JB Hancroft:	Esbee - Awesome OH - thank you!
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	Cya Q
[08:57]	Moon Metty:	see you later!
[08:57]	Oz Linden:	/me congratulates Esbee and everyone here on a very productive and useful exchange
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	Look for a blog post in the next few days to follow up
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	But I'll post this transcript later today
[08:57]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	where?
[08:57]	JB Hancroft:	Esbee - is this weekly - same time and location?
[08:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	Include the pix
[08:57]	Esbee Linden:	And in the meantime - sketch away!
[08:58]	Esbee Linden:	JB - Yes, same time, same place weekly :)
[08:58]	JB Hancroft:	Excellent - thank you - adding it to my calendar.
[08:58]	Esbee Linden:	Wyatt - They get posted to my page on the wiki. I'll grab the link
[08:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Come t think of it, I really like "use last docked/undocked state for floater to determine how a new one will open" xD
[08:58]	JB Hancroft:	See you soon. tc, all :)
[08:58]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	k °͜°
[08:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Thanks Esbee :)
[08:58]	JB Hancroft:	/me passes Esbee new crayons... Keep Sketching!
[08:58]	Moon Metty:	lol
[08:58]	Mojito Sorbet:	So if Inventory is Undocked. Next time I type ctrl-I I expect to get an UNDOCKED window
[08:58]	Esbee Linden:	Transcripts for my OHs can be found here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden
[08:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Mojito, yes
[08:59]	Latif Khalifa:	for profiles and groups too
[08:59]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	thanks °͜°
[08:59]	Esbee Linden:	Thanks for the crayons :)
[08:59]	Mojito Sorbet:	That would be great
[08:59]	Latif Khalifa:	and no new prefs!
[08:59]	Mojito Sorbet:	yes
[08:59]	Esbee Linden:	Alright I have to run! Thanks for coming everyone.
[08:59]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	crayons lol
[08:59]	Esbee Linden:	Latif - LOL
[08:59]	Cummere Mayo:	/me kicks the wike.
[08:59]	Wyatt Crazyboi:	tc Esbee
[08:59]	Indigo Mertel:	bye Esbee
[08:59]	Moon Metty:	good luck Esbee
[08:59]	Marigold Devin:	Thanks Esbee, been interesting
[08:59]	Latif Khalifa:	Take care Esbee :)
[08:59]	Esbee Linden:	Cheers everybody!

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