User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 02 05

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	GonzuS Decosta gave you Short request ! to linden labs.
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	should get colton a copy of that..
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Hello Andrew
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	he's a big fishing fan, i think
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	heya andrew
[17:03]	Gypsy Paz:	hey hey
[17:03]	Sindy Tsure:	and squirrely
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Yellow
[17:04]	Gypsy Paz:	hmm I can't find the paratrooper sheep in my inventory, lol
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think I have any announcements today
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	except to mention that I wrote my first CGI scritp today
[17:04]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[17:04]	Gypsy Paz:	;)
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL, gratz :-)
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	oh! going to rewrite the sim software as a web app!!
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Well, the 2nd half of the 1.25 update finished this morning
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	I'm moving into new territory!
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, Role Permissions. That must have been an oversight. Does that even block God Like Rez?
[17:05]	Gypsy Paz:	did it do more than say 'hello cruel world'? lol
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	heh
[17:05]	Sindy Tsure:	hi morgaine & mccabe
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, server-1.25.5 deploy is complete, as Simon mentioned
[17:05]	Squirrel Wood:	my first such script did say "World Domination" :p
[17:05]	Gypsy Paz:	nice
[17:05]	Kitto Flora:	New RC viewer too
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova waves :-)
[17:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy!
[17:06]	Squirrel Wood:	rc8 ?
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure:	typo in your temp prims forum post, andrew.. http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=305651
[17:06]	Squirrel Wood:	old news :p
[17:06]	Gypsy Paz:	yeah, whats does gStream and openAL bring us?
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	a typo that matters?
[17:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, viewing the SL forums from the inworld browser should automatically log you in
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure:	it was " = min (...., 1000)" but you also had "temp_prim_limit = 2000 - 0 + minimum(2000/2 + 400, 1000) = 2000 + 1000 = 3000"
[17:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean in imprudence gypsy?
[17:06]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. wait.. no.. never mind
[17:07]	Gypsy Paz:	the release notes said that RC8 supports gStream and OpenAL
[17:07]	Squirrel Wood:	Isn't the temp prim limit 50% of your parcels allowed prims or 500. Whichever is lower ?
[17:07]	McCabe Maxsted quirks an eyebrow
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Once the Agent Domain is working, the forums might be able to accept authentication from the viewer automatically.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	well thanks for reminding me to go see what kind of activity is going on at that thread
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	I'll read it later.
[17:07]	Sindy Tsure:	thought it was all enclosed in the "min (..., 1000)".. never mind..
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	But, if ou'r vehicle crosses a sim boundary, it's returned to your inventory, until you arrive.
[17:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah, the release notes writer prolly didn't know those jiras, those're linux only
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the URL for SVC-22?
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure:	i have a hot key defined for that one!
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler marvels at how quickly Sindy found tat one.
[17:09]	Simon Linden:	I think Andrew was writing his cgi program especially for that url..
[17:09]	Squirrel Wood:	BUG REPORT!
[17:09]	Squirrel Wood:	Help > Bug Reporting..
[17:09]	Squirrel Wood:	http://jira.secondlife.com
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	hehe, Sindy you've got a chat hot-key configed for SVC-22?
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure:	lol @ simon
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	oh yes, andrew..
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Doesn't sound like a bad way to book mark the more common issues.
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	i'm working it auto-trigger on thursday nights every 10 minutes to save me even more typing!
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone, excuse me if I say something stupid - first time here
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	hi charlette
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova waves at Charlette
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	Welcome, don't worry about asking questions
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, go ahead.
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Dumb Question is unspoken.
[17:10]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. i'll outdo you, charlette.. no worries there
[17:11]	Squirrel Wood:	bookmark for later viewing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRlUD0tb9z4
[17:11]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Charlette
[17:11]	Gypsy Paz:	no worries, all our stupid questions get posted on the web for anyone to read ;)
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	thanks everyone
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler's not new to silly questions, and pathetic insistences
[17:11]	Gypsy Paz:	I have something I want to bring up tongiht
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler never loks quite as brilliant in the transcripts.
[17:11]	Gypsy Paz:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3145
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	go ahead, the table is open. I don't have much on the agenda (as usual)
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Cg Linden send an email description of his office hours, which I hadn't been following.
[17:12]	Gypsy Paz:	thats about llRezObject not working on grouped land where build is disabled and the owner is offline
[17:12]	Sindy Tsure votes
[17:12]	Simon Linden:	Gypsy, is that newly re-opened? Our internal jira that matches it was closed as "could not reproduce"
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Seems he provides little tutorial and HOWTO lessons in his.
[17:13]	Gypsy Paz:	ok, its easy to reproduce, accually its been around since as long as I can rember and has evolved to a 'thats how SL is' deal
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	And he brings internal SL concurrency charts to share.
[17:13]	Sindy Tsure:	i don't see it being reopened
[17:13]	Gypsy Paz:	what makes it hard to reproduce, is cause it only happens when you are not in the sim so you can't see it yourself
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds good Andrew, is that available to us?
[17:14]	Gypsy Paz:	it shows open to me
[17:14]	Gypsy Paz:	at least on the public JIRA
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure:	* i don't see it being reopened after being closed
[17:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	this one was never resolved
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	title for SVC=3145 is "group ROLE permissions only work for scripted rez when owner online (was rez objects only works if i'm online)"
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	sounds like my alt problems may be related, objects keep changing owners when clicked by other group members
[17:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	it also has a nice repro
[17:15]	Simon Linden:	is it really 'online' or 'the person who does the clicking' as described in the 26/Nov comment?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... lots of comments
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	the owner property must be a fluid variable for some reason
[17:16]	Sindy Tsure:	strife comments near the top that this may be a gray goo stop..
[17:16]	Gypsy Paz:	I can give you guys a working script that will not work when that happens, that one accually affects the majority of my products
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Objects don't get rez rights by group membership?
[17:17]	Squirrel Wood:	the way I see this problem is that as long as the owner of the object with permissions is online, it works. Once they log off, the script fails to rez objects on demand. until the owner logs back on. then it works again.
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	sorry for not doing the typing anim but I like to cross my legs when sitting at a table hehe
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	How reproducible is SVC-3145?
[17:17]	Gypsy Paz gave you Gypsy Rope.
[17:17]	Gypsy Paz:	here you go, that will reproduce it
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure:	i think it's 100% for a group-deeded rezzer on group-deeded land
[17:18]	Gypsy Paz:	group owned land on a private island set to no-build will do it every time
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	The rezzers that I have on land I dont own, but in that lands group, will rez objects for people when I am not online
[17:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Group Deeded means the group owns, doesn't it?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	ah. I wonder if there is some intentional limitation on group rez. Dunno.
[17:18]	Gypsy Paz:	deeding the rezzer to the group is the work around
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	These are not 'deeded'
[17:19]	Gypsy Paz:	the problem comes when the rezzer is set to group
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	I advise anyone *NOT* to deed rezzer object. They may loose the item
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	so the rez silently fails? It doesn't chat an error?
[17:20]	Gypsy Paz:	correct
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	yes lots of group deeded stuff works differently and sometimes you just can't tell who deeded a given object
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	oh nevermind, I guess if the owner is not on hand then the error wouldn't be visible anyway.
[17:20]	Gypsy Paz:	once upon a time I got error messages when I was not in that sim
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	ok well, I guess what I've got to say is... if it is reproducible then a bug of this sort shouldn't be too hard to fix
[17:21]	Gypsy Paz:	great ;)
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	IM to the owner would show regardless
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	it just needs some attention
[17:21]	Gypsy Paz:	yes
[17:21]	Gypsy Paz:	thats why Im here, to help that one get some attention ;)
[17:21]	Gypsy Paz:	I know how the tide of the JIRA can be ;)
[17:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just as well there isn't an llCreatorSay()
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	anybody know how to stop the tooltips from popping up under the mouse?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden hunts the preferences...
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	prefs
[17:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	view menu > hover tips
[17:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	or do you mean show xui names?
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	iew Hovertipes
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	c-s-T
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	no I meant like the hover tip for the chat input field
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I've already got regular hover tips disabled it seems
[17:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	you have to edit the xml
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	oh ok
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	The one that completely blocks the chat bar, when you want to type, even though the mouse isn't over the chat bar? View -> Hobertips, I think.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, if you posted a stupid question I think I missed it.
[17:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's in panel_chat_bar.xml
[17:25]	Charlette Proto:	hehe nothing worth repeating
[17:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	We still need a keystroke for Whisper, but we don't need that chat bar tip all the time.
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	yeah that one Arawn, but that ViewMenu->HoverTipsOption thing was already disabled.
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	well it could perhaps be included in the Hover Tips floater there is room
[17:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's strangely in the main chat bar but not in the chat history chat bar
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure comes back after spending 10 minutes on the phone.. you guys kept going while i was gone???
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	sheesh
[17:27]	Squirrel Wood:	type in text. press enter. rethink what you just typed, type proper text. press enter. discover you still fail at typing. correct yourself. press enter thrice to send your message.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	yeah you're right McCabe. Must be a bug... I mean a misfeature.
[17:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	I turn off the main chat entry bar
[17:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh! that reminds me!
[17:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	please don't fix the new invisiprim "feature" until you have an actual working replacement
[17:28]	Squirrel Wood:	that hover tip should be shown as gray text in the chat bar that vanishes as you start typing.
[17:28]	Kitto Flora just wishes IM s would stary OUT of the chat area when the history panel is open
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	new invisiprim feature?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	what invisiprim feature would that be?
[17:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	I know it's in the pipeline, but feature gaps aren't fun
[17:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	the one where you can turn an av's rendering off by overloading its ARC
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	ARC?
[17:29]	Charlette Proto:	Kitt I detach the main chat and use the floater for IMs only
[17:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	avatar rendering cost
[17:29]	Sindy Tsure:	overloading it?? like more than 2 billion?
[17:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	you wear a prim that shoots it up to 130K, which causes the viewer to stop rendering the prim *and* the avatar
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Oh.
[17:29]	Squirrel Wood:	130k arc avatars are still rendered fine :p
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Well, that bug would be fixed by the viewer-side crew
[17:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	no messy invisiprims, it's a big win. Hm, that might not be the number then, but the prim works
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	I saw Barney breaking 131k, on Sunday.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	also, that really is a bug and not a real feature
[17:30]	Squirrel Wood:	it does not cause viewer lag apparently.
[17:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	the bug is better than the current featureset :P
[17:30]	Squirrel Wood:	and is LOVED by avatar creators
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	It should be up to the render on YOUR computer whether to render an avatar it knows about or not.
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure:	why not just have a invisprim'ed avatar?
[17:30]	Gypsy Paz:	are we talking about the invisiprim on every lady's shoe in the game?
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Why would avatar creators love that misfeature?
[17:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	because invisiprims have a problem with overlapping textures (how they work and such)
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure misses what the goal would be
[17:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	When a bug is loved more than the featureset, it should raise some eyebrows :-)
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	because it allows all sorts of great avatars to be created without messy invisiprims
[17:31]	Charlette Proto:	the current invisiprim hides all avies behind it
[17:31]	Squirrel Wood:	invisiprims, the regular ones, cause rendering errors on alpha textures for example.
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	invisiprims hide the environment, other avs, and are just ugly to look at
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. and this new thing doesn't?
[17:31]	Squirrel Wood:	and that "new" method completely dodges that problem.
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	(remember we're customers, this is a customer experience thing. The bug is a win in that dept)
[17:31]	Kitto Flora:	Invisprims always did seem to be a hack
[17:31]	Sindy Tsure:	they're fun in water :)
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	oh, are you talking about the render order incorrectness when wearing transparent attachments?
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure:	hi rex
[17:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	the same way the animation "bug" is a win for avatar creators who use many anims to create complex dragon avs
[17:32]	Rex Cronon:	hi sindy
[17:32]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[17:32]	Squirrel Wood:	the "broken" animations ?
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	yep I totally hate when stupid avies using invisiprims hide chunks of all those viewed behind them
[17:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Rex
[17:32]	Sindy Tsure drops an invisprim on the table
[17:33]	Squirrel Wood:	btw... there is a type of invisiprim that is *not* shown when you have "show invisible" turned on.
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	BTW what is it about the sound files that don't play, CODEC loading or something?
[17:33]	Squirrel Wood:	as in, not highlighted in red
[17:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	yeah, that invisiprim is a cloak, not object invisibility
[17:34]	Charlette Proto:	I haven't come across those Squirrel, but what is the diff?
[17:34]	Squirrel Wood:	its hard to find
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure:	where's "show invisible" setting?
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	News to me Charlette. Also, I haven't heard of these new totally invisible invisiprims (resistant to "hilight transparent objects" option)
[17:34]	Squirrel Wood:	ctrl-alt-t
[17:34]	Gypsy Paz:	cntl-alt-T
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	c-a-t
[17:34]	Charlette Proto:	c a T
[17:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	<ctrl><alt>t
[17:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	And it's not even a good cloak, since it only cloaks our avs and not our attachments.
[17:34]	Sindy Tsure:	highlight transparent? i never see invisprims with that
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	oh really? hrm
[17:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	they're a recent discovery, the one I'm referring to. Perfect for creating tiny avs
[17:35]	McCabe Maxsted hasn't either
[17:35]	Charlette Proto:	Andrew there is a lot on silent soundfiles on JIRA
[17:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Does Highlight Transparent show Totally Clear, or just Alpha?
[17:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	anything with alpha
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	more sound bugs?
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	invisiprim isn't an alpha thing.. it's like a custom cue to the renderer
[17:36]	Charlette Proto:	the weird thing about the sounds not playing is that it is completely random as it timing was critical or something like this
[17:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Invisiprim will cloak your attachments, if you set them slightly transparent.
[17:36]	Charlette Proto:	the same file will behave differently for various avies at different times
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	paste some SVC- jira numbers for posterity Charlette
[17:37]	Squirrel Wood:	sounds not playing seems to happen when a) the file is not sent in time and b) it is not sent in its entirety upon which the client generates a file of equal length but totally silent.
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Is this sound problem really about the time it takes for the sound file to reach each Av's viewer?
[17:37]	Squirrel Wood:	and once a sound sits "decoded to wav" in the cache it is not reloaded from the asset server until you restart the client. cause the decoded sound files are deleted on exit.
[17:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well you don't have control over all your attachments, so can't set all to slightly transparent, so that's a broken approach.
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	I think the sound files (like the image files) are still going through our legacy UDP packet streaming system.
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Sounds should be moved to HTTP downloads, just like textures should be.
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yes
[17:38]	Kitto Flora:	give it 20 secs
[17:38]	Squirrel Wood:	textures are on http methinks since rc7 ?
[17:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	really?
[17:38]	Simon Linden:	no, they're still using the old system
[17:39]	Squirrel Wood:	rc7 vastly improved texture load times for me
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	There was an HTTP-texture-download project that has been mostly completed.
[17:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	I thought there was just one beta http region up
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	OK If you wre going to get the sound file.. youd have it by now
[17:39]	Squirrel Wood:	it required 1.25 server side
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Go
[17:39]	Simon Linden:	There was a bug in the viewer I fixed for that texture load time
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	I can't remember why it didn't get completed.
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Weasel Pop
[17:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Synced fo rme
[17:39]	Simon Linden:	There's some talk in the office about doing HTTP textures, though, so it may happen sometime
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Tough it was slow to rez the joker
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	the first time someone has to download that sound it can take a while, but it is may be cached
[17:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, please leave udp behind in the dust
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	so the next trigger should play on time
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	yes, it seems to be synced
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	for me anyway
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	on_rez(integer rc){
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Timewarp and Hot Ass tend to require two performannces, on my system.
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	sounds not playing https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-291
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	As I recall... the HTTP texture download path was complete in the client, but the server part needed to be finished.
[17:41]	Gypsy Paz:	Im pretty sure llPreloadSound() only preloads for people that are nearby when its called
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, didn't you do some work or investigation into that?
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	YEs and only if the object is actulally rezzed
[17:42]	Simon Linden:	playing sounds?
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	in front of them
[17:42]	Squirrel Wood:	llPreloadSound is listed as deprecated
[17:42]	McCabe Maxsted is curious how the new inventory fetching is coming along
[17:42]	Squirrel Wood:	on the wiki
[17:42]	Gypsy Paz:	I usally preload my sound right before I play the sound
[17:42]	Gypsy Paz:	oh really?
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	the sound prob is also related to gestures so I thought it may be beyond LSL functions
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	If I walk up to an exisitng rezzed Jackinabox, and click it - usually the first playing is greatly delayed.
[17:43]	Arawn Spitteler lost the body of his new Plush Dragon Avatar: Animations are another area, where Sync is a challenge, and that one doesn't preload.
[17:43]	Gypsy Paz:	yeah, it has to buffer, just like winamp comes in with a few seconds delay
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	well syncing the animation and sound in gestures is a total joke
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	really? sounds are streamed?
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure assumed they were downloaded 100% then played
[17:44]	Gypsy Paz:	no, but they still have to download
[17:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	inworld sounds and streaming are two totally different processes
[17:44]	Squirrel Wood:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSoundPreload
[17:44]	Kitto Flora:	The file is streamed udp and saved, then played
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto is right.
[17:44]	Squirrel Wood:	though, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlPreloadSound is not. so that one should be used.
[17:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	But Winamp streams are high bandwidth. This clips should download almost instantly -- subsecond.
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	k.. good.. that's what i thought..
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	not a delay, some files just will not play no matter how many times that file is requested for the given avie, yet others may hear it so it is in the viewer/connection combination
[17:45]	Gypsy Paz:	(This function has been deprecated, please use llPreloadSound instead.)
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	So if you click ,and the script says play the file, and you dont have the file, you have to wait for the file to get udp'd to you, then it plays. Usually far too late
[17:45]	Gypsy Paz:	I've always used llPreloadSOund()
[17:45]	Charlette Proto:	forget llPreloadSound it is a lower down problem
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	If you do something like /touch_start/ preload sound/ sleep 30 secs/ start anim and sound, it will probably work in sync
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	it affects gestures as well as llPlaySound
[17:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	What's the bit depth and samplerate on sounds?
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	44.1k 16 bit stereo
[17:46]	Kitto Flora:	ell - mono really
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	right, the delay in the first play of a new sound was an obvious failure in the llPlaySound() functionality. llPreloadSound() is a way for content creators to work around it.]
[17:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	No no, sounds, not music
[17:47]	Charlette Proto:	it happens randomly on all sounds, the same sound will play one time but not the next and not the same to all avies
[17:47]	Kitto Flora:	44.1k mono 16 bit is whats uploaded
[17:47]	Charlette Proto:	even the sounds the user has just downloaded
[17:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, but download is something like 12KHz samplerate
[17:47]	Morgaine Dinova thinks where read that
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	it is to do with network timing and file headers or something like that
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Not surprised if the SL System munges the file
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure:	is it off by just a little or a lot? like seconds or fractions of a second?
[17:49]	Kitto Flora:	There was a trick used to speed up sound playing: You run a scanner looking for avs in the area. If theres any around you play the sound file(s) at 0 volume.
[17:49]	Kitto Flora:	That pushes the file onto the Avs
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice trick :-)
[17:49]	Sindy Tsure:	shouldn't that be the same as llPreloadSound ?
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	The problem with llPreloadSound() is that it sends a message to all the viewers saying "go load this sound"
[17:49]	Kitto Flora:	As usual: More CPU overhead to script around a SL deficiency.
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	If you're not around when it's called, you don't get the message
[17:50]	Charlette Proto:	what I'm talking about files not playing at all for some users at certain times even the 44.1 16bit mono files
[17:50]	Charlette Proto:	forget the LSL side unless I'm talking about something else that the rest, it happens with gestures too
[17:50]	Kitto Flora:	llPreloadSound() was a 'nice idea' that dont work.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	But Simon, llPlaySound() must work in a similar way. Each nearby viewer gets a message to the effect "go download this sound (and then play it)"
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	yes, it would be the same thing with gestures
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	Charlette - so some people can play the sounds, others never can?
[17:51]	Sindy Tsure:	sounds like it's just a way to make sure it's in the cache
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	don't you get it gestures don't use LSL for what I know
[17:51]	Squirrel Wood:	sounds... I have a few sounds that refuse to load for me. all the time. but others can hear those fine.
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	Yes Andrew, but that's why putting it in the onRez() handler isn't effective if the object sits around
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	I've often wondered... there must be a way to cache more data (textures, sounds, animations) on the client machines.
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	squids!
[17:52]	Gypsy Paz:	idea: what if sounds could be loaded onto a prim propery and preload like textures? it would add more load to 'rezzing in' but it would help to sync that
[17:52]	Charlette Proto:	I'm talking about a prob where sometimes I can play a file but some avies don't hear it and the next time I'll not hear it but others (some) can
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	I would guess that these days most SL Residents would be happy to dedicate 10's or even 100's of GB of cache space if they could.
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	One can change cache size...
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure just replaced a failing disk.. got a 500gb because it was so cheap..
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	BUT
[17:53]	Squirrel Wood:	cache size is soooo limited in the client
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	sorry but I'm trying to zero in on the specifics and I think it is something to do with the way the files (or headers) are loaded that makes them time critical
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	There seem to be cases where the client ignores whats in Cache - and loads it over again. Like textures
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	diminishing returns on big cache sizes.. too many files in too few directories
[17:53]	Squirrel Wood:	but that is for speed reasons... bigger cache = longer lookup = faster to bug the asset server
[17:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: yes! Perfectly right. For those who are in SL continuously, buying a 750GB for cache is a no-brainer upgrade. If only the cache worked.
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Charlette - just guessing here, but there's a lot of things that could break along the way for that ... downloading gets stuck, something odd with the sound driver, etc
[17:54]	Charlette Proto:	yes big cache is a waste of time on a good connection with lots of RAM
[17:54]	Squirrel Wood:	textures are... stupidly cached in my opinion
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	I seem to recall several rounds of discussions about how to improve the cache in general, internally and also in the sldev email list
[17:54]	Sindy Tsure:	not sure i'd agree, charlette.. i live in a busy sim with too many textures..
[17:54]	Charlette Proto:	AH another thing it started happening since the new quicktime version was implemented
[17:55]	Squirrel Wood:	I mean, storing the file headers in a single big file while putting the image body in a subfolder..... then have to find the proper header and body .... yuck.
[17:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: Big cache is never a waste of time, even if you had a direct ethernet connection to LL.
[17:55]	Squirrel Wood:	also, not removing "outdated" headers but just appending new ones at the end...
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	and storing them compressed..
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	I think the initial conclusions internally were: "caching lots of data is a harder problem than you think" but I still don't get why it would be so hard.
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	so maybe Quicktime integration is to blame
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	I don't recall the conclusion of the sldev thread, I never read the end of it (happened last year or the one before that)
[17:56]	Squirrel Wood:	as things stand the client side cache needs a total rework.
[17:56]	Charlette Proto:	but I have more RAM than the cashe Morgaine and my cache is in RAM drive anyway
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	one reason is that the file system tends to really slow down when you've got a bazillion things in one directory, like the sl cache does
[17:56]	Squirrel Wood:	perchance use something like sqlite for quick lookups or something
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	fwiw the caching works better than you think - about 6 months ago the default plywood texture got deleted from our asset system, and it took a while to find out about it
[17:56]	Charlette Proto:	the cashe should be a database like in Google Earth not 20k individual files
[17:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: ram caches work out of disk caches, they're separate levels of storage.
[17:57]	Gypsy Paz:	what would be cool, if someone came up with some sort of dual cache that ran both static and dyamic, so like people can 'save' sims they often visit
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	lol, simon
[17:57]	Squirrel Wood:	I have changed my "default" texture in the debug settings, yet when I create a new prim it still wears its plywood clothing
[17:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, funny Simon :-)
[17:57]	Squirrel Wood:	so I go into edit mode, then change the texture to "default".
[17:57]	Charlette Proto:	I mean I use a RAM Drive for my cashe HD is not touched Morgaine
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure had a question unrelated to caches.. dunno if there's time, though
[17:57]	Simon Linden:	?
[17:58]	Squirrel Wood:	I prefer this texture as my default
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	go ahead Sindy
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	about object updates when a script changes text or particles or something..
[17:58]	Charlette Proto:	my picture should be the default texture hehe
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	if that's done in an attachment, how much does the sim resend? just that one attachment, yes?
[17:59]	Charlette Proto:	BTW what do you think of a database like in Google Earth not 20k individual files for the cache
[17:59]	Squirrel Wood:	sqlite...
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	the update messages would be per-prim Sindy, per prim that has changed
[17:59]	Simon Linden:	Sindy - yes, it should just be the one thing
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	per prim or per object?
[17:59]	Gypsy Paz:	a database driven cache sounds like a wonderful idea
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	i thought a full update (a red poof when show updates is enabled) was the whole object getting sent
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	per prim. I suspect some changes may trigger an update for every prim.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	er... some operations will trigger an update for every prim
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	such as select/deselect
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. great.. ty! :)
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	I think database cache would be better than VFS on the HD and would benefit from existing technology
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	lighter load on HD I meant
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	The VFS really should go ... could still use the API and just re-implement
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, when we get the HTTP download pipeline working we should make a plugin arch for the caching mechanism on the client side
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	I user RAM Drive to spare the HD all the tedious work, the heat and power
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	then people could more easily experiment with cache types
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	although... I guess one cache strategy would eventually win out
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	The VFS API isn't too bad - if someone can write a cache, they should be able to plug into it
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	hopefully that's a battery powered ram drive.. you're reloading the world every time you reboot if not..
[18:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't try to solve one poor operating system's filesystem problems at the expense of other systems that work please. If Windows can't cope with lots of files, that's no reason for screwing up other systems that do. Just add an access mechanism to access those files more effeciently than Windows does.
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	absolutely Simon and the current cache appears to be slow in comparison with Google Earth cache
[18:03]	Squirrel Wood:	the current cache tears textures apart
[18:03]	Squirrel Wood:	so you have to waste time finding the two pieces
[18:03]	Simon Linden:	They should just get stuck in sub-folders ... mycache/1/2/4/1231-123123-123123-231.texture, for example
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	that is so stupid to split texture files
[18:03]	Sindy Tsure:	that'd be a big help simon!
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	You know... we could probably estimate the $ LL would save if it just implemented better/bigger caching client-side.
[18:03]	Simon Linden:	I think the reason for that was to be able to get the header info easily, but I'm not sure
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Texture Files have different levels of detail cached?
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	lets think of using a single file database instead
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	and that money saved would probably cover the development resources it would take to implement.
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	no, arawn
[18:04]	Squirrel Wood:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Texture_cache
[18:04]	Charlette Proto:	just look at Google Earth performance
[18:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: very true!!!! Every cache improvement, and larger disk caches, simple saves Linded tons of bandwidth costs.
[18:04]	Simon Linden:	heck, you could use your own Amazon S3 account as a cache...
[18:04]	Squirrel Wood:	google stores everything at every cluster. with multiple redundancy.
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	simon should get a bonus for the viewer fix he did!
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	all that bandwidth saved..
[18:04]	Simon Linden:	It was one line, Sindy :)
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	don't tell your boss that!
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	just had to find which one...
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. is andrew your boss?
[18:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: let's NOT think of using a single file database? Where do you get such a back to front idea?
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	nope
[18:05]	Andrew Linden is not Simon's boss.
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. it's not too late then
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	yeah simon, make it two lines (add a comment)
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	ah the constant reloading of textures, I agree that was shocking on the bandwidth and sime performance
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	I'm not even on the viewer team ... I was working on textures from that side, and found that the viewer wasn't asking for data
[18:06]	Raven Gelles gave you Raven Gelles needs bear!.
[18:06]	Simon Linden:	So I dug into it and found a simple logic error
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	Which viewer is that fix in?
[18:06]	Sindy Tsure:	you did a bunch of perf stuff last year, simon.. we going to see that soon? xml parsing and such..
[18:06]	Simon Linden:	the latest RC
[18:06]	Kitto Flora:	I hope for faster rezzing signs :)
[18:06]	Charlette Proto:	why Morgaine Google Earth cache is a single file database and it works great
[18:06]	Squirrel Wood:	it will not ask for data if the texture is complete or the timeout for a download is not yet reached. otherwise it will. and a lot of textures are not fully cached.
[18:07]	Simon Linden:	That's all in the back-end systems ... some it out already, some coming in the next months
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	great!
[18:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Google Earth cache is not caching continually changing objects!
[18:07]	Charlette Proto:	besides being light on the system GE cache is faster going by my impressions
[18:07]	Charlette Proto:	it is if you move around Morgaine eg flying
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've got to run. Thanks for coming everyone.
[18:07]	Squirrel Wood:	also, bandwidth costs past a certain amount of data are... negligible or something
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure:	me too..
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure:	ty, andrew & simon!
[18:08]	Charlette Proto:	byee Andrew
[18:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew + Simon :-)
[18:08]	Rex Cronon:	bye verybody
[18:08]	Kitto Flora:	Dinner time!
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure throws a sheep at kitto and runs away
[18:08]	Kitto Flora:	Bybye all
[18:08]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming