AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22

[9:33] Tao Takashi: Is there a meeting today anyway?
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: doesnt' work that way in me head
[9:34] Tao Takashi: I am a bit out of the loop at the moment though
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: thought there was zha sorta indicated there would be one
[9:34] Umeko Kawanishi: on google calendar, it says the meeting is still on
[9:34] Tao Takashi: still annoyed by the trademark topic ;-)
[9:34] Umeko Kawanishi: i'm new to this meeting so i don't know how late it usually is
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: trademark topic?
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: and zha's avie just went offline hmmm
[9:34] Tao Takashi: the change in TM policy by Linden Lab
[9:35] Tao Takashi: you haven't heard of that?
[9:35] Tao Takashi: already quite a while ago since it happened but there's still discussion
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: oh, yeah. Just didn't realize Groupies had talked about it
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: missed a day
[9:35] Tao Takashi: well, we haven't really
[9:35] Tao Takashi: but nevertheless I see it as potential issue
[9:35] Tao Takashi: because if LL really wants to control the name I don't want this name to be part of that protocol
[9:36] Tao Takashi: so I feel less motivated to work on "their" stuff
[9:37] Umeko Kawanishi: Hello Zha
[9:37] Tao Takashi: Hi Zha
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: eh. If the protocol is submitted to some standards body, it will either get a name change or the name will be opened.
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Hey all
[9:37] Tao Takashi: we will see what happens
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Hard to get dressed when the sims keep crashing
[9:38] Tao Takashi: in the past I was for not having SL in the name because it might drive some people away, now I am against it because it's an owned name
[9:38] Tao Takashi: and I had project in which this was a big problem at some point
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Q:uickTIme FIle FOrmat got changed to MPEG-4 file format, for example
[9:38] Tao Takashi: e.g. when companies see this name as asset but the whole project is an open source project
[9:38] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:38] Zha Ewry: Well, the OpenSim team, clearly stayed clear of SL
[9:38] Zha Ewry: in terms of name
[9:39] Tao Takashi: yep, that's good. they should maybe think about a foundation
[9:39] Tao Takashi: LL should actually think about a foundation ;-)
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: FireWire has its own IEEE project number
[9:39] Zha Ewry: Well, specs are less of an issue, but sure
[9:39] Zha Ewry: So...
[9:39] Zha Ewry: I wanted to share a little fun that happened on Friday afternoon
[9:39] Gorean Meter: 1.7.1 shouts: Goldie Katsu has detached their meter
[9:39] Tao Takashi: and if we are going to have alternative grids I also would like to be sure that this name is not owned by some company but the community (if legally possible)
[9:40] Tao Takashi: (or nobody)
[9:40] Tao Takashi: Hi Goldie
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: Hello
[9:40] Zha Ewry: grins at Goldie's noisy object
[9:40] Tao Takashi: because right now I don't feel that it's that much "your world" anymore but LL's world
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: That noisy object has been removed
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: blushes bright red.
[9:40] Tao Takashi: anyway, tell you story :)
[9:40] Zha Ewry: So...
[9:41] Zha Ewry: So, as most people know, IBM and Linden are doing some shared work.
[9:41] Zha Ewry: As part of that, I got invited to see the first live test of a dev grid running an actual Agent Domain
[9:42] Tao Takashi: FIC! ;)
[9:42] Zha Ewry: ZeroTh version, as it were
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Oh
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Yeah, if Iget any more Fic? I'll have to change my last name to Linden
[9:42] Goldie Katsu: Totallly cool
[9:42] Tao Takashi: I'd think so ;-)
[9:42] Goldie Katsu: (I obviously had some extra l's in inventory and had to use them.)
[9:43] Zha Ewry: So, what we did, was using a tweaked lient, logged on, via Aditi, with a parm, telling the client, which simulator to use for the rez_avatar call
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Aditi has the skinned agent domain, hiding in it
[9:43] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:43] Anders Falworth: Hi, all.
[9:43] Rex Cronon: what i the reason i got this "[9:42
[9:44] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:44] Zha Ewry: So, Aditi di the authentication, and then did a rez-avatar call, and poof we showed up on a sim, not on Aditi at all, but on a dev grid
[9:44] Zha Ewry: No inventory, for about 1/8 of us, no name.
[9:44] Zha Ewry: (If you had logged into the dev grid, since the last reboot of it, you got your name, go sort out how *that* works)
[9:45] Zha Ewry: so, 10 ruths,9 from Linden, standing around a 90% empty sim
[9:45] Zha Ewry: And, to say that things are really odd, when you're not fully on the sim?
[9:45] Zha Ewry: That is a major understatement
[9:45] Zha Ewry: You can't for example, delete prims you created
[9:46] Rex Cronon: what is everybody talking about?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Ahh,.
[9:46] Tao Takashi: about agent domain rev. -1 ;-)
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: rez avatar and agent domain in aditi
[9:46] Rex Cronon: -1?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: hands Rex erasers to clap clean for showing up late
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: version 0.0.0.1
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Yeah, put in plenty of 0.*s in there
[9:47] Goldie Katsu: pre-pre-pre-pre alpha
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Linden was testing the very first live drop of the agent domain
[9:47] Rex Cronon: there was no notice about a meeting for today
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: iow, my login script would have felt almost polished
[9:47] Tao Takashi: now that I got some experience with buildout and using zope components outside Zope in Python I should really start creating pyagentdomain
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Yeah, hard to post notices, when SL keeps kickign me out and crashign my sim
[9:47] Zha Ewry: So.. Zero owes us an updated rez_avatar
[9:48] Rex Cronon: i know is not your faul, but is not mine either:)
[9:48] Zha Ewry: And, I'm workign on coding one to match the linden one in OpenSim.. which. will, when we have consensus on the core devs, be checked in to the live tree
[9:48] Zha Ewry: With luck, actual testing in the next month
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Some fun things happen, when you start looking at this
[9:49] Zha Ewry: 90% of the singletons are issues
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Search, Currency, land management, etc are all assuming Linden Labs grid gorp
[9:49] Zha Ewry: some of which is actually in the client
[9:50] Tao Takashi: so could I then use an agent domain of mine with opensim?
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Well, Tao, that's going to depend on the OpenSim community staying in moderate sync with the Linden/AWG work
[9:50] Zha Ewry: My intent is to provide code which permits that
[9:50] Tao Takashi: cool
[9:51] Tao Takashi: so maybe we can set this as some sort of goal :)
[9:51] Zha Ewry: and. we're chatting, with the core OpenSim devs, about how to manage all of this
[9:51] Tao Takashi: of course I also first would have to implement something
[9:51] Goldie Katsu: Well if you think of the initial design specs, it's not entirely surprising.
[9:51] Zha Ewry: There is some tension
[9:51] Zha Ewry: between the various goals of various players
[9:51] Zha Ewry: OpenSim, reasonably, has its own grid like stuff
[9:51] Zha Ewry: and, its not always entirely congruent
[9:51] Tao Takashi: is this documented?
[9:51] Zha Ewry: You can go read the C#
[9:52] Tao Takashi: nah ;-)
[9:52] Zha Ewry: OpenSim is very Linden Compatible in terms of documentation strtategy, I fear.
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: they offer a bounty for docs though
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Yeah
[9:52] Tao Takashi: sounds like some of the projects which want to bring DataPortability to the web
[9:52] Zha Ewry: So..
[9:52] Tao Takashi: just without docs there won't be much portability ;-)
[9:52] Zha Ewry: What I'mgoign to be focusing, on in terms of coding
[9:52] Zha Ewry: is, in roughlu this order:
[9:53] Zha Ewry: a) rez_avatar, enough to make a simple login via aditi work
[9:53] Zha Ewry: b) A very think agent domain, to allow the inverse
[9:53] Zha Ewry: *thin
[9:53] Tao Takashi: I will just do b)
[9:53] Zha Ewry: c) Implementing the requestQueue in openSim
[9:53] Tao Takashi: just not sure how thin thin will be
[9:54] Zha Ewry: (Yeah, it iisn't there now, sigh)
[9:54] Rex Cronon: when u say documentation, u mean a description for each class, its function(parameters, what it does, return type), public/static variables?
[9:54] Tao Takashi: more a protocol documentation
[9:54] Tao Takashi: like the SLGOGP
[9:54] Tao Takashi: or like TCP ;-)
[9:54] Zha Ewry: d) adding a asset fetch plugin, to OpenSim that can fetch assets from other asset servers, using REST, following the AWG spec
[9:55] Zha Ewry: e) Coding an asset server wrapper for the OpenSim grid stuff to match d)
[9:55] Tao Takashi: I thought we don't have asset servers ;-)
[9:55] Zha Ewry: On SL?
[9:55] Tao Takashi: in AWG
[9:55] Zha Ewry: No much evidence of them this month
[9:55] Tao Takashi: heh
[9:55] Goldie Katsu: laughs
[9:56] Tao Takashi: so I am trying to get basic login working in Python and if defined also do stuff like serve inventory
[9:56] Zha Ewry: No, AWG still has some form of asset server, just wrapped up in REST
[9:56] Rex Cronon: where is this "AWG server"?
[9:56] Tao Takashi: but hidden in agent or region domain then
[9:56] Zha Ewry: pauses to blow matzoh crumbs away from the RL keyboard
[9:57] Zha Ewry: (Tech hostile holiday)
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Well
[9:57] Zha Ewry: The Asset servers, to my mind, will be parts of lots of people's grids, over time
[9:57] Zha Ewry: In fact, I hope/expect
[9:58] Zha Ewry: that they are at least semi-independent of specific grids
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: read the sadar story on your monitor?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: There isn't going to be any useful interop of assetrs unless we can fetch assets cross grid
[9:58] Zha Ewry: No, some things belong on paper
[9:58] Zha Ewry: handed aroudn the table
[9:58] Tao Takashi: well for me it always sounded as if assets are either stored on an agent or region domain. in the first case if they are in my inventory, in the latter if they are rezzed on some sim
[9:59] Zha Ewry: I don't htink so Tao
[9:59] Zha Ewry: I think they live in asset server,s which which the domains have a trust relatioship
[9:59] Tao Takashi: what's the benefit?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: two fold
[10:00] Zha Ewry: First, if I ever want to allow GridB to fetch my shirt from GridA, i need either GridA to proxy its asset server cloud, or expose it
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: asset server would talk to agent domain as go between for avie and sim
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I don't see a benefit to adding layers betwen componenets
[10:00] Zha Ewry: We have a REST url, for the asset
[10:00] Zha Ewry: we have certs,for trust
[10:01] Zha Ewry: If you want the asset, go fetch it
[10:01] Tao Takashi: what is "grid"?
[10:01] Zha Ewry: if you need to provde trurst, go to the agent domain, get a cap
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Ahh
[10:01] Tao Takashi: we haven't defined grid really
[10:01] Zha Ewry: At that point, I grid, is a set of regions and services haring a commong trust pattern ;-)
[10:01] Rex Cronon: what if grid b does't want to give the shirt to grid a?
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Then it doesn' tgive grid a a cert or a cap to the asset server
[10:01] Tao Takashi: but don't I either have my asset in my inventory or not to be able to use it?
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Ahh
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Inventory!
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Inventory, is agent domain, right?
[10:02] Tao Takashi: I thought so from what was once said
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Lurkign in that question, is do I have one per grid, or one period
[10:02] Zha Ewry: I am pretty sure it is one per grid
[10:02] Zha Ewry: and I'm not at all sure, how we meld them yet
[10:02] Tao Takashi: I see "grid" as something very virtual..
[10:03] Tao Takashi: it depends on rules set by agent and region domains maybe. If they just let certain domains in and nothing else then this might be a grid
[10:03] Zha Ewry: But.. there has to be a way for me to say, "I want the shirt, I bought on Linden's main grid here on IBM's private grid"
[10:03] Tao Takashi: I would say I have an inventory per agent
[10:03] Zha Ewry: I tend to agree Tao
[10:03] Rex Cronon: grid= number of interconnected sims
[10:03] Tao Takashi: Rex. and this can change on the fly
[10:03] Zha Ewry: With a common shared trust domain
[10:03] Tao Takashi: because we are decentral
[10:03] Zha Ewry: You need common shared trust, or it becomes soup
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Which some garage sims will look like
[10:04] Tao Takashi: trust for connecting to it or for doing certain things on it?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Just a few lonly sims
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I think over time?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: It becomes fairly fine grained
[10:04] Tao Takashi: I think we need use cases, it becomes knots in my head ;-)
[10:04] Zha Ewry: At first? I'm happy if its "Here's my cert, give me the detault access based on this"
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I agree Tao
[10:05] Tao Takashi: and we should define what the requirements are based on the scenarios
[10:05] Zha Ewry: Grid, becomes a clump of servers and services which don't need to do nasty cross grid sauthentication
[10:05] Tao Takashi: and create new scenarios based on them
[10:05] Rex Cronon: can't there be multiple levels of trust between sims on same grid, and between grids?
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I am guessing, that savvy users, who are floating across several grids
[10:05] Tao Takashi: so I would think my agent has an inventory.. it might also be linked to another agent eventually so I have access to both
[10:05] Zha Ewry: will yes, Tao
[10:05] Zha Ewry: exactly
[10:05] Zha Ewry: setup to fetch several inventories, and manage them
[10:05] Tao Takashi: so these seem to be my asset servers then
[10:06] Zha Ewry: so.. I'll be able to pull out a shirt from Linden's grid
[10:06] Tao Takashi: those agent domains those assets reside on
[10:06] Tao Takashi: then some can be trusted, some not
[10:06] Zha Ewry: a skirt from the Fashionista grid
[10:06] Zha Ewry: and.. a nice pair of thoses from the ShinyThings grid
[10:06] Zha Ewry: *shoes
[10:06] Tao Takashi: soon needs paper to draw some stuff ;_)
[10:06] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:06] Tao Takashi: ok, so you assume that these shoes don't move to my agent domain then?
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Or a good graphical editing thingy
[10:07] Tao Takashi: when I buy them
[10:07] Zha Ewry: I think it depends
[10:07] Tao Takashi: paper is probably better for a start ;-)
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: will we be reading design specs around dinner next?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:07] Tao Takashi: because I want it to be copied to my agent domain when I buy it
[10:07] Tao Takashi: you know, I bought it ;-)
[10:07] Zha Ewry: "And then, Zero, spake unto the AWG, saying I will not allow my assets to be copied"
[10:07] Tao Takashi: we can invent some AWG prayer, too ;-)
[10:07] Zha Ewry: "And gigs, invoking the great Stallman said "Let my assets go""
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: and LL sent the 9 plagues untlo the citizens and they were pissed
[10:08] Tao Takashi: Sai: They are already on it
[10:08] Rex Cronon: ll is not god
[10:08] Rex Cronon: .
[10:08] Tao Takashi: actually I think by now it has been more than 9 ;-)
[10:08] Tao Takashi: in here they are ;-)
[10:08] Tao Takashi: and god said "you shall not receive stipends on time!"
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Lag, Loss of Invenotry, Borked IMs, Borked presence, and, the final and most dread plague "The inserting of prims in the backside of the first born avatars"
[10:09] Rex Cronon: if ll was god, there would be no griefing
[10:09] Tao Takashi: there is griefing in RL ;-)
[10:09] Tao Takashi: so I guess there is no god then
[10:09] Zha Ewry: OK
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Ok
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Seriously tho
[10:09] Tao Takashi: but maybe we can discuss this question at another meeting ;-)
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I think that whether an asset moves on buy, is interestin
[10:10] Zha Ewry: In general?
[10:10] Tao Takashi: well, I would like it to move because I don't trust the other servers to stay up ;-)
[10:10] Zha Ewry: right
[10:10] Tao Takashi: like I also want to download mp3s when I bought them. I don't want to rent them
[10:10] Goldie Katsu: Ma nishtana....
[10:10] Zha Ewry: I'd like to be able to buy it "into" my home grid
[10:10] Zha Ewry: or my shared grid
[10:10] Tao Takashi: I also don't want to be able to read my ebooks although the license server went out of business ;-)
[10:10] Tao Takashi: err want :)
[10:10] Anders Falworth: bye, all. RL calls. :-)
[10:10] Zha Ewry: looks for one mor enegative inTao's last
[10:11] Zha Ewry: So.. Buy?
[10:11] Tao Takashi: you know what I mean :)
[10:11] Rex Cronon: u could sign a contract that spedifies u are not going to resell copies of what u buy
[10:11] Zha Ewry: I think it goes into your "home" or specified domain
[10:11] Tao Takashi: I want do buy it into my agent domain
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Not sure if ts agent domain
[10:11] Rex Cronon: bye anders
[10:11] Tao Takashi: cya Anders
[10:11] Zha Ewry: but onto an asset server you chose, and trust
[10:11] Tao Takashi: what else then?
[10:11] Tao Takashi: that's probably from where I login then
[10:11] Zha Ewry: (Presumably the default set for your home domain)
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Probably
[10:12] Tao Takashi: with using another one I see it as getting quite complicated
[10:12] Zha Ewry: I'm perfectly willing to contemplate keeping 90% of my assets on a asset server
[10:12] Tao Takashi: you might need to authorize on that, too etc.
[10:12] Zha Ewry: which is my main grid
[10:12] Zha Ewry: But, some I may want on my personal, or a seperate one
[10:12] Tao Takashi: but it might be one of my linked agent domains then
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:12] Tao Takashi: or linked agents rather
[10:12] Zha Ewry: and.. the challange for all of this
[10:12] Tao Takashi: might be the same domain
[10:12] Tao Takashi: but then this agent sort of buys it
[10:12] Zha Ewry: is goign to be to keep it 99% transparent from casual users
[10:12] Tao Takashi: so the agent becomes the owner
[10:13] Tao Takashi: I assume the linkage is a very special case
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Not so sure it is
[10:13] Zha Ewry: But it certainly isn't the default
[10:13] Zha Ewry: the default is
[10:13] Tao Takashi: well, you might see alts as links
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Put it in my default (home) inventory
[10:13] Zha Ewry: and put it ion my default (home) asset server
[10:13] Tao Takashi: and then it would be good to move stuff between alts/links
[10:13] Tao Takashi: so I still see the asset server as part of the agent domain
[10:14] Tao Takashi: then the agent domain needs to be trusted. otherwise I might not be able to buy that object
[10:14] Zha Ewry: This.. all.. by the bby. presuposes permisions getting laid out nicely
[10:14] Tao Takashi: if the creator's AD does not trust the buyer's AD
[10:14] Zha Ewry: So
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Well, we're going to face that all the rim
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Trust between the parts is fundemental to easy interop
[10:14] Tao Takashi: yep
[10:15] Zha Ewry: Amazginly hard to get web pages from behind the IBM firewall
[10:15] Zha Ewry: (We kind of like it that way)
[10:15] Tao Takashi: you just need the right man to get them ;-)
[10:15] Zha Ewry: Heh
[10:15] Zha Ewry: But. when I want to publish them to the outside world?
[10:15] Tao Takashi: and suddenly it's quite easy ;-)
[10:15] Tao Takashi: you are using this now as analogy?
[10:16] Zha Ewry: We go through a set of annoying explicit moves, to do that
[10:16] Zha Ewry: (yes)
[10:16] Zha Ewry: Moving an asset between two domain which doin't share trust is goign to be like that
[10:16] Zha Ewry: You're going to have to manage the credential
[10:16] Tao Takashi: yep, right now I am still in the "A trusts B" mode
[10:16] Zha Ewry: and possibly, you will simply be unabel to do it
[10:16] Tao Takashi: if there is no trust, no object should go there if it says "I don't trust B"
[10:16] Goldie Katsu: asset escrows?
[10:17] Zha Ewry: "I don't ever accept assets from outside my trust cloud"
[10:17] Tao Takashi: so the objects need to contain the information of whom to trust
[10:17] Zha Ewry: And, yes, I expect Goldie
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Actually, I expect, what we will see is a big island of shared trust
[10:17] Zha Ewry: (The current world + all the grids which get along with it)
[10:17] Tao Takashi: depends on the TM ;-)
[10:17] Zha Ewry: and then... a lot of semi-trusted grids
[10:18] Tao Takashi: I wonder how many people will trust everybody
[10:18] Tao Takashi: that will get interesting
[10:18] Tao Takashi: the more you trust the more business you make
[10:18] Rex Cronon: maybe not the objects, but the server that has them it shoudl
[10:18] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:18] Tao Takashi: Rex: If we say objects move from server to server then they should take their trust information with them
[10:18] Tao Takashi: the question is how this can be updated then
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: is thinking that there needs to be a way for non-firewalled grids to simulate the BIM-sub-grid behavior
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: IBM sub-grid*
[10:19] Tao Takashi: but I guess there is a way using certs. I just need to wrap my head around it ;-)
[10:19] Zha Ewry: We'll get there
[10:19] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:19] Zha Ewry: I think the biggest challanges, are going to be keeping it hidden, and easy for people to understand
[10:19] Tao Takashi: but also in the idea of Data Portability it really should move from domain to domain
[10:20] Goldie Katsu: Yes. Making people make smart decisions to have it work is not a reliable mechanism.
[10:20] Tao Takashi: the problem with usability might be when it says "you cannot buy this object"
[10:20] Tao Takashi: or "you cannot rez this object"
[10:20] Rex Cronon: i think that it would be better if objects were in a "public store" and the sim u r in would get them from it
[10:20] Zha Ewry: In theory, Tao, I agree.. In practice.. I think it will be a while
[10:20] Tao Takashi: Rex. but if that goes down?
[10:20] Zha Ewry: And.. I think public store/place
[10:20] Rex Cronon: don't servers have mirrors?
[10:20] Zha Ewry: is going to turn out to be business hosted on the main grids
[10:20] Zha Ewry: One hopes Rex
[10:21] Tao Takashi: Rex: like "out of business"
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Of course, the past month
[10:21] Zha Ewry: I am not sure that is a realized expectation
[10:21] Zha Ewry: But. again, seriously
[10:21] Tao Takashi: Zha: Well, I would expect to have not too many agent domains around in the beginning serving as such public servers
[10:21] Tao Takashi: like the LL one
[10:21] Zha Ewry: I think the world is likely to have a big bubble of sims hoste din the [public fomain
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Exactly Tao
[10:21] Rex Cronon: u could tell the sim, hey my store is here, go fetch my invetory, and i give it a pass to fetch it
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Big cluster of highly reliable
[10:22] Tao Takashi: and LL probably will also have the biggest amount of regions in one region domain
[10:22] Zha Ewry: broadly trusted regions and servers
[10:22] Tao Takashi: Rex: I think this can be my agent domain
[10:22] Tao Takashi: Rex: I give it my pass anyway
[10:22] Zha Ewry: In time?
[10:22] Tao Takashi: one part of this is the asset server then
[10:22] Zha Ewry: I think we'll see more supple relatoinships
[10:22] Zha Ewry: But.. if we assume, that it grows out, stepwise from what we have today?
[10:22] Goldie Katsu: hmm...sensible defaults or behaviors on fail.
[10:23] Zha Ewry: The anchor point for some time, is thr main grid
[10:23] Quanta Torok: accepted your inventory offer.
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Over time.. that becomes less obvious
[10:23] Zha Ewry: But. You know what?
[10:23] Tao Takashi: we can sketch out some scenario for 2843
[10:23] Rex Cronon: i mean u give it a pass that expires after a set time
[10:23] Zha Ewry: If we have that problem in 2015? I'm totally ok with it because we've suceeeded
[10:24] Zha Ewry: for 2008, I'm happy to get the basics of interop underway, and in 2009, see some nicely interopersating grids, with a simple trust model
[10:24] Zha Ewry: by 2010, we can start solvign the hard problems ;-)
[10:24] Tao Takashi: I still don't like the word "grid" ;-)
[10:25] Zha Ewry: What do you prefer, Tao?
[10:25] paulie Femto: accepted your inventory offer.
[10:25] Tao Takashi: region domains and agent domains and maybe a web of trust between them.. grid sounds so static
[10:25] Rex Cronon: net?
[10:25] Tao Takashi: while I think it won't be static
[10:25] Tao Takashi: depending on which permissions you look
[10:25] Zha Ewry: I think it will be moderatly so, to be honest
[10:25] Tao Takashi: I hope it won't ;-)
[10:25] Zha Ewry: I think movign a region between "grids" will be a rare event
[10:25] Zha Ewry: I think that what will surprise people
[10:26] Tao Takashi: not a region, but having new agent domains or region domains popping up
[10:26] Zha Ewry: is that we will have regions in several grids
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Ah
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:26] Zha Ewry: that I think we will see a lot of
[10:26] Tao Takashi: and they might still be able to connect
[10:26] Tao Takashi: but maybe won't be able to rez stuff
[10:26] Tao Takashi: because of missing stuff
[10:26] Tao Takashi: missing trust ;)
[10:27] Tao Takashi: that also sounded like this when Zero was talking about the trust issue
[10:27] Tao Takashi: it might not mean you are not allowed to connect but you are not allowed to do everything
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: which also goes back to the intermediate login between login and rez_avatar
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Yes, ti does a bit
[10:27] Zha Ewry: I think Zero and Tess, aren't quite sure about that
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Or more to the point
[10:28] Tao Takashi: about what?
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess wants speciific use cases to work with
[10:28] Zha Ewry: I don't htink that they have the trust model sorted out yet
[10:28] paulie Femto: Howdeh, all. :)
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Hey Paulie
[10:28] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:28] Tao Takashi: I wouldn't expect them to have everything sorted out as it's not an easy problem ;-)
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I think a generic "steb B" at least leaves a conceptual opening in the design that can be filled in later
[10:28] Rex Cronon: hi
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: step* B
[10:28] Tao Takashi: but I still would like to be able to connect to as many grids as possible and rez my GPLed clothes ;-)
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Right now, Rez_avatar, mostly, assumes that Sim B, is trusted by the agent grid
[10:29] Zha Ewry: I think in fact
[10:29] Zha Ewry: it will often be
[10:29] Tao Takashi: of course except internal company grids
[10:29] Zha Ewry: And.. tp is the case we care about
[10:29] Zha Ewry: login is a nit, but easy to do early
[10:29] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:29] Zha Ewry: On tp..
[10:29] Zha Ewry: I think it will be
[10:29] Zha Ewry: My agent domain looks at the destination
[10:29] Rex Cronon: u could have your gpl clothes on your own computer
[10:29] paulie Femto: not to hijack, but will there be another Agent Domain test soon?
[10:30] Zha Ewry: and.. if we haven't logged onto the agent domain of the detsination, dos o for me, and get a cap
[10:30] Tao Takashi: I wonder if we can see the avatar as special object and use the same rules as for assets... but just a spontaneous thought
[10:30] Zha Ewry: if we have a valid cap, just us it
[10:30] Zha Ewry: get the seed cap of the destinatoin region from that
[10:30] Zha Ewry: and then invoke rez_avatar on that
[10:30] Tao Takashi: I need to look into the spec again and implement something. that way I get more familiar with it
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I can't see just going directly to a sim in another grid
[10:31] Zha Ewry: that.. is too much like pestering a low level http server in a load balancing cloud
[10:31] Tao Takashi: you mean a different region domain? :)
[10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: meta-grid login => grid-specific presence => rez_avatar is what I've been thinking
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:31] Zha Ewry: And Saij.. think about grid-specific-presence as
[10:31] Zha Ewry: having the cap for the grid?
[10:31] Zha Ewry: The seed cap, which lets you get things like caps to regions, and such
[10:32] Zha Ewry: That "feels" right
[10:32] Tao Takashi: so region domains need to trust n (n>0) agent domains
[10:32] Tao Takashi: and right now it's sort of trusted anyway
[10:32] Zha Ewry: thinks for a moment
[10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: sure. And that cap should be able to return more than just a seed cap for a sim. MIght have optional things like get me my WoW gold
[10:32] Zha Ewry: yeah< I think that's right tao
[10:32] Zha Ewry: And. Yes, Saij
[10:32] Zha Ewry: The point of gettting a grid level seed cap
[10:32] Zha Ewry: is it lets the grid operater desicde what I need to get today
[10:33] Zha Ewry: and.. nicely
[10:33] Rex Cronon: what would u do with WOW gold in sl?
[10:33] Tao Takashi: so the seed cap you get from the AD right now is valid also for the RD of LL, is that right?
[10:33] Zha Ewry: It also allows that to be reflected into the grid cloud
[10:33] Tao Takashi: so the AD knows about this specific RD
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex its a grid-specific thing...
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Assuming, Rex, that we get to the nivrana of a single client (hah)
[10:33] Zha Ewry: then, your Wow money (Copper, Silver, Gold)
[10:34] Zha Ewry: would be accessed via a Wow currency cap
[10:34] Goldie Katsu: Maybe there could be an adventure area in SL that used wow gold?
[10:34] Goldie Katsu: (Gold...some day I'll have gold.)
[10:34] Zha Ewry: grins
[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: cap = Capability for newcomers
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Thanks Saij, good point
[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: or maybe SOE will allow TP from SL to WoW
[10:34] Zha Ewry: I forget everyone hasn't been soaking in the terminology for a year
[10:35] Zha Ewry: examines her pruny skin and sighs
[10:35] paulie Femto: "It's CAPS. yer soaking in it!" heh
[10:35] Zha Ewry: "Its a technology broth, and a dish detergent"
[10:36] Zha Ewry: (So, who can tell, that the meatverse Ave was up for two hours, with a noisy todler, and is very silly today?)
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Ohh.
[10:36] Lor Gynoid: accepted your inventory offer.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: I also had an offline chat with Zero.. about encoding
[10:36] Tao Takashi: ok, I gotta go for now but will be back later!
[10:36] Tao Takashi: good chat! :)
[10:36] paulie Femto: meataverse. heh.
[10:36] Tao Takashi: meet a verse
[10:36] Zha Ewry: json?
[10:36] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Would most people who find LLSD sort of quesy making be good with native JSON encodings?
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: yay, json.. just had a bout with json in work..
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Hey teravous
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: Grrets Zha
[10:37] Tao Takashi: I am for JSON I think simply because more people know it
[10:37] Tao Takashi: but anyway, off..
[10:37] paulie Femto: Howdeh, Tera. :)
[10:37] Zha Ewry: I'm inclined to JSON.. because, yeah, it's less purely pythonic linden hacking
[10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: shrugs
[10:38] Zha Ewry: LLSD, is exactly what you'd get if you had python, a case of red bull, and two days to do encoding
[10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as Python can handle it ;-)
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: JSON is fun in .NET :D
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: shusshes and lets Zha talk
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, paulie you had a question about the next test of the Agent Domain?
[10:39] paulie Femto: Sai: yeah.
[10:39] Zha Ewry: You'll have to ask Linden, Not much to see. Hmm. Let me see if I have this.
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: its on the beta grid, so it should be realitvely open to the public eventually
[10:39] paulie Femto: kewl
[10:40] paulie Femto: Tera: I'm checking out Ready Cathedral in my other SL client window. nice.
[10:40] Zha Ewry: One sec..
[10:40] Zha Ewry: let me rez this
[10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm thinking the first test is doing rez avatar from one Agent Domain. The next level should be to have TWO Agent Domains pointing to the same region
[10:40] Teravus Ousley: Thanks. built that on a standalone and imported with save/load XML
[10:41] paulie Femto: piccies ftw
[10:42] paulie Femto: looks like OpenSIm. :)
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Except for Onus
[10:42] paulie Femto: yeah
[10:42] Zha Ewry: who logged in via the normal path and has his inventory and shape
[10:42] paulie Femto: neat
[10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: so really, the login script could handle that with a very minor mod
[10:43] Zha Ewry: For fun, that's Zero, Hamilton, Periapse, Onus (twice) and. a few others
[10:43] Zha Ewry: What's kind of scary, is how many odd things happened
[10:43] Zha Ewry: Like..
[10:43] Zha Ewry: The jacket
[10:44] paulie Femto: I see that, yeah.
[10:44] Zha Ewry: Notice one ave has textured jacket?
[10:44] Zha Ewry: She.. had been on the sim earlier
[10:44] paulie Femto: cached?
[10:44] Zha Ewry: Yep
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: thats funny
[10:44] Zha Ewry: and then baked up to us
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: unintended VR side-effects
[10:44] Zha Ewry: So, when she logged in, it picked up off her locsl cache
[10:44] paulie Femto: heh
[10:45] Zha Ewry: All sorts of hints about where the challanges lie
[10:45] paulie Femto: challenging assumptions ftw!
[10:45] Goldie Katsu: Code paths will be interesting to check.
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: so much for asset security
[10:45] Goldie Katsu: How many things are done in multiple functions depending on which path through the code.
[10:45] paulie Femto: we had asset security?
[10:46] Zha Ewry: well
[10:46] Goldie Katsu: Well if you don't know the asset ID you can't get it. :)
[10:46] Zha Ewry: well
[10:46] Zha Ewry: its messy
[10:46] Teravus Ousley: perceived asset security.. anyway
[10:46] Zha Ewry: The cool thing tho
[10:46] Zha Ewry: is that we're actually getting some traction
[10:47] paulie Femto: great!
[10:47] Zha Ewry: So.. bit of OpenSim/mono fun I got signed up for, by my lead dev?
[10:47] Zha Ewry: Nobody has done the eventQueue yet
[10:47] Zha Ewry: So, i looked, and I see why
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: heh, threads
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Yep
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Mono has support for select
[10:48] Zha Ewry: but the http/caps support is threadpooled
[10:48] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:48] Zha Ewry: I'm going to look at fixing that first
[10:48] Zha Ewry: and then the eventqueue on top of
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: Neas suggested something last week on that.. but I've been stuck in 1st life work
[10:48] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:49] Lulworth Beaumont: Zha: so you're doing OpenSim dev work now?
[10:49] Zha Ewry: Well, I'm wiling to get into doing it
[10:49] Zha Ewry: Some, yes..
[10:49] Zha Ewry: I'm mostly going to coordinate some of our work aimed at interop
[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: if youo can figure out what is going on with gorup IM so I can finaly get that durned python script workign, would be a Very Good Thing
[10:49] Zha Ewry: but, I want to get some mono brackets under my fingernails so I can udnerstand it up close
[10:49] Zha Ewry: I don't believe in just designign
[10:50] Zha Ewry: Coding is needed to fully get the code base
[10:50] Lulworth Beaumont: yes, as Bertrand Russell said
[10:50] Zha Ewry: chuckle
[10:50] Zha Ewry: Well, indirectly
[10:50] Lulworth Beaumont: you have to walk over the mountain to really get to know it
[10:50] Zha Ewry: I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about mono
[10:50] Lulworth Beaumont: I paraphrase I suspect
[10:50] Lulworth Beaumont: :)
[10:50] paulie Femto: :)
[10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: hitchhiking is the only way to learn aforeign country in a short time. Unfortunately it isn't safe any more, pretty much anywhere
[10:51] Zha Ewry: So.. One of the things, I also want to do?
[10:51] Lulworth Beaumont: if you are coding, it would be good to try and keep everything as modulat as possible
[10:51] Zha Ewry: is get the OpenSim team on a sim, with Zero, to see what issue we have as we really get into this
[10:51] Lulworth Beaumont: OpenSim isn't mean to be a secondlife server clone after all
[10:51] Zha Ewry: Oh, my yes
[10:51] Zha Ewry: Not at all
[10:51] Zha Ewry: We want people to be able to plug in the parts they want
[10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: login => grd-Presence=>rez_avatar...
[10:52] Zha Ewry: if you don't need to accept TPs from other grids?
[10:52] Zha Ewry: Why lug along the code?
[10:52] Zha Ewry: At the same time?
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I hope, we'll be able to converge on some common ground
[10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: you'd have to revamp John Hurliman's packet handler. Pretty shre that's the largest bit of code in libsl
[10:52] Lulworth Beaumont: yes, I would hope that too
[10:52] Zha Ewry: And, I've invited Zero to come along and get involved in that discussion
[10:53] Zha Ewry: We can't simply drop thinsg like this into OpenSim, it has be part of the community desires
[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: 70k+ LINES in a single file
[10:53] Lulworth Beaumont: That's what I like to hear ;)
[10:54] Teravus Ousley: yes, _packets_ but that's programmatically generated :D
[10:54] Zha Ewry: which 70K of code?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: or community desires?
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: 70K lines of code, Zha. The auto-generated packet-handler code
[10:54] Lulworth Beaumont: community desires - not 70K of code .... ;)
[10:54] Zha Ewry: I thoguht so
[10:54] Zha Ewry: Chat is sometimes tricky to be sure tho ;-)
[10:55] Zha Ewry: So.. yes, we need to be sure we are not stepping on toes
[10:55] Lulworth Beaumont: If it's autogen it's not really a huge issue imho
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: was just saying that to slim down a client or server based on libsl, the first thing is to special-case the packet genertor code
[10:55] Zha Ewry: We're also looking at.. getting some resource into the client, with a specific goal of
[10:55] Rex Cronon: code made by code:)
[10:55] Zha Ewry: adding some things which will make OpenSim and Interop easier to work on
[10:55] Teravus Ousley: yeah, packets is really a resource class also.
[10:55] Teravus Ousley: (file)..
[10:55] Multi Gadget: v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
[10:55] Teravus Ousley: many classes
[10:55] Lor Gynoid: Could I ask where the responsibility for the name space management is?
[10:56] Zha Ewry: In which context?
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: wonders who Lor is directing that question at
[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM sans user interface is about 1K lines of code. using libsl as it stands is overkill for SLEEK
[10:57] Lor Gynoid: I'm still feeling my way in this system.
[10:57] Multi Gadget: v1.52.0 by Timeless Prototype
[10:58] Lor Gynoid: If new things are created then I'd have thought you could run into name space management issues.
[10:58] Zha Ewry: The UUIDs should keep that clean
[10:59] Multi Gadget: v1.52.0 by Timeless Prototype
[10:59] Multi Gadget: v1.52.0 by Timeless Prototype
[11:00] Lor Gynoid: I was thinking for example about security considerations as the number of interacting servers grows.
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: heh.. there was a stip on www.dilbert.com that was amusing on that topic.
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: 'strip'
[11:01] Lor Gynoid: Following the principle of "if you don't think about security at the beginning, retrofitting it is very difficult".
[11:01] Zha Ewry: The security stuff
[11:01] Zha Ewry: Yes
[11:01] Zha Ewry: Two parts
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: it goes "Mort the IT destroyer: Security is more important then usability"
[11:02] Zha Ewry: One is understanding exactly where the issue lie
[11:02] Zha Ewry: The other
[11:02] Zha Ewry: is what Teravus just touched on
[11:02] Zha Ewry: We need to make it not only built in
[11:02] Zha Ewry: but we need to make it seamless, and not something that drives users insane
[11:02] Lor Gynoid: Yes, security which prevents legitimate access. :)
[11:03] Goldie Katsu: seamless is the hard and important part.
[11:04] Lor Gynoid: Once you have multiple servers it seems likely just about any conceivable attempt to subvert security will be attempted.
[11:04] Zha Ewry: Exactly Goldie
[11:04] Zha Ewry: and I agree Lor
[11:05] Zha Ewry: But.. we have to work our way in a bit at a time
[11:05] Lor Gynoid: Hacing the name space management is one area I'm trying to think about.
[11:05] Lor Gynoid: Hacking*
[11:05] Zha Ewry: Super
[11:05] Zha Ewry: Ideas are really welcome
[11:06] Teravus Ousley: likes the idea of tagging content for intent.. including (don't allow move to other grids)
[11:06] Lor Gynoid: Extended permissions scheme?
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: right, the for this grid only permission
[11:07] Teravus Ousley: nod nods
[11:07] Zha Ewry: Intent good
[11:07] Zha Ewry: Four legs bad
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: the only way to do it though is assume that all current "full permissions" items are ok for the open grid too.
[11:07] Goldie Katsu: I'm wondering how much of this new architecture parallels other distributed architectures and if we can use existing security techniques used in those architectures within the SL architecture.
[11:07] Lor Gynoid: The "only execute this script on a secure remote server" permission. :)
[11:07] Zha Ewry: Only a bit, Goldie
[11:08] Zha Ewry: I read the Hydra/MMP papers again, and while the capabiltiy stuff is akin?
[11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: agent domain may have its own scrip server
[11:08] Zha Ewry: its also very different
[11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: for bling/attachments
[11:08] Goldie Katsu: The key part is testing assumptions that underly security models. SS7 may work on wireline but on a wireless service the security model - not so good.
[11:08] Zha Ewry: exactly
[11:09] Lor Gynoid: One of my concers was there might be some reasons for thinking about stream encrypting everything...
[11:09] Zha Ewry: I hope not Lor
[11:10] Zha Ewry: Because, that's killer to caching
[11:10] Lor Gynoid: Once you think about what information need to be accessable and concealed where.
[11:10] Zha Ewry: Hmm
[11:10] Zha Ewry: That helps a bit
[11:11] Lor Gynoid: If something has been decrypted on a particular client you need to assume it is insecure, anyway, so, you can use that as a basis for caching.
[11:12] Goldie Katsu: You would need a way to know that the cache thing is the same as the item being requested however - so it depends on how it is implemented.
[11:12] Zha Ewry: Well, UUID again, in theory
[11:12] Lor Gynoid: One trick is to leave some of the metadata encrypted, and require that to be passed back, to check things?
[11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: encrypted UUID? Seems reduandant
[11:14] Lor Gynoid: More the UUID to data in the cache linking info?
[11:14] Zha Ewry: The UUID should ensure uniqueness
[11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: that would be a CAP though, which is sent over https anyway
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: cap = https:uli:port/cap/UUID basica
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: uri*
[11:15] Lor Gynoid: Once you start thinking about untrusted servers conspiring with untrusted clients, the required thinking to get it all straight can be tricky.
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: notes that you're not necessarily supposed to assume anything about a cap :P
[11:16] Zha Ewry: All you can assume?
[11:16] Zha Ewry: Is that you get a URL to do ops on
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: nods :D
[11:16] Zha Ewry: If its https, you can assume its not going to geet peeked at in trransit
[11:17] Zha Ewry: You can't assume what box it runs on
[11:17] Zha Ewry: or.. the structure of the URL
[11:17] Teravus Ousley: for example.. in opensim you get something completely different.. but it works still because the client doesn't assume
[11:17] Zha Ewry: Yep
[11:17] Zha Ewry: And in fact, that's off the essence
[11:17] Zha Ewry: Both that the client doesn't assume
[11:17] Zha Ewry: and that it can be pointed anywhere
[11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: so the UUID of the cap has nothing to do with the UUID of an asset...?
[11:18] Zha Ewry: I can.. hand you a cap to fo an operatoin to any machine which can do th work
[11:18] Zha Ewry: Yep
[11:18] Zha Ewry: No assupmtion there at all
[11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: should have known that. Probably did but forgot
[11:18] Teravus Ousley: yep, that data is useually *posted* to the cap given
[11:18] Teravus Ousley: it isn't in the cap address
[11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: right
[11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: 2 hours sleep today
[11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: its in my scripts so I "knew" it
[11:19] Zha Ewry: OK, I have to go do one of my favorite things
[11:19] Zha Ewry: (Explain SL tech to laywers)
[11:19] Goldie Katsu: Oooh fun!
[11:19] paulie Femto: Bye, Zha! Great meeting. :)
[11:19] Teravus Ousley: :D I've got to do a few things and jump to a meeting also
[11:19] Zha Ewry: Thanks
[11:20] Goldie Katsu: Good luck with the lawyers.
[11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: see yo uat Zero's
[11:20] Zha Ewry: Oh, they aren't bad
[11:20] Goldie Katsu: I'm off to talk about streaming formats.
[11:20] Zha Ewry: Just need some hand holding
[11:20] Goldie Katsu: Well that is good.
[11:20] Zha Ewry: and a little explanation about why this all matters
[11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: how's the deal with Eben Moglen coming along?
[11:20] Goldie Katsu: It does sound like you've had a lot of practice with lawyers.
[11:20] paulie Femto: I'll pop off too, then. Thx for the meeting.
[11:20] Lor Gynoid: seen proposals to replace lawyers with python scripts. :)
[11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's been at IBM for 25 years...
[11:20] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:20] Zha Ewry: and possibly uncroggling about the Avatar
[11:20] Teravus Ousley: anyway.. take care :D
[11:20] Goldie Katsu: uncroggling?
[11:20] Zha Ewry: kk
[11:20] Zha Ewry: Good sicussion all
[11:21] Zha Ewry: Yeah, for some reason, the lead consul on this patent
[11:21] Umeko Kawanishi: thanks for the meeting zha
[11:21] paulie Femto: waves
[11:21] Zha Ewry: Spent most of the demo, staring at my Avatar
[11:21] Goldie Katsu: ahhhh
[11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: forgot to wear something business like?
[11:21] Zha Ewry: No
[11:21] Zha Ewry: I wass very nicely lawery friendly
[11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: something about the meatspace avie and the SL avie not compatible?
[11:22] Lor Gynoid: Probably wanted an avatar like that themselves. :)
[11:22] Goldie Katsu: chuckles
[11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: even SL citizens do a double-take on your voice
[11:23] Zha Ewry: I mean, serously
[11:23] Zha Ewry: Lawyer firendly ave ;-)
[11:24] Goldie Katsu: Ah I have someone who wants to join AW Groupies.
[11:24] Umeko Kawanishi: zha-how did you change your clothes and hair so quick. I am usually hesitant about that in public.
[11:24] Zha Ewry: grins
[11:24] Zha Ewry: Lots of practice ;-)
[11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Goldie, name?
[11:24] Goldie Katsu: blotto Epsilon
[11:24] Zha Ewry: And
[11:24] Zha Ewry: Add, always, enevr replace
[11:24] Lor Gynoid: The trick is to use Folders in Folders. :)
[11:24] Zha Ewry: *never
[11:24] Goldie Katsu: yes.
[11:24] Zha Ewry: Yep, and to keep your invenotry nealy arranged
[11:24] Goldie Katsu: Nothing like replacing an outfit with hair.
[11:24] Zha Ewry: *neatly
[11:25] Goldie Katsu: I've only done that once.
[11:25] Umeko Kawanishi: hmm i will have to practice. some of the clothing items i seem to need to take off before i can put on another
[11:25] Zha Ewry: Yeah, Goldie, we don't want to do that, the client bugs do that for us
[11:25] Lor Gynoid: Using Search for '(WORN@ can help too. :)
[11:25] Goldie Katsu: Well what I do is add a new one
[11:25] Zha Ewry: Yes
[11:25] Goldie Katsu: and then remove the old one if you have attachment mismatches
[11:25] Zha Ewry: Add first
[11:25] Lor Gynoid: '(WORN'*
[11:25] Zha Ewry: then take off
[11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Goldie sent the info, but can't "find" him with search, so you'll need to give him the LM
[11:25] Goldie Katsu: The hardest swap is from animal form to human again
[11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: sent the invitation*
[11:26] Lor Gynoid: Using an invisiprim can help. :)
[11:26] Umeko Kawanishi: yes i'm afriad of shape changes the most. :)
[11:26] Zha Ewry: Well, what I do for that is have a complete folder
[11:26] Zha Ewry: with all copy stuff, and a current shape and all
[11:26] Zha Ewry: And.. that I will replace
[11:26] Umeko Kawanishi: btw i don't understand the time change in SL. it's supposed to be PDT.
[11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: jhurliman: irony... after all that work to push the mono team into making their WebClient robust and we find out the MS implementation isn't good enough to do CAPS stuff
[11:26] Goldie Katsu: I usually just put clothing on first then skin then shape etc.
[11:27] Umeko Kawanishi: but now it's sunset?
[11:27] Zha Ewry: 4 hour cycle for the sun
[11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: has much <3 for MS
[11:27] Zha Ewry: Seperate fromt he clock
[11:27] Goldie Katsu: Region time isn't going to matche the hour.
[11:27] Lor Gynoid: SL day/night is a movable feast. :)
[11:27] Zha Ewry: and worse if the sim owner is having fun
[11:28] Goldie Katsu: So Saij, you were able to add blotto or not (I may have mispelled not sure.)
[11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: eventualy WIndlight will have sim-rez options. You get the owner's preferred settings as an asset when you TP/walk in
[11:28] Umeko Kawanishi: so the default is, 4 hours sun, 4 hours darkness, etc.?
[11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I invited but couldn't find the name in search so couldn't bring up a profile
[11:28] Lor Gynoid: Multiple suns of different colours will be fun. :)
[11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: so he may be a Groupy7 now but no LM
[11:28] Goldie Katsu: how odd.
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: ask him if he got the invite
[11:29] Goldie Katsu: oh...I can't get it to work. I'll do that.
[11:29] Zha Ewry: grins al ittle
[11:29] Zha Ewry: Nice to be a goddess
[11:29] Goldie Katsu: :)
[11:30] Lor Gynoid: Own land and gain the powers of a god. :)
[11:30] Zha Ewry: grins
[11:30] Zha Ewry: Zhactly
[11:30] Goldie Katsu: oooh...meeting
[11:30] Goldie Katsu: Talk more later.
[11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
[11:30] Zha Ewry: See you all at Zero's hours
[11:30] Goldie Katsu: Slowly internal projects move forward....
[11:30] Umeko Kawanishi: btw, zha-how do you guys type "grins" and "pause to..
[11:31] Goldie Katsu: type /me at the begining.
[11:31] Umeko Kawanishi: grins
[11:31] Goldie Katsu: (interjects even though she wasn't asked.)
[11:31] Umeko Kawanishi: ah cool thanks a lot goldie
[11:31] Goldie Katsu: works in WoW too
[11:31] Goldie Katsu: :)
[11:31] Lor Gynoid: It's all in the prefixes. :)
[11:31] Goldie Katsu: (My latest distraction between passover cleaning.)
[11:31] Umeko Kawanishi: SL is fun. I'm off now. Thanks all.
[11:32] Goldie Katsu: yeah it is.
[11:32] Goldie Katsu: Later!
[11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, that's a wrap for the transcript I think
[11:32] Zha Ewry: super
[11:32] Zha Ewry: Thanks Saij
[11:32] Zha Ewry: Later, all]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22

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