Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-03-14

	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	hi Oz, first time i meet you.. umm i think
	Wolfpup	hey Oz
	Oz Linden	welcome
07:01		Hope everyone had a good weekend and is ready for another productive week :-)
	Wolfpup	< had to work @ RL job but that is nothing new
	Oz Linden	First item on our agenda: # Create a special queue for issues LL wishes open devs would do?
07:02		This one is a discussion topic that I'd like your reaction to....
	Wolfpup	that might be a good thing
	Cummere Mayo	not really... my weekend was marred by finding out three major security leaks with SL one of which is by Linden employees/contractors *sighs.*
		and oz thats a good idea
	Oz Linden	Fairly often, we find issues that we'd like to see done, but for one reason or another it's not easy to allocate a Linden to them
07:03	Wolfpup	Cummere you talking abut the one you mentioned in IRC last night?
07:04	Cummere Mayo	wolfpup which one? Ive mentioned all three in irc :-/
	Oz Linden	the idea is that if we create a jira queue for those (exact form of the queue tbd, but assume it's a list that's easy to find) of those issues, then anyone who picks them up is already assured that we're interested and will progress the issue promptly
	Wolfpup	im still working on trying to get autobuild to work better in VC10 eenvironment but was able to do some testing of 9412 over the weekend as well
	Cummere Mayo	oz that would be a great idea and would help devs feel less "used and abused"
	Wolfpup	about group chaty
07:05	Neal Kendrick	yeah i had an issue trying to get autobuild to work in vc10
	Wolfpup	woops ment 941
	Oz Linden	anyone here feeling abused?
	Wolfpup	for the issue
		not me
	Cummere Mayo	me actually
	Oz Linden	well, let's talk about that privately, Cummere
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	not abused, but I'd wish for a more symmetric relation between LL and the community
	Wolfpup	Cummere tester always get abused :p
	Oz Linden	I don't want anyone to feel abused
07:06	Cummere Mayo	theres a few devs that feel it too
		but they arent here
		but ill tell them to contact you if you like
	Oz Linden	The simple fact is that the relationship between osdevs and LL is not and never will be symetric
07:07		but that doesn't mean that it can't be a relationship of mutual respect and cooperation
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I didn't say "symmetric", I said "more symmetric". I realize that it can never be symmetric. (And maybe shouldn't.=
	Neal Kendrick	see my question is though should it be symetric? they are 2 entirely different dev teams. but i don't think ll does it purposely though.
	Wolfpup	btw Oz how is the progress on the OSdev build farm going?
07:08	Oz Linden	let's put it at that end of the list, WP
	Cummere Mayo	i think one of the biggest dev complaints i hear over and over is "I made a patch for a long exisitng bug and its just sitting there"
	Wolfpup	ok
	Oz Linden	yes, that happens
	Cummere Mayo	which is much of the used and abused feelings come from
		*which is where
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I think such a queue would be a good idea per se. But I hope that it wouldn't make progress for issues not on the queue any slower than it is.
	Oz Linden	The unhappy thing is that right now there are only a couple of us on the receiving end, and we can't always keep up
07:09	Cummere Mayo	totally understand oz....
	Oz Linden	we pick things to work on based on our priorities, and sometimes that will mean that things sit for a while
	Neal Kendrick	bugs tend to take a long time to get right though. it's about progression and at times theres other things that need work as what my experience is.
	Cummere Mayo	im not saying this is your (personal) fault
07:10	Oz Linden	Hopefully that situation will improve, but it will never be perfect
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	im guessing once a bug has been fixed it need to go through LLs QA dept right?!
		well a patch i mean
	Oz Linden	lately, alas, I've been kept very busy picking up some of the things Q did
		yes, it does
		anyway - that's where this idea of a priority queue came from, in part
	Neal Kendrick	you mean q linden oz?
07:11	Oz Linden	yes, that's who I meant
	Cummere Mayo	yes patnad... often it goes through code review, testing by people such as me and then QA
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	maybe there should be a direct process where OS dev just contact QAs saying hey here is my patch please test it out
	Neal Kendrick	ahh that slacker :P
	Cummere Mayo	one of the awesome things that has been done lately is the PO builds shared to the entire os-dev list
	Oz Linden	We don't have the QA resources for that... they're kept quite busy with things that have already been through integration
07:12	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	well then why having OSdev at all
	Oz Linden	yes, and I think we're going to do those even more frequently
		why not?
		we like osdevs.... by the way....
