AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26

• [9:43] Dale Innis: Did I miss the meeting? :)
• [9:43] bonghit Schism: not yet
• [9:43] bonghit Schism: hasnt started yet i dont think
• [9:43] Dale Innis: ( Ah people just rezzing now :) )
• [9:43] Tess Linden: we're thinking about getting appearance and avatar data nailed down for login and teleport as one of the next design steps (which includes trust since content is involved) but not sure if there are other avenues that'll be more useful
• [9:43] Dale Innis: looks to see if he's sitting on anyone.
• [9:43] Tess Linden: i.e. IM/presence
• [9:44] JayR Cela: ok / I have an idea I woulfd like to sujest
• [9:44] Dale Innis: I've been trying to synthesize some of the asset thoughts: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP
• [9:44] Dale Innis: Suggest away. :)
• [9:45] JayR Cela: Sun Micro Systems / has Club Java / as a meeting place
• [9:45] Mirt Tenk: this is good JayR
• [9:45] JayR Cela: is in my profile > picks
• [9:45] Dale Innis: okay....
• [9:46] JayR Cela: well / I know this is sort of an IBM thing with LL
• [9:46] Dale Innis: More "open" than "IBM", I would hope. :)
• [9:46] JayR Cela: but i think we can attract more people
• [9:46] JayR Cela: if we approacj Sun Micro
• [9:46] JayR Cela: approach
• [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess, I've been wondering if getting a group IM model might be an easier and less controversial next step at least for public testing
• [9:46] Dale Innis: To use their venue, you mean?
• [9:47] JayR Cela: @Dale / yes
• [9:47] Tess Linden: Sai: I feel the same way
• [9:47] JayR Cela: is a place to meet
• [9:47] Tess Linden: JayR: sure, I think we should have meetings everywhere :)
• [9:47] Tess Linden: we often attend the Opensim office hours on Tuesdays at Wright plaza
• [9:47] JayR Cela: and they have quite a few people on their in-world staff
• [9:47] Dale Innis: Yeah we can definitely have other meetings elsewhere. :)
• [9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: if the AD can act as a central dispatcher for each virtual world youve visited (recently?) that would allow some sense of community between worlds even before inventory is available
• [9:48] Tess Linden: would be good to see how well the Sun protocols match up w/ OGP
• [9:48] Dale Innis: Sai/Tess: IM as a next POC is a good idea. I do think we should be thinking about the asset issues at the same time, though, and doing some design.
• [9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: dispatcher for the group IM, that is
• [9:48] Dale Innis: And we should bug the RealXtend folks to use the AD model!
• [9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: +1 Dale
• [9:49] Dale Innis:  :)
• [9:49] JayR Cela: RealXtend / baaaaaaaa !!!
• [9:49] Tess Linden: We need to do a lot of design, which'll be a lot more complicated for the trust work
• [9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: or at least, make it available as an option. OpenSIm isn't committed to the AD model at this point either
• [9:49] Tess Linden: We also have to implement and iterate on the OGP spec, which'll require a design
• [9:49] Dale Innis: Yeah, a point.
• [9:49] Tess Linden: I don't want us to lose focus
• [9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Fearless Leader (Enus)
• [9:50] Dale Innis: True; don't want to ignore important things too long either. :)
• [9:50] JayR Cela: well RealX is windows only
• [9:50] Dale Innis: So does someone want to sign up to start a page on IM for OGP?
• [9:50] Dale Innis: In teh Wikis?
• [9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Trust for inventory is a huge design issue. Getting group IM to work should be relatively trivial by comparison, I think
• [9:51] Dale Innis: Agreement.
• [9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM VAG?
• [9:51] Dale Innis: is not a big fan of VAGs, but sure. :) As long as the wiki page exists.
• [9:51] Teravus Ousley: is listening... may or may not talk :D
• [9:51] Tess Linden: Dale: I really like your wiki btw...
• [9:51] Dale Innis: oooh, ty! :)
• [9:52] Tess Linden: I wish there was a way to rate wiki's since theres several of them on trust lol
• [9:52] Dale Innis:  :) is true! I've been trying to at least find them all and point at them...
