Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-04-06

08:01	Wolfpup	hey Oz
	Ima Mechanique	hiya Oz
	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning, Oz
	JayR Cela	hi there OZ :_)
08:02	Ann Otoole	hello Oz
	Oz Linden	laggin....
		needs a new chair... this one is too formal
08:03	JayR Cela	lagging / i thought that was a built in feature / LOL :_)
	Wolfpup	the AV physic is built in now
	Oz Linden	better
08:04	JayR Cela	ok i'll try it out today
	Oz Linden	Hi everyone
	TriloByte Zanzibar	unfortunately it broke multi-wearables a bit, hopefully Nyx gets it fixed before that goes to beta
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	howdy
	Zi Ree	mew
08:05	Wolfpup	Trilo it only broke one aspect og the multi-wearables
	Oz Linden	If we have anyone on Windows 7 that might be able to help track down VWR-25444
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25444 VWR-25444 Win7: 2.6.3 Beta1 crashes on startup if locale differs from English
	JayR Cela	hmmmm
	TriloByte Zanzibar	broken nonetheless
	Oz Linden	that's going to block this weeks beta unless we fix it soon
	JayR Cela	Process explorer may be able to help track down that bug
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Nyx cloned it on an SHN issue, and has already put some time in on it
08:06	Wolfpup	you just cant add a nother of a given layer from the inventory but you stil can via my outfits
	TriloByte Zanzibar	unfortunately not everybody keeps all their clothing items in predefined outfits already, wolf
	Oz Linden	I think we'll have a fix for the wearables problem, and that might not be a beta blocker (would block general release)
08:07	Qie	would need to be noted prominently, though. It's mighty confusing.
	Oz Linden	Yes, true
		Anyway... to the agenda
	JayR Cela	http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653
	Oz Linden	Item 1 - moving the time for this meeting
08:08	TriloByte Zanzibar	when to?
	JayR Cela	ok / ho[pe you change the calander
	Oz Linden	Since I'm running this and an Open Development meeting on the same day, I'd rather move this one
		I will
	JayR Cela	kool :_)
	Wolfpup	i hope it is not to much later
	draconis.neurocam	fridays are usually pretty empty
		on the calendar
08:09	Oz Linden	I'm inclined to try this same time but on Fridays...
		reactions?
	Wolfpup	< would not mind if it was on thursday
	JayR Cela	sound ok to me
	Qie	(fine here)
	draconis.neurocam	makes sense considering
	Wolfpup	< would not be able to attend at all with new RL work schedual
	Oz Linden	Thursday is a pretty big day on our new release schedule... I'm afraid I might have to cancel to often for some firefight
08:10	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i wont be able to make fridays at this time....
08:11	Oz Linden	Maybe what I'll do is try Friday next week and see how it goes....
	Wolfpup	< keeps and updated work schedual online in google Calenders
08:12	TriloByte Zanzibar	there will be occasional days when I'd have to miss due to conflict or just away, but don't see it as a problem
	Oz Linden	nothing is set in stone.... I will update the calendar (whether or not that will work may be another thing)
	JayR Cela	ok
	TriloByte Zanzibar	sounds good
08:13	Oz Linden	Friday has the advantage for me that it's a no-change day, so it won't conflict with any possible releases
	JayR Cela	so.. lets discuss skin's
	Oz Linden	add it to the end of the agenda, JayR
08:14	JayR Cela	ok
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
		vwr-24731
		hmmmm.... helper fail?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	vwr-24371
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24371 VWR-24371 Flared/Loose Clothing seen as Not Flared/Tight by other avatars
	Oz Linden	anyway - GPU table support
08:15	Ima Mechanique	was it built into the chair? ;-)
	Oz Linden	must have mentioned it earlier
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, you were checking into how that's updated or something
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	oh, do you want me to upload my GPU table i put into Firestorm there?
	Oz Linden	So.... I'm putting this on my plate for our sprint that starts next week
08:16		I would like it if you'd attach that, yes please
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
	Oz Linden	The copy that's in the viewer source isn't really the one that's normally used
	TriloByte Zanzibar	what info do you need in order to add specific gpu's? I can do the legwork on all the mac hardware
	Oz Linden	there's one that's downloaded at run time that overrides that
08:17	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i added a lot of GPUs to ours
	Oz Linden	so I have to find out how to get the online one updated and then try to make them track
	TriloByte Zanzibar	is there a way to get a copy of that?
