AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18

[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Still the same Sai. Your cloud appeared, then nothing
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: But if Zha sees you, it must be me
[9:36] Zha Ewry: try
[9:36] Morgaine Dinova: relogging
[9:36] Zha Ewry: changing cgroup tags
[9:36] Zha Ewry: and dont' ask me why
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Groupie now
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: that help?
[9:37] Zha Ewry: And you showed up
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: WOW
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: only in America...
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: OK, explain ... this'll be good :-)))
[9:37] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm
[9:37] Zha Ewry: I can't, but it does often work
[9:37] SignpostMarv Martin: should the tag not say "AWGroupie", not Groupy ?
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: ask Zha
[9:38] Zha Ewry shrugs
[9:38] Zha Ewry: its all idiom
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, change your tag as a test pls
[9:38] Rex Cronon is Online
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: is the signular of groupies groupie?
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: Nope, no change. Relogging
[9:38] SignpostMarv Martin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupie
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova is Offline
[9:38] Zha Ewry: So, I've seen this discussion a bit
[9:39] Zha Ewry: About import and export
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: just to clarify,
[9:39] Flight Band: All Go
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova is Online
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: I want to keep well away from the topic of saving Agni/LL region backups and importing them to OpenSim
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: that gets into the realm of inter-grid inventory transfer
[9:39] Zha Ewry n ods
[9:39] Zha Ewry: it does, given you'll have a pile of refs to things which only exist on the Linden Asset Servers
[9:40] Fleep Tuque is Offline
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, you've appeared Sai. So my client was messed up. Idd, seeing as I'd only just logged in
[9:40] Zha Ewry: Mind you, long term, its a totally fair issue, to me
[9:40] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex
[9:40] SignpostMarv Martin: the ability to have OpenSim region archives of the default regions available for selction in the land store would be handy,
[9:40] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:41] SignpostMarv Martin: and the ability to submit an OpenSim archive- either manuallly installed or automatically processed- for loading on an LL region would be very beneficial
[9:41] SignpostMarv Martin: would cut down users' costs,
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: an essential packet about me was missed, I guess
[9:41] SignpostMarv Martin: as they could develop content away from Agni,
[9:41] Zha Ewry nods
[9:41] SignpostMarv Martin: spending several months developing content on a low-performance OpenSim grid,
[9:41] Zha Ewry: The import path, and the ability to build offline, would be very useful, I would think
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: so groupo tag change forces refresh of that bit of info.
[9:42] SignpostMarv Martin: then load it when it's almost ready for launch
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: I think the region import/export is going to be extremely important. People are going to be buying or creating sims a lot and want fast recreation of environments. And buyers are going to want instant package deals. Importing will become de rigeur, I expect.
[9:42] Zha Ewry: I'm inclined to agree, Morgaine
[9:42] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm not sure if the remote admin commands support the backup/restore commands in OpenSim,
[9:42] SignpostMarv Martin: but if they do,
[9:43] SignpostMarv Martin: then a web-based interface to OpenSim has a distinct advantage of LL's land store
[9:43] Morgaine Dinova: So, what are the big issues to consider on the import/export/interop front?
[9:44] Zha Ewry: I suspect two things
[9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Other than perms, not too interested in that :-)
[9:44] SignpostMarv Martin: well, LL would probably lose a bit of money in the short term,
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Linden keeps the whole mess in the simstate
[9:44] SignpostMarv Martin: given that the clients wouldn't be having the sims for as long
[9:44] Zha Ewry: and OpenSim, keeps it in several placed, but can export it cleanly, in several forms
[9:44] Zha Ewry shrugs
[9:45] Zha Ewry: That ought to be a nit, SP, given that development, is a small portion of using, but it is a point
[9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Well LL's going down the tubes anyway because they've coupled their income to acreage, but that's another story :-)
[9:45] Laurent Bechir is Online
[9:45] SignpostMarv Martin: however,
[9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I assume LL can decouple thevarious things within the simstate though
[9:45] SignpostMarv Martin: to counter balance the short-term lack of income they'd lose out on,
[9:46] SignpostMarv Martin: people would be more likely to do short-term rentals of full sims,
[9:46] APinkSwan Beauchamp is Online
[9:46] Jonit Ivory is Online
[9:46] Zha Ewry chuckles
[9:46] SignpostMarv Martin: if they don't have to pay for a LL region in order to develop content
[9:46] Zha Ewry: I keep hearing stories abour the code, but I would agree
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: So the big issues to consider, are?