• [9:52] Teravus Ousley: thinks one thing that would help wikipedia is a 'vote on the accuracy of this article' button/control object
• [9:53] bonghit Schism: teravus i have a question about the latest trunk? is there any workound to where the avatr is placed on the region ?
• [9:53] Warthog Jun: accepted your inventory offer.
• [9:53] Dale Innis: ( yeah, voting up/down in Wiki pages is a fun idea :) )
• [9:53] bonghit Schism: definitely lol
• [9:54] Teravus Ousley: I've seen some issues occasionally with teleporting from and to regions with the old patch. Usually they're regionhandle issues.
• [9:54] Mahakala Omegamu: accepted your inventory offer.
• [9:54] Dale Innis: (So far it doesn't actually look like the trust part of the asset part of the OGP will have to be very complicated; most of the hard stuff is domain-internal. I think!)
• [9:54] bonghit Schism: accepted your inventory offer.
• [9:54] Tess Linden: Dale: can you elaborate?
• [9:55] Dale Innis: Well, is in Wiki :) but basically
• [9:55] Tess Linden: oh, we should also talk about region handles
• [9:55] Dale Innis: all I've found that has to be in OGP is
• [9:55] Dale Innis: "who are you?" and (maybe) "what permission model(s) do you support?"
• [9:55] Dale Innis: And the latter is even optional.
• [9:55] Dale Innis: The hard question is more about how you actually transfer the assset itself, but that's not a trust thing.
• [9:56] Dale Innis: Talking about region handles would be easier. :)
• [9:57] Teravus Ousley: essentially a region handle is the position in meters of the region's 1,1,1 (0,0,0?) position in meters on the 'grid space'
• [9:57] Teravus Ousley: err.. X, and Y
• [9:58] Teravus Ousley: there's some bit operations to stick it into a 64 bit number, but that's essentially it.
• [9:58] Dale Innis: Does it have to be, in OGP? Or is it just a cookie for the target region to interpret however it wants?
• [9:58] Teravus Ousley: Now, OGP doesn't really use region handles.. but the client does.
• [9:58] Dale Innis: 'cause it would be too bad to bake euclidean planarity intot he OGP
• [9:58] Dale Innis: ah :)
• [9:59] Teravus Ousley: OGP uses region X and region Y, and the client makes the assumption that you mean a specific regionhandle
• [9:59] Tess Linden: sounds like an implementation detail then? the design is straight forward?
• [10:00] Tess Linden: region handles should be optional
• [10:00] Dale Innis: We should write that down somewhere. :)
• [10:00] Dale Innis: ( he said over and over )
• [10:01] Tess Linden: hurry! somebody go implement it in the open source client
• [10:01] Dale Innis: chuckles.
• [10:01] Teravus Ousley: isn't sure how the Linden sims are configured.. however.. OpenSimulator has always been configured where a gridspace is 256m2. That means configuration for a sim in opensimulator is a gridspace x, y meters / 256
• [10:02] Dale Innis: Has anyone signed up to start a page / discussion on IM interop and design and requirements? I'd be glad to start the page, but I don't know enough to get actual content right.
• [10:02] Dale Innis: Those "256"s shouldn't be baked into the protocol, though, presumably?
• [10:02] Teravus Ousley: 1048832/1048832 (ogp) - 4097/4097 (OpenSimulator)
• [10:03] Teravus Ousley: it isn't. It's just set up in opensimulator that way to make it simpler to configure. With no chance of region overlap
• [10:03] Dale Innis: nods.
• [10:03] Tess Linden: in the OGP draft 3, there's a 'region/info' resource that will give you back information on the region, of which there are x and y fields, and second Life & opensim should both support the same format
• [10:03] Teravus Ousley: notes that often times it isn't something people are familiar with.
• [10:04] Flight Band: All Go
• [10:04] Dale Innis: We have a draft *3*?
• [10:04] Dale Innis: is so out of touch.
• [10:05] Bartholomew Kleiber: 3?
• [10:05] Teravus Ousley: So bonghit: if you teleported from a region running the older patch and the region X and Y were not multiples of 256, then you will teleport to a void.
• [10:05] Tess Linden: not released yet, coming soon! probably this week
• [10:05] Dale Innis: Was draft 2 released?
• [10:05] Dale Innis: riffles through the Wiki
• [10:06] Tess Linden: yes https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Protocol
• [10:06] Dale Innis: oooooo
• [10:06] Dale Innis: goes to fix pointers
• [10:06] Tess Linden: what *should* it be?
• [10:06] Tess Linden: besides optional
• [10:07] Dale Innis: ( Which "it"? )
• [10:07] Bartholomew Kleiber: blushes.
• [10:07] Bartholomew Kleiber: I also didnt see it.
• [10:07] Tess Linden: region handles
• [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: If you have problems finding things like taht, try looking here first: [1]
• [10:07] Dale Innis: ( Ah. :) I don't know enough about how region handles are used to know what they should be. )
• [10:07] Dale Innis: Ty Sai!
• [10:09] Teravus Ousley: ah, well, currently, "I think" the client uses it to place objects and avatar in the visual space.. as well as cache objects. It gets sent out via the UDP protocol in many places.. and if the client doesn't understand the regionhandle that the simulator sends, you get message like 'object update from unknown region'.
• [10:10] Dale Innis: ( The AWG Groupies page still has a pointer to OGP draft 1... fixing... )
• [10:10] Tess Linden: but why multiply by 256?
• [10:10] Tess Linden: thanks Dale :)
• [10:10] Teravus Ousley: in opensimulator we made the choice to do that so that configuring for the end user is easier.
• [10:11] Teravus Ousley: (though, I want to add an option to specify units per grid space)
• [10:12] Dale Innis: would love to see WIki pages on region handles, and on requirements / design for IM interop.
• [10:13] Mahakala Omegamu: Does anybody know if there will be any restrictions on the number of opensim grids LL will provide access to?
• [10:14] Dale Innis: The number? I doubt that decision's anywhere having been made yet.
• [10:14] Dale Innis: Probably one to start with. :)
• [10:14] Tess Linden: right now you just have to sign up for the beta and connect to aditi
• [10:14] Teravus Ousley: it seems to be the other way. You type in an address to a region domain, and LL will send you there. If the region domain trusts LL, then it sends you off... once you're a gridnaut.
• [10:14] Dale Innis: Oh right sorry, yeah for the beta anyone signed up.
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I don't see what there would be alimit. Its a clientside issue to request a connection to a specific grid. The AD just takes the client request and forwards it to the grid. The AD doesn't have to store every grid in the universe
• [10:15] Dale Innis: Well, once there are things with more value than AV names involved, it will get a little more complex than that. :)
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: but that's another question.
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Just TP will require nothing more than exists now
• [10:16] Dale Innis: Yeah, were you asking about the current TP beta, Maha, or fuller real-live connections once those are working?
• [10:16] Teravus Ousley: Essentially, in OpenSimulator, RegionHandle = ((x * RegionSize) << 32) | (y * RegionSize). In OGP, RegionHandle = ((x) << 32) | (y)
• [10:17] Mahakala Omegamu: I was talking more about real world deployment of OGP by LL. I'm curious about business opinions LL has on how big this might get for my clients.
• [10:17] Dale Innis: Yeah we're not the right group to ask about Official Opinionsn on that. :) I personally would expect it to be huge.
• [10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: For pure Ruth Goodness (TM), there's no practical limit. You could TP everywhere. For assets, and the like, there would be limits bound by trust
• [10:18] Mahakala Omegamu: So, if LL no longer trusts you, your out?
• [10:18] Dale Innis: No one's going to want to TP anywhere nude and inventoriless. :) So it's the latter that matters.
• [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: its a matter of who trusts LL at least as much
• [10:18] Dale Innis: No, more that if LL doesn't trust some other grid, LL won't release any of the assets in its care to that grid.
• [10:18] LaPiscean Liberty: that also means agreeing to SL TOS if Truswted
• [10:19] Dale Innis: Not necessarily exactly the SL TOS.
• [10:19] Teravus Ousley: Right. The region domain must trust LL's agent domain... since it doesn't provide any authentication information besides the fact that it says the person logged into there.
• [10:19] Dale Innis: That's for the lawyers to figure out. :)
• [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: or creating a category of inventory permissions where "Wild Wild West Grid" is OK
• [10:19] Dale Innis: Yeah, that too.
• [10:19] Dale Innis: Hard to get all the nuances right in chat. :)
• [10:19] Mahakala Omegamu: Will it work the other way around too?
• [10:19] Tess Linden: its more that, if you don't trust that grid, you wouldn't want to send your assets to the grid without protection
• [10:20] Dale Innis: Seems likely.
• [10:20] Mahakala Omegamu: I can access and share resources to LL from my open grid?
• [10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: if LL trusts you
• [10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: and the reverse, if your grid trusts LL
• [10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I expect mutual trust for most things
• [10:20] Tess Linden: also, you might trust that grid, but the person who sold you your shirt may not
• [10:20] Dale Innis: Strongly suggest reading the Wiki: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model
• [10:21] Mahakala Omegamu: Thanks Dale
• [10:21] Dale Innis: We could retype the whole thing here, but it'd take awhile. :))
• [10:21] Dale Innis: yw
• [10:21] Graph Weymann: hello
• [10:21] Dale Innis: Also https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model_UseCases https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP
• [10:21] Rex Cronon: hi
• [10:21] Dale Innis: Hi Graph!
• [10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Graph, we talking trust again
• [10:21] Dale Innis: Hm that came out as all one URL lol
• [10:21] Dale Innis: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model_UseCases
• [10:21] Graph Weymann: Yes. Don't :)
• [10:21] Dale Innis: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP
• [10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: but a non url between it to prevent that
• [10:22] Dale Innis: Let's get back to IM interop.
• [10:22] Dale Innis: Not that trust won't rear it's ugly head there too. :))
• [10:22] Dale Innis: (its)
• [10:22] LaPiscean Liberty: Like i see if your a grid useing SL money ot econimy then you may be trusted and if your na grid with your own economy then you may not be
• [10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: well it becomes an issue of trusting the AD to forward the data to the right person
• [10:23] Dale Innis: LaP: it's not really about which economy is being used, I don't think.
• [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: though, I'm wondering if the caps model Graph is familiar with could allow for a second level of securty for messages...
• [10:23] Dale Innis: Sai: and to not save all IM passing through and post it to the web... :)
• [10:23] Teravus Ousley: at least for OpenSimulator... it doesn't really care about if an IM is from a valid user currently.. it uses XMLRPC between the regions independant of the grid (besides using the grid to find out which region the destination user is in) to send the messages.
• [10:23] LaPiscean Liberty: im saying its a matter of signing into the tos of sl and agreeing before anything of this nature can exist
• [10:23] Warthog Jun: question
• [10:24] Dale Innis: LaP: something like the SL ToS probably, yes.
• [10:24] Warthog Jun: how does one use sl money on open grid
• [10:24] Dale Innis: answer
• [10:24] Dale Innis:  :)
• [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: or the equivalent for the open grid
• [10:24] Dale Innis: Money interop hasn't been worked on much yet. That'll be another very interesting question!
• [10:24] Tess Linden: I don't think everyone's read all the wiki's yet, its a lot to gulp down
• [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: could have more than one possible trust agreement and more than one trust agreement between the same two parties for different things
• [10:24] Teravus Ousley: Warthog: talk to Which linden for more information on that. He/She's been working on some great ideas in that space.
• [10:24] Graph Weymann: it seems to me that if IM requires a "trust model" you're doing it wrong
• [10:25] Teravus Ousley: Warthog: Which has office hours.
• [10:25] Dale Innis: Graph, how would you do IM with no trust required?
• [10:25] Graph Weymann: all you need is a strong identifier for (the proxy for, i.e. the agent domain(?) of) the target user
• [10:25] JayR Cela: Linden $ are worthless in other domains
• [10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Graph how would you set up group IM between grids, given the AD is doing the authentication otherwise?
• [10:25] Dale Innis: Right, but you have to trust the AD of the target user, yes?
• [10:25] Bartholomew Kleiber: I see an OGP Stock Exchange coming for currencies ...
• [10:25] Graph Weymann: no, yuou don't think of it that way :)
• [10:25] Mahakala Omegamu: I think looking to jabber for a cross server IM architecture would be beneficial
• [10:26] Dale Innis: Barth: yeah that'd be fun! :)
• [10:26] Dale Innis: Graph: Yes I do. :)
• [10:26] Graph Weymann: that AD is *what you are talking to*. there is no trust, it is just the specified destination.
• [10:26] Bartholomew Kleiber: hmm, come to think of it ... I have to call my VC :-)!
• [10:26] Dale Innis: Graph: from the end-user's view, he's IMing a person, not an AD.
• [10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: right
• [10:26] Graph Weymann: yes, so?
• [10:26] Dale Innis: That's the viewpoint that I try to take in thinking about trust.
• [10:26] JayR Cela: Jabber would be a good option
• [10:26] Graph Weymann: you need to strongly associate ADs with identities
• [10:27] Dale Innis: So you say "that AD is what yyou are talking to" and I disagree. :)
• [10:27] Graph Weymann: beyond that, nothing is required
• [10:27] JayR Cela: is open source and cross platform
• [10:27] Mahakala Omegamu: Jabber already handles many similar problems that we would eventually face with IM interop
• [10:27] Graph Weymann: you don't need "IM trust" you need "AD trust" which is really remembering identities, ideally
• [10:27] Mahakala Omegamu: Really, you can imagine IM services like 1-D metaverses ;)
• [10:27] JayR Cela: yep
• [10:27] Graph Weymann: SL already has calling card objects, that is the basis of such a system
• [10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: the way I'v been thinking of it is that a user IM's a group or user via his own AD and include the other user's AD as part of hte target. That other AD forwards the message
• [10:27] JayR Cela: no fuss no muss
• [10:27] Dale Innis: That's fine, Graph; it's still a trust model. :) You believe that AD x is really the AD for a given agent. Maybe that's all we need.
• [10:28] Graph Weymann: the calling card can strongly identify the target AD
• [10:28] Mahakala Omegamu: And jabber can form connections among disperate IM protocols already , "bridges" I think they are called
• [10:28] JayR Cela: yep
• [10:28] JayR Cela: works with everything
• [10:28] Dale Innis: JayR: yeah, Jabber might be a very good base. Someone should compare what it can do with the OGP IM requirements. Make a Wiki page! :)
• [10:28] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes I am in favor of XMPP too
• [10:28] Mahakala Omegamu: In fact XMPP as a whole might be good
• [10:28] Graph Weymann: (by strongly identify I mean that it has sufficient information to deliver a message only to the intended target)
• [10:28] Mahakala Omegamu: You read my mind Barth ;)
• [10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: JayR maybe. I kow that Zha and Zero have discussed this quite a bit. No existing protocol does quite what they need, quote both of them
• [10:29] Mahakala Omegamu: XMPP is the generic messeging architecture used by jabber and cloud computing
• [10:29] Bartholomew Kleiber: smiles.
• [10:29] Dale Innis: Ahh, they just want the fun of making up a new one! :)
• [10:29] Mahakala Omegamu: It might be a common protocol for many of the interop problems we face
• [10:29] JayR Cela: well / you could require password
• [10:29] Graph Weymann: oh, for anyone who doesn't know who the ___ I am, I'm A Capabilities Guy :)
• [10:29] Mahakala Omegamu: I'd hate to have a new language for every problem we come up with
• [10:29] Dale Innis: Maha: cloud computing in what sense?
• [10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: you ned to create your vanity group for tags like that
• [10:29] Dale Innis: goes slightly AFK due to a phone call.
• [10:29] Mahakala Omegamu: Dale: Messaging among large connected networks of machines
• [10:30] Mahakala Omegamu: For abstract services, etc.
• [10:30] Teravus Ousley: doesn't have an issue with XMPP except that it relies on appropriating a central XMPP server to a domain. If you want to have a noncentral system, you need several domains.
• [10:30] Dale Innis: ( Maha: ty. I know Jabber uses XMPP; I'm not aware of which actual cloud-computing installations currently active use it. Do you have an example? THis is a tangent :) )
• [10:31] Mahakala Omegamu: Yah, one second, theres a distributed rendering project that uses it, let me dig it up
• [10:31] Dale Innis: ( ty, no rush )
• [10:32] Teravus Ousley: notes that additionally XMPP was designed with the idea that the client would manage some options with regards to the list of contacts/friends.
• [10:32] Tess Linden: Sai: were there any docs written up on the this stuff that Zha & Zero talked about?
• [10:32] Teravus Ousley: notes that the simulator currently does a lot of that in the 'Linden' scenario
• [10:32] Dale Innis: Tess, you dreamer. :)
• [10:32] Tess Linden: doh
• [10:32] Bartholomew Kleiber: Teravus: this could be proxied, maybe.
• [10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: not that I know of. Zha just commented to me one day that she and Zero had talked about it, and she'd checked what zero was saying and he's right: nothing that exists does quite what they want
• [10:33] Dale Innis: Maybe we can ask Zero today at his Office Hours
• [10:33] Teravus Ousley: Barthomew, potentially. I was looking at using XMPP over BOSH for it.
• [10:34] Bartholomew Kleiber: Sai: I didnt expect to find one product fitting it all. But if it's 80% and OpenSource it's still better than writing from scratch.
• [10:34] Teravus Ousley: The current implementation came down to time for me. My time is limited and the community needed working instant messages, so I did a quick implementation in XMLRPC
• [10:35] Dale Innis: XMPP isn't a product, it's a protocol.... :)
• [10:35] Bartholomew Kleiber: Dale: ty ;-)!
• [10:35] Dale Innis: puts on Nitpicker hat.
• [10:35] Bartholomew Kleiber: I catch you next time!
• [10:35] Dale Innis:  :)
• [10:35] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
• [10:35] JayR Cela: good byee everyone
• [10:36] Dale Innis: waves to JayR
• [10:36] Rex Cronon: bye jayr
• [10:36] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
• [10:36] Tess Linden: bye!
• [10:36] Dale Innis: So if we want to try IM next, we should start writing down ideas about how.
• [10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: so, I was thinking, as a near term thing, we could implement an IM forwarding mechanims in the AD just to give a feel for cross-grid community, and start workign out the details from what pops up by trying to implement the CURRENT design using the AD
• [10:36] Dale Innis: sounds kewl :)
• [10:36] Dale Innis: Including group-IM, or just one-to-one?
• [10:36] JayR Cela: nice talk / i close with saying Jabber would be a good choice for inter-op IM
• [10:37] JayR Cela: see ya
• [10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: one to one should be easier than group, but not by much, I suspect, cause the AD would be the forwarding mechanism for both
• [10:37] Dale Innis: nods.
• [10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: take care JayR
• [10:37] Dale Innis: How many ADs have to know about group membership?
• [10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha and I talked about it as sorta the live equivalent of email. You rout your email and eventually it ends up with your ISP and then to you when you get online
• [10:38] Tess Linden: groups are tricky... can you be in the same group but in different agent domains?
• [10:38] Saijanai Kuhn: that's an interesting question... can you?
• [10:38] Dale Innis: But with email every message contains the entire To: and CC: lists. We probably don't want to do that with IMs?
• [10:38] Tess Linden: I think so
• [10:38] Dale Innis: Yeah, I think we'd want to allow that if we can.
• [10:38] Tess Linden: thats just group IM's
• [10:39] Dale Innis: Right, but should every group IM have to contain the entire group membership list, for replying? Seems bad. :)
• [10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: wouldnt think it would need to.
• [10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: But, do you have a central server for a group or is there a way of distributing the load
• [10:39] Dale Innis: zactly
• [10:40] Dale Innis: Does every IM have to flow through the group's "owning" AD, or can it be distributed?
• [10:40] Dale Innis: Which is why I asked how many ADs know about group membership. :)
• [10:40] Graph Weymann: good question there.
• [10:40] Saijanai Kuhn: well, for group IM to behave like SL group IM, you would either need a central server to track every person's online status, or just forward it to their AD which would already know
• [10:41] Bartholomew Kleiber: groups may be AD specific :-/
• [10:41] Graph Weymann: what's the final authority on group membership?
• [10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: good question there, too
• [10:41] Tess Linden: if its distributed, then every agent domain that has a person belonging to that group will be responsible for all its members
• [10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: sounds combinatorial to me
• [10:42] Tess Linden: well -- thanks everyone, this was an interesting discussion for me
• [10:42] Tess Linden: I have to run
• [10:42] Rex Cronon: bye tess
• [10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: KK thanks Tess. You're a lifesaver
• [10:42] Tess Linden: nah :P bye! see ya next time
• [10:42] Dale Innis:  :) kk!
• [10:42] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye Tess
• [10:42] Dale Innis: might throw something onto the WIki about IM requirements.