	Oz Linden	I don't have the URL handy but if you rummage in a viewer log you can find it, I think
		don't know if it needs a capability or not
08:18	TriloByte Zanzibar	I've tried the URL, it can't be grabbed/viewed via browser
	Oz Linden	I would like to set up a regular process by which the community can help us maintain that
08:19		it's a big job so spreading it around would be useful
		Next:
		VWR-7677 Also STORM-761 Windlight (added by TriloByte Zanzibar)
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-761 STORM-761 As a SL developer, I want to help unblock development of Windlight Estate Settings code so that we can move forward with this feature development
		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677 VWR-7677 Estate / Sim Windlight preset / day cycle options
	JayR Cela	http://www.tweakforce.com/ should have everything you need as far as video drivers are concearned
08:20	Oz Linden	(add that note to the issue please JayR)
08:21	JayR Cela	please do this for me OZ
	Oz Linden	is storm-1126 visible ?
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1126 STORM-1126 Windlight Region Settings
	Oz Linden	I guess so....
		that's the one to watch for progress on this
	TriloByte Zanzibar	i see storm-1126. ok, thanks
	Oz Linden	We're making progress on it
08:22	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent
		Silly question, but what's the current sprint number?
08:23	Oz Linden	Code isn't ready to put in public yet, but we've got quite a bit working and I'm trying to get that into the release calendar
		current sprint is 13 but that ends Friday
		(I think....)
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	yeah 13
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ok. I see a range of numbers spread over assorted jira's, wasn't sure where current was
08:24	Oz Linden	Grumpity is working on archiving the old sprints so that it won't be so confusing
	Qie	so, umm... long term, it would be nice if this were also available at the parcel level (for Mainland), and create a first-class asset (so it could be exchanged)... but just seeing *something* will be a big win.
	Oz Linden	parcel level is not currently under consideration
08:25	Qie	I know
	Oz Linden	making it an asset would be more interesting, but I don't want to hold up making the basic feature available for that
	Qie	indeed... *very* agreed.
08:26	Oz Linden	but we'll see what the product review process decides about all that....
		it helps that Rodvik mentioned it in his sluniverse post :-)
08:27		Next : VWR-25260
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25260 VWR-25260 Ability to synch landmarks between alts on the same computer
	Zi Ree	Em ... just copy them?
	Oz Linden	I would like to re-write or replace this to be about being able to exchange large numbers of iterms
		items
08:28	Zi Ree	Landmarks can't be just created without visiting the place, right?
	Oz Linden	I could use some help from you all on characterizing what actually works now
08:29		Creating landmarks is a different issue - this is about exchanging them, but I'd like to generalize it to exchanging any assets (that you are allowed to exchange) by putting them in a prim or something
08:30	Zi Ree	Syncing to alts on the same computer ... I interpreted that as exporft/import.
	Ima Mechanique	dragging a folder to a profile?
	Zi Ree	Otherwise you can just copy them over in a folder.
	Qie	the problem is the limit on the number of items that can be "shared" at the same time, or dragged into an object. (42? or... something)
08:31	Oz Linden	So... if I create a new issue for that problem and link this as a use case, would someone help me actually test what those limits are?
	Zi Ree	Current limit is 42, yes.
	Oz Linden	I've done some asking around about them, and it's not clear that there is any need for limits nearly that low now
08:32		those were based on UDP packet sizes that need no longer apply
	JayR Cela	well lets face it / the OutFit Folder is the best thing to ever happen to SL. And in that respect V2 is a total sucess
	Oz Linden	Be careful, JayR ... you'll ruin your hater reputation saying things like that
08:33	Tonya Souther	grins.
	JayR Cela	lol
	Zi Ree	Invenory Links in General are a huge win.
	Oz Linden	Ok... so next week I'll be looking for a volunteer for this
	draconis.neurocam	oz i would be willing to help test it, would need specifics of things you want tested though
	JayR Cela	ok i shut up
08:34	Ima Mechanique	barring last minute emergencies I can help too
	Oz Linden	great
		next item is the media filter....
08:35	Tonya Souther	earperks.
	Oz Linden	I've continued to work on that one with Tonya and owe her a look at the latest version....
