Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-06-03

08:01	Wolfpup	hey Oz
08:02	Oz Linden	Hi everyone !
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	Ashiri Sands	Hi
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
08:03		So... let's jump right in.... HEADLINE ITEM: We're releasing a very early version Project Viewer for Windlight Region Settings _today_
	draconis.neurocam	wow
08:04	Ann Otoole	(i hope it doesn't have the crash on startup thing too)
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight_Region_Settings_Project_ViewerThere's a wiki page on it now, which has the documentation, including caveats about what is known not to work:
	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent!
08:05	Oz Linden	The only thing that page is missing right this minute is the links to the viewer :-(
	Jonathan	it is compiling now?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	i see links - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Windlight_Region_Settings_Project_Viewer
08:06		nvm, links have bogus addresses hehe
	Oz Linden	There are a couple things that I need to confirm have been done in the viewer version manager before I post the links
	Jonathan	yeah, to example.com/TBD
	Oz Linden	No... the viewer is built (I'm running it now)
		yeah... tricky, huh ? :-)
08:07	TriloByte Zanzibar	Oz, what about the folks who were going to be making some presets?
		you had mentioned before that the project viewer would be read-only
	Oz Linden	There are some included, including a couple by Torley
08:08	Jonathan	We know what colors torley likes :)
	Haravikk	Watermelon land =)
	Oz Linden	In this version, you can edit day cycles that use the pre-defined sky presets, but you can't create new sky or water presets yet
		Actually, for Torley, it's pretty restrained
08:09	Jonathan	So a region owner will be able to save one of these presets to her region for all to see?
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	sorry I'm late but I couldn't use the web slurl to get to here with the current snowstorm daily... not tested thoroughly but relogged to regular release
	Oz Linden	yes, but you'll have to be running this viewer to see them
	Marianne McCann	(Sorry Im late, too)
		Will you be able to set a day cycle at all, or just a single preset?
08:10	Oz Linden	A full day cycle - up to 20 changes
		or a fixed sky
	Marianne McCann	Excellent
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	can't wait
08:11	Jonathan	Is this viewer based on a fairly recent version of v-d?
	Oz Linden	There is a "Windlight Region Testers" group that I'd like people to join if they are testing it
		it's open, so I think you should be able to find and join it
		or I can send invites if that is easier
		It's a very very recent version
08:12	TriloByte Zanzibar	yep, it's open
	Eddi	i,m interested :)
	Oz Linden	pretty close to the beta that will be out today
	TriloByte Zanzibar	and nice, just realized the latest dev build has the new search
	Marianne McCann	will join up
	Oz Linden	Yes, it does, as does that new beta (2.7.1)
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	ok, so if I'm play with this, my residents won't see anything different unless they volunteer to use the client too, right?
08:13	Oz Linden	correct, Charlene
	Ann Otoole	so is this test for region owners/estate managers only or are non managers needed for testing regions?
	Eddi	oz its the beta of the last weeks?
	Oz Linden	Well, someone has to actually look at the settings, Ann ... so anyone
	Ann Otoole	ok
	TriloByte Zanzibar	it's for anyone who wants to see/experience the windlight presets as well
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	oh thank goodness, Trilobyte, the separate search viewer has beeen the crashiest version of the viewer I've used in ages
	Haravikk	Are test regions on the beta grid or available on the main-grid?
	Oz Linden	but what we're really interested in at the moment is whether the workflow for changing settings makes sense
	TriloByte Zanzibar	main grid, since the servers already have the code
08:14	Oz Linden	this will work in any main grid region (with the caveats documented on that page)
08:15		we've uncovered a couple of minor server issues during testing, which are fixed in sim versions that have not yet deployed
	Jonathan	Oz, would you list the regions in the wiki where you have established changes?
	Oz Linden	they'll make their way out to the grid in due course
		this one and Hippo Hollow next door
		there's a Group Notice about those in that group
08:16		It's likely that Tiggs will be running around doing others :-)
	Haravikk	Seems simple enough, you just create a preset in the World menu like you always would, then just "import" it your region in region settings?
	Oz Linden	in the Region/Estate floater Environment tab, correct
08:17	Haravikk	Is there a button for opening the environment editor from the region/environment tab?
	Oz Linden	we've reorganized the Region/Estate floater
	TriloByte Zanzibar	it might make sense to encourage folks who tweet to use an #slwindlight hashtag? perhaps share links to regions with settings or something?
	Oz Linden	there isn't right now... it's something we're thinking about, though
		I'd rather not use twitter to get feedback
08:18	TriloByte Zanzibar	not for feedback, but to encourage residents to use for discovery
	Oz Linden	I won't tell people not to tweet, but I've asked people to use Group Notices to advertise regions to see
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ok
	Oz Linden	Because this version is still pretty limited, I don't want to make a big deal of it yet
		we don't need many users to find out what we need right now
08:19	Jonathan	I just added a Test Regions to the wiki; that might be a better place than (or in addition to) a group notice, as those do not persist and can be missed, etc
	Oz Linden	I'll make a louder announcement when we have the new sky and water editors working
		good idea, Jonathan... thank you
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good idea
08:20	Jonathan	Thanks to Boroondas I have become more of a wiki writer
	Oz Linden	yeah... you're a menace, JY :-)
08:22		exuse me for just a moment....
08:23	Marianne McCann	hums some "on hold" music
	TriloByte Zanzibar	hehe
08:25	Oz Linden	ok ... I'm back ... thank you
	Ann Otoole	there's an idea. make the welcome areas force radio on and play muzak elevator music
	Oz Linden	I was checking on the holdup for the links
		will have them for you before we're done here !
	Marianne McCann	Tried it. Doesn't seem to make a difference, Ann
08:26		grins
	Jonathan	pushed Ship It! button 3 times while waiting
	Oz Linden	So... let's try to discuss other things
		SH-1618
08:27	TriloByte Zanzibar	you can skip the first item on the list, that's from last week and is already in viewer-dev
	Oz Linden	I _think_ that is fixed in the 2.7.1 beta too
		which should also appear today, I believe
	TriloByte Zanzibar	it hadn't been in any of the 2.7.1 dev snapshots
	Oz Linden	(the same person is doing both, and I just asked her to do mine first :-)
08:28		please let me know when you can test it, TriloByte
	TriloByte Zanzibar	will do
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	aren't we up to 2.72?
	Oz Linden	not in the beta channel
	TriloByte Zanzibar	on the development builds, yes
	Oz Linden	2.6.9 is the current release channel,
08:29		the beta channel now is 2.7.0 and about to be 2.7.1
		and development is 2.7.2
08:30		keeping these straight in my head is a running challenge :-)
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	gotcha, sorry, I run dev always
	Oz Linden	that's great - love to hear that we've got people running our bleeding edge !
08:31	draconis.neurocam	i do the same
	Oz Linden	(there are a few hundred of you)
08:32	draconis.neurocam	(have become quite used to going over all the debug settings as a side effect)
08:33	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	except of course, right this minute, cause I couldn't accept a slurl from web on 231706
	draconis.neurocam	works fine here on 231706
	Oz Linden	Sorry for the pause... I'm getting lots of side-pings
08:34	TriloByte Zanzibar	it's the link on the page that's quirky, has some extraneous stuff on the end of if I think
	Oz Linden	That one was even better news, but I can't tell you what it is until next week (tease) !
	draconis.neurocam	haha
	Marianne McCann	Pfffft!!!!
	Oz Linden	LOL
08:35	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	he's giving me incentive to wake up early enough to attend regularly lol
	Jonathan	Is next week=Monday or ?
	Wolfpup	Oz talking about the viewer numbers i finaly fugured out how to datestamp my nightly build
	Oz Linden	I don't know exactly when ....
08:36		oh... that's cool, WP
		back to our agenda....
08:37		VWR-25943
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25943 VWR-25943 [TRUNCATION - SHORTEN OPTION] Mundo > Foto > VISTA PREVIA DE LA FOTO. "Calidad de la imag" should be "Calidad de la imagen"
	Oz Linden	mistyped
		VWR-25942
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25942 VWR-25942 Include ability to format chat/IM's
08:38	Oz Linden	I like that idea, Haravikk
	Haravikk	I wasn't sure if there had been a similar issue already, but I searched for everything I could think of before posting, it'd be nice particularly for scripts to be able to put bold in chat to highlight things
	Jonathan	Is there a library that could be used to parse for these control sequences?
	Haravikk	But I could see users using it too, not sure how hard it is to add, or if there are any standard libraries to do it?
08:39	TriloByte Zanzibar	that would also work out nicely with adding help menu info for local/IM/group chat
	Marianne McCann	Agreed. Adds a bit of nuance, too, in chat. both for Educators and RPers.
	Jonathan	I looked at the code that parses slurl -- it is lengthy
	Oz Linden	Well, the next argument is what constitutes a "standard" for this kind of lightweight markup
	Haravikk	I believe the markup that the JIRA at least partially implements is called Textile
08:40		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textile_(markup_language)
	Oz Linden	I suspect pretty strongly that some already-much-needed refactoring would need to happen
	Haravikk	I doubt we'd need lists and things, but bold, italitc etc. would be great
	Oz Linden	yes, if it was limited enough it probably would not be too difficult
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	I'm not much to go by, but I'm used to *text* making 'text' bold, I never learned the othrs
	Jonathan	If there was a library that would return start location and length of a parsed string doing this would not be so hard
08:41	TriloByte Zanzibar	I agree, bold/italic/underline would be awesome
	Haravikk	I think regular expressions could handle this dead easily if a library doesn't already exist
	Oz Linden	I'd be willing to bet that there's a good lib out there somewhere
	Jonathan	The library would have to handle missing terminators and nested ones
	Oz Linden	but it's not a hard problem anyway
08:42		I'll ask for wider review internally... there's a fair amount of attention being paid to chat now (although mostly on the infrastructure at the moment), so this is not far off what we're already doing
	Haravikk	Ah, links on the wiki page point to implementations for things like PHP and Java
	Jonathan	I tried to search for a library this morning but did not have any luck
08:43	draconis.neurocam	3p-pcre wouldnt do the trick?
	Jonathan	I heard that phoenix has user-customizable settings that will highlight strings you say are of interest
	draconis.neurocam	thats already in
08:44	Oz Linden	issue Ack 'ed and query sent internally
	Haravikk	Hmm, I think Phoenix does user names and stuff? Though I wonder how it's faring with display names!
		But if they've rejigged the chat code it could be a good start?
08:45	Oz Linden	which finishes off our list, so we can just kick ideas around until I get the ok to post links :-)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	vwr-25896
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25896 VWR-25896 [Regression] Bulk uploads do not adhere to default permissions
	TriloByte Zanzibar	refresh your page, oz ;-)
08:46	Haravikk	So does the windlight for regions mean we're a step closer to sharing windlight settings as assets, or is that completely separate?
	Oz Linden	Ta Da!
		It's separate, Haravikk, but something we'd very much like to do
08:47		At the moment, the preset definitions are stored locally on your system (under user preferences)
		and the values copied to the region
08:48		that actually causes some bother in the implementation that would go away if they were assets
	Jonathan	Oz's TaDa means the links are published for the WL viewer
	TriloByte Zanzibar	downloading now :)
	Haravikk	Right, was just hoping maybe the regions were storing them as an asset or such so it'd be dead easy to extend, oh well, regions are what the need the feature the most!
	Eddi	its not todo? :)
	Oz Linden	but it would have taken much longer to fix both at the same time
		so we decided that we'd try to get the region settings working well enough to set and see, and then take on sharing and so on as a follow-up
08:49		well, Eddi ... it's a todo without a date
	Eddi	Hhehe
08:51	Haravikk	Still great news though, I know some sim-owners that are going to be very happy, just wish I could afford one, no chance of a lifetime freebie island for testing purposes? ^^
	Oz Linden	The way it (and everything else) works is that when it comes time to decide what's next, that competes with everything else
08:52		I'll send out some invites as soon as we're done here to the estate owners who had expressed an interest
	Ann Otoole	shareable windlight setting assets would add to the economy. make it easy to deliver etc. maybe.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	before things wrap up, oz, what about bulk upload permissions?
	Ann Otoole	making a new set is to pull teeth with pliers
	Oz Linden	Yes ... making them economic items is an argument I will not neglect when that priority discussion takes place :-)
08:53		Bulk upload permissions... that came up in a meeting just the other day and someone is supposed to be working on it
		I don't know exactly who... but will try to keep an eye on it.
	Eddi	hey wolf
08:54	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent.. unfortunately it's now broken in official, beta, and dev
	Jonathan	New topic: The future of automatic chat translation
	Eddi	techwolf*
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ooh, good one
	draconis.neurocam	i think seraph fixed that in a recent mesh commit
	Oz Linden	Unless someone can suggest a solution to replace Google, I think the future is that we'll just strip it out shortly
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	this may be out in jira jira land, but does anyone get seriously annoyed that when some object (like a subscribo) sends a notecard, landmark or whatever, it closes the chat window you're currently typing in?
08:55	TriloByte Zanzibar	for me they don't close the window, they pop up above the window
	Techwolf Lupindo	What's wrong with google?
	Oz Linden	is there a jira issue that describes the specific scenario Charlene ?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	it's when i try to click on them that the window closes
	draconis.neurocam	they are shutting down the translation api tech
08:56	Oz Linden	Google is shutting down the translation service
	Haravikk	Any reason why?
	Wolfpup	Tech Google is going to be closeing the api @ the end of the year
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	I don't know, its just something that has really begun to irritate me, I'll take a look or write it up formally.
	Marianne McCann	Ah thanks, Charlene. Reminded me of a bug I hit in 2.7.0 the other day, with group management closing IMs, and one fatal one that removed me from that, local chat, and movement.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	most likely because as it was set up, they're not making any money on advertising
	Oz Linden	thanks, Charlene... be very specific, because there are lots of variants
	Marianne McCann	Need to comb the JIRA for it yet m'self.
08:57	Techwolf Lupindo	I sujest a debug setting that turns it off and hides it from the UI. So when another service comes up, don't have to re-patch in the entire code again.
	Wolfpup	Oz they are not shuting it down just closeing access to the api ans moveing to more site based
	Oz Linden	there's an issue on the Group thing already
		it's part of why I was late, in fact
	Marianne McCann	I figured. I've just been too busy to find it.
	Oz Linden	for our purposes, they are shutting it down
	Techwolf Lupindo	Or a #if CHAT_TRANSLATE instad of stripping it out.
08:58	Oz Linden	well, that sort of code discussion isn't really in scope here
	Wolfpup	there was one sugestion about maybe LL 'leasing the rites to use the api in the dev list
	Haravikk	Hmm, are there any translation dictionaries that can be downloaded into the viewer and the translation performed there?
08:59	Oz Linden	So... go download the Project Viewer, come back and see the pretty world
		I have no idea, Haravikk, but I strongly doubt it
	Jonathan	I am running it now
		FBO was on in graphics, I had to disable that
		what should the sky look like?
09:00	Oz Linden	Purple, at the moment :-)
	Marianne McCann	Have fun, all!
	Jonathan	blue to me
		will try other region
09:01	Eddi	Oz, can you take my name?? for the test pls?
	Wolfpup	brb
	Oz Linden	make sure that you're set to display the region settings
09:02	Eddi	ty :)
	Jonathan	Use region settings is not the default Oz
09:03		Wiki says it is
		I think you got the xml file from a dev
		ooo, purple
		very nice
	Haravikk	Does Bing Translate have an API?
	Jonathan	This will be a big hit
09:04	Oz Linden	no idea, Haravikk
	Charlene Trudeau - SkyBeam	no!!!! no bing! omg no MS lol
	Haravikk	Only online alternative I've found so far, it looks like it has AJAX and HTTP API's
09:05	Jonathan	I was happy to see translator HUDs go away
09:07	Ann Otoole	it worketh
09:08	Haravikk	Anyways, I should be off, see you next week, if I remember the day change at least!
09:09	Oz Linden	thanks for coming
		just finished sending out some more tester invites
	TriloByte Zanzibar	thanks oz