User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-02-28

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	WindLight has been merged into release branch, so a future Release Candidate not longer than a month away should have Dazzle according to Torley
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	say "ohhh yeah" again, while I get my synth
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	I thought time dilation of 1 was the ideal?
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	!
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahahahhaa
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted suspects trucker hats
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	so what's everyone think of dazzle?
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Dazzle-icious!
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	well ben posted on the sldev list so i'm sure he'lll make it
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted wants vacation pics
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	aha!
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	speak of the devil. Ahoy :)
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	There they are :D
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello ^^
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I hope I'm not the devil now :-)
[15:05]	Jason Swain:	Hello Ben and Malbers ^^
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	fashionably late ^^
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	hey all
[15:06]	Simon Kline:	hewwo
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	yes sorry, a meeting ran over
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	hi all
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	I hope your vacation was fantastic ^^
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hellooooo
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Squirrel, yes it was a lot of fun
[15:06]	Jason Swain:	AHH!!!!
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	nice!
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:07]	Simon Kline:	that's not something that happens evey day heh
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	that's true!
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	but at least Dazzle got shipped while I was out!
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	I suppose when you have a craving for condor eggs..
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	if I cam just right you have horns :)
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	I nearly got blown off a mountain in patagonia
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	there's been a wide mix of feedback, as I'm sure we all imagined there would be
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	has everyone here had a chance to use it?
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted is using it right now
[15:08]	Second Life:	Region restarting for maintenance in 5 minutes. You will be logged out at the restart if you remain in-region.
[15:08]	Simon Kline nods.... it's very perdy
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep. I'm getting my Dazzle on as we speak
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Good timing Ben
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	WindLight has been merged into release branch, so a future Release Candidate not longer than a month away should have Dazzle according to Torley :)
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	oh brilliant
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	:P
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh boo
[15:08]	Jason Swain:	epps
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ooh, well-timed region restart
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's correct Squirrel
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	W00t ^^
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	and I hope we can re-release the dazzle first look with windlight
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	convergence!
[15:09]	Simon Kline:	just testing our browsers for tp abilit
[15:09]	Jason Swain:	Its a shame that Windlight and Dazzel are not together
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ok
[15:09]	Simon Kline:	ohh nice that should be awesome..
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	time to fly south for the time being I guess
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	let's chat until the restart and then regroup here when the region comes back up
[15:09]	Jason Swain:	I might not be able to log back on the last time I tried I had DNS errors
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	Jason, you may want to TP away and come back then
[15:10]	Second Life:	Region restarting for maintenance in 3 minutes. You will be logged out at the restart if you remain in-region.
[15:10]	Jason Swain:	ok ^^
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm just gonna fly south
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	in the meantime, do folks want to share feedback on dazzle?
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	: waits for the windlighted Dazzle ^^
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been really loving it thus far. I wou8ld say my only major issue with it is it's too monochromatic for me
[15:11]	Rheta Shan:	Well, um, I'm kind of on record for disliking it intensely :)
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Rheta
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	it's ok to not like it :-)
[15:11]	Rheta Shan:	Hello Benjamin. Hiya everybody.
[15:11]	Simon Kline:	it's all round great for me, i was smiling wide clicking all the new perdy buttons
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Aliceinwire
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	for example buttons that were colored like the ((.)) are blue
[15:11]	Simon Kline:	hi alice :D
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	glad you like Simon
[15:11]	aliceinwire Bleac:	hello ^^
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	Rheta, when you say on the record, is that in pjira?
[15:12]	Simon Kline:	from a bug point of view i think it had the same probs as rc3 right?
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Much improved over the earlier Dazzle, I think. Especially the chat history background color, hehe
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	oh you had the flickr review!
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:12]	Second Life:	Region restarting for maintenance in 1 minutes. You will be logged out at the restart if you remain in-region.
[15:12]	Rheta Shan:	No, on my blog,a nd I did a Flickr stream with my findings… somewhat jocular, I fear.
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I remember
[15:12]	Simon Kline:	which are now mostly fixed
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	rheta, anything specific that makes you unhappy about Dazzle or just the overall appearance?
[15:12]	Simon Kline:	i might tp away
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh yes; I'm liking the solid background
[15:12]	Simon Kline:	brb
[15:12]	Second Life:	Region restarting for maintenance in 30 seconds. You will be logged out at the restart if you remain in-region.