	Cummere Mayo	patnab because many of our most important fixes have been done by osdevs
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	i dont see the point of coding if the patch will never be picked up
07:13	Neal Kendrick	It seems the lab has alot of the things they have to work on. And sometimes for osdevs it doesn't happen the way they want it too. But the lab does try to meet everyone needs as of what i've seen.
	Oz Linden	Check this out.... http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Community-Feedback/Kudos-to-Linden-Lab/td-p/720009
	Cummere Mayo	in fact .... id say thats probably where at least half the work being done is coming from?
	Oz Linden	no, it's not nearly half, Cummere, but it is significant and getting larger
07:14	Neal Kendrick	i have to agree with that oz. 2.5 is quite faster then other builds of the sl viewer.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	How about letting the community do part of the QA? Off course, that'd require some education about the processes and requirements, but that's something that could probably be passed on.
	Oz Linden	that blog post got passed around to viewer devs in LL
		all but one of the changes that were praised there came from open devs through Snowstorm, so congratulations!
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	:-)
07:15	Oz Linden	the community does do a lot of QA
		that doesn't mean that we get to skip ours
	Cummere Mayo	and you shouldnt
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	dont get me wrong tho im not saying LL is doing a bad job..
	Cummere Mayo	we dont catch everything
	Neal Kendrick	I found a delay in display names in 2.5 though. Seems as if the viewer doesn't change the name right away after chaning it on the web profiles.
07:16	Oz Linden	An important principle applys: you can share responsibility, but that doesn't reduce your share
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	true
	Cummere Mayo	neal thats not just dn's that seems to be everything run through web profiles
	Neal Kendrick	Yes very true oz.
	Jonathan	Good morning everyone, I was afk
	Oz Linden	If I ask residents to test something and they accept that responsibility, that doesn't reduce my responsibility to ensure that it's correct when I integrate a change
	Neal Kendrick	And yeah cummere i have noticed that.
07:17	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	i dont really like the web profiles :/
	Neal Kendrick	Very true oz. That's why your a linden xD
	Oz Linden	Hi Jonathan... thought you were sailing ?
07:18	Neal Kendrick	Oz i love your dog perl...heheh
	Oz Linden	Web profiles are not something I can do much about right now, and not really on topic here/now
	Cummere Mayo	oz for what its worth, i think the lindens on snowstrom really do an impresive job considering that imo you have 1/4 the minimum number of lindens I personally feel you guys need to have
	Jonathan	I had barnacle troubles and had to return to base; the diver just finished up with e
	Oz Linden	well, we'll see.... I may get more some day
	Jonathan	*me
07:19	Oz Linden	(digression) - how far north will you be going, Jonathan?
	Jonathan	I'm going about 40 miles north of Boston
	Oz Linden	Well, let me know when you get up here and I'll take you out to lunch
07:20	Jonathan	I look forward to it
	Cummere Mayo	nice!
	Neal Kendrick	That is very true cummere. Snowstorm has been a very big success. Snowglobe was by far a great success and i'm glad the lab has opened it's doors to osdevs.
	Oz Linden	One of my retirement fantasies is to live on a trimaran
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Oz ... when issues from the community get stuck ... what's the bottleneck usually? It might not even be QA.
	Neal Kendrick	Oh nice oz :)
	Cummere Mayo	Jonathan I wish you fun and safe sailing when you finally get to :)
07:21	Jonathan	Thank you Cummere
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	oh Oz, i had a question i asked other lindens but they said you were the best to ask to, do you have any stats about how many ppl using SL viewer 2.x
	Oz Linden	I'm not sure that I can identify any more specific problem than that there just isn't enough attention to go around
	Neal Kendrick	Well, thats why you have the community oz :)
07:22	Cummere Mayo	boroondas, actually I can partially answer that
	Oz Linden	we try to pick the ones with the broadest impact, but there's also and "easiness" factor - if something is small and easy to review, it's more likely to get attention quicky because we can finish it quickly
	Cummere Mayo	I know of two places and one of them when i have time i try to help with.... 1) they get lost in the jira.... sometimes cuase they arent properly marked, and sometimes cuase the jira itself is lost
07:23	Neal Kendrick	Nothing wrong with that oz xD
	Oz Linden	yes, the VWR jira is a mess
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	uhm then i think the idea you proposed (about having a queue for OSDev) will probably fix some of the issue regarding delay
07:24	Oz Linden	In some sense I'd like to just take an axe to it and close all but about 400 issues
	Cummere Mayo	2) when patches need updated or turn otu to have a conflict its sometimes very hard to find the time to get back with the dev that made and submitted the patch
	Neal Kendrick	Yeah, but i have to admit the redzone jira isn't helping either though oz.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	So issues that are difficult to review and/or of low impact might get postponed forever, even when they have working fixes, as there will always be (newer) issues that are easier or more important (to LL)?