	JayR Cela	media filter *What Me Worry" / Dead issue
08:36	Oz Linden	I think that's probably about ready for me to take to the internal review process, which is getting sorted out (we've been re-orging a bit again)
		STORM-26
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-26 STORM-26 As a Power User, I want to be able to use Keyboard Shortcuts to control the Viewer 2 UI. Some of the keyboard shortcuts have changed since Viewer 1.23. I want those updated and also want new keyboard shortcuts to allow me to control the new Viewer 2 UI.
	Tonya Souther	There are a couple more things I'd like to add, but they're pretty minor.
	Oz Linden	and VWR-2085
08:37		The snowstorm team is going to push the general problem of keyboard shortcuts off our backlog for now (and back to the general VWR backlog)
08:38		I'm willing to fiddle with the specific one for hiding the UI on linux if someone makes a current patch for it and promisses to deal with the complaints when that breaks some other window system on some other linux
08:39		personally, I think it's hopeless
	draconis.neurocam	i saw some references to keyboard shortcuts in the headless viewer stuff that got merged in from SWAT, but im not sure of the extent
	Zi Ree	Unlikely to happen ;)
	Oz Linden	has used too many window managers on too many distros
	Zi Ree	ctrl alt f1 is not a window manager shrtcut.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	what happened? I thought user customization was a good thing?
08:40	Oz Linden	it is a good thing - it's just too big a job
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ah
	Oz Linden	If they'll give me a couple more people to do it with, I'll sign up for it in no time
	Qie	kbd shortcuts does kinda belong with skinning, now that I think about it.
08:41	TriloByte Zanzibar	I agree, skinning and keyboard mapping go hand in hand (in my head, anyway)
	Oz Linden	There's a lot of follow-on thinking about UI inspired by how to evolve the Basic mode, and much of that is going to spilll over into changes to the Advanced mode too
	Zi Ree	The shortcuts are defined in the skins.
	JayR Cela	how many Linux folk's here ?
	Zi Ree	*raises paw*
	Oz Linden	here at this meeting, or here in SL?
08:42	JayR Cela	in this meeting ?
	Qie	(here)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	speaking of giving you a couple heads, anything you can share regarding meetings with bosses? are there any plans to fill the vacancies created by Q & Esbee's departures?
	Oz Linden	I don't expect to get replacements for them
08:43		Snowstorm continues, but we'll have to have a somewhat more narrow scope
		I'm going to continue to be the public spokesperson for how we evolve the viewer, but I'm not the final authority
08:44	Tonya Souther	hi, Bambers.
	draconis.neurocam	hello bambers
	Bambers	Hi :)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Hi Bambers
	Oz Linden	I will occasionally have other Lindens come by to discuss particular issues as needed
	JayR Cela	ok Linux is what the web in general run's on / Window's is / hmmmm 80%% / Mac's I use those for audio purposes / so where do we stand ?
08:45	Oz Linden	I'm going to pause the normal agenda here.... I invited Bambers here today because he and I have been talking about getting more resident help on testing - especially for Beta versions, and I want to give him some time to discuss it
	Bambers	hi everyone :)
08:46	Ima Mechanique	hi Bambers
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	Bambers	I'm not sure what the usual agenda is for these meetings, but I know I've met with some of you before, at my old office hours
	JayR Cela	hi there Bambers " I'll be more than hapy to help out "
08:47	Bambers	Once upon a time we would triage issues found with Beta Viewers, and I'm planning to kick that off again
	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent
08:48	Bambers	this time the approach would be 2-pronged. We'd look at upcoming betas and devise user stories to direct the beta testing effort
		then we can take the issues found and direct them back to the development effort
	TriloByte Zanzibar	regressions need to be caught and addresed before rollout :)
08:49	JayR Cela	ok we coming up to the hour / what about skins ?
	Oz Linden	I can run a little long today
	Bambers	yes - having the more experienced input of our current beta testers and open source contributors, and directing it at new builds in controlled ways, should increase the chances of finding regressions before we ship to all
08:50		I'll wrap it up with:
	TriloByte Zanzibar	is there a date/time you'd like to start doing some kind of triage session?