[15:12]	Rheta Shan:	The brightness is major flaw of the design.
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	ok let's just regroup in five minutes
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Gonna fly south, be back soon
[15:19]	Simon Kline:	we survived the restart!! i so gotta make t-shirts that say that
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	WooT WooT
[15:20]	Rheta Shan:	Hey everybody :)
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	world slowly rezzing...
[15:20]	Rheta Shan:	LOL, yes
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Rheta :D
[15:20]	Yeti Bing:	lol good idea!
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	oops I forgot to save the chat transcript, darnit
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	wb all
[15:20]	Jason Swain:	Thanks Squirrel ^^
[15:20]	Yeti Bing:	hi all!
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'll hook you up, Ben
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Jacek
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	Alice, your av is adorable!
[15:21]	aliceinwire Bleac:	oh thanks you ^^
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	I like Yeti's too
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	It is purple and bear and smells like Invisiprims ^^
[15:21]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i gift it to you at the end of the contest the 1 march
[15:21]	Yeti Bing:	thanks, Benjamin!
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	Ok, let's jump back into it
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	Rheta was sharing her thoughts about Dazzle
[15:21]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	and the overall brightness level
[15:21]	aliceinwire Bleac:	a japan tiny avatar contest
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/02/28/new-viewer-second-life-1190-viewer-now-available/
[15:22]	Rheta Shan:	Um, yes.
[15:22]	Rheta Shan:	I think teh brightness of the interface actually makes things worse.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli gave you 2008-02-28 UI office hour partial chat log.
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for the transcript Jacek
[15:22]	Rheta Shan:	It lessen teh tranparency effect. Bright is obstructive, psychologically, when it comes to the idea of transparency.
[15:23]	Rheta Shan:	Plus it makes the cons hard to see and tends to smear.
[15:23]	Rheta Shan:	*icons*
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	I agree there. I think the brightness distracts from what's going on in the world
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	which icons, Rheta?
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	is it brightness, or lack of contrast that's the most jarring?
[15:23]	Rheta Shan:	The interface icons. It'sm most noticeable in the build window.
[15:23]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i have a question "linden lab is really making a light viewer of secondlife like a messanger version ?
[15:24]	Rheta Shan:	With the icons ? lack of contrast.
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	I've gotten lots of varying feedback on the color scheme. Some folks don't like the brighter colors but others say the less garish colors are actually *less* distracting
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	which icons, Rheta?
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	oh sorry, interface
[15:24]	Rheta Shan:	Yes, the old UI is garish, but it is also unobtrusive
[15:24]	Rheta Shan:	The enw is pretty and obtrusive.
[15:24]	Rheta Shan:	*nw*
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	where did you read that Alice?
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5162
[15:25]	aliceinwire Bleac:	mmm i don't remember on my travel on the web
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	you might want to vote on that then or add to it
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	I would love a LL messenger version
[15:25]	aliceinwire Bleac:	a messaner version but make it really good
[15:25]	Simon Kline:	i think it was in Phil Linden's interview he mentioned that and HTML on a cube hopefully coming Q1 this year
[15:25]	aliceinwire Bleac:	with everything
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	have you gotten any feedback about the pie menu not being transparrent anymore?
[15:26]	aliceinwire Bleac:	also voice
[15:26]	Rheta Shan:	Yup.
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	there is a lightweight messaging client coming out, but it is being developed by our partner vivox
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	I was making some notes earlier on my impressions of the new Dazzle, and one of the things I noticed was that it's very monochromatic. The icons (e.g. the Mini-Map radar, and the Create tool Cube, Cylinder, etc.) are basically the same hue as the background
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	release and distribution plans haven't been finalized
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	I think that was a surprise: gah! object buried under circle!
[15:26]	Rheta Shan:	Exacly
[15:27]	Rheta Shan:	Both @McCabe and @Jacek
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	yes McCabe there's a bug somewhere about the pie menus
[15:27]	Rheta Shan:	It's still transparent, in fact. Just not much.
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted agrees with jacek on the monochromatic
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	so Jacek, do you think *more* color would be helpful?
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	we were trying to strike a balance between having some color without being too distracting
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree the pie menus need work
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact I have a bug I created for myself to work on that
[15:28]	Rheta Shan nods
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think so, yes. A little bit more value and hue contrast between the background and the icons. Maybe if the icons were tinted orange, or something?