	Oz Linden	but I'm not sure my fireproof suit would hold up
07:25		yes, there is some danger of that, Boroondas, but we'll try not to let them drag on forever
		but here's an example we get a lot.....
	Cummere Mayo	oz if there was a sprint you were going to be doing allot of meetings and interviews i'd actually suggest doing just that oz... though maybe 1000 instead of 400 >.>
	Oz Linden	if people submit build-related issues for a platform we don't support
		they don't affect any normal users at all
07:26		they don't even affect developers who are working on platforms we do support
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	sounds familiar to me ;-)
	Cummere Mayo	lol
	Oz Linden	I imagine
07:27	Neal Kendrick	Just out of curiosity oz is xmpp live on aditi yet?
		i know thats off topic just curious though.
	Oz Linden	it's not something I'm happy about - I'd love to support more platforms and more future-oriented ones
	Cummere Mayo	as a sidenote about unsupported platforms: it does amaze me sometimes how many clients we have running around claiming to be running on commodore 64s and apple IIe's
	Oz Linden	but when it's competing for attention with something that will affect all viewer users....
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	hu?
	Oz Linden	what would you pick?
07:28		there are xmpp services up, but I don't know detailed status on them yet, Neal
	Neal Kendrick	Honestly, id pick the platform currently being used. And try to stick weith it. Then try and support futue ones.
	Oz Linden	well, that's what we do
07:29	Neal Kendrick	It's easier.
	Oz Linden	I sympatize with Linux devs - I have been one for many years
07:30	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Tough call. But not merging build fixes keeps those devs who need them busy porting them forward, so they have less time tackling the issues that might be important to LL and/or the general public. In the end, merging them quickly might give you a net. win on non-build issues, too.
	Oz Linden	but I don't have any illusions about how many linux users there are, so things that don't affect users on other platforms just don't get many points for impact
	Neal Kendrick	But i have found it easier though to build on linux though oz. But windows is what im more familiar with.
	Oz Linden	yes, well, we're trying to make the build process more uniform
		anyway...
	Cummere Mayo	anyways we've spent half the meeting on the first topic... any chance we could skip to topics 3 and 4 oz
07:31	Oz Linden	... on the current topic... I will set up an os-dev-wish-list queue of some kind and we'll talk about it next time
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	cool
	Cummere Mayo	yay!
	Neal Kendrick	Sounds good.
	Oz Linden	well, #3 is easy ... I just keep forgetting to get someone to reset the forgotten password so that I can fix it
		I'll try again
07:32	Jonathan	Oz, the flip side of that idea -- if we had a place to list jiras that we have worked on -- maybe that would be more streamlined than trying to get them decided on at an hour-long meeting.
	Wolfpup	ya some thing like the new open jira catigory
07:33	Oz Linden	Patnad asked about user counts... yes, we have incredibly rich stats on that and lots of other things, but we don't share the details
	Neal Kendrick	Yes i agree. I think it would make it easier maybe to like categorize the importance of the jiras too.
07:34	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	We don't need details. Can you share summaries?
07:35	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	id like to know %% of ppl using v1.23 base vs 2.x
07:36	Neal Kendrick	I just think for everyone's sake. Taking the importance of a bigger problem then taking the smaller problems on a level scale of the issue. Like 5 being the up most importance for instance viewer having issues connecting to the grid. Or payment issues in the viewer...as a smeller one. You know?
	Oz Linden	Well, at present, Phoenix is the most often used viewer, then our current viewer, then Imprudence (if I remember right)
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	so basicly more ppl still use 1.23 base then
07:37	Lord Noob	phoenix is snow 1.5 based
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	that might change soon tho i head phoenix moving to 2.x
	Oz Linden	In theory, we order the stuff in the Backlog in rough priority order
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Sounds so, but don't forget that phoenix and imrpu both have quite some 2.x features backported.
	Neal Kendrick	Well, thats because people loved emerald. Phoenix brings emerald to them without all the nasty mailicious code in it. And i have4 to say for the phoenix team. Their support may not be great but their coding is for sure awesome.
	Oz Linden	I have not looked at it lately, so I don't know how that is doing in practice at the moment
	Lord Noob	firestorm is our v2 port and its still in alpha (based on v2.4 currently)
07:38		but less than 2000 people use it currently
	Cummere Mayo	tank have you guys fixed the annoying issue with the top bar not properly responding to its settings on load?
	Lord Noob	we havent changed the top bar
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	cool that pretty much answered my question ㋡
	Lord Noob	yet anyway
07:39	Cummere Mayo	darn... cause its my currant pet peeve with firestorm
	Oz Linden	I do want to do the Open triage - we only have 2 issues
	Neal Kendrick	Don't get me wrong the phoenix support team has a 24/7 operation. But it doesn't mean it's really great support. But phoenix does do some amazing code for the users. And provides an easier to use system then let's say imprudence or viewer 2 or any of those.
	Cummere Mayo	i set it to not display something and despite keeping the setting when i relog it does it anyways
	Oz Linden	open-43
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-43 OPEN-43 Autobuild2010 package project does not place LindenDeveloper.exe in build-vc100/newview/RelWithDebInfo
07:40	Wolfpup	Oz on that one for some reason it is sliently fain to copy secondlife-bin to LindenDeveloper
	Oz Linden	I don't really understand this one... it does not describe what the effect is
	Neal Kendrick	Yeah, im still at trying to get autobuild to work there oz.
07:41	Wolfpup	I did a build with NickyP repository last nigh and then searched the repositoy for LindenDeveloper and it was not found at all
	Oz Linden	does this mean that the resulting installer does not work? (I don't know windows installer tech much at all)
	Wolfpup	that is correct
07:42	Oz Linden	don't talk to me about Nickys repo
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	what /is/ LindenDeveloper.exe? never heard about that program, yet.
	Wolfpup	as the target exe is not there
	Neal Kendrick	Yeah, it sounds it oz.
	Oz Linden	I want to know what my repo does
	Jonathan	Oz, I can't use your repo on Windows. Nicky has fixed a number of issues
	Wolfpup	Boroondas LindenDiveloper is the viewer itsself
07:43		Oz nickyP's repository is based off of yours
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ah? I thought it was named SecondLife.exe on Windows?
	Wolfpup	that is for the release
	Neal Kendrick	That's what i thought.
	Oz Linden	I expect to have a short period (days) during which the Snowstorm team won't be moving much into viewer-development (while an larger internal project does so), so I expect to spend a lot of time on the autobuild and vs2010 stuff this week
07:44	Cummere Mayo	perks up
	Oz Linden	is not going to tell you about that project
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	this is the best place to start if we want to try building the viewer right? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nicky_Perian/Visual_Studio_10_Autobuild
	Jonathan	It would be nice if your repo could incorporate Nicky's changes.
	Neal Kendrick	Why would the release be any different then the beta or private version? i mean they sre the same extension rigfht?
	Cummere Mayo	oz: tease!
	Wolfpup	Oz NickyP's repositoy fixes a lot of build issues for VC10autobuild
07:45	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	2.6 will include mesh?? that project ^^
	Lord Noob	can guess the project but wont say :P
	Oz Linden	one of the things I'll be doing is looking at them, but first I need to get synched up with the changes in the jenn_linden/viewer-vs2010 repo
	Wolfpup	but there is still the issue of building secondlif-bin takeing too much heap space durning compile
07:46		if it dose then OS devs will be out of the loop for a while till convexdecop is opensourced
07:47	Oz Linden	that will be sorted out by the time mesh merges, Wolfpup
	Neal Kendrick	i dont think that would be the case would it? i mean they could esily just use the old method of building the viewer right?
	Wolfpup	i hope so as i can not even build the mesh viewer localy
	Oz Linden	ok... so open-43 affects developer builds - does it affect release builds, or is that different?
07:48	Neal Kendrick	I'll have to give it a go oz i haven't tried it yet.
	Wolfpup	Oz the build i did last night was in release mode and still not lindendeveloper file
07:49	Oz Linden	I'll have to send this back for more info....
		open-37
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-37 OPEN-37 Cmake errors when using autobuild with Visual Studio 10(VS2010)
	Wolfpup	oz for some reason the python script to make the new exe file is not working
07:50	Neal Kendrick	thx to whomever gave the link for nickies build process...that looks so much easier actually.
	Oz Linden	again... I need to know if this works on my repo - (oz_linden/viewer-autobuild2010) ... it won't surprise me if it does not, but basically I don't want any bug reports against any other repo
	Wolfpup	Oz that one has to have the dev actualy patch Cmake its self to get the right flags for VC10
07:51	Oz Linden	There are many Lindens successfully building with vs2010, Wolfpup
		it is just not true that cannot be done...
	Wolfpup	Oz they are on MUCH powerfull systems
	Jonathan	Oz, then you need to make it a priority to incorporate Nicky's changes -- us Express users need his tweaks
07:52	Oz Linden	yes, I know that express support is a problem
	Wolfpup	im on a 32-bit dual core and maxed @ 4GB of mem
	Neal Kendrick	But see now would the developer using 2010 need extra files like boost? or any other lib or fmod file though oz?
	Oz Linden	I'll keep this one around for a while, but I'll want it retested later this week when we get my 2010 repo working on our systems (it is somewhat behind jenns repo)
07:53	Wolfpup	plus there are tweaks for those with 4GB or les of memory
	Oz Linden	we've got autobuild packages for all the windows dependencies now
	Cummere Mayo	's sytem cant even support more then 4 gig memory T.T
07:54	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	ill try to give it another shot, i havent been able to compile SL`s viewer yet
	Neal Kendrick	I am using a 6 year old computer to do all this. Lol, i got my tablet running win7 with 4gb of ram and support for only 32 bit software.
	Oz Linden	I'll get some info on how our windows dev systems are set up
	Cummere Mayo	anyways... oz can we take the last 5 minutes to discuss the last agenda item?
	Patnad - RezzMe Technologies	im used to click the run button and bang it runs eheh
	Wolfpup	Oz configureing for building the dependancise is interesting for us OS devs
07:55		just look @ my comments in the one merov is working on
	Lord Noob	coughs
		hope that smoke isnt toxic
		:P
	Wolfpup	Oz also if you pull in merov's curren Fmod fixes it will help
07:56	Neal Kendrick	keels over and dies lol
	Oz Linden	ok... well, watch for updates to my autobuild repos is all I can say at the moment
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	That might depend on the material the prim is set to. Hope it's wood, not rubber.
	Oz Linden	it's glass, if I remember right
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Hmm ... glass shouldn't be able to burn.
	Oz Linden	still wants a good timer-expiration effect....
07:57		anything will burn if you get it hot enough
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	tic-tac tic-tac boooooom
	Cummere Mayo	4) Problems with the most recent po and v-d builds... 1. huge cpu and memory speed up when restoring very active groups or ims from mininimized 2. increasing login issues including but not limited to storm-526 3. crash on logout
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-526 STORM-526 Log out failure during Login causes loss of pending offers, including inventory
	Jonathan	Oz, you could have the sea level slowly rise :)
	Wolfpup	Boroondas if glass gets hot enought it will vaporise
	Neal Kendrick	You should get one that explodes oz and has a big boom lmao.
	Wolfpup	Boroondas how do you think the make IC chips
07:58		IC's are made of glass
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Kinda yes.
	Oz Linden	Put those issues on the agenda for the viewer meeting tomorrow, please, Cummere
	Cummere Mayo	okay will do
	Neal Kendrick	Like a bomb you know? And it goes count down to termination has been initiated 5...4....3....2....1....BOOM!
	Wolfpup	they are made fron slica and so is glass just at different melting temps
	Oz Linden	I've got another meeting, so I've got to wrap up.... thanks for coming everyone
	Cummere Mayo	merovs meeting?
07:59	Wolfpup	you tc Oz
	Cummere Mayo	tc oz
	Lord Noob	tyhx for the info and the time
	Neal Kendrick	Thanks for having us oz always a pleasure xD
	Oz Linden	sorry - the Wednesday Viewer User Group meeting
	Lord Noob	have a good day :)
	Office Orb	End transcription
	Jonathan	btw oz, could you tell us where the transcripts are going now?