Open Source Meeting/2008-03-06

[14:01] Rob Linden: howdy from the new (er, revised) Seattle office
[14:01] Squirrel Wood: Yay for revisions!
[14:01] Analog Nihilist: It's as legit as anything on SL can be.
[14:01] Rob Linden: Seattle office, Mark II
[14:02] Analog Nihilist: tries to avoid talking about Ginko.
[14:02] Analog Nihilist: fails.
[14:02] Squirrel Wood: Has your furniture been upgraded and gotten new version numbers? ^^
[14:02] Shirley Marquez: Off-topic -- Ginko isn't open source
[14:02] Analog Nihilist: Ahhh. True.
[14:02] Squirrel Wood: Mmm. Open Sauce ^^
[14:03] Shirley Marquez: Ginkowas more of an open drain LOL
[14:03] Analog Nihilist: What's this I've heard about MONO support in SL?
[14:04] Rob Linden: Agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:04] Gigs Taggart: LSL mono is on the beta grid now.
[14:04] Analog Nihilist: Thank you Gigs, Rob.
[14:05] Yuu Nakamichi: <3 Soft for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-975
[14:05] Rob Linden: first item: Lightweight SL client for OLPC XO. User:Grampy Weatherwax
[14:06] Rob Linden: I meant to ping Grampy about this....would have been better to talk on sldev first
[14:06] Rob Linden: iirc, the topic has been raised on sldev before
[14:06] Rob Linden: is grampy here?
[14:06] Rob Linden: Is anyone else here because they wanted to talk about this?
[14:07] Seg Baphomet: I want to know if its based off slviewer or what.
[14:07] Seg Baphomet: It could use some de-bloating.
[14:08] Rob Linden: I think the agenda item is a request rather than an advertisement
[14:08] Gigs Taggart: no 3d hardware. They are going to have to do more than debloat.
[14:08] Soft Linden: (Haa, thanks Yuu :)
[14:08] Seg Baphomet: Yeah, new graphics engine and some debloating...
[14:08] Seg Baphomet: j2k decode will be real fun on that hardware.
[14:08] Carjay McGinnis: no 3D? that's ... tough
[14:09] Rob Linden: Gigs: yeah, there's some serious work/rethinking that would need to be done to even come up with something passable
[14:09] Shirley Marquez: but it could lead to a viewer that would be useful in other lightweight settings like cell phones
[14:09] Rob Linden: it's a worthy problem to come up with something that works there
[14:09] Analog Nihilist: The video is the Geode chipset.
[14:09] Gigs Taggart: I think it would be a better endeavor to question whether to even attempt that :P
[14:09] Carjay McGinnis: there are 3d chips for cell phones
[14:09] Rob Linden: ...but I think we should take this to the list
[14:09] Gigs Taggart: yes
[14:09] Seg Baphomet: Second Life on Xbox/PS3
[14:10] Seg Baphomet: A pet idea of mine.
[14:10] Squirrel Wood: It could eventually work if some sort of isometric 2.5d view is used
[14:10] Seg Baphomet: PS3 'only' has 256mb.
[14:10] Carjay McGinnis: ah, good old 8-bit 3D
[14:10] Analog Nihilist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geode_%28processor%29
[14:10] Shirley Marquez: neither of those platforms has an OpenGL implementation, so it would take a lot of new code
[14:10] Seg Baphomet: Original Xbox has... 64mb.
[14:11] Squirrel Wood: cell phones can actually deliver good 3d graphics...
[14:11] Seg Baphomet: PS3 is OpenGL ES based.
[14:11] Shirley Marquez: really, Seg? Might not be impossible then
[14:11] Seg Baphomet: Apparently people have figured out how to work around the lockout on PS3
[14:11] Rob Linden: let's move on unless anyone strongly objects
[14:11] Gigs Taggart: I second moving on
[14:12] Rob Linden: next up: updates from the Lindens
[14:12] Seg Baphomet: So we can get DRI on PS3 linux.
[14:12] Squirrel Wood: (3d engine with texturing and lighting on cell phones - http://www.theprodukkt.com/downloads/theprodukkt_mobilepreview_divx.avi)
[14:12] Rob Linden: this was something that Gigs requested over IRC
[14:12] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, demoscene
[14:12] Carjay McGinnis: what kind of updates?
[14:12] Liana Linden: What kind of updates are you looking for?
[14:12] Liana Linden: ah, jinx
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: Oh
[14:13] Rob Linden: well.....just what the Lindens here are working on (that we can talk about)
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: I feel like we aren't in touch as much since rob/liana went to this discussion format vs a normal office hour
[14:13] Poppy Linden: dpo (still)
[14:13] Rob Linden: a lot of what Liana and I are both focused on is open source strategy...inward facing stuff
[14:14] Liana Linden: I'm also project managing the CMake project
[14:14] Poppy Linden: Yeah, that's what my whole show and tell time is aiming for, i'm just slow on the draw
[14:14] Poppy Linden: "my"
[14:14] Poppy Linden: lol :)
[14:14] Gigs Taggart: Poppy wasn't that supposed to be more resident focused?
[14:14] Rob Linden: Linden Lab is place that's more overtly based on persuasion than most places....
[14:14] Poppy Linden: *your* :)
[14:14] Seg Baphomet: Farbrausch are gods.
[14:15] Poppy Linden: Gigs - yes, generally discussion focused.
[14:15] Rob Linden: ... and we've hired a lot of new people over the past year
[14:15] Liana Linden: I'm also working on outreach - i.e., what meetups and conferences we should be at to grow the oss program
[14:15] Liana Linden: PM-ing AWG, too.
[14:15] Gigs Taggart: Does AWG2 have goals or an agenda yet?
[14:16] Rob Linden: ....so, it's become apparent that there's a lot of best practices and general buy-in work that we need to really get everyone feeling good about developing in the sandbox
[14:16] Analog Nihilist: Liana, maybe putting a link on the Second Life front page would help?
[14:16] Liana Linden: shrugs. You probably wanted to hear from the devs though. ;-)
[14:16] Liana Linden: Analog, what kind of link?
[14:16] Analog Nihilist: Maybe stick the link in the 'Community' section?
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: I don't think we need a lot of ..... "governance policy" crap tying up the AWG.
[14:17] Analog Nihilist: Well, putting a link to a list of meetings, information about getting involved or the like.
[14:17] Rob Linden: re: AWG. that reminds me....I think it's probably worthy of being promoted to a portal on the front page
[14:17] Liana Linden: A link to what? The AWG? Conferences we're attending?
[14:17] Liana Linden: Er. Gotcha, Analog.
[14:17] Seg Baphomet: Finding most anything I actually want off the front page is nearly impossible.
[14:17] Analog Nihilist: That'd be a start. Although just having a link of some sort to make people even aware that it exists is a start.
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: Seg well they did that stupid SL Grid site which messed everything up :P
[14:17] Analog Nihilist: I agree with Seg.
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: They are working on fixing that, so I've been told.
[14:18] Liana Linden: Gigs, AWGs most pressing goals are documentation and implementation.
[14:18] Rob Linden: Seg: are you referring to secondlifegrid.net or wiki.secondlife.com or secondlife.com?
[14:18] Seg Baphomet: secondlife.com
[14:18] Analog Nihilist: Apropos documentation, I've found that the offsite LSL wikis are much more responsive than the official one.
[14:19] Seg Baphomet: If you're not logged in, a lot of stuff seems rather hidden.
[14:19] Gigs Taggart: responsive?
[14:19] Analog Nihilist: Although that may only be my experience. Has anyone else experienced such wiki performance issues?
[14:19] Seg Baphomet: Like viewer download. Or official system requirements.
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: Yeah, that part sucks. You have to log out to get menus to get to the important stuff.
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: The logged out page sould just be fore everyone I think.
[14:20] Analog Nihilist: Just getting the pages to display at all sometimes requires that I wait 30 to 90 seconds, for some reason.
[14:20] Seg Baphomet: And how many clicks to get to the source code...
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: anyway I think we've digressed again
[14:21] Poppy Linden: Web performance on sl.com this week has been beaten up by DPO testing
[14:21] Carjay McGinnis: sounds like a new benchmark, "clicks to reach sourcecode"
[14:21] Poppy Linden: (sorry about that)
[14:21] Analog Nihilist: But a page with some basic information, such as meeting places, a list of contacts and current projects might be a good starting point.
[14:21] Poppy Linden: but not the wiki or jira
[14:22] Liana Linden: Analog: noted. thanks.
[14:22] Gigs Taggart: poppy what's DPO?
[14:22] Seg Baphomet: How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of slviewer...
[14:22] Analog Nihilist: You're welcome.
[14:22] Analog Nihilist: Three.
[14:22] Poppy Linden: dataserver phase out, it's internally facing, so it's one of those things hopefully you won't notice
[14:23] Gigs Taggart: Like the distributed group IMs right? :P
[14:23] Gigs Taggart: takes the cheap shot
[14:23] Poppy Linden: dude, take the cheap shot
[14:24] Gigs Taggart: :)
[14:24] Poppy Linden: it *is* somewhat like that, it's a decentralization project
[14:24] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[14:24] Gigs Taggart: I figured
[14:24] Gigs Taggart: I hate to insult and run but I really gotta go afk
[14:24] Poppy Linden: is finding SLwiki links about dataserver, can't find any...
[14:24] Seg Baphomet: Does group chat ever work anymore?
[14:24] Gigs Taggart: bbl
[14:24] Squirrel Wood: Will that simplify notecard reading and stuff?
[14:25] Poppy Linden: ok gigs
[14:26] Poppy Linden: Squirrel, as far as the viewer is concerned, nothing changes
[14:27] Poppy Linden: oh, this is confusing, i'm not even familiar with the notecard "dataserver" terminology
[14:27] Analog Nihilist: Maybe avoiding using too many obscure acronyms would help?
[14:27] Seg Baphomet: I gotsta go too.
[14:27] Poppy Linden: i'm not sure how much info about our internal infrastructure is public, so I'm checking
[14:27] Poppy Linden: i'm not sure this is something that's out there, so I'm looking to give a good background link
[14:29] Liana Linden: While Poppy's wiki mining, can I give my AWG update and ask a question? Well, another question after that one.
[14:29] Poppy Linden: aha!
[14:29] Poppy Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_architecture
[14:29] Poppy Linden: the dataserver is the thing that hits "the" db
[14:30] Poppy Linden: so you can imagine 5k machines pounding one mysql instance.
[14:30] Poppy Linden: we're making a web service interface to the DB
[14:31] Squirrel Wood: ah
[14:32] Analog Nihilist: What will that mean to us mortal end users?
[14:32] Squirrel Wood: 15k scripts reading random lines from random notecards simultaneously will make the dataserver go Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! ?
[14:33] Poppy Linden: Analog, hopefully it means SL becomes more reliable and scalable
[14:34] Poppy Linden: our website already uses this interface, and we just started enabling it on some sims
[14:34] Poppy Linden: naturally, the website was a little less responsive with the increased load >:D
[14:34] Analog Nihilist: Yay load! Gives those lazy servers something to do.
[14:34] Poppy Linden: heh
[14:35] Poppy Linden: our servers are hardly bored >:D
[14:35] Squirrel Wood: Any server running below 150% CPU load is not busy :p
[14:35] Poppy Linden: it's actually quite difficult to find a machine that isn't down or has a load less than 1
[14:36] Poppy Linden: anyway, that's my update I guess?
[14:36] Poppy Linden: shame gigs isn't around, but i imagine there will be a transcript
[14:36] Poppy Linden: sorry for hogging the time too :\
[14:36] Rob Linden: quite alright
[14:37] Rob Linden: I'm personally dealing with a lot of onesy-twosy things, so it's hard to just start listing them here
[14:38] Rob Linden: ...but I'm open to questions, or we can move on
[14:38] Rob Linden: next up is an AWG update
[14:38] Poppy Linden: soft?
[14:39] Rob Linden: we seem to have lost soft
[14:39] Liana Linden: AWG: Lots of RSVPs coming in. Documents from Zero going out to the list soon.
[14:39] Liana Linden: I've had a couple of people ask me about rescheduling due to a conflict with the Life2.0 conference,
[14:39] Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWG
[14:40] Liana Linden: but at this point I'm not planning on rescheduling.
[14:40] Liana Linden: You can email me if you want to talk about that more.
[14:40] Liana Linden: Any questions?
[14:41] Analog Nihilist: Thinking...
[14:42] Rob Linden: we're at the end of the scheduled agenda
[14:42] Poppy Linden: Squirrel, i don't see enough duct tape in that photo for it to be ours :P
[14:43] Analog Nihilist: Needs more baling wire.
[14:43] Rob Linden: Aimee, Gigs and everyone that's helped, thanks for working on the wind noise patch
[14:43] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[14:43] Analog Nihilist: Actually... How does one get rid of the wind noise?
[14:43] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[14:43] Analog Nihilist: I've had a lot of people ask me that.
[14:44] Liana Linden: Preferences.
[14:44] Aimee Trescothick: turn down the ambient slider
[14:44] Poppy Linden: Thanks gigs and aimee!
[14:44] Yuu Nakamichi: I liked the sound files on sldev :)
[14:44] Aimee Trescothick: ^^
[14:44] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[14:44] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[14:45] Yuu Nakamichi: hilarious
[14:45] Rob Linden: here's what I'm talking about for those that might not be aware: VWR-5308
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: I was recording those thinking, "I can believe I'm sat here actually recording synthetic wind"
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[14:45] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5308
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: multimegs of filtered pink noise
[14:45] Analog Nihilist: Wind noise patch?
[14:45] Analog Nihilist: So... wind was broken?
[14:46] Aimee Trescothick: flying up and down, my partner wondered what the hell I was doing
[14:46] Rob Linden: Gigs figured out that wind noise generation is taking a lot of CPU (6% on his machine), and got a conversation going on reducing that greatly
[14:46] Aimee Trescothick: well, just horribly inefficient
[14:47] Rob Linden: yar yar Analog
[14:47] Analog Nihilist: Breaking wind, highly inefficient.
[14:47] Aimee Trescothick: LOL
[14:47] Analog Nihilist: Oh.
[14:47] Carjay McGinnis: the wind topic was an interesting read
[14:47] Carjay McGinnis: on sldev
[14:47] Yuu Nakamichi: will this be reflected in actual performace gains?
[14:47] Analog Nihilist: When I crouch and walk forward a bit, if I hold down crouch, then... something... weird happens.
[14:47] Rob Linden: Yuu....hope so
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: well, I haven't benchmarked, but Gigs has seen some nice improvements
[14:48] Yuu Nakamichi: shouts: wow aimee - 1.7% :)
[14:48] Carjay McGinnis: the avatar is jumping back and forth?
[14:49] Analog Nihilist: Indeed. It flickers back and forth.
[14:49] Carjay McGinnis: always in increasing steps
[14:49] Carjay McGinnis: right, I noticed that, too
[14:49] Analog Nihilist: Yuss.
[14:49] Squirrel Wood: it has been doing that for at least the past two years
[14:49] Carjay McGinnis: lol, but it's such a weird combination, I always wanted to check
[14:49] Aimee Trescothick: down to between 1.0 and 1.3% at the last check
[14:49] Aimee Trescothick: and the latest version should be even better
[14:50] Carjay McGinnis: cool
[14:51] Squirrel Wood: (not flying :p)
[14:51] Analog Nihilist: Indeed, that was the bug I was referring to, Squirrel.
[14:51] Rob Linden: I've seen people demo it before, but I don't recall if anyone has actually filed something in jira yet for the bug that Squirrel is demoing
[14:52] Carjay McGinnis: I didn't know you could see it
[14:52] Squirrel Wood: you can
[14:52] Carjay McGinnis: I thought it was only happening on the client side
[14:52] Analog Nihilist: I've heard that people have, and then just gave up.
[14:52] Squirrel Wood: easy repro too
[14:52] Carjay McGinnis: even the name tag disappears
[14:52] Analog Nihilist: Yuss.
[14:52] Squirrel Wood: crouch, walk, stop and keep crouching
[14:53] Poppy Linden: ttyl folks, until next time!
[14:53] Aimee Trescothick: bye :)
[14:53] Squirrel Wood: cya
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: bye Poppy, see you
[14:53] Analog Nihilist: Bye.
[14:53] Liana Linden: I gotta get moving too. Ciao.
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: bye Liana
[14:53] Rob Linden: yup....we should wrap up
[14:54] Carjay McGinnis: still see you listed 6m away from me though
[14:54] Carjay McGinnis: hm, still see you in the same spot, Aimee
[14:54] Rob Linden: anything else before I had out?
[14:55] Aimee Trescothick: hmm, gonna look like some weird cult meeting if we all start doing it :o
[14:55] Aimee Trescothick: lol
[14:55] Carjay McGinnis: lol
[14:55] Rob Linden: k....see you all later!
[14:56] Aimee Trescothick: bye rob :)
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: bye Rob, thanks
[14:56] Rob Linden: thanks everyone for coming
[14:56] Yuu Nakamichi: bye rob :)

Open Source Meeting/2008-03-06

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