Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-13

08:01	Tonya Souther	Morning, Oz.
08:02	Oz Linden	Hi everyone
	Ima Mechanique	hi
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	XӘΛ	Hey Oz 'n all
	Oz Linden	Greetings from your friendly neighborhood "open source freak tyrant" :-)
08:03	TriloByte Zanzibar	hehe
	XӘΛ	haha!
	Ashiri Sands	=^_^=
	Tonya Souther	smiles. "Is there a story there, Oz?"
08:04	Oz Linden	(see Prokofy blog post earlier this week)
	Ima Mechanique	ooh, I try not to do that
	Oz Linden	one has to notice when one is the subject
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I make a point to steer clear of proky
	Ashiri Sands	rot's one's brain
	Tonya Souther	avoids Prokofy's blog. She prefers to read her fiction in book form.
08:05	Ima Mechanique	although the breast you have in my viewer might account for the "freak"
	Oz Linden	Let's jump right in.... Ongoing:
	TriloByte Zanzibar	that's true, being singled out in a post would probably make me curious too
		let the tyranny begin :)
	XӘΛ	everyone here is guilty by association
08:06	Oz Linden	gpu table updates are coming along....
		I expect I'll check something in today
08:07	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent. if there's any info you need beyond what you've got, let me know
	Oz Linden	I will, doubtless, be introducing some errors, but on the whole I think it will be much better
		many many thanks to all those who've helped on this
		Windlight....
08:08		making progress (I'm running a viewer with it now)
	Wolfpup	i forgot the meeting was over here
	Oz Linden	but at the moment, all the dialogs for editing settings are lying in pieces on the floor waiting to be reassembled
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah - I'd sent you a nc last weekend with the names of some estate owners who'd be willing to participate
08:09	Oz Linden	as soon as those are put back together and had a round of basic QA, we'lll put out a project viewer
		I got those, and much appreciate it. More are welcome
08:10	TriloByte Zanzibar	ok, I'll check with a couple others if I can catch them
	oobscure	i'm estate manager , is that enough ?
	Oz Linden	I think WL region settings will be a big win... and hope that when we get the code out (probably around the same time we put out a project viewer), that TPVs will pick it up
08:11		yes, estate manager is what you need to set the region settings
	Tonya Souther	I'm EM on my own sim too.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I was meaning to ask you, are single regions helpful too?
	Oz Linden	sure
	XӘΛ	Cool. I'd definitely be looking to help out.
08:12	Oz Linden	Especially anyone who has issues with creating the ambiance they want....
		I'm planning to have fun with these two regions :-)
08:13		but I'll try to make most meeting times not too disruptive
		Filtering media ....
	TriloByte Zanzibar	it does smooth transitions too, doesn't it? it won't be 8:13 setting a, 8:14 blink to setting b
08:14	Oz Linden	I found some documentation (internally) on how to fix the test problem that's been blocking this, and will be moving that doc to the external wiki once I verify by fixing the test that the doc is correct
		Right - between keyframes, the settings segue smoothly from one setting to the next
08:15	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent ,thanks
08:16		possibly related to the media filtering, was there some kind of security issue related to media?
	Oz Linden	one effect of that is that if you want an extended time with stable settings, followed by some substantial change, then you have to put the same setting on two keyframes at either end of the stable period
		but you get 20 keyframes per "daycylcle"
08:17		not a security issue per see.... we found a crash in the old version of the ogg/vorbis libraries and recommended an upgrade
	Cinder Eichel	with libvorbis trilobyte
	XӘΛ	cool. Any thought about scripted control of region wl yet?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ah ok
08:18	Oz Linden	scripted control is not on the roadmap at the moment
	XӘΛ	'k
	Oz Linden	that would, in any event, be server side, not viewer
08:19		restrictions on storing/transferring.... no progress on that (sorry, oobscure)... just because I'm swamped
		vwr-25713
08:20	oobscure	ok, personally i have no hurry about that inventory issues. just a big longstanding inconsistent behaviour but not urgent.
08:22	Oz Linden	Someone has been assigned to that vwr, but it's been moved (incorrectly) so it's become invisible... will track that down
		anyway, there is a cleanup pass planned on display names; not sure when it will happen thought
08:23	TriloByte Zanzibar	that would be server-side though, too, wouldn't it?
	Tonya Souther	what's the cleanup involve, Oz?
	Oz Linden	I do know that someone is compiling a list of issues, so if you have gripes about DN and how it's used somewhere that are not already in jira, now would be a good time
08:24		well, fixing things like the fact that you can't filter/search on real account names in the people panel
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the main thing I'm hearing about is the delay in populating the names list
	Oz Linden	the delay is a server issue.... not sure what the story is on that
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I suspect that's also related to why some larger groups are failing to open consistently lately, they're timing out while waiting for the list to populate
08:25	Oz Linden	that's possible. If you turn on debug level logging, the DN cache becomes pretty chatty about what it's doing
	TriloByte Zanzibar	the only other DN issue I can think of is VWR-24211
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24211 VWR-24211 Display Name should show when using actions (/me) in Group Chat
08:26	Oz Linden	so if you feel like looking into it, let me know and I can find the log config to turn that on
	TriloByte Zanzibar	actions in group chats and p2p
08:28		no need to look it up on my account, my bandwidth is low-ish and I'm kind of waiting to find out more about what's going on with the big picture of group chat
	Oz Linden	I am told that the chat team believes they are making progress, but nothing is deployed yet
08:29		VWR-23121
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23121 VWR-23121 Minimising interface clutter for Viewer 2.0/Snowstorm
	Oz Linden	interesting collection of issues....
	TriloByte Zanzibar	that has some good stuff in there
08:30		personally I'm ok with the sidebar most of the time, but if that could be turned off, it would be huge for a lot of ppl
	Oz Linden	There is a _lot_ of design work going on in that area. Too early for me to be able to discuss conclusions (there aren't any yet)
08:31		("that area" meaning cleaning up the UI)
	Tonya Souther	I hope someone points out to the folks doing the design that screen real estate is the single most expensive resource the viewer can use.
	Oz Linden	I'm hopeful that when we have some new goals settled, that I can get someone from the UX team to come here and present them
	Tonya Souther	So wasting it borders on criminal.
08:32	XӘΛ	*cough*tearoffwindows*cough*
	Oz Linden	yes... trust me... I repeated that point several times when meeting with the UX team lead this week (and he almost always agreed with me)
	Tonya Souther	great!
08:33	Oz Linden	VWR-25714 ....
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25714 VWR-25714 Poor responsiveness of Profile and IM buttons in People search
08:34	Oz Linden	hard to say what that might be about... I'll pass it on to the search team
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'm not experiencing it here
08:35		maybe a 1 second delay between clicking on profile and the profile window being open
		and instantaneous with IM's
08:36	Oz Linden	SVC-6898
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6898 SVC-6898 Switching language in preferences creates new calling cards folders for each language
	oobscure	i think this should have been removed from agenda
	Oz Linden	I believe someone is working on getting the duplicate folders cleaned up from the backend
		yes, I'll remove this for next week
08:37	Cinder Eichel	VWR-25714 is the same issue as VWR-24809
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24809 VWR-24809 Mini-Map Profile Button Not Working The First Time
08:38	Oz Linden	hmmm... had not seen that one....
08:39	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'm not able to reproduce that one either. Perhaps the delay is more an issue of internet connection speed
	Oz Linden	spacenavigator on linux... obviously, no progress :-(
	Cinder Eichel	it could be, it happens a lot for me but my dsl peaks at 3mb/sec
	Jenova Spires	Loading profiles seems to be happening much more quickly, and reliably for me during the last 3 or 4 days or so.
08:40	Oz Linden	that issue is likely to be more about latency and congestion at any given time than about bandwidth
	Cinder Eichel	you'll hear the audio cue that you've opened it, but the window never opens.
	Oz Linden	Is your DSL symettric, Cinder? if not, then the uplink is probably more important than down for that problem
08:41	TriloByte Zanzibar	true, my connection's likely low latency as well as zippy
	Cinder Eichel	no it's adsl, and it performs poorly
		bad coppy from the TNI
		*copper
	Oz Linden	I used to work for a company that made DSL gear... I'm all too familiar with its "issues"
08:42	Cinder Eichel	nods 'well i'm switching to cable soon, so we'll see if it goes away'
		lol
	Oz Linden	VWR-25525
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25525 VWR-25525 Improvements to handling of user group permissions on parcels
08:43	Oz Linden	I discussed this general topic with UX this week, and while we may take on some minor stuff around the edges, group/permissions issues are not likely to be a priority for a while
08:44	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'm not sure if that would be more of a server-side thing (automatic detection if user belongs to the right group), but I like the idea a lot
	Oz Linden	while we agree that there are some annoying problems there, they seem to be ones that most users learn to deal with
	TriloByte Zanzibar	billions of returned prims would vote on the issue if they could
	Cinder Eichel	lol
08:45	Oz Linden	for the quarter or three we're focused on usability issues that are more disruptive
	Tonya Souther	it's not like there aren't enoug of those.
	Oz Linden	like lag in general, chat, etc
	TriloByte Zanzibar	tell that to the newish resident who's trying to furnish their home with the wrong tag on, it's disruptive enough
		true
08:46	Oz Linden	one thing we may do is try to provide better error indications, including advice on how to adjust, but that's still tbd
08:47		storm-1189 ... I think we beat that one to death last week
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1189 STORM-1189 Remove Classic Clouds
	Oz Linden	(need to edit the agenda better)
		vwr-257111
		vwr-25711
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25711 VWR-25711 Display entry permission warnings for inaccessible parcels
08:48	Oz Linden	vwr-25712
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25712 VWR-25712 Display entry permissions warnings for teleports
	Oz Linden	these are the sort of things I meant... some things where we could be more clear about why you can't do what you're trying to do.
08:49		and perhaps what you can do about it
		which exhausts the agenda !
		The floor is open for 10 minutes
	TriloByte Zanzibar	w00t
	Ima Mechanique	storm-959
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-959 STORM-959 LSL multiline comments
08:50	Ima Mechanique	nothing seems to be happening with this
08:51	Oz Linden	since Luminos didn't do anything with it, I've reassigned to you to get it into the process properly, Ima
		thanks
	Ima Mechanique	okay, already have the repo up ;-)
08:52	oobscure	VWR-25655
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25655 VWR-25655 Build button isn't enabled when activating group on land where building is restricted to group members
	XӘΛ	thanx for unhiding EXP-798
	Oz Linden	why am I not surprised?
	Liisa Runo	dont we already have multiline comments?
	Oz Linden	Yes.. that project was not set up to make vwr issues remain visible when moved, but I believe that's been fixed now
	Ima Mechanique	Liisa, it's just the highlighting of them in the editor
08:53	Liisa Runo	ah
	Jenova Spires	I've noticed something lately; don't know if this is the right place or time, but it seems like there's an inter-viewer Ruthing issue lately. Viewer 2 users see each other's avatars okay, but Phoenix users see us as Ruthed, and vice versa.
08:54	Oz Linden	yup
	oobscure	Jenova, that relates to Avatar Physics
	Oz Linden	VWR-25479
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25479 VWR-25479 Avatar physics causing broken shapes on other viewers until they clear cache
	Ima Mechanique	yup, Oz is ruthed to me now. very disturbing with the beard
	Oz Linden	the summary is not quite correct
08:55	Jenova Spires	Yeah, it's resulted in some really funny snapshots around some of my usual hangouts.
	Oz Linden	AP isn't actually the cause - it's really a 1.x bug that AP tickles much more frequently
	Liisa Runo	not only phoenix users. All old clients and all 4rd party clients exept one see v2 users as ruth. == most of the people see v2 users as ruth
	Oz Linden	for example, I'm not using AP on this av
	Liisa Runo	3rd*
08:56	Oz Linden	Phoenix has (or is about to?) put out an update with the fix, as have a number of other TPVs
	Tonya Souther	About to.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	has anybody run into issues with avatars going all alpha as well? I talk to a couple ppl who experience the problem a lot, regardless of viewer they're using
08:57	Ima Mechanique	hehe I have, but it's deliberate
	Liisa Runo	i have seen it couple times, very rarely, im using snowglobe
	TriloByte Zanzibar	they say it persists even after cache clearing or running the character test
08:58		I've never experienced it myself (other than when deliberately alpha)
08:59	Jenova Spires	I've noticed the "No Feet" alpha seems to very briefly make the bottom half of my avatar invisible, but only when first putting it on, or changing into an outfit that includes it.
	Oz Linden	there is a bug in the TPV breast physics that can cause that (we had a version of the bug in some development versions of our AP too, but it's fixed)
	Tonya Souther	Our current thinking, BTW, is that we'll go ahead and include full AP in Phoenix, and remove the existing code a tthe same time.
09:00	Oz Linden	if you do, you'll switch directly from being affected by the old bug to triggering it in other 1.x viewers :-)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	now if only you'd add full multi-wearables support
		:)
	Tonya Souther	We know that.
		So we're also including a switch to turn sending the extra AvatarAppearance parameters off.
	Oz Linden	on the other hand, you'll also solve the problem for a very large population, so thank you
09:01	Tonya Souther	Including full AP is still a bit up in the air, but we do want to do that.
	Oz Linden	you've already got it in Firestorm though, right?
	Tonya Souther	Yes.
09:02		And the switch to disable sending parms, too.
	Oz Linden	I've got to get ready for my scrum standup (ie ... finish something)
		Thanks for coming, everyone
	Cinder Eichel	tonya, siana gearz has ported it to her viewer as well if you want to look at singularity on github.
	oobscure	thanks oz, bye
	TriloByte Zanzibar	please also consider multi-wearables (layers specifically) to phoenix, on behalf of your userbase
	Tonya Souther	That's where we got it for Phoenix.
	XӘΛ	thanks Oz
	Ima Mechanique	tc Oz