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: that will *never* happen for so many reasons. the first on the list being that the opensim region archive format is completely arbitrary
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: re: this discussion
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: It doesn't have to be arbitrary
[9:48] Neosome Anatine is Online
[9:48] Jonit Ivory is Offline
[9:48] SignpostMarv Martin: jhurliman: you think LL would want to have some input on a more concrete, interoperable region archive format ?
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: And in addition to not needing to be arbitrary, even if it *IS* arbitrary, import into SL could be via a translater, so it doesn't matter if it's arbitrary
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Presumably the format is self-identifying so it's easy to translate. And if it's not self-identifying, it can be made to be.
[9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: i think LL is unwilling to commit to anything at this point as far as real standards go, but you should ask them
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: lkalif: and making import into sl using libomv is trivial
[9:51] Laurent Bechir is Offline
[9:51] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed, they only do that which circumstances force them to do, it seems. And this is one such case, because if OpenSim can be easily reloaded and SL sims can't, they're in trouble.
[9:52] SignpostMarv Martin: libomv is a different approach than using the region archive format
[9:52] Zha Ewry: I think we need to seperate out the policitcal from the technical, tho, both matter, clearly
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Yes
[9:52] Zha Ewry: and client side updload, while useful, is also very seperable
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: In fact, let's ignore the political altogether. :-) What are the technical issues?
[9:53] SignpostMarv Martin: the archive format isn't fixed
[9:53] SignpostMarv Martin: and I don't believe its standardised
[9:53] Rex Cronon: something like zip
[9:53] SignpostMarv Martin: thus making LL's glacial development & QA process a pain
[9:53] Morgaine Dinova: You mean different Opensim grids use different formats?
[9:53] SignpostMarv Martin: oh yeah, it uses standard compression formats, but I'm referring to the contents of thefile
[9:54] SignpostMarv Martin: I mean it's not an ISO/RFC thingy :-P
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Not talking about compression
[9:54] Al Supercharge accepted your inventory offer.
[9:54] SignpostMarv Martin: as jhurliman said earlier,
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: why is all this energy being spent trying to push a boulder uphill? why not work on improving the opensim region archive format and standardizing it?
[10:54am] lkalif: i don't see LL allowing region exports ever for political reasons, and there is no need to argue technical ones, its simply not going to happen
[9:54] SignpostMarv Martin: the format is arbitrarry
[9:54] Dizzy Banjo is Online
[9:55] SignpostMarv Martin: lkalif: we're keeping well away from the topic of LL supporting export of LL Regions to OpenSim format
[9:55] SignpostMarv Martin: we're talking about LL supporting import
[9:55] Rex Cronon: when u say "region archive" u mean every object and script in a sim, and the terrain too?
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: if the same group of people trying to pressure LL into doing something they don't want to do got together and formed a standards committee for region archival, there would probably be an RFC ready to go in a few weeks
[9:56] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: I cloned a sim with it, if thats what you mean
[9:56] Morgaine Dinova: I think jhurliman's suggestion of improving the OpenSim archive format and standardising it (for all OpenSims) is a good one. LL can follow if they wish ... their call. But at least OpenSim will have a good mechanism.
[9:56] SignpostMarv Martin: export, create new region, switch to new region, restore from previous archive
[9:56] Rex Cronon: but , u can't copy scripts. can u?
[9:57] SignpostMarv Martin: it can, i think
[9:57] SignpostMarv Martin: but that would be the point
[9:57] Rex Cronon: not in opensim, but here on the main grid
[9:58] SignpostMarv Martin: you'd be wanting to import a project developed away from Agni ready for use
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Well, SL is one horse that can't be forced to drink
[9:58] SignpostMarv Martin: also, Rex- to repeat, we're keeping away from the topic of exporting from Agni to OpenSim, as that's in the realm of the touch "inter-grid inventory transfer"
[9:58] SignpostMarv Martin: touchy*
[9:59] Geo Meek is Offline
[9:59] Freemason Magic is Online
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: But I'd guess that if region import proves popular and powerful in OpenSim (and especially if OpenSim grids start really competing commercially), then LL will start looking at the idea.
[10:00] SignpostMarv Martin: and yes, I believe starting with getting the OpenSim archive format standardised would be the best place to start with
[10:00] Rex Cronon is Offline
[10:01] Geo Meek is Online
[10:01] Vektor Linden is Offline
[10:02] And Clawtooth accepted your inventory offer.
[10:02] SignpostMarv Martin: so thats step one on the roadmap
[10:02] SignpostMarv Martin: obviously we'd get LL in on that process somewhere,
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Make it self-descriptive and half the problems disappear. Or if it's binary and not self-descriptive at all, then at least build an "interop-export" tool alongside the system build, to that it picks up the right format just by being in sync.
[10:02] SignpostMarv Martin: what would the next step towards LL support of the format be ?
[10:02] SignpostMarv Martin goes and looks at the region archive file
[10:02] Al Supercharge: Sorry I cant stay _I'm here to impart a message that I'm afraid you may not want to hear.
[10:02] Squirrel Wood is Online
[10:03] Al Supercharge: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3007
[10:03] SignpostMarv Martin: ah cool, you can fit the region archive of the sim I cloned on a floppy disk :-P
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Both And Clawtooth and Al Supercharge are invisible to me
[10:03] SignpostMarv Martin: okay,
[10:03] SignpostMarv Martin: what I'm seeing here in the archive structure is this:
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Al, MOrgaine has been arguing with LL about scalbility for years now
[10:04] Zha Ewry: FWIW, that Jira, is ahmm. Unique
[10:04] SignpostMarv Martin: 3 folders and an XML file in the root
[10:04] SignpostMarv Martin: archive.xml (the file in the root directory of the arhcive) is just this:
[10:04] SignpostMarv Martin: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?>

[10:04] SignpostMarv Martin: ./assets/ contains JPEG2000 files,
[10:04] SignpostMarv Martin: ./objects/ contains XML files,
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: no need for binary, XML+compression works just as well
[10:05] SignpostMarv Martin: and ./terrains/ contains an r32 format of the terrain
[10:05] Goldie Katsu is Online
[10:05] Rex Cronon is Online
[10:05] Canon Dench is Offline
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Heh, I'm pretty much stopped arguing with LL about scalability, you may have noticed. :-) I regard them as pretty much a dead loss now. Can't make them drink. :-) Looks like it'll be up to 3rd parties to make scalable sims.
[10:06] SignpostMarv Martin: so the archive format structure seems very simple
[10:06] Rex Cronon: crashed:(
[10:06] Thoys Pan is Offline
[10:07] SignpostMarv Martin: ah yes,
[10:07] SignpostMarv Martin: the LSL scripts in some of the objects are in ./assets/ as well
[10:07] SignpostMarv Martin: in plain text
[10:09] SignpostMarv Martin pokes people for the second step in the ideal roadmap towards LL adoption of the OpenSim region archive format for imports only
[10:09] Rex Cronon: ?
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: I'm still interested in technical issues that may be a barrier to archive interop
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: I can't believe there are none :-)))
[10:10] SignpostMarv Martin: lol
[10:10] SignpostMarv Martin: scripts are sent plain text and compiled on the server now, yes ?
[10:10] Rex Cronon: interoperativity between what?
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Between one archive exporter and one importer
[10:11] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: for example, if the OpenSim was some convoluted binary dump, interop would be difficult
[10:11] SignpostMarv Martin: ^think about how complex it was for people to reverse-engineer MSOffice support into OpenOffice.org
[10:11] Rex Cronon: no, it wouldn't. in opensim had a clear description of the file format:)
[10:12] SignpostMarv Martin: however, it appears that the OpenSim region archive format is ridiculously simple.
[10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Marv, from what you can see, is the archive format independent of particular databases used in asset servers?
[10:12] Rex Cronon: if open...
[10:12] joao Mastroianni is Offline
[10:12] Rissa Maidstone is Online
[10:12] SignpostMarv Martin: 3 directories for each type of data (objects, assets, terrain), and an XML file that defines what version of the archive format is in use
[10:13] SignpostMarv Martin: Morgaine, yes
[10:13] SignpostMarv Martin: the assets directory seems pure assets
[10:13] Rex Cronon: what other assets are besides objects?
[10:13] SignpostMarv Martin: objects != assets
[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Are objects just prims, and everything else is an asset, terrain excluded?
[10:14] Rex Cronon: what r u talkign about? an object is an asset
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: OK, my client is well stuffed. Goldie's just arrived and she's invisible to me too
[10:14] SignpostMarv Martin: sounds, textures, animations, scripts, gestures, clothing, etc.
[10:14] SignpostMarv Martin: these are assets
[10:15] SignpostMarv Martin: ^according to the OS format
[10:15] SignpostMarv Martin: the LSL scripts are in plain text,
[10:15] Rex Cronon: and all these "assets" reside in object that is itself an asset:)
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: Marv says it's split into {objects,assets,terrain} .... so at least from the archive's perspective, objects aren't assets.
[10:16] SignpostMarv Martin pastes one of the object XML files into a notecard
[10:16] Rex Cronon: and btw, clothig is not part of the assets stored in a sim
[10:16] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: it can go in an object tho
[10:17] Rex Cronon: ok. i thought u meant that avatars and everything they have on get copied too
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: I thought the only assets stored in the sim database are the ***temporary*** ones needed for baking, nothing else. And those don't need to be archived.
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Ta Marv
[10:18] SignpostMarv Martin: thats a single prim,I think
[10:18] Rex Cronon: thanks
[10:18] SignpostMarv Martin: a book case I made shows as 40K :-P
[10:18] comet Morigi is Online
[10:19] SignpostMarv Martin gave you Primitive_105-128-250__f10cc0f9-4166-403e-82a6-6ed76f443e51.xml.
[10:19] Rex Cronon: curious. how did u get this file?
[10:19] And Clawtooth: this is xml for... one prim?
[10:19] SignpostMarv Martin: possibly
[10:19] SignpostMarv Martin: it might be for a very basic object
[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Buh, no xml pretty-printer on this box
[10:19] SignpostMarv Martin: I just opened up one of the XML files with the lowest file size from the archive of the sim I cloned
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn wonders if that is based on the objectupdate packet format
[10:20] SignpostMarv Martin didn't want to take a sim-sized build into inventory in order to test a modification, so he just cloned the entire region instead :-P
[10:21] And Clawtooth: yeah. we need good text editor built into browser.
[10:21] SignpostMarv Martin: ah
[10:21] SignpostMarv Martin: for geekery,
[10:21] SignpostMarv Martin: open the in-world browser and try data:application/xml,
[10:21] Tess Linden is Online
[10:21] SignpostMarv Martin: then paste the contents of the notecard
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: It would have made sense for Opensim to have reused an existing serializer, aye, so it prolly is.
[10:21] SignpostMarv Martin: not sure if it'd get cut off :-P
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Morgaine, all the stuff that's rezzed on t asim, is on the sim not in an asset store
[10:23] Zha Ewry: The simstates are stored on off box stores, but, not as seperable assets items
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Mind you, all the textures, are reffed via UID
[10:23] SignpostMarv Martin: i think that might be an issue for OS import
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, looks like the ObjectUpdate packet, which can refer to multiple objects, BTW
[10:24] SignpostMarv Martin: conflicting asset UUIDs
[10:24] SignpostMarv Martin: the importer would likely have to check the file hash of an existing asset against the one in the archive,
[10:24] SignpostMarv Martin: and if it differs,
[10:24] SignpostMarv Martin: replace all references in the archive to the UUID of a freshly created asset
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Hooray, we have a candidate for "tech issue": conflicting UUIDs on import
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: :P
[10:25] joao Mastroianni is Online
[10:25] McCabe Maxsted is Online
[10:25] SignpostMarv Martin: either that, or just wastefully create and replace everything
[10:25] Rex Cronon: u could manually edit the uuid:)
[10:25] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: no you couldn't
[10:25] SignpostMarv Martin: the process should be automated
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: those texture UUID wold refer to the asset server
[10:25] SignpostMarv Martin: and a full (Agni compatible) sim can support up to 15k objects
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: cause texture UUIDs don't change on rez, right?
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: I nominate Rex to do all the manual editting on imports .... until he recants ;-))))
[10:26] SignpostMarv Martin: so thats a maximum of 15k XML files to be parsed
[10:26] Rex Cronon: no kidding. is a text file. what is to stop anybody from opening it up in a text editor and make changes:)
[10:26] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex, a simple bookcase consists of 41639 characters of XML blurbs
[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Signpost, think linked objects are kept in one packet for update so they'd be in one xml file as well
[10:27] SignpostMarv Martin: ^Sai, that is the case- the bookcases are linked objects, in individual files
[10:27] Rex Cronon: u don't need to do it manually. is not that hard to make a simple program that looks for a specific field in every file and modifies it accordingly:)
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: interesting. Understanding why llSetText can be such an expensive operation in a sim
[10:28] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm
[10:28] SignpostMarv Martin: <TextureEntry>o27vEhSFE6ZWx+m0hdToagAAAAB/AAAAAAAAAAAAQQAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAA==</TextureEntry>
[10:28] SignpostMarv Martin: whut is that blurb
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure, to be honest, its just a variable length data var in the packet
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe it's a base64 version of a brainF*** program.
[10:29] Zha Ewry: /'me cringes
[10:29] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: you're talking about an XML parser that would have to navigate the DOM tree of 15k files for 120k maximum possible textures
[10:29] SignpostMarv Martin: ^worst case scenario
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Is that worst case SP? How many faces can a prim have?
[10:29] SignpostMarv Martin: 8, i think
[10:29] SignpostMarv Martin: http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=side
[10:29] Zha Ewry: plus a scl;pt map
[10:29] Rex Cronon: i think max nr of faces is 10
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: 2-byte long variable length object
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ObjectUpdate
[10:30] SignpostMarv Martin: 8x 15k = 120k
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: only 8? Thought lots more than that....
[10:30] SignpostMarv Martin: we are of course ignoring the issue that OpenSim supports up to 45k prims
[10:31] SignpostMarv Martin: though thats simple enough to detect
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Actuallu, SP, OpenSim, suports, an arbitrary number
[10:31] SignpostMarv Martin: regardless,
[10:31] Zha Ewry: the 45K is not based on any technical numebr I've seen in the code
[10:31] SignpostMarv Martin: it supports more than Agni
[10:31] SignpostMarv Martin: so that's technical barrier number 2
[10:31] Morgaine Dinova: One thing that would make import/export fall apart would be any departure from LL's definition of prims. "Improving" SL's builtins should be totally off limits.
[10:31] McCabe Maxsted is Offline
[10:31] SignpostMarv Martin: "an importer would need to parse the entire archive to count the number of prims in use before attempting to load the archive into sim state"
[10:32] Rissa Maidstone is Offline
[10:32] SignpostMarv Martin: oh yes, thats another thing- some OS instances support non-LL primitives, I believe
[10:32] SignpostMarv Martin: RX, yes ?
[10:32] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[10:33] 57 Miles is Online
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: OGP will be looking at a prim extension mechanism, so I guess that problem will be tackled eventually.
[10:33] SignpostMarv Martin: anyone familiar enough with XML parsers to know how fast the worst-case scenario of 120k replacement operations would take ?
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think it matters ... the bottleneck is always going to be the import, since the target sim has to create database entries for each item in the file.
[10:34] Rex Cronon: u don't actually need to parse every file, there might be some other quick ways to make changes to an xml file:)
[10:35] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: the safest way to parse an XML file is to use an XML parser
[10:35] 57 Miles is Offline
[10:36] SignpostMarv Martin: regex/string replacement is one option, but whose to say that a valid region archive couldn't be generated that has whitespace & comments in that would foul up the regex/string replacement operation ?
[10:36] SignpostMarv Martin: and yes, you would need to parse every file anyway,
[10:36] SignpostMarv Martin: in order to know what to put into the sim state and to verify that the sim archive doesn't contain too many prims for the region to handle
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Regex-processing of XML doesn't even qualify as a hack ... it's beneath contempt ;-)
[10:37] Sidewinder Linden is Online
[10:37] SignpostMarv Martin: consider that OS imports will be originating from several unique sources
[10:37] Tess Linden is Offline
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: It's not a religious matter .... it'll simply fail, hehe.
[10:37] SignpostMarv Martin: you can't rely on people to not mess with the XML files by adding comments, or adding auto-indentation etc.
[10:38] Rex Cronon: think about it. if u need to chang only one key, u don't really need even regex:)
[10:38] Neosome Anatine is Offline
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah. In fact, it's not even "messing", if it's valid XML
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hence always use the right tool.
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: well, if the format is precisely thesame, but the objectupdate packet can have multiple references to mutiple blocks and multiple variables in each block
[10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: my bad, only one variable of any type, but bultiple blocks
[10:40] Saijanai Kuhn used it for testing packet pretty prineter a couple of weeks ago
[10:41] Canon Dench is Online
[10:41] Zha Ewry: toss mapping ownership and permissions into the fire too
[10:41] Zha Ewry: No way we're goign to be able to duck that
[10:41] Dale Innis: Are we talking about bulk export / import?
[10:41] Zha Ewry: yeps
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: or not
[10:42] Zha Ewry: well
[10:42] Zha Ewry: import mostly
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: export from OpenSim to Agni
[10:42] Zha Ewry: but if you're going to import
[10:42] Zha Ewry: you need to be able to properly assign the ownership of the new items
[10:42] Zha Ewry: and perms
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: export from Agni to OpenSim is in the realm of inter-grid inventory transfer
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: the use case here is this:
[10:42] Dale Innis: Actually import is a much easier problem if there's no export. :P
[10:42] Morgaine Dinova: Just had a thought. How come we haven't even mentioned OGP in this context? Surely it's an object import/export mechanism too, in principle. And there's no reason why terrain shouldn't be an object too, since it's little different to a sculptie map.
[10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: if its a trusted sim/grid/region you'll need to presever permissions etc going back in
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: a development team works offline
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: for a couple of months
[10:42] Zha Ewry: (/me also winces at what happens if you import an offensive object into someone's name)
[10:42] SignpostMarv Martin: then imports their work into Agni
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: ready for launch
[10:43] Dale Innis: yep, good usecase
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: regarding perms/creator mapping,
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: I shall use the WordPress model
[10:43] Dale Innis: Do we care, though, with OGP hats on? Would this be a part of OGP spec?
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: when importing a WXR file to a WordPress installation,
[10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: someone is already working on an advanced building tool using OPenSIm as a backend cache for projects being done in SL
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: WP presents you with a list of detected authors
[10:43] Rex Cronon: it can be done signpostmarv, even using lsl:)
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: you have two options:
[10:43] SignpostMarv Martin: 1) map post author to an existing author
[10:44] Nadine Neddings is Offline
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) create new account
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: so,
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: in the context of OpenSim archive import,
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: this would be a case of:
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: 1) map all creator/owner perms to region owner
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Well, I'm not saying that this necessarily falls under OGP, but just that OGP will transfer objects as well, so there clearly is commonality.
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) map creator/owner perms to these accounts (list)
[10:44] SignpostMarv Martin: 3) create new accounts
[10:45] Dale Innis: Is it only the region owner that can do this?
[10:45] SignpostMarv Martin: well I would assume so,
[10:45] And Clawtooth is Online
[10:45] Dale Innis: Otherwise you also have 1a) map all identities to person doing it.
[10:45] SignpostMarv Martin: since currently only the region owner or a God Mode linden can upload new region terrain
[10:45] SignpostMarv Martin: the same restriction should apply to Region archive import
[10:45] Dale Innis nods.
[10:46] SignpostMarv Martin: are there any other use-cases aside from the one I suggested that people can think of where OpenSim archive import would be used ?
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Terrain should be just a different kind of sculptie.
[10:46] Dale Innis: Backup and restore?
[10:46] SignpostMarv Martin: backup and restore would require import/export
[10:46] SignpostMarv Martin: we're only looking at import here
[10:47] Dale Innis: okay, restore :)
[10:47] SignpostMarv Martin: export is too messy :-P
[10:47] SignpostMarv Martin: ah yes, that was it as well-
[10:47] SignpostMarv Martin: making LL's default region options (the ones selectable in the Land Store) available as OpenSim archives
[10:47] SignpostMarv Martin: allowing people to get a better feel of what they're like
[10:48] Rex Cronon: u might have a problem with "2) map creator/owner perms to these accounts (list)"
[10:48] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: how so ?
[10:49] Rex Cronon: if that is allowed, than any object can be mapped to any account, even without their consent
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: On the OpenSim side, regions are going to vary in size all across the spectrum, from microscopic worlds to planets etc. I think this means that scaling is going to have to be applicable on import too.
[10:49] Dale Innis: Is security hole, yes.
[10:50] SignpostMarv Martin: so for simplicity,
[10:50] Dale Innis: You could just forbid importing to a different-sized place. That's what I'd do. :)
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: SL's sims may stay at 256x256 forever, but OpenSim's won't.
[10:50] SignpostMarv Martin: you're going to have to go with "region owner only" or "create new account"
[10:50] Nadine Neddings is Online
[10:50] SignpostMarv Martin: Morgaine: the size of the region can be detected by parsing the terrain file
[10:51] JayR Cela is Online
[10:51] Morgaine Dinova: Dale: people will be buying various-sized places though, and you don't want to keep a different loadfile for each one just because they're a bit different in size.
[10:51] Dale Innis: hm, I spose
[10:51] Dale Innis: How about "at least large enough to fit?";. :)
[10:52] SignpostMarv Martin: lol
[10:52] SignpostMarv Martin thinks we need to get back to the owner/creator assignment issue before discussing the region dimensions issue
[10:52] Dale Innis: Maybe that's what you meant by scaling? I was just trying to avoid having to stretch/shrink.
[10:53] Morgaine Dinova: Dale: not sure. But I do see sim sizes varying in short order .... because for starters I'll be doing it. :-)) So, it'll be an issue.
[10:53] Rex Cronon: it isn't that hard to stretch/shrink a terrain map:)
[10:54] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: every single prim would have to be moved
[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, but the logic doesn't follow to well in the direction of shrinking houses too ... :PPP
[10:54] SignpostMarv Martin: scaling the terrain might mess up the arrangement of objects
[10:54] SignpostMarv Martin: do you scale the objects up, or just move the root position ?
[10:54] SignpostMarv Martin: srsly,
[10:54] Rex Cronon: u apply same scalling factor to objects:)
[10:54] SignpostMarv Martin: initially only 256x256 sims should be supported
[10:55] SignpostMarv Martin: scaling is just setting up a barrier before we've even started
[10:55] JayR Cela is Offline
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Marv: re owner/creator etc .... we're starting off with Creative Commons assets in AD, so the answer is simple: keep the creater as per source, change the owner to the name of the importer.
[10:56] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[10:56] Rex Cronon: i will be afk for a few minutes, in case i return too late, bye everybody
[10:56] SignpostMarv Martin: doesn't asset/object owner only reference a local UUID now ?
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: If it does, then the export file will have to carry a name map.
[10:56] SignpostMarv Martin: an AD URI ?
[10:56] JayR Cela is Online
[10:57] Morgaine Dinova: At the very least a UUID@grid
[10:57] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, @AD
[10:57] SignpostMarv Martin: Morgaine: what happens if the grid was held on a private IP address,
[10:57] SignpostMarv Martin: or on a dynamic public one
[10:57] Zha Ewry: no nakkie UUIDs
[10:57] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm
[10:58] SignpostMarv Martin: is there anything in OGP for having two ADs talk to each other to say "OH HAI! I R THAT GUY, KTHXBAI"
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: until we get two working ADs talking to each other...
[10:58] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. have the development team on the OpenSim grid authenticate and link their accounts from the development grid to Agni
[10:59] SignpostMarv Martin: so the creator/owner assignment could be largely automated
[10:59] SignpostMarv Martin: and thus not have to deal with the issue of the AD reference end point going poof
[10:59] Morgaine Dinova: Well you have to make your mind up whether the @AD is just a string with deferred interpretation, or whether it's a resolvable reference. The latter is dangerous, because your import availability then becomes conditional on availability of the AD.
[10:59] Dizzy Banjo is Offline
[10:59] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
[10:59] SignpostMarv Martin would prefer the account association setup
[11:00] Buford Philbin is Online
[11:00] SignpostMarv Martin could link SignpostMarv Martin on Agni to SignpostMarv Martin on Marvulous (the name of my personal grid)
[11:00] SignpostMarv Martin: then when the region archive is submitted to Agni,
[11:00] SignpostMarv Martin: it sees that the objects/assets contain references to SignpostMarv Martin on Marvulous,
[11:00] JayR Cela is Offline
[11:00] SignpostMarv Martin: and change them to SignpostMarv Martin on Agni
[11:00] SignpostMarv Martin: optionally making a historical record somewhere
[11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Well, accounts are not really relevant (on the source side) when importing CC assets into a destination. Might as well just have a single universal @CC.
[11:02] JayR Cela is Online
[11:02] Zha Ewry: hmm. I'm debating it I believe that. I sort of do, and it would actually limit some abuse
[11:03] Rex Cronon: i am back
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Reminds me of a comment in the whitepaper of Meerkat ... LL is by default turning everything into a provider-centric system, and really that's not appropriate in many contexts.
[11:03] Rex Cronon: but, adrews office hour should be starting just about now
[11:03] Rex Cronon: so, bye
[11:03] Zha Ewry: kk rex
[11:04] Zha Ewry: and yeah
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova tries to remember what we talked about at Andrew's last time
[11:04] Tess Linden is Online
[11:04] Sidewinder Linden is Offline
[11:04] Zha Ewry: One of the interesting challanges
[11:04] Zha Ewry: is that Linden doesn't seem to think of themselves
[11:04] Zha Ewry: as a platform company
[11:05] Zha Ewry: Far too much focus on "running the game"
[11:05] Cindy Jewell is Online
[11:05] Zha Ewry: not.. "how do we grow the platform"
[11:05] Zha Ewry: and that compleetlye shows up in things like that Morgaine
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, I know. That was quite a shift from the early days of Philip saying they were "hands off", "let the communities rules themselves", etc
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me that this is an area where AWG should be interacting at least a tad with Mr M and company
[11:07] Silicon Plunkett is Online
[11:08] Morgaine Dinova: But I'm starting to not be bothered by LL antics anymore ... with each passing day of LL doing not much and open grids doing more and more, I think we may be witnessing the end of days. And I don't see a turnaround happening --- for some reason they're frozen internally.
[11:08] SignpostMarv Martin notices we're getting off topic
[11:08] SignpostMarv Martin: someone want to summarise for purposes of the chat log ?
[11:08] Zha Ewry nods
[11:08] Zha Ewry: I htink we sum up, and call it a day
[11:09] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think we're close to a topic summary actually. Still lots of issues.
[11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: lots of issues will be with us for a long time
[11:09] Zha Ewry: (and at some point, have a seperate discussion on the "how the community might take into account more and more non LL centric issues"
[11:10] SignpostMarv Martin: do we think there is a demand for a) regions created in OpenSim to be imported to Agni/other LL grids, and b) availablity of LL's region defaults in OpenSim archive format
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: But I think there's loads of experimenting in this area that we can do on the OpenSim side. LL can follow if they want.
[11:10] SignpostMarv Martin: yes/no ?
[11:11] Zha Ewry: I htink its an obvious way people might want to work, SP
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Marv: sure, yes. And for SL sims running CC assets only, on principle, then there should be no big obstacles either.
[11:11] Zha Ewry: I'm less sure, how Linden would react, needless to say
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha, aye
[11:11] SignpostMarv Martin: issues discussed are:
[11:12] SignpostMarv Martin: 1) conflicting UUIDs & prevention of wasteful asset creation
[11:12] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) creator/owner transfer/attribution
[11:12] SignpostMarv Martin: 3) differences in region capabilities/constants
[11:13] Thoys Pan is Online
[11:14] SignpostMarv Martin: anything else ?
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: Add 4) Archive/transfer standards, and beneath the formatting, which set of items are carried for backup/restore, and which for export/import.
[11:14] SignpostMarv Martin: ??
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: ??
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova chuckles
[11:15] Morgaine Dinova: OK, I'll disect thjat
[11:15] joao Mastroianni is Offline
[11:15] SignpostMarv Martin is confused
[11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Backup/restore we understand .... it carries everything, by definition, else you can't restore. However, export from OpenSim and import to SL might require a different set of items.
[11:16] WarKirby Magojiro is Online
[11:17] Morgaine Dinova: So first of all you have to decide which items are relevant for an SL import, and which aren;t.
[11:17] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm not entirely sure what the difference is
[11:17] Keex Rexroth is Online
[11:18] SignpostMarv Martin: I exported the contents of one region and restored them to another
[11:18] SignpostMarv Martin: so they're not tied to the original region handle
[11:18] Zha Ewry: no no
[11:18] ee Oh is Online
[11:18] Zha Ewry: but for example
[11:18] Morgaine Dinova: And then on top of that, since the OpenSim archive format is arbitrary as jhurliman said, and will no doubt continue to evolve, we might need to consider a different format for the actual inter-grid imports, since that requires more stability.
[11:18] Zha Ewry: You could (will) have scriprs in an OPenSim, not in LSL2
[11:18] Zha Ewry: you'd like to not export those
[11:18] SignpostMarv Martin: Zha:
[11:19] SignpostMarv Martin: those would just be saves as scripts that failed to compile
[11:19] Zha Ewry: I suppose, tho.. you might chose to not even export them, gievn you were aiming for LSL
[11:19] SignpostMarv Martin: but yes, the option to have a flag in the export command to say "Classic compatibility mode" :-P
[11:19] Zha Ewry: likewise, if you had extensions
[11:19] Zha Ewry nods
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: Marv: not good enough, since you wouldn't know if you made a good import until you compiled them all.
[11:20] Morgaine Dinova: It's possible to split the import into two phases, first the basic transfer and arrangement, followed by a validation ... involving script compiles and other checking.
[11:20] Zha Ewry: OK, I need to run off and do other things
[11:21] Zha Ewry: Saij? Wiki post at some point?
[11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: K. Signpost, were you planining on archiving this with your summary or want me to and you can add summary later?
[11:21] SignpostMarv Martin thinks validation should occur before the archive is loaded into a sim state
[11:21] SignpostMarv Martin is a little bit ill atm, so I volunteer you, sai :-P
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Oh definitely, long before.
[11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. Add your points at the top later then.
[11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: meeting over?
[11:22] Canon Dench is Offline
[11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Looks like it. But lots to think about.

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18

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