	Bambers	I'll probably start the effort off with a user group like this
	JayR Cela	Kirstens is pretty kool /
08:51		but is way to complicated
	Bambers	date and time, and content, TBD but please drop by when I spin them up and help us get the word out. And, of course, break it :)
	Wolfpup	< is always useing an alph version Viewer
	TriloByte Zanzibar	has warm & fuzzy BSI flashbacks
	draconis.neurocam	smiles
	Wolfpup	lol Trilo
08:52	TriloByte Zanzibar	that's where I've been lately too, wolf.. save for when I need to run a release or beta to repro something
	Bambers	(FWIW I intend to follow Oskar's SBUG model, which some of you I think are familiar with) More later. Thanks Oz
	Oz Linden	Thanks for coming, Bambers
	draconis.neurocam	indeed
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	good to know, thx ㋡
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, thanks for coming, and do keep us posted
08:53	Bambers	thanks for letting me gate crash! Apologies for causing an over-run, but I appreciate your time :)
	Oz Linden	Haravikk is not here, and I don't really have any updates on those last two items on the list.
	Wolfpup	thx for comeing Bambers
	Oz Linden	So I'll take a moment or two to talk about skins....
08:54		first, 'skins' is one of those terms I try to avoid, because it means different things to different people
	TriloByte Zanzibar	"workspace" perhaps?
08:55	Oz Linden	So I'd rather talk about some more specific customizations and where I think we're going....
	JayR Cela	ok / let me say this much......
		and I will probabaly get trashed on this issue but....
	Oz Linden	... note however, my earlier comment ... there's a lot of thinking going on within the lab on related issues, and nothing I say should be considered a "plan" yet
08:56	JayR Cela	the V2 skin is lousey
	Oz Linden	anyone surprised that JayR feels that way?
	Tonya Souther	grins.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	lol
	Zi Ree	The UI itself is less than ideal, not only the skin (color, design, design).
	Tonya Souther	It's a feeling shared around the Phoenix team.
	Zi Ree	-design
	JayR Cela	why cant you at least change the lackluster color svheme ?
	draconis.neurocam	ive grown to like it >.>
	Oz Linden	let's not get into that ... I'd rather deal with some particular specific issues now
08:57		I'll get back to colors in a moment....
	JayR Cela	ok I understand you are fixing bug's
	Oz Linden	I'm meeting later today to discuss STORM-2
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2 STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
	Wolfpup	< wishes there was a 'silver' skin for the viewer like in the 1.x code base
08:58	Ima Mechanique	totally agreed Wolfpup
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I recall a project build on that a while back. lots of issues, but the idea's great
	Oz Linden	Hint: the term "skin" will cause anything you say to be ignored
	Nicholas Avenell	The problem we (and this Languagelab.com) had with Basic was that it means new users come in without voice or inventory, both of which we kind of need them to have.
	Ima Mechanique	okay silver/blue colour scheme ;-)
	Wolfpup	yes
08:59	Oz Linden	There are a couple of sets of changes I want to do....
		1) be able to save and restore named confgurations of all floaters, including positions and open/closed state
09:00		so I can open a set of windows (chat, inventory, etc) that I use for some activity, arrange and resize them, and then save that with a name
		then I can get back to that same layout by picking that name from a menu (or something... not married to any ui yet)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	build/edit too? I recall that one being ignored before
09:01	Oz Linden	I dont' think the idea works unless every window we have is part of it
	TriloByte Zanzibar	agreed
	Tonya Souther	good.
	Nicholas Avenell	Being able to switch configuations without restarting would be great
	Oz Linden	which may make it hard... I don't know
	Tonya Souther	Gotta run...see everyone later.
	Qie	(actually, that's an important tangent: the future of "Basic" mode. If it's intended to be "that which might reasonably be supported in HTML5+WebGL", that's one thing. If it's to remain a "configuration" of the standard viewer, that's likely to be something very different for a while.)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'd love to have an easy to call up setting for 'building' or 'social' etc
09:02	Zi Ree	Doesn't sound that complicated, as long as you don't move UI elements around.
	Oz Linden	the sort of named layouts I'm talking about would not require a restart
		which is different than the Basic/Advanced transitions
	TriloByte Zanzibar	right
	draconis.neurocam	would this override the current behavior of moving things without presets?
09:03	Oz Linden	I don't understand the question, draconis
	Nicholas Avenell	But wouldn't basic/advanced boil down to choosing one of these layouts, eventually?
	draconis.neurocam	basically, if you did not want to use a preset, but just wanted to move floaters by hand, ie not lock the floaters down once they are in a preset
	Oz Linden	no, basic/advanced has other implications now... how that will change, I don't know
09:04	Zi Ree	I cuess the current floater positions would be saved at logout as they are now.
	Oz Linden	oh, yeah ... I wouldn't want to change that.. .a preset is just a shortcut that gets you to some saved state... otherwise everyting remains configurable
	Zi Ree	But you can recall presets you made yourself at runtime.
	draconis.neurocam	right
	Oz Linden	or moveable, rather
	draconis.neurocam	thats all i was asking, good
	Oz Linden	I don't think it should affect the login/logout behavior, no
09:05		the second thing I'd like to explore, and this is probably harder and certainly a bit more speculative on my part, is color schemes
09:06		I'd like to be able to define a set of color (including alpha) for UI element types - some reasonably small set
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I imagine it's doable
09:07	Oz Linden	so "bottom bar button" , "favorite bar item", "frame background", things like that
		and then let people change those generic colors and save the results as a named set
	Ima Mechanique	oooh yes!
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the UI graphical assets would need to be redone in grayscale, then you could probably use the same kind of coding that lets you change colors for text/selection beam
	Oz Linden	locally at first - not an asset type
09:08		that way, people that want a disappearing ui where most things are transparent, or one where the colors are 60's psychedelic, could just do it
09:09	draconis.neurocam	sounds good
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	agreed
09:10	TriloByte Zanzibar	makes sense
	Qie	this sounds pretty good... I'm still trying to convince myself that an activity can be supported by a layout, without the need for different window behaviors + control widgets. It's at least a big step in the right direction.
	Oz Linden	One thing I do _not_ want to attempt any time soon is for people to be able to relocate controls or reorder menus or any of the other things that can be done by writing custom XUI files
		it's too much of an upgrade/support hassle
09:11	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	yeah, support wouldnt like that at all :P
	Zi Ree	Have a "support-mode" layout :P
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thats be "default"
09:12	Oz Linden	Personally, I do like the alternative bottom bar icons that Firestorm did, and the fact that they let the sidebar tabs move down to the bottom bar
	TriloByte Zanzibar	me too
	Qie	yes
	Oz Linden	but I have not started that conversation with anyone else in LL yet
		so....
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	let us know if you want a patch
09:13	Oz Linden	I hope to get both of those customization ideas on the Snowstorm backlog
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I also like the idea of having icons for the buttons where an obvious one exists (ie snapshots, wearing, etc). make sure the bottom bar is space-efficient
	Oz Linden	the bottom bar is something of an implementation swamp.. ask Wolfpup some time
	Zi Ree	>.<
09:14	Oz Linden	but I agree
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i think someone is working on being able to show/hide text lables for the icons at the bottome w/o needing to change Ut theams
09:15	Oz Linden	So ... it's not "skins" , and it's not nearly set even in jello, but that's the direction I'd like to go for the next few sprints
	Wolfpup	yes if the view button showed a a camera like in the view floater it would take up less space and not actualy need to be translated across languages
	Zi Ree	You still want to keep an alternative with text labels.
	Ima Mechanique	still should have language dependant tooltips
	Oz Linden	yes, icons have the advantage that they are equally obscure in all languages :-)
09:16	TriloByte Zanzibar	floating text tooltips would still need localization, but that's easier than graphical button localization
	Wolfpup	true as the tool tips are not as size restrictive
	Zi Ree	A good UI reshapes itself :P
	Oz Linden	I have no idea what the UI folks think about that, other than the obvious fact that we have text labels now, so someone must have thought that was a good idea
09:17	Wolfpup	text is easier till you have the icons avail
	Oz Linden	but one advantage (probably the only one) of all the turnover we've had lately is that it's not so hard to revisit decisons
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	its easier to determine what the icon symbol actually means...
	Oz Linden	(witness the fact that we've integrated avatar physics)
09:18	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	yeah, thats great ㋡
	Zi Ree	grumbles just a tiny bit ;)
	Ima Mechanique	you mean jigglies was once not liked?
	Wolfpup	< would not mind seeing the physics in 'action'
	Oz Linden	I need to grab some food before my scrum, so I'm going to stop here....
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
	draconis.neurocam	take care oz
09:19	Qie	Thanks, Oz.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thx for all your time
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I need to get running as well. cheers
	Ima Mechanique	take care, and thanks for the extended time ;-)
	Oz Linden	Watch the calendar and the mailing list for next weeks time