[15:29]	Simon Kline:	once this gets perfected is there plans to make skin options for the UI so people can choose the colours they want
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Jacek, I'll pass that feedback on to the icon artist
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	Simon, eventually the plan is to make the client UI fully skinnable
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	the exact timing of that hasn't been worked out
[15:29]	Rheta Shan:	Eventaully ?
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	it's possible that there will be a period of time where Dazzle is the only skin
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	certain icons tend to blend into dazzle, giving the UI an odd "flat" look, such as the voice.... tab thing... in the lower right
[15:29]	Rheta Shan agrees
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	the Talk button McCabe?
[15:30]	Simon Kline:	fantastic ^^ i understand that will take alot more work but it's great you're heading that path
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we know ultimately one single UI design won't please everyone
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, yes. Right now, the UI is like one big block of brightness glaring at me ^_^
[15:30]	Rheta Shan:	I agree
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	that group of icons, yes. The lock especially feels odd, sort of like it's more background than selectable
[15:31]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i hope vivox make it with the gnu v2
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	speaking of skinning, I was really pleased to see actual names for files instead of UUIDs
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps, just mayhaps you could add in a sort of color wheel where people can select the hue they want? Adapting rgb values shouldn't be much of a problem that way :)
[15:32]	Rheta Shan:	Now that would be a good start.
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	skins should start appearing soon enough
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Squirrel: Hehe, yes. That would be great. Perform some color math like Photoshop does, to change the hue, contrast, brightess
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, using human-readable filenames was a huge step
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	yay, human-readable!
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe :)
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	I can't tell you what a nightmare it's been trying to manage all those art files as UUIDs
[15:32]	aliceinwire Bleac:	you have a contact for talk with vivox people ?
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	Alice, I'm not sure if Vivox has a public contact, I'll find out
[15:33]	aliceinwire Bleac:	thanks you
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	Squirrel, I like that idea of a hue you can select
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	we considered that
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	but the UI currently isn't implemented to support it
[15:33]	aliceinwire Bleac:	for the skin is pretty simple
[15:33]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i want make a article on how to make it
[15:33]	aliceinwire Bleac:	what do you think ?
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	we were working against a number of technical limitations in the UI architecture when creating dazzle
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nods*
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	for making your skin, Alice?
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that would be fantastic!
[15:34]	Rheta Shan:	Which kind of technical limitations ?
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	1€ = 1.5213$
[15:34]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i can use like exemple my skin
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	the thing we need to educate people about is that they can make their own skins today!
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	what sort of limitations were you seeing?
[15:34]	aliceinwire Bleac:	and explain how to make other skin
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	it's just not that easy to switch
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	although really all you have to do is swap out a couple folders
[15:35]	aliceinwire Bleac:	^^
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	it's definitely not a computer novice task, however
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	I once attempted a Dazzle variant, but the UUIDs were hard to manage and I didn't have enough free time. I think I might take another stab at it now
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm... as for the hue.. could that be put in the rendering part of the UI ?
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, it's much easier with real filenames
[15:35]	aliceinwire Bleac:	ok now i have the idea
[15:35]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i go to realize it
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure what that would require squirrel
[15:35]	Simon Kline:	i think that once that process is presented as easy there will be lots of amazing variants of it out there
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Squirrel: My thoughts exactly. Hmm, hmm, hmm. *thoughts filled with ideas*
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	a smart shader program should be all thats needed methinks
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	one of the clean-up tasks for dazzle is to post some documentation
[15:36]	Rheta Shan:	Would if be feasible to offer th eold UI as an option ?
[15:36]	Rheta Shan:	For those among us who realy are not up to getting dazzled all day long ?
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	and to post a list of the technical issues I mentioned, McCabe
[15:36]	Simon Kline:	documention is good ^^ tho not always easy to create as you're making thing thing
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been promising that to Jacek for a while :-)
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[15:37]	Rheta Shan smiles
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted is definitely interested as well
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	Rheta, theoretically it will be possible for you to take the art from an old viewer
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	You did give me that notecard, but I wasn't sure if I was allowed to show it around
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	and simply swap out the dazzle art
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	but there are changes to the way the art is rendered
[15:37]	Simon Kline:	it's really impressive to see not many issues on the jira with dazzle... only 10 open ones at the moment out of about 30 listed for dazzle
[15:37]	aliceinwire Bleac:	yeah i want make a site for dazzle skin
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	it does pixel-level accuracy, for example
[15:37]	Rheta Shan:	Which means no, I take it ?
[15:37]	Rheta Shan:	Aw shucks.
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	the old UI didn't support images that weren't sized in dimensions that are powers of two
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	BeDazzled ^^
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm saying it should be possible, it might just take some work
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	O.o
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Ooh, I just noticed that if you put your mouse over the gaps between the buttons on the bottom toolbar, you can resize them o_O)
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh woah!
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	once we have skinning we will probably offer a "classic" skin, although we haven't ironed out those details yet, so I don't want to promise anything
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	you can! sweet
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	wow Jacek, I didn't realize that
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a new layout control
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm guessing that's an unintended consequence of using the panel_layout thingies?
[15:39]	Simon Kline:	*widens his communicate button*
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	you really should offer the classic skin; it'll make the transition easier and save you guys a LOT of grief
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	I still waiting for an option to use the old pre-voice style UI
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	we probably need to turn off the resizing stuff
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted still uses the classic winamp skin, even
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats why I still using Nick's BE-v
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	nice bug hunting, Jacek!
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	noooo leave it
[15:39]	Rheta Shan:	Once skiinnign is possible, I'm happy, as it will offer choice. It's the time in between I'm worried about :)
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh! Hrm. I have two things about patches.
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	People will still whine and bitch on the blog comments... no matter how much time you give them to test or how many bugs you iron out
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	Rheta, I expect you could get a group of dedicated residents together to build a "classic" skin before we do
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	with Alice's documentation it wouldn't be too hard
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	#1: I have the progress bar screen XUIfied, but I can't seem to get the layout to work the same as the old way, because of...
[15:41]	Rheta Shan:	Yes,,maybe, but as you said, skinning is a furture option. Dazzle will be mandatory for some time.
[15:41]	Rheta Shan:	And I still think it is a major setback in usability.
[15:41]	Rheta Shan:	Though I notice I'm a minority in here :)
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted is just thinking about all the JIRA issues he'll have to resolve if it's mandatory without a classic skin option -_-
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	Rheta, you will be able to swap out the files under the hood even before skinning
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	#2: UI controls don't understand percentages, only pixels. So I was thinking of patching the base UI control class to understand percentages, which would allow me to make the progress bar layout work right
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	the capability is already there, it's just not exposed in the UI
[15:42]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i'm making the article
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, that's fantastic news!
[15:42]	aliceinwire Bleac:	in some day you can see how to make it
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	are you making notes of your work in Jira
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	if so, I could point some developers to your questions
[15:42]	Harleen Gretzky:	Maybe you should offer teh old color XMLs as a patch then
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	No, I haven't gotten anything up on JIRA yet. I'll do that, then send you an IM later, okay?
[15:42]	Rheta Shan:	Yes, please
[15:42]	Rheta Shan:	(to Harleen's remark)
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds perfect, thanks Jacek
[15:43]	aliceinwire Bleac:	and i offer also some space for put your skin
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	I can't promise we'll offer a "classic patch" to put the old images and colors back
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	but I do think the community could do it fairly easily
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	what you really need to offer is a file structure that supports skins
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe, I'm sure they will
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your help with the documentation, Alice
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	we could do the skin on our own if it were easy to switch
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, McCabe, exactly
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	the Dazzle preview files proved that it's easy to swap out the look and feel
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	you basically just have to copy some files into your SL folder
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	could it be done through the inventory ?
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	"wear" an "UI" object ?
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	which would contain all neccessary information
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ben: one thing that would make it even easier, is if all the files for a skin were in one folder (or sub folders). Instead right now, colors_base.xml is in a different folder than the textures, if I recall correctly
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I agree Jacek
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I suspect that will be addressed in the skinning work
[15:45]	aliceinwire Bleac:	no squirrel
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	cool
[15:46]	aliceinwire Bleac:	asset have to manage too many file
[15:46]	aliceinwire Bleac:	with a ibject
[15:46]	Rheta Shan:	I woud advise against releasing Dazzle before skinning works without hackish solutions.
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	there's been chatter about making skins tradeable assets
[15:46]	aliceinwire Bleac:	you can think at the server slowing
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	I have a related question: has anyone here used the onrez viewer?
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	I have
[15:46]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i have too
[15:46]	Rheta Shan shakes her head
[15:46]	Jason Swain nods
[15:46]	aliceinwire Bleac:	is like second life viewer
[15:46]	Harleen Gretzky:	I have
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	I found it too bulky to use regularly
[15:47]	Simon Kline:	i had a quick go when it first came out
[15:47]	aliceinwire Bleac:	everything same
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	do people have the same glare/brightness issues with onrez?
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	but I liked the way they redid some of the menus
[15:47]	aliceinwire Bleac:	it only have a bar
[15:47]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i don't like onrez
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	there were people saying the same things on the onrez blog as I recall
[15:47]	aliceinwire Bleac:	is slow like the second life viewer
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	too bright, too blue
[15:48]	aliceinwire Bleac:	onrez is only a bad copy of second life viewer
[15:49]	aliceinwire Bleac:	who have try sleek ?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I did a long time ago
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	that's the ajax viewer right?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	are chat messages slow for others?
[15:49]	Rheta Shan:	No, that's AjaxLife
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood:	not to me
[15:49]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i don't know what's happen when you receive a object
[15:49]	Rheta Shan:	Not that I noticed :)
[15:50]	aliceinwire Bleac:	is not accepted?
[15:50]	aliceinwire Bleac:	also for notice?
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh *loves the ajax viewer*
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	I had some chat messages coming out of order earlier. (I was wondering why everyone was astonished about something, until the mountain-climbing comment came in 4 minutes later >_<)
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	it gave me my SL fix when my laptop died and I only had my old *shudder* GQ
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ jacek
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh that reminds me
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	what's next for dazzle, after this first look?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	well eventually we are going to make it a release candidate
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	after we've gotten more feedback from the community
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	we don't know the exact timing just yet
[15:52]	Harleen Gretzky:	SLeek just came out with a new version, very nice
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	so the layout isn't set in stone, then? or is it just a cosmetic change until release?
[15:52]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i have also a proble with the friend on sleek
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	can someone remind me what SLeek is
[15:52]	aliceinwire Bleac:	when i go on friend list i don't see everyone
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	which layout, McCabe?
[15:53]	Harleen Gretzky:	libSL based GUI for being in SL without seeing any 3d graphics
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	buttons, icon placement, menus
[15:53]	aliceinwire Bleac:	http://delta.slinked.net/second-life/sleek/
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I wouldn't expect most of that to change
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	we are mainly making minor tweaks at this point
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	oh McCabe before I forget, that bug about the build icons
[15:54]	aliceinwire Bleac:	what bug?
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	we had a hard time making icons for those special shapes
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5162
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	what would you recommend for those?
[15:54]	Rheta Shan perks up
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	1L a piece and only sell them in quantities of 10 ^^
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd recommend a hard outline on the icons; the white is practically invisible; I'd make the torus rounder around the middle and shrink the top of the ring, making its sides more sloped
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think if you modeled them after "shorter" shapes, instead of the stretched-up shapes, they'd be more recognizable
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	and the sizes should all be increased
[15:55]	aliceinwire Bleac:	for the ring you can make a vulcano type and for the tourus a strange stuff
[15:56]	aliceinwire Bleac:	like a flake
[15:56]	Rheta Shan:	You need moe contrast, and simple, unique shapes. The icons are too small for this kind of « realistic » design.
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Isn'
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	more contrast, yes
[15:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	Isn't there a group who has designed guidelines for good icons
[15:57]	Rheta Shan:	The map icons are easier to see, but suffer from too much detail in the small shape too.
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	there are lots of different icon guidelines
[15:57]	Rheta Shan:	And as to teh clothing icons, teh only recoginzable thing is the colour scheme…
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	these icons were originally drawn larger
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	they're not displaying actual size, which may be part of the problem
[15:58]	Rheta Shan:	Benjamin, all of them say make them easily discernible and easily understandable.
[15:58]	aliceinwire Bleac:	everythings starts by a cube
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Rheta, that's true :-)
[15:58]	Rheta Shan:	Which the Dazzle icons are patently not.
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	are other folks having issues deciphering the inventory icons?
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'd say shorter shapes like these near my head, and use value contrast to point out how many sides they have
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	several reviews I'ive read on the icons have mentioned their lack of distinction
[15:59]	Rheta Shan:	The inventory icons work because they keep the old colour scheme, but onyl because of that.
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hm, shorter in what sense?
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	the grass icon took me a long time to figure out for example
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Shorter in... umm... *makes the torus "tall" to demonstrate*
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, grass is a bit odd
[15:59]	Rheta Shan:	If you don't know the old colour schem, i challnege you to discern a jacket form a shirt.
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	so make torus more donut shaped?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes, more donut shaped, less cake shaped. (The cake is a lie, anyway)
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	words are escaping me... but you need a strong dark outline for all the icons
[16:00]	aliceinwire Bleac:	and with over a bit of chocolate
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes, dark outline is good
[16:00]	Rheta Shan:	And simpler shapes.
[16:00]	aliceinwire Bleac:	and a blow of sugare
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol alice
[16:00]	Rheta Shan:	Think geometrical, and unique, not detailed and realistic.
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	hoooow about showing a "preview" when hovering over the buttons ?
[16:00]	Rheta Shan giggles
[16:00]	Simon Kline:	lo alice you're making me hungry
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	for the grass, I'd make it a simple side view of several blades of grass like		but at odd angles
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm I just noticed the shape icon is old
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes. I would say "distinct" is higher priority than "looks like what you rez"
[16:01]	Rheta Shan:	Absolutely
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	I did add tooltips to the icons :-)
[16:01]	Simon Kline:	a preview isn't a bad idea, they say their name on mouse over still do they?
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	preview prims rendered client side only... like the preview you get for sculpties and textures and the like... except auto-closes
[16:02]	Rheta Shan:	Tool tips are second best to easily discernible icons, Penjamin.
[16:02]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i think we can leave only the cube on the building windows :P everythings start by a cube
[16:02]	Rheta Shan:	*Benjamin* sorry :)
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	there were none before, incredibly
[16:02]	Simon Kline:	ahh yes that's the word i'm looking for ben, tooltips they say those
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	honestly sl tooltips are horribly inaccurate at times
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wouldn't ever trust them
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol alice
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree, they should be visually distinguishable, Rheta
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not an artist but I don't envy having to draw these concepts in such small spaces
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	better to have icons that can be easily distinguished, like the difference between the pyramid and the prism
[16:02]	Rheta Shan:	The inventory folder icons for instance are neraly undistinguishable.
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	it's quite tricky
[16:03]	aliceinwire Bleac:	but is true when i build i don't see if i'm rezzing a tourus or a ring
[16:03]	aliceinwire Bleac:	i rez a cube
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	can we submit our own icons for consideration, actually?
[16:03]	aliceinwire Bleac:	than i change the propiety
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe try 2D shapes, like cross-sections. For example, the only difference between ring, tube, and torus is whether the cross section is a triangle, square, or circle
[16:03]	aliceinwire Bleac:	and i make my cube a tourus a aphere ora a ring
[16:03]	Rheta Shan:	How about an open call for icons ? There _are_ artitss in the community, if not at LL :)
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm, I'd say 2D would be rather spartan
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or... hmm. Wireframe-like drawings?
[16:04]	Simon Kline:	or maybe wireframe versions of them for icons.. tho there's not much resolution to play with in that small space
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe: yes, probably not *only* 2D. But maybe as part of the image
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	A contest ^^
[16:04]	Simon Kline:	hehe jacek
[16:04]	Rheta Shan:	Contes. Open Call. Whatever, yes.
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe, yay contest!
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	folks I'm sorry, I have another meeting to run to
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	like a 2D popup when you mouseover?
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	very valuable feedback!
[16:04]	Simon Kline:	np benjamin! thanks for the office hour ^^
[16:04]	Jason Swain:	Thanks Benjamin and Malbers ^^
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oops. Take care, Ben and Malbers!
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	aw okay. A pleasure as always benjamin
[16:04]	Rheta Shan smiles at Benjamin
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	let's continue this discussion next week
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care you too
[16:04]	Simon Kline:	and malbers!!
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	as always...
[16:04]	Rheta Shan:	Ta a lot.
[16:05]	aliceinwire Bleac:	yeah for give me more lag :P
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	and don't forget to post logs on your wiki ;)
[16:05]	aliceinwire Bleac:	:(
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I hope I can tp away
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm I can't stand up
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood:	have fun!
[16:05]	Yeti Bing:	thanks for meeting, Benjamin - grabed some new knowledge again.. :)
[16:05]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks all. This is exactly the kind of feedback we need.
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood:	and keep on rocking ^^