User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-10-01

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:00]	:FORM: Animation Override v.1: 7% memory free
[15:00]	Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
	[15:00]  Connected
[15:00]	Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/107/42/22
[15:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hiya Grant!
[15:01]	Grant Linden watches the world rez oh so slowly
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	unfortunately certain people don't seem to understand the difference between asking questions to stimulate discussion and making a firm proposal :S
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted waves. Ahoy!
[15:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's annoying how people jump on vague comments and out-of-date documents and try to turn them into some grand scheme to cripple users.
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	lo McCabe :)
[15:01]	Pounce: Geneko would like to pounce you. Say [Yes] to accept.
[15:02]	Geneko pounces Grant !
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy McCabe!
[15:02]	Grant Linden:	heh
[15:02]	Pier Jaecies:	y
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	This is wrong. :3
[15:02]	Grant Linden:	Hello Genko!
[15:02]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Charlette :)
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	hey there :)
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Kippie :)
[15:03]	Grant Linden:	hello Squirrel!
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood:	yellow
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy kippie, hiro!
[15:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hey everybody!
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	hey Kippie :)
[15:03]	Pier Jaecies:	Hey!
[15:03]	Grant Linden:	hello Charlette
[15:03]	Charlette Proto:	hi Grant
[15:04]	Grant Linden:	so, the topic of this weeks office hours is: "What would you remove from the Second Life viewer UI?"
[15:04]	Charlette Proto:	hey squirell are you at all bothered that you tail goes through the chair
[15:04]	Tinker Toll:	Hello everyone
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy tinker :)
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's remove Search! And money! And Inventory :D
[15:04]	Grant Linden has tail issues as well - you just get used to it :)
[15:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	Building chairs than can accomadate a tail isn't easy.
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted snickers
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	I've seen it done in real life though.
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Building a chair that can accomidate wings, however....
[15:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	The user would probably be a good thing to remove, would make things much easier
[15:05]	Hiro Pendragon:	Whoa, did I just change shirt without standing up? that's new.
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	hehe a taskbar below top menu could replace the menu at the bottom (not intuitive to most users)
[15:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	how long have you been wearing the shirt Hiro? :D
[15:06]	Hiro Pendragon:	I don't sit a lot ;)
[15:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	clothes don't get dirty in SL thatnk god
[15:06]	Hiro Pendragon:	I was just wearing my last shirt for today. :)
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well the Buy L$ button certainly isn't really useful for me.
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	I only bought L$ once, and not from LL,
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	but the "former" SLX.
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	hehe big spender
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	so, if you could, what would you remove from the Second Life viewer UI?
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd prolly junk the map; it's full of bugs, not very useful, hasn't scaled well with SL, and is more of a power tool toy now
[15:07]	Hiro Pendragon:	I think there's a meta-question.
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	the menu at the bottom
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	the map?
[15:07]	Mm Alder:	I kind of thought the title was one of those inflammatory topics to draw a crowd. I didn't think you were serious.
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, not the minimap but the map map
[15:07]	Hiro Pendragon:	It's not about this-and-that, it's about identifying whole different use-cases.
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	I like the map, but it's not very useful.
[15:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, bottom button bar for me too I think
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Probably wouldn't hurt me much if it's yanked.
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	the map would be useful if names showed up onhover
[15:08]	Hiro Pendragon:	Developers will want one set of functions, casual users another, shop-and-clubber social types another, people coming in just for one corporate client another, business another.
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	It does?
[15:08]	Aimee Trescothick:	to be replaced with something optional that took up less space
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	yep scrap the map on defauld
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	customizable toolbar
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	with just icons
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	save so much space
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	proper toolbar instead of the few items at the bottom
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	define proper
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	am I the only person the map generally works fine for then? :D
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's summarize this as "Remove the things I personally don't like or find useful, but leave the things I do". ;D
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	every pixel is presious on a laptop
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:09]	Hiro Pendragon:	No, Aimee, but I think talk about this-and-that feature is missing the big picture.
[15:09]	Grant Linden:	does anyone use chat bubbles?
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	not me
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Nope
[15:09]	Kippie Friedkin:	Nope
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	I did once... ages ago...
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well... it's hard to see who's talking behind me if I use chat bubbles but!
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, I turn them on when I want to see if someone is typing
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	nope Chat history
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	If you can have chat bubbles and chat console at the SAME TIME it would be great!
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	they're not very easy on the eyes
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	when they have an AO on
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	chat history should be on by default I think
[15:10]	Mm Alder:	I'll bet someone does. And they can't live without it.
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	And yes, the bubbles need to have a smaller size.
[15:10]	Grant Linden:	currently I have both chat history and bubbles on
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	can have chat bubbles and history winodw?
[15:10]	Grant Linden:	it's a mess
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	is that close enough?
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	yikes
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	chat bubbles are ugly make SL look like Goggle Lively
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	History window doesn't autohide.
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	I honestly don't think chat bubbles would be missed, though
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would...
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	chat bubbles are useable with maybe 3 people in a slow conversation
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	I agree
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	But it could be remedied by having a small "bubble" icon displayed whenever someone says something...
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	but the make the world look ugly
[15:11]	Grant Linden:	how about the "edit" features on prims you can't edit?
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah; chat history does the job better; how do you mean grant?
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh yeah!
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	that would be good like in voice
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe make it "Properties" instead.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick:	could maybe do the ... thing the chat bubble does after the name tag?
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	the dot could flash
[15:12]	Grant Linden:	that might be handy
[15:12]	Grant Linden:	so the chat bubble would indicate a speaker
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	integrate it with the voice dot
[15:12]	Mm Alder:	You've got to make it all CONFIGURABLE.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	nope just a dit turning red would do
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth isn't in Voice Chat because Vivox client doesn't know his microphone is monaural.
[15:13]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, that's only part of it.
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth is currently under Linux... >_<
[15:13]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, what's the rest?
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	*pat pat*
[15:13]	Grant Linden:	we do tend to make many things configurable, but a new user needs a useful default setting
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Most users don't configure, they just use the defaults
[15:13]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, it's about realizing that there are different use cases. Customizable UI covers a couple of them, but not something like, the casual user.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	chat history on by default then
[15:14]	Hiro Pendragon:	Customizable UI is great for developers and for developers' clients.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Come to think of it I've never seen a usecase.
[15:14]	Hiro Pendragon:	But the average user we need something way simpler.
[15:14]	Mm Alder:	You have a GUI that could have so much versatility, but it's as clumsy as MS Office
[15:14]	Hiro Pendragon:	I think the "what should we cut?" is the wrong approach.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	So we'll implement ribbons in SL?
[15:14]	Hiro Pendragon:	It makes a wrong assumption - that there should be one-size-fit-all viewer.
[15:14]	Hiro Pendragon:	That fundamental assumption is incorrect, and everything else follows from it.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	I wouldn't call it an "approach", Hiro. More like a seed for discussion about what is most useful in the UI.
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	first principle of configuration could be to change settings directly from the gadget if visible (contextual)
[15:15]	Grant Linden:	I am not sure that endless customization is a solution either
[15:15]	Hiro Pendragon:	It is, Jacek. Look at the website. It's ingrained in LL's philosophy that one SL for all cases.
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	you could maybe put an anonymous viewer metric in temporarily to see how much people are using chat bubbles for example
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	rightclick configuration
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	shh aimee, that'd be sensible research
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	would give something more concrete than "do you use them?"
[15:16]	Grant Linden:	metrics are often the best guidance, true
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth will be turning on chat bubbles to inflate the metrics then. ^_^
[15:16]	Hiro Pendragon:	Metrics only measure what exists, it gives zero feedback on what *should* exist and doesn't.
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	would need to be in a release client rather than an RC though, RC would distort the stats towards "power" users
[15:16]	Mm Alder:	You have to be more creative. How about widgets that minimize themselves until you fly over them?
[15:16]	Grant Linden:	this is true, Hiro, and we need to design for the future
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick:	oh yes, absolutely hiro
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	yes that makes sense counted at start of session and perhaps a time interval
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Would be kinda hard to use with a tablet...
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although who uses tablets anyway?
[15:17]	Hiro Pendragon:	Rather than worrying about how to bandaid the current viewer, we should be reinventing it.
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	tablet?
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	I use a tablet
[15:17]	Mm Alder:	How about inventory that looks like a department store?
[15:17]	Hiro Pendragon:	The functions are all there in XML, so it's not a ton of work.
[15:17]	Grant Linden:	I can't get SL to run well on my tablet
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Easy to say, Hiro. ;)
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth has an external one. ^.^
[15:17]	Hiro Pendragon:	No, easy to do. Just takes time.
[15:18]	Hiro Pendragon:	1. Look at use cases, both existing and desired.
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	For things like building, the tablet is awful. Too sensitive. I haven't taken the time to customize its settings.
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite. Many things of the SL UI is still hardcoded.
[15:18]	Hiro Pendragon:	2. Come up with what features are important for what uses.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'll look forward to your contributions to Imprudence then, shall I? :)
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	well, some of us are trying to, heh
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	forget the tablet (too few users)
[15:18]	Hiro Pendragon:	3. Design browsers in accordance with the use cases.
[15:18]	Hiro Pendragon:	4. THEN add new functions that don't exist.
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right, so. Back to the topic?
[15:19]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, everyone has his own use case. You can't anticipate them all.
[15:19]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, disagree.
[15:19]	Hiro Pendragon:	That's what focus groups are for, for one.
[15:19]	Grant Linden:	we do have a topic
[15:19]	Hiro Pendragon:	Secondly, we can assume people will use virtual worlds in ways similar to that they use The INternet, or gaming, or business.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	use cases are a difficult thing all heuristics and walkthroughs are
[15:20]	Hiro Pendragon:	Charlette, we have years of heuristics.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	whose case mine or yours
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	But Web, Gaming and Business are kinda broad...
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Grant, when you said "Remove edit features for objects you can't edit", how did you mean?
[15:20]	Hiro Pendragon:	We know there's gamers. We know there's business / educators. We know there's developers. We know there are casual users who leave because the UI is too steep to learn.
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	I'm aware that I use many functions very differently to other users
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	You know in the pie menu there's and "edit" option that's there?
[15:21]	Grant Linden:	I mean that we display greyed out funtionality to users in the edit window
[15:21]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko, they are broad and yet I believe the behaviors for each are pretty solid.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	On objects you can't edit it's a bit misleading... although, it's not like anyone would be confused by it...
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	the radial (pie) menu should be like in Maya - everything in it
[15:21]	Grant Linden:	it is just more clutter
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	So instead, it should be... not there? Blank space where there are grayed out things now?
[15:21]	Mm Alder:	I would like to be able to edit pie menus.
[15:21]	Hiro Pendragon:	Web is point-and-click. Game is keyboard and mouse dynamics, Business expects interoperability / Operating System like.
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick:	should maybe change to inspect and show some sort of object inspector?
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	but you can still move them
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Some games are entirely mouse-driven.
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	radial menus are the most efficient for stuff like this
[15:22]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko, indeed. But I was talking about 3-D gaming, sorry.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Web pages and apps can have keyboard interaction too.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, 3D gaming.
[15:22]	Hiro Pendragon:	People don't come on 3-D platforms to 2-D game.
[15:22]	Grant Linden:	an object inspector would meet most user's needs
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	I was thinking more of hitting edit on someone else's obect you can't do anything with besides examine
[15:22]	Grant Linden:	yes
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like, click to move and stuff. And right click + drag to rotate camera...
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	What would this object inspector do?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Come to think of it right click + drag doesn't do much in SL.
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	also some functionality isn't greyed out even though it won't work
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:23]	Grant Linden:	provide useful information on who created it and maybe a more useful description by the creator
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	right click and drag could be used for navigation
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Who knows there's a "tooltip" option hidden under the meus?
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	So separate out the "object inspection" from the "object editting" functionality?
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	yes, Jacek
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	interesting idea
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be be interesting, yes
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	reduce complexity
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, could consider one of Prok's suggestions, being able to move stuff around without the edit window up
[15:24]	Hiro Pendragon:	I think object inspection has univeral appeal.
[15:24]	Mm Alder:	Your complexity is my versatility. :-)
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Certainly the build floater is quite large, and most of it is not needed most of the time
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	do you think, a lot of properties are in the edit
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	you can move stuff without the edit window open
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, not in the same way though
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not very accurately, Squirrel :(
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	I actually thoguht that was a good suggestion, aimee
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	for my liking the edit dialog is all wrong
[15:25]	Hiro Pendragon:	Speaking of click and drag navigation, I think double-click on the ground should be automatic goto. Standard web dynamic.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	The build floater can be folded. But if it's folded well...
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Aimee -- yeah, that was a good one
[15:25]	Grant Linden:	SL's complexity is the barrier to adoption and thus to new users
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	it's not of much use.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	the attributes should be all available without looking through tabs
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick nods, Prok does come up with some useful ideas, sadly they tend to get lost in the noise :(
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hiro: Double click to auto-pilot is already in the debug options.
[15:26]	Hiro Pendragon:	Grant, exactly. And there's no way to bandaid the viewer enough to make it useful for all users.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, that's the strange thing about the build floater (well, one of them) -- object inspection is almost like a "hidden feature". You have to expand the floater to see it
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	how useful is object inspection?
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	useless
[15:26]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko - debugging doesn't help anyone but power-users. It's a web-standard feature, it should be default.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Very useful
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	who needs to know the author etc
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	See who owns it, who made it, for a few things
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	for what?
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	how about offering a list of things that one can do and based on what you choose on said list, reconfigure the UI for the given task ?
[15:26]	Aimee Trescothick:	main thing I use it for is "How many prims?" or "who made it"
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	but who cares
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	So you can go buy one for yourself, Charlette :D
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Besides, web standard is single-click.
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or contact them for customer support.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Double clicking to navigate is kinda... weird.
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	"I want to try out clothes" "I want to build something" "I want to script" "I want to explore" "I want to go shopping" ..
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Or annoy them if they didn't actually create the object, they just made the packaging system...)
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	double click to navigate gets to be a problem once you're moving around on prim ground
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	making and enjoying things is so much more important that who made every prim inside it
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	are you trying to move or interact with the prim?
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	grant: what would you do with the tools floater?
[15:28]	Hiro Pendragon:	Aimee, indeed, and I have another suggestion - let a touch-default setting option be "move to here"
[15:28]	Baba Yamamoto:	oh god... remove the avatars from the UI... my eyes!
[15:28]	Hiro Pendragon:	on the pull-down with touch, etc.
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not much problem, if the prim doesn't have an touch_* event then clicking can be interpreted as navigation.
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	mm, that's an interesting idea
[15:28]	Grant Linden:	so, if this table in front of us was for sale *somewhere* in world, why shouldn't the SL system *know* that and if I click on it I should be able to purchase a copy from here
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	make the floater into a radial menu like Maya with icons
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	"It seems you are looking at this prim here. Would you like to [see who made it] or [edit it] or [take it into your inventory] or would you like to [random thing here]?
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Icons are good.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	instead of the tabbed thing
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Urk?
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	the seller would probably prefer you visit their shop? :D
[15:29]	Grant Linden:	but why, if they make the sale?
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Because then you'd see their other stuff, and buy it too
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	because if you go in the shop you might buy the table and the chairs
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	(presumably)
[15:30]	Baba Yamamoto:	I have a question.. is this conversation good for anything. Does LL have what it takes to remove a feature or are we talking about hiding things?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	buying should be much more visible
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Probably both.
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	they've removed stuff without asking before :)
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:30]	Hiro Pendragon:	Grant, it sounds like a database nightmare, especially when we incorporate multiple grids.
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	feature removal is a difficult task baba... once you put it out there, it's a commitment
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	this table is being sold at [slurl]. Click [here] to go there and buy your own table.
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	this is preferable :D
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	for anybody
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick remember the removal of the friends drop down from the map and shudders lol
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	are we adding or removing things in UI
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe yeah... LL never really tells you they're removing things
[15:31]	Hiro Pendragon:	Allow me to propose a counter-suggestion. Add to an objects details a landmark that can be set.
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	they just surprise you
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	lets hide them from the user
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	mind you if, someone bought a table in my living room, I'd want a cut of the sale :D
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	haha
[15:32]	Grant Linden:	as long as you can't buy my tail off my body
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli grins
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood buys Grant, tail inclusive :p
[15:32]	Hiro Pendragon:	There is simply no paradigm for it on the web.
[15:32]	Hiro Pendragon:	Nor in gaming.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	We're doing where no world has done before here.
[15:33]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, why do you care?
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Boldly.
[15:33]	Baba Yamamoto:	I don't think SL needs anything removed from teh UI so much as a major update and reorganization.. and improved skinning so we can change the look and feel on the fly
[15:33]	Hiro Pendragon:	Because it's difficult to make a case for a new feature that has no precedent.
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	And switch languages too maybe?
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, you could and some form of making items in the object inventory public
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	what about the price and its changes in case of buying from the item itself
[15:33]	Mm Alder:	"New" doesn't need a precedent, Hiro.
[15:33]	Hiro Pendragon:	Baba, indeed, skinning's essential.
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	we are adding things again
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	so even if I don't own the table I could open a landmark in it's inventory if it was marked as public
[15:34]	Grant Linden:	well, we have discussed "calling cards" as a target for removal
[15:34]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, I'd like to quote Marv Goldschmitt. Everything new is 90% old.
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh yes, please
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	be rid of them soon
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's okay if adding things can lead to less clutter on the interface.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	OK
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	Calling cards are kinda hard to translate too.
[15:34]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, only in hindsight. :-)
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	they don't erally do anything useful, clutter my inv... would much rather have an improved friends list
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	And why aren't the called Name Cards?
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted also has a 50K inv, so I'm slightly biased there on teh clutter part
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	because they are a link to the profile
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth has a 4K inventory
[15:35]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, not really according to the quote's owner. :)
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	they were envisaged as like a business card to share originally I guess
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	has a 7,200 inv.
[15:36]	Hiro Pendragon:	Calling Card.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	but three avies
[15:36]	Baba Yamamoto:	what is the limit to calling card folder mega chats?
[15:36]	Baba Yamamoto:	right now you can only create a conference with 20 people in the friends list
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	more would be better for mic music parties
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	or is that considered a nono
[15:37]	Baba Yamamoto:	nothing should be a nono ;)
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	I like mic music playing
[15:38]	Baba Yamamoto:	you can't call/IM more than 20 people in a conference from the friends list but you can call all 3000 of your friends via calling card
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	could it be stereo
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	grant: don't make teh mistake of just removing calling cards first
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	we need a sortable friends list first
[15:38]	Baba Yamamoto:	that would have to be adressed before you can remove calling cards
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	tags on calling cards and the rest of inventory
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	and the limits like baba said
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, now there's something you can do with calling cards I hadn't thought of before, put them in folders and you can easily group chat the same group of people regularly
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	never thought of doing it rfom there
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, I've heard some people do that
[15:39]	Baba Yamamoto:	that's another feature that has been used pretty regularly ;)
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	group them for business contacts, friends, etc
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sortable and groupable friends list.
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	hehe what a siple solution
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	but can't have peeps in multiple folders like tags
[15:40]	Baba Yamamoto:	you can copy calling cards
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	eg work related and a party friend in the same person
[15:40]	Baba Yamamoto:	you can but you have to duplicate them
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	customer and client contact at the same time
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	Actually I think copying calling cards makes as much sense as tagging...
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	really we should have a "start conference" button that loads up everyone online in our friends list
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	but tags are better and the whole inv. needs them
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	also aliases not copies in the inv.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	especially not moving items eg like in save outfit
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yupyup, but maybe we could have a view of the inventory where tags become folders (just appears like this, they are not really folders).
[15:42]	Mm Alder:	So Grant, why is it that you want to remove something?
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	*thinks back to inviting people to aim chatrooms and wishing or that same feature*
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	I ask the question to generate thought on how current features are used
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Speaking of inventory... Photo Album. Especially to people like me who has no L$ to upload photos.
[15:43]	Grant Linden:	and what is important
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	unlike beacons :D
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	I still have only found one good use case for beacons: finding annoying sound objects
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	There are much functionalities that really only needs some polish, like the world map and beacons.
[15:43]	Mm Alder:	Ok Grant, so your answer is everything is important and we need more. :-)
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	how about disable all gestures in one go
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Assigning icons to gestures?
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	also display name of gesture in chat of the user triggerin it
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Beacons would definitely be on my "low priority" list of features
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	tracking down which objects you left building scripts in is another one for beacons
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	some peeps trigger and don't know what they triggered
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Certainly not one you need every day
[15:45]	Grant Linden:	for some becons are very useful, and we have some improvements coming for them
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	I know. I still say it's a bad solution
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	or rather, less than ideal
[15:46]	Arcadia Jonson gave you Snotling Devil Beater.
[15:46]	Hiro Pendragon:	What do people think causes most new users to bail on SL? And what would we need to address to fix it?
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Lag, esp. when connecting across oceans.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy Malbers!
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	being able to show beacons on just my own objects would be handy when building
[15:46]	Grant Linden:	Welcome Malbers
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy malbers!
[15:46]	Mm Alder:	I doubt the problem is the UI.
[15:46]	Malbers Linden:	Hola!
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's no way to fix that except to move some servers to China where no porn is allowed to exist.
[15:47]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, you think? What is it then?
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	:3
[15:47]	Grant Linden:	that is a great suggestion, Aimee
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	an interface good to advanced users is also good for noobs and a pleasure to teach them by those who know it already
[15:47]	Malbers Linden was at a different meeting.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi Malbers!
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	*snif* so we're not good enough, is that it?
[15:47]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, some people just want to have a look and never intended to stay; others are just bored by SL.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	shouldn't design for noobs but for real users
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	what is a "real user"?
[15:48]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, why do you think they're bored?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like how Blender does it?
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	the chur rate has a lot to do with peeps who join for wrong reasons
[15:48]	Pier Jaecies:	how long does it take from being a noob to being a real user
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	churn*
[15:48]	Pier Jaecies:	the lower the curve the better
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth is still kind of a newbie
[15:48]	Hiro Pendragon:	Pier, the stat I heard from Linden Lab last year was 20 hours.
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	most of the people I've found that tried it and left from boredom expected it to be a game
[15:48]	Pier Jaecies:	that's the point i think
[15:48]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, because there is no way to win in SL.
[15:48]	Hiro Pendragon:	From Philip's lips.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	yes but good interface is easy to teach
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	didn't get why they couldn't just randomly shoot people
[15:48]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, indeed, for gamers. But do you think most new users are gamers?
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	no
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or why there aren't quests to teach me how to build cute avatars...
[15:49]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko, I think that's an orientation issue, and a good one.
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	most users are socialising peeps
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	SLI would say really isn't a compelling world; there's not much to do here, and if I hadn't come with friends I wouldn't have stayed. That's a whole 'nother topic though
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	gemaers get bored
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	gamers are griefers
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Objection!
[15:50]	Pier Jaecies:	i'm starting to feel that the whole idea of noobs vs real users is very sneetch-ish
[15:50]	Hiro Pendragon:	Why do they get bored, though? There's plenty of games and social events in SL. :)
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	they want to act on the world not in it
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	They are not epic.
[15:50]	Grant Linden:	speaking of topics, can I have some suggestions for future office hours?
[15:50]	Mm Alder:	Actually, there should be a place in the world for griefers too. :-)
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	What kind of gamer would like to join a full 3-d world to play connect the four?
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	they're not used to having to find the games when they already think they're in one though
[15:50]	Hiro Pendragon:	Mm, indeed.
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	exactly, aimee
[15:50]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko, there's plenty to do besides Connect 4, no?
[15:51]	Mm Alder:	Games on orientation island wouldn't be a bad idea.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	gamers have enough games to play as it is so who cares
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	future office hours: a project report on skinning
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Cool!
[15:51]	Hiro Pendragon:	Dare I put forth a hypothesis - New users get bored because the interface is far, far too overwhelming, the orientation is shoddy, and they can't find anything fun.
[15:51]	Hiro Pendragon:	Find, not that there isn't.
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's mostly the orientation.
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	an edit function for all XML based options of the interface
[15:51]	Mm Alder:	Hiro, I agree with two out of three.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, I'd like to hear an update on the status of skinning
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	make your own skins, siple or comprehensive
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Are people coming in?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Is it being actively worked on, or on the shelf? How far along is it?
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	exactly, jacek
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Is there a timeline for it?
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	what's being worked on, when and what we can/can't expect what
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	brutal but effective: For every day their avatar ages, they may spend one minute in a ny given location. then they are moved to a random sim ?
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	inquiring minds wnat to know
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	If they find something to their taste why move them.
[15:53]	Pier Jaecies:	Grant is there an updated outline of projects coming soon?
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:53]	Grant Linden:	I admit it is not an effort I am up to speed on
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	The problem is that they can't find anything...
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, and while we're giving updates, anything on the Landmarks & Navigation project? :3
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	You can replace "they" with "Geneko" too.
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	How about: A "news" ticker of sorts with clickable SLURLS ?
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oooh! SLURL feed!
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	where interesting places are being "advertised"
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Something the landmark project could work on.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	With an "discovery" feed there by default,
[15:55]	Mm Alder:	Squirrel, that sounds good, but who puts the content in it?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	but people could publish their own.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	get landmarks not just TP out of searches
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	The default "discovery" would be made by LL of course...
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	content... based on traffic ? landmarks? recommendations`?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	But anyone would be make their own.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Votes?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Bringing the old SL back once again.
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	click rate?
[15:56]	Hiro Pendragon:	The new find is pretty good, but the current orientation *PREDATES* the find.
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	Mentors could "feed" such a feed ?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Cool idea Squirrel.
[15:57]	Mm Alder:	There are a few blogs out there that post about interesting things. Suppose they provided the feed.
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	and have like 20, 30 places in the ticker at any given time... mix and match from a longer list
[15:57]	Hiro Pendragon:	I think also is the problem that users don't want a long orientation. They want to jump to the fun, and we need a simple handhold to do that.
[15:57]	Mm Alder:	You could subscribe to whatever feed you liked.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Except there isn't much fun?
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	but they need to learn more before they get out into the world
[15:58]	Hiro Pendragon:	Geneko, if you don't think there's lots of things to do in SL, then why bother with it?
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't know?
[15:58]	Hiro Pendragon:	heh. :)
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm