AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-06

[9:27] JayR Cela: hi there Sai
[9:28] Zha Ewry: I'm not sure Sai is awake, I've yet to see the daily Groupies spam
[9:28] Liandra Ceawlin: I got one at 0912, but he's been awfully quiet since. XD
[9:28] JayR Cela: oh hi there Zha
[9:28] Zha Ewry: Who let Zha on the sim?. She's nothing but trouble.
[9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: not officially awake, but taking transcript even so
[9:29] Zha Ewry: ah
[9:29] Zha Ewry: Agenda is going to include "Domains are not currently first class obejcts"
[9:29] JayR Cela: so another rolling restart today ?
[9:29] Liandra Ceawlin: Hey blukitty.
[9:29] Zha Ewry: Along with some dicussion about policy enforcement implications
[9:30] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 9:30 AM: AWGroupies: Weekly AWG meeting (group members only - IM Saijanai Kuhn for invite)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/155/129/23 (Starts now)
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya all
[9:30] JayR Cela: hi there Morgaine
[9:30] Zha Ewry: I'd actually hoped to get the post on that out, but php was being cranky as all get out
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Jay
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, nice topic.
[9:30] Zha Ewry: I think so
[9:30] JayR Cela: *bigg huggs to everyone
[9:31] Zha Ewry: Since we don't have a "domain" service endpoint
[9:31] Zha Ewry: Its pretty bloody hard to talk about askign a domain anything
[9:31] Zha Ewry: You *may* recall, back 18 months ago, I wantdown that road
[9:31] Zha Ewry: *went down
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: If domains were nuked from orbit, we'd be making massively more progress, that's for sure. Everyone understands what a service is. Not even LL understands what domains are --- they seem to equate them with magic.
[9:32] Zha Ewry: "Lets disucss what services a domain would offer"
[9:32] Zha Ewry: Well, absent any servcie end point
[9:32] JayR Cela: has anyone trie out / www.inworldz.com ?
[9:32] Zha Ewry: they pretty much are what peope imagine
[9:32] Zha Ewry: random ideas, with no concrete rules
[9:32] Mojito Sorbet: You do not mean "domain" in the DNS sense, do you?
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: It's closed and proprietary Jay, so of no interest
[9:32] Zha Ewry: No
[9:33] Zha Ewry: Domain, in the "Collection of services with common properties" roughtlu
[9:33] Zha Ewry: sense
[9:33] Zha Ewry: But
[9:33] Zha Ewry: The terms become useless, and so
[9:33] Mojito Sorbet: I could see how people could be conbfused about that
[9:33] Zha Ewry: either we should just remove it
[9:33] Morgaine Dinova: Mojito: Agent Domain and Region Domain, in OGP-speak. With possibly other domains added, unless we nuke domains and just leave services.
[9:33] Zha Ewry: or formally define it
[9:34] Zha Ewry: So, I'll also walk through my "commoon front end" thought
[9:34] Mojito Sorbet: Service Group
[9:34] Zha Ewry: which I think would actualyl give you a model for thinking about it
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Good word that
[9:35] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 9:30 AM: AWGroupies: Weekly AWG meeting (group members only - IM Saijanai Kuhn for invite)
http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/155/129/23 (Started 5 minutes ago)
[9:35] Zha Ewry: and. Give it about 2 more minutes
[9:35] Zha Ewry: and I'll get into this
[9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Making tea then :P
[9:36] JayR Cela: ok
[9:36] Zha Ewry: so.. I'm going to start with: "There is no first class object called domain"
[9:37] Zha Ewry: The terms is in the specs, but its ill defined, and more importantly, doesn't show up as a service or endpoint
[9:37] Zha Ewry: From a point of view of history, it reasonably fell out of Linden's attempts to start offloading services from the sims
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: To get in the spirit of nuking, I just nuked an old cup of tea .... turning taste buds off.
[9:38] Zha Ewry: 'This stuff doesn't have anything to do with simulating a region" so lets remove it from the region
[9:38] Zha Ewry: So, that left you with a nice enough split
[9:38] Zha Ewry: "Regoins" "not regions"
[9:38] JayR Cela: hi there Rex
[9:38] Rex Cronon: hi jayr. hi everybody
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: That's a fair summary, Zha
[9:38] Zha Ewry: After over two years of arm wrestilng
[9:38] Zha Ewry: two things seem to have happened
[9:39] Zha Ewry: The cracks have all shown up
[9:39] Zha Ewry: and.. we've gotten a bunch more coherent about what is being defined, and.. lo, there is no "domain" service
[9:39] Zha Ewry: so
[9:39] JayR Cela: crack's in what sense ?
[9:40] Zha Ewry: Cracks in the simple model of two parts
[9:40] Zha Ewry: By the time we got to the chater and asuch, the best we ot out of Region and Agent domain
[9:40] Zha Ewry: was "if its got a auth service" its and "agent domain" and "if its got a land service(presence of avatars) it s a "region domain"
[9:40] Zha Ewry: This ignores what if I have neither
[9:41] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[9:41] Rex Cronon: afk
[9:41] Zha Ewry: And. begs the question of what being in one or the other buys you
[9:41] Zha Ewry: reloads the broken record player
[9:41] Zha Ewry: I've been saying for a while noe
[9:41] Zha Ewry: *now
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: To that, the fact that "AD" is being used synonymously with "everything we don't want to specify" has made technical discussions extremely difficult.
[9:42] Zha Ewry: that everything happens in services, so, we can only talk about that.
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Yep.
[9:42] Zha Ewry: (Not quite true, there are also "eventish streams" but.. they count
[9:42] Zha Ewry: as endpoints, just funny ones)
[9:42] Zha Ewry: So...
[9:42] Zha Ewry: That all said
[9:43] Zha Ewry: When you say "Ok, its all on the services"
[9:43] Morgaine Dinova: No different to the Data stream alongside an FTP sessions's Control stream --- there's precedent for "funny" endpoints.
[9:43] Zha Ewry: then effectyively you end up with the "may I have a seed cap to this region" as your policy enforcement point for entering a region
[9:43] JayR Cela: well thats no big deal
[9:43] Zha Ewry: and. as several people pointed out
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Well, if I have a ton of regions
[9:44] Zha Ewry: I end up with the "Can you come here" code in each of them
[9:44] Zha Ewry: That's not inherently bad
[9:44] Zha Ewry: I mentioned on the mailing list a few days back, one way aroudn that
[9:44] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, so maybe permission to enter a region could be mediated somewhere other than the region itself?
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Well, so, let me poke at this
[9:45] Zha Ewry: You can host that cap seperate from the regions
[9:45] JayR Cela: so you write a loop code to check permissions
[9:45] Zha Ewry: (In general, tho, its the right place to check, at the region entry, not seperate, especially if your RESTish)
[9:45] JayR Cela: let it run 3 or 4 times and stop
[9:45] Zha Ewry: But.. So. to noodle for a moment
[9:46] JayR Cela: add a kill command
[9:46] Zha Ewry: You deploy the "Checking code" in a cluster of hosts, map them onto the right caps and maybe even save yourself some trouble if you aremoving locally, by caching there
[9:46] Zha Ewry: The model supports this just fine
[9:46] Zha Ewry: But.. Its a little odd
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Becuase you're now encapsulating a shared function implicitly, which.. I'm not sure I love
[9:47] Infinity Linden: uh oh. are we going to have a discussion about caps?
[9:47] Zha Ewry: No
[9:47] Infinity Linden: cool.
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Or only indreictly
[9:47] Zha Ewry: So.. just to finish off the thought
[9:47] JayR Cela: well loops are kool if you kill them
[9:48] JayR Cela: thwy can be very usefull
[9:48] Zha Ewry: The other problem sort of lurking in this decomposition, is that we haves two other inetrestign anomolies. One.. Services in deployments with out either a Auth Service or a Region Presence Servcie.. Which don't belong to any domain"
[9:48] Zha Ewry: and the other is
[9:49] Infinity Linden: why is this a problem?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: the fact that some regions (many) are likely to be in multiple
[9:49] Zha Ewry: It isn't inherently its an oddity
[9:49] Zha Ewry: And. the startint point was the observation that
[9:49] Zha Ewry: as
[9:49] Infinity Linden: why is it an oddity?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Domains aren't first class objects
[9:49] Infinity Linden: why not?
[9:49] Infinity Linden: they are to me
[9:49] Zha Ewry: we can't askt hem questions or adress them or manipulate them
[9:49] Zha Ewry: There is no domain service
[9:49] Infinity Linden: why not?
[9:50] Infinity Linden: so. make one
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Well, that's one option
[9:50] Zha Ewry: As speced
[9:50] Zha Ewry: there isn't one
[9:50] Zha Ewry: and
[9:50] Infinity Linden: might be useful for introspecting on the trust model
[9:50] Zha Ewry: oh by the way
[9:50] Zha Ewry: when I poroposed one
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Back in 2007
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Zero went pretty non linear
[9:50] Infinity Linden: mmm... what exactly were you proposing? service discovery?
[9:50] Zha Ewry: No
[9:51] Infinity Linden: well. let's sneak it in while zero's not looking
[9:51] Zha Ewry: I was asking "if we have these things, how do we talk to them, determine memebership, ask about properies, and policy"
[9:51] Infinity Linden: ah
[9:51] Infinity Linden: i think what zero went ballistic about
[9:51] Infinity Linden: was the whole dynamically determining policy thing
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Mostly
[9:52] Infinity Linden: and dynamically determining function
[9:52] Zha Ewry: it was membershipa nd properties
[9:52] Zha Ewry: and all of this becomes cogent
[9:52] Zha Ewry: when people start saying
[9:52] Zha Ewry: "In order to do X, you should consult the coresponding domain"
[9:52] Infinity Linden: we have fixed code. at the end of the day, if you have a feature that adds functionality to the protocol, but can't distribute code to utilize that functionality, that's a problem
[9:53] Infinity Linden: ah. service discovery
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Its a number of painful issues tangled together
[9:53] Infinity Linden: i think we think service discovery shouldn't be a required part of the protocol
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Pretty much agreed
[9:53] Zha Ewry: But..
[9:53] Zha Ewry: You have said a number of time "Consult the X domain"
[9:53] Zha Ewry: which is problematic if
[9:53] Zha Ewry: we only have services
[9:53] Infinity Linden: but honestly. if peeps want to add it on top, i have no problem with that. but. i'm not going to hold up the spec so people can figure out how to wedge it in
[9:54] Infinity Linden: me?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: Well, we can either
[9:54] Zha Ewry: yeps
[9:54] Infinity Linden: i've said "the domain determines policy"
[9:54] Zha Ewry: Which it can't, if it doesn't exist
[9:54] Zha Ewry: The best you can get to is
[9:54] Zha Ewry: "A bunch of services which share a policy"
[9:54] Infinity Linden: if i say "ask the domain" i mean "ask the appropriate service on the domain"
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: The spec is whatever the workgroup obtains rough consensus on. It's not moving where any one individual wants it to move without rough consensus.
[9:54] Mojito Sorbet: If by domain you mean "A collection of services under one administration" (to borrow a term from CCITT...
[9:55] Zha Ewry: And that's kind of fuzzy, if you only can define domain in terms of "Shared policies"
[9:55] Mojito Sorbet: Then that Administration can set policy, which all of its services adhere to
[9:55] Infinity Linden: so we can't agree to the thing i sent out last night?
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Notall of it
[9:55] Zha Ewry: I agree with 90% or a bit more
[9:55] Zha Ewry: The region gets to do whatever the heck it wants
[9:56] Zha Ewry: if it demands you have a token from The Leoplueridon
[9:56] Zha Ewry: It can demand that
[9:56] Zha Ewry: And, we can have hundreds of such collections all of which share that demand
[9:56] Mojito Sorbet: But the "Administration" is not itself an adressible object
[9:56] Zha Ewry: But.. that pushes domain into a very nebulous place
[9:56] Zha Ewry: which may be fine
[9:56] Infinity Linden: no. i do not have an IP address
[9:57] Infinity Linden: my network hosts do
[9:57] Infinity Linden: okay. let's take it one line at a time
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: There's good agreement for that view too in the group. That regions determine region-related policies is of huge interest to everyone wanting the multi-world deployments, and Joshua has accepted that.
[9:57] Infinity Linden: we use the term "domain" to mean "a collection of systems and networks over which control is exercised."
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Every service determines its own policies
[9:57] Infinity Linden: do we agree with this or not agree with this?
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: No
[9:57] Zha Ewry: I don't think so
[9:57] Mojito Sorbet: I used to go to CCITT standards meetings (thats for telephones, etc) and the term they used was "Administyration". The German PTT is one Administration. So it (was) AT&T.
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: That's a useless definition
[9:57] Infinity Linden: then nothing else follows
[9:58] Infinity Linden: what term are we going to use for "a collection of systems and networks over which control is exercised."
[9:58] Zha Ewry: The term domain, attm is being used in at least three ways
[9:58] Infinity Linden: how bout a "sapir"
[9:58] Infinity Linden: in honor of Sapir-Worf
[9:58] JayR Cela: well when i can take the stuff i created to an open simm place I will be happy
[9:59] JayR Cela: untill then this is all worthless
[9:59] Infinity Linden: for what it's worth, i grabbed that definition for a domain out of the dictionary
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Its a fine one, Infiinty
[9:59] Zha Ewry: But. its not in the specs
[9:59] Zha Ewry: and it isn't in how people keep using it attm
[9:59] Infinity Linden: it's in the discussions on the email list
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: JayR: Joshua is helping us get where you want to go with multi-world deployments and shared asset services
[9:59] Zha Ewry: and its not enrtirely clear to me how it maps onto the servcies
[9:59] Infinity Linden: it was also in private conversations between us
[9:59] Infinity Linden: but sure. well put it in the specs
[9:59] Infinity Linden: we'll change the name to sapir
[10:00] Infinity Linden: the "authority" is the entity (individual or group) that exercises the control.
[10:00] Infinity Linden: do we agree to this?
[10:00] JayR Cela: i want to take my stuff / i created
[10:00] JayR Cela: and its not easy
[10:00] Infinity Linden: no JayR, it is not easy. there's a reason it's not easy
[10:00] JayR Cela: untill you do that then / i not happy
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: JayR: it's very easy, but some Lindens are blocking it. Other Lindens are not blocking it though.
[10:01] Infinity Linden: part of what this group is trying to do is make it possible in a way that meets the requirements of all stakeholders
[10:01] Mojito Sorbet: Moving stuff from one adminstrative area to another has all sort of problems, only the least of which are technical.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Rifght, If you created the stuff and have it on yoru hard disk, upload away
[10:02] Zha Ewry: if you want a mdediated scheme
[10:02] JayR Cela: well i must be stupid
[10:02] Zha Ewry: That's where were' headed
[10:02] Mojito Sorbet: The technical problems have to be solved, but there are on-technical ones to be solved to (not here)
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: It's very easy to define and identify freely migratable assets. After that the blocks are given by policy, because the technical solutions are not hard.
[10:03] JayR Cela: i dont want to steal anything from any one / i have things i have created and i cant transfer them to
[10:03] JayR Cela: so this is not good
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: VWRAP is certainly heading towards multi-world deployments with shared assets between worlds, as its a use case with monumental support.
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Eeep. One moment, let me make this RL person go away
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[10:04] Mojito Sorbet: Uploading the same thing to multiple worlds is somewhat easy, depending what it is.
[10:04] Infinity Linden: @JayR. have you filed a JIRA about item download, or voted on any of the existing ones?
[10:04] Mojito Sorbet: And which world you are talking abouit
[10:04] Mystical Demina: maybe initial load, what abuot updates, dynamic cotent
[10:04] JayR Cela: well we been talking about this for 4 years
[10:04] Mystical Demina: gets more complicated
[10:05] Infinity Linden: that's not a feature of the protocol we're discussing (thought the feature of the service COULD use the protocol to implement it.)
[10:05] JayR Cela: when are we going to make it happen
[10:05] Infinity Linden: JayR. we don't have a magic button that makes all the problems go away.
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: We're discussing shared asset services in the group, so it's coming.
[10:05] Infinity Linden: we have a number of stakeholders. we have to deploy a solution that works for all of them.
[10:06] Mojito Sorbet: The particular discussion today it not about that though
[10:06] Mojito Sorbet: I mean about shared assets
[10:06] JayR Cela: ok
[10:06] JayR Cela: i just wait
[10:07] JayR Cela: other than that everything seems to be running smothly
[10:08] Zha Ewry: So.. Here's where I think the nub of this is
[10:08] Morgaine Dinova: listens
[10:08] Zha Ewry: There's this very understandable tendancy that peopel have tot hink of domains as sort of membranes
[10:08] Zha Ewry: This showed up all over the last few days discussions on policy
[10:09] Zha Ewry: "Inside this domain" "When entering this domain" "When running inside this domani"
[10:09] Zha Ewry: But.
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: Membranes in the sense of a dividing line, or in the theoretical physics sense?
[10:09] Zha Ewry: What we have, in the specs (and it may be just fine)
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: I think you mean the former.
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Dividing line
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: i HOPE you mean the former
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: ok
[10:09] Infinity Linden: but. domains _are_ a sort of membrane. they are the dividing line between administrative control.
[10:09] Zha Ewry: but
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Right
[10:09] Zha Ewry: But...
[10:10] Zha Ewry: what we HAVE in the spec
[10:10] Mojito Sorbet: A domain is the volume ENCLOSED by the membrane
[10:10] Zha Ewry: is Services and policies
[10:10] JayR Cela: well the specs are fine and the code compile under Linux
[10:10] Zha Ewry: The most we really get in terms of somethign we can touch on is
[10:10] Zha Ewry: "oh, look, all these services are inside a domain, and share some policies"
[10:10] Rex Cronon: when u say membrane do u think of interface?
[10:10] Infinity Linden: how 'bout this example.
[10:10] Infinity Linden: someone asks for some content from me
[10:11] Infinity Linden: i look at the client certificate
[10:11] JayR Cela: but Windows I have trouble with / mabey Win & will be better
[10:11] JayR Cela: win7
[10:11] Infinity Linden: i determine if it comes from a machine controlled by an entity with which i have a legal agreement indicating they promise to exercise due care in the manipulation of that object and honor permissions metadata
[10:11] JayR Cela: so we see what happens there
[10:13] Zha Ewry: And so. Right, Thats' practically what we do
[10:13] Zha Ewry: And for lots of machines, which share that policy
[10:13] Zha Ewry: you could define a "domain"
[10:13] Infinity Linden: so in the trust model, domains are definitely first class objects
[10:13] Zha Ewry: the question is "so what?"
[10:13] Zha Ewry: I'd argue, the first class thing, is the relationship between trust and the cert
[10:13] JayR Cela: i just think the things i have made here in SL / should be easy to save and transfer
[10:14] Infinity Linden: NO!
[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, but if it is based on presenting a certificate, my client could have certificates form multiple domains.
[10:14] Infinity Linden: absolutely not
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Absolutely yes
[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: I am not IN the domain - I just have the paperwork to use it
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: It's the only thing that's mreaningful
[10:14] Infinity Linden: we are not inventing a protocol to model trust relationship
[10:14] Infinity Linden: unh uh
[10:14] Infinity Linden: i've done it before
[10:14] Infinity Linden: and honestly
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Right, but.. You just defined one
[10:14] JayR Cela: not a big pain in the rear to do
[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: If you ask for my "LL Certificate", and I present it, I am in, right?
[10:14] Infinity Linden: i would really like to finish this protocol in the next 20 years
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Oh, me too
[10:14] Zha Ewry: which is why I'm happy to say
[10:15] Mojito Sorbet: You trusting me does not prevent somebody else trusting me too.
[10:15] Zha Ewry: "Hey, the only thing we have is the services and the policies" Do we need more
[10:15] Infinity Linden: i do not want to have a first class object in the protocol which represents "trust in a certificate"
[10:15] JayR Cela: i just want to take my stuff
[10:15] Mojito Sorbet: That says nothing about whether you and him trust each other
[10:15] Zha Ewry: Tha's not in the protocol Infinity
[10:15] Infinity Linden: we do not need to communicate information about trust in the protoocl
[10:15] Zha Ewry: its in your policy
[10:15] Infinity Linden: that's what X.509 and bits of PKIX are for
[10:15] Zha Ewry: Thep oint being that
[10:15] Zha Ewry: The protocol has no domain in that exchange
[10:16] Zha Ewry: You have a service
[10:16] Zha Ewry: collection of servcies which share a policy
[10:16] Infinity Linden: fine. you call it a service. i'll call it a domain
[10:16] Infinity Linden: but honestly. i think domain is more appropriate.
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Trust domains do not work for the worlds tourist use case using the VWRAP multi-world deployment pattern, so at best they'll be used VPN-style for corp use.
[10:16] JayR Cela: so the protocal is the problem?
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: Here is an example. The account info I use to log onto SL is the same info UI use to connect to XStreet.
[10:16] Infinity Linden: "service" is a collection of systems that perform a function on behalf of the user
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: Yet the protocols involved have little to do with each other, and are different endpoints
[10:17] Zha Ewry: So.. let me be more formal:
[10:17] Zha Ewry: You have a collection of servcie endopints which apply a single policy based on being in a single adminsitrative domain
[10:17] Mojito Sorbet: Both are in the same "domain" clearly. But they are idfferent services. The only thing visible in the protocol that might tie them tiogether is that sometimes the string "Linden Labs" goes by.
[10:17] Zha Ewry: But... the only manifestation anyone sees is that they share the policy
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: yes
[10:18] Zha Ewry: So.. the question "Can I access this sim"
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Isn't answered by a domain, it's answered by a service end point applying policy
[10:18] Zha Ewry: That's fine and may be allt hat shows up in the spec
[10:19] Infinity Linden: @mojito. i _think_ i agree with what you're saying
[10:19] Zha Ewry: The problem is as soon we say domain, without a functional definition
[10:19] Zha Ewry: we end up with a pile of assumptions which everyone makes differnetly
[10:19] Zha Ewry: and.. we end up with confusion
[10:19] Infinity Linden: the thing is, i thought we were using the term "service" to define a group of related functions, and the protocol endpoints that implement them
[10:19] Infinity Linden: now you want to change that
[10:19] Zha Ewry: No
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: *Administrative* domain seems like a safe name for it
[10:19] Zha Ewry: Is houdl have been cleaerer on the list
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: Just be sure you always put the "administrative" in there
[10:19] Zha Ewry: So.. The right phrase is probably
[10:20] JayR Cela: i just want to be able to save my stuff
[10:20] Zha Ewry: the only place we enforce policy is at servcie endopints, and the only way in which a "domain" manifests is that we end up with lots of service endpoints which share a set of policies
[10:20] JayR Cela: what is so fricking hard about that
[10:20] Zha Ewry: In paractice
[10:20] Zha Ewry: those places
[10:20] Zha Ewry: map nicely onto many deployments
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it'll get even hairier when single asset services turn into sets of services as a result of travellers from multiple worlds converging in a tourist world. The idea of agent domains as policy sets then becomes so loose as to be largely meaningless, except as authority over agent authentication.
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Service Endpoints, which hold an authetnication policy
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: So I agree, it's all about service endpoints.
[10:21] JayR Cela: this is silly
[10:21] Zha Ewry: That's the collapsed case of an agent domain
[10:21] Zha Ewry: And
[10:21] Mojito Sorbet: All standards work is silly, until you see the resulting products (years later)
[10:21] Zha Ewry: And, lors of regions
[10:21] Zha Ewry: and some services
[10:22] Zha Ewry: are goign to be in multiple or non domains, dependingo n how you think about it
[10:22] Zha Ewry: *no
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Tourist regions
[10:22] Zha Ewry: if by which you mean
[10:22] JayR Cela: we sould goto a viewer client
[10:22] Infinity Linden: okay. which definition of the term "service" are you using here? "the collection of protocol endpoints thatimplement related functions" or the "collection of systems under the control of a single administrative entity?"
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. Very much along the lines of the Cable Beach model in fact. The service endpoints hold the access policies, of whatever kind.
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Regions which talk to lots of other servcies
[10:22] JayR Cela: Mozilla
[10:22] JayR Cela: or Opera
[10:22] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Lets take this in turn
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Service Endpoints (URIs) with a specific capability behind them
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Services as clusters of Service Endpoints, effecting a service (regoin, Asset Server, Etc)
[10:23] Infinity Linden: no.
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Domano?
[10:23] Zha Ewry: err.
[10:24] Zha Ewry: No?
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Sevice as?
[10:24] Infinity Linden: you used the term "service" before to define a collection of systems under the control of an administrative entity?
[10:24] Zha Ewry: I did not
[10:24] JayR Cela: ya know the only reason i am here in SL is my partnership
[10:24] Infinity Linden: then what is our new term for what we used to call a domain?
[10:24] Mojito Sorbet: "systems" suggests hardware.. lLets leave them out of this
[10:24] Zha Ewry: So.. Right
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Lets walk this
[10:24] Infinity Linden: no. domains are important for discussing where content can migrate
[10:24] JayR Cela: i understand that this is conmpicate
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: There is nothing defining a collection of systems. Systems are not part of the lexicon.
[10:25] Infinity Linden: it also gives other domains the ability to denote trust relationships internally
[10:25] Zha Ewry: End points (which have policies) they tenf to be aggregate dinto services (collections which effect a service) Which is mudy as heck int he current specs
[10:25] Infinity Linden: think of the domain name as a key for policy lookups
[10:25] Zha Ewry: Then you have memebership
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: You can't look up policies
[10:25] Infinity Linden: membership in the what? the sapir?
[10:25] Zha Ewry: either
[10:26] Infinity Linden: i dno't understand why we can't use the term "domain"
[10:26] Infinity Linden: for it's common definition
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Because a) there isn't ONE
[10:26] Zha Ewry: and b) we don't use it consistently
[10:26] Infinity Linden: hen maybe we should use it consistently
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Which is why we keep tripping up on it in the policy discussions
[10:26] Zha Ewry: This this discussion
[10:27] Infinity Linden: the term "domain" is used extensively in the documentation
[10:27] Zha Ewry: *Thus this discussion
[10:27] Zha Ewry: it is
[10:27] Infinity Linden: i really don't feel like pitching our existing docs
[10:27] JayR Cela: grrr
[10:27] Rex Cronon: mype sapir was a badly chosen word. it might be better if it defined function. right now it doesn
[10:27] Infinity Linden: and starting from scratch
[10:27] Rex Cronon: it doesn't mean anything
[10:27] Infinity Linden: okay. i have to get back to work.
[10:27] Infinity Linden: cheers, all
[10:27] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:27] Zha Ewry: I'm not suggestion that, but. I am sugesting it needs to be formally defined and it needs to actually be used consistently
[10:27] Liandra Ceawlin: Wow......
[10:27] JayR Cela: dang it
[10:28] JayR Cela: all i do is cause trouble
[10:28] Liandra Ceawlin: Lol, I don't think you're the one trying to cause trouble.
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: Only one person was causing trouble here, and I'm surprised she always comes in to mess up Groupies meetings.
[10:28] JayR Cela: i get upset / and speal my mind
[10:29] Liandra Ceawlin: Offtopic, so sorry, but there's better export code in the emerald trunk. I expect that next release, you'll be able to export your stuff better.
[10:29] JayR Cela: speak
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Zha, are you writing this stuff up?
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: I'd like to read a post about it.
[10:29] Zha Ewry: I'm going to post one
[10:29] Zha Ewry: On the mailing list
[10:29] Rex Cronon: morgane.do u mean infinity:)
[10:30] JayR Cela: i just get mad
[10:30] JayR Cela: no big deal
[10:31] JayR Cela: i sit with Sai
[10:31] Zha Ewry: What I'm seing, is that the term has become so watered down it just confuses people
[10:31] JayR Cela: he will protect me
[10:31] Morgaine Dinova: I'm interested in some dynamic properties of this issue. For example, if I login and obtains caps to services, and those services change, how do the new caps get obtained for me to access the new services (eg. new assets providers, new regions)
[10:31] Zha Ewry: that, in theory, woudl be
[10:31] Zha Ewry: The host expires the caps and you get a 40x
[10:32] Zha Ewry: and re re-request them
[10:32] JayR Cela: Zha you are a lot smarter tan me
[10:32] Zha Ewry: re-request
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: I don't want to wait for caps expiry. A new region connects, I need to get right in
[10:32] Zha Ewry: No no
[10:32] Zha Ewry: So, someone adds a new thing, that's unclear
[10:33] Zha Ewry: but if the services change under you
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Its easy
[10:33] JayR Cela: and I love you / we just dissagee
[10:33] Zha Ewry: So, for a new resource
[10:33] Zha Ewry: someone deploys a new sim?
[10:33] Zha Ewry: or a new asset server
[10:33] Zha Ewry: I think the question is
[10:34] Zha Ewry: "So, how do I find out about it"
[10:34] Zha Ewry: You don't have a list of all the sims you know about at login
[10:34] Zha Ewry: You presumably have LMs in your inventory
[10:34] Zha Ewry: which have URIs to some
[10:34] Zha Ewry: some can pass you a SLURL
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Consider the metaverse ... thousands of regions are likely to be attaching and reattaching every second, so it's the regions that need to push their presence out, not wait for caps timeouts
[10:34] JayR Cela: Sai / i had closed hed injury 4 yeas ago
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Not waiting for any caps timeout there Morgaine
[10:35] Zha Ewry: But you didn't ASK that question
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Heh
[10:35] Zha Ewry: You said if I login and obtain caps to a service and they change
[10:35] JayR Cela: simetimes i dont think right
[10:35] Zha Ewry: so...
[10:35] Zha Ewry: as far as I can see
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Regions don't come and go or register at all
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Not in anys ense we care about
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Fair enough, but it's a generic question. I will exist permanent in the metaverse, authenticating my agent only once and that'll be persistent. Everything else needs to be dynamic.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: A region is giong to be defined by its URI
[10:36] Zha Ewry: (The URI from whence you do the first request to talk to it)
[10:36] Zha Ewry: So, if someone hands you that URI, just like a link in the web
[10:36] Zha Ewry: you feed it into the machinery and it works
[10:37] Zha Ewry: (or fails)
[10:37] Zha Ewry: So.. if I spin up a new region
[10:37] Zha Ewry: At the end of that process, I have a URI\
[10:37] JayR Cela: oh i love u
[10:37] Liandra Ceawlin: I am sorry if I am being ignorant or derailing the topic, but personally, I kind of feel like the whole "grid" paradigm is a little flawed anyway. I mean, look at the mess that the mainland is. While I do think that joining several simulators into a larger landmass is needed, I personally think it would be nicer if it were structured like a cloud of pocket universes, linked together nonphysically ala hypergrid, sorta. But Iunno. >_> Maybe that's beyond the scope of this discussion. >_>
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's a model I like. The model where I first have to sign over my firstborn in a blood cont
[10:37] JayR Cela: as my frirnd
[10:37] Zha Ewry: I pass that URI to various search/lookup servcies, or they evtjaully spider it
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's a model I like. The model where I first have to sign over my firstborn in a blood contract I don't :P
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Someone gets that URI and most likely its in a "land mark"
[10:38] Zha Ewry: which I click on in my client
[10:38] JayR Cela: i not right in the head some tomr
[10:38] Zha Ewry: and.. my Client passes it up to my Agent Domain
[10:38] Zha Ewry: (well
[10:38] JayR Cela: time
[10:38] Zha Ewry: to the service endpoint doing auth and such for me)
[10:38] Zha Ewry: It does a "request seedcap" on it
[10:38] Zha Ewry: At THAT point, policy kicks in
[10:39] Zha Ewry: the region may say "Hah, you haven't talked to the leoplueridon, no seedcap for you"
[10:39] Liandra Ceawlin: Is that sort of architecture doable with the design that y'all are working on?
[10:39] Zha Ewry: I sure as hell hope so
[10:39] JayR Cela: well i just do not allways get it
[10:39] Zha Ewry: So.. the blood of the firstborn
[10:39] Zha Ewry: shows up, in the sense that
[10:40] Zha Ewry: without some magical cookies
[10:40] Zha Ewry: lots of services may not talk to each other
[10:40] Zha Ewry: but.. that's 99% outside the protocol and in the policy
[10:40] JayR Cela: lol
[10:40] Zha Ewry: ( I hope everyone knows the Charlie the Unicorn youtubes, or the whole leopluridon joke is kind of lost)
[10:40] JayR Cela: i will be ok
[10:41] JayR Cela: and i love you
[10:41] Liandra Ceawlin: I'm gonna have to google it after this is done. XD
[10:41] Zha Ewry: No coffee watching them.
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Or pepsi
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Dangerous to keyboards and displays and laptops
[10:41] Liandra Ceawlin: It'll be ok. I have a model M, lol. >_>
[10:41] JayR Cela: yep i loke pepsi
[10:42] JayR Cela: like
[10:42] Zha Ewry: I *think* that domain, in 90% of this, turns out to be "areas of shared policies"
[10:42] JayR Cela: thank you for reminding me
[10:42] Zha Ewry: I just don't want another line posted that says "The Agent Domain decides" or "The Region Domain decides"
[10:42] JayR Cela: *kisss's*
[10:43] JayR Cela: and Sai
[10:43] Mystical Demina: interesting conversation today, take care guys, gtg
[10:43] JayR Cela: i see you soon
[10:43] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:44] JayR Cela: Norgaine I love you
[10:44] JayR Cela: rex i love you too
[10:44] Rex Cronon: u r free 2 llove everybody:)
[10:45] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[10:45] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[10:45] Liandra Ceawlin: I'd better hit the road too. I have clients chasing me around with pitchforks.... Thanks, y'all, and hopefully I'll make it next week. I am pretty interested in learning to grok OGP, lol.
[10:45] JayR Cela: rex you are the most lovable person in the world
[10:46] JayR Cela: well next to Sai and Morgaine
[10:46] Rex Cronon: a man in armor lovable? interesing:)
[10:46] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:47] Rex Cronon: meeting finished
[10:47] Zha Ewry: By exhuastion
[10:47] Rex Cronon: and earlier
[10:47] Zha Ewry: I *think* this is not nearly as hard as Infinity keeps making it out to be
[10:47] Rex Cronon: did zero cancel his oh 4 today?
[10:48] JayR Cela: i dont know
[10:48] Morgaine Dinova: Well I'm not worried about those policy incompatibilities Zha, because I think they'll fall into two categories: business worlds will strongly partitition their spaces for corporate reasons, while metaverse-type worlds will basically have mostly unencumbered access to enable their residents to run all over the worlds, as people like to do.
[10:48] Zha Ewry: I expect about four clusters, but sure
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: So I'm not really worried because I expect that restrictive services will fall by the wayside.
[10:49] Zha Ewry: and I expect for a lot of cases you'll end up having to put on your "travelling shoes"
[10:49] JayR Cela: i do know Sai is my protecter
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, quite a few othe rcategories too, eg. government will be one. But basically, just a few. Because everyone wants interop.
[10:49] Zha Ewry: I expect going lots of places will be easy
[10:49] JayR Cela: so no onw will mess with me
[10:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[10:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[10:50] Rex Cronon: in 2027 zha:)
[10:50] Zha Ewry: I expect that for a long time, in many of those places, you'll have to cope with the vagaries of the shared asset clouds
[10:51] Zha Ewry: There will be some funny boundaries, in both directoins, but that's ok
[10:51] JayR Cela: ibm will figure it out
[10:51] Zha Ewry: and it may mean from time to time, you're outfit will change on the boundray, or you'll be dropped into a transitino zone.
[10:51] JayR Cela: Sai will allways protect me
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, wouldn't be surprised at breakage in the early days. Just like the early web was full of "broken image".
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I'm ok, if when you tp some place
[10:52] Zha Ewry: you get a "You're weating assets I can't access, I'm dropping you into a changing room, please change, and continue your voyage when your'e ready"
[10:52] JayR Cela: Morgaine you crack me up
[10:53] Zha Ewry: And people who travel broadly, will make a point to wear assets which are broadly accesible
[10:53] JayR Cela: you look adorable
[10:54] JayR Cela: tiny little kitty
[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I don't think that'll happen, in practice, because people just won't put up with it.
[10:54] Zha Ewry: Well, as long as the protocol lets us find that out by reality testing, I think we're both happy
[10:54] JayR Cela: you guys are beyond me sometimes
[10:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Lexie Linden: SL Volunteering
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/181/99/30 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[10:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 11:00 AM: Andrew Linden: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: If your VW service provider gives you crap, you choose another It's not like they're your ISP so you're stuck.
[10:55] Rex Cronon: considering how many people put up with sl, there is a chance they would put up with almost anything:)
[10:55] Zha Ewry: I think for some time, you'll end up making choices, based on content, community and affinity to people and places you want to travel
[10:55] Zha Ewry: But
[10:55] Zha Ewry: the protocol goal
[10:56] Zha Ewry: is to let the policy chocies be seperate from the protocol
[10:56] JayR Cela: and REX you are the bonmb
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: only because there is no choice currently. The pressure for choice is so immense that many people are moving to Opensim despite the high flakiness of alpha code. So people wanna move.
[10:56] JayR Cela: bomb
[10:56] Zha Ewry: And we find out what happens when people actually deploy worlds
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah. Gonna be interesting
[10:56] JayR Cela: total koolness
[10:57] Rex Cronon: i am going to blow up any second now. get in a bunker:)
[10:57] Zha Ewry: Well, there's been a steady two way flow of late. Some projects out to the OpenSims, and some projects back to Linden grid, because of content and users
[10:57] JayR Cela: i just want my stuff
[10:58] JayR Cela: and make it easy
[10:58] Rex Cronon: this"protocol" shouldn't have taken more than 6 months
[10:59] JayR Cela: i only here because i love cathy
[10:59] Rex Cronon: it seems that there are lots of "details" that r slowing things down
[10:59] Zha Ewry: OKies, onward and upwards
[10:59] JayR Cela: if not for her
[10:59] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:59] Zha Ewry: See people at Zero'soffice hours if he holds any.. or next week
[10:59] JayR Cela: i be gone in a second

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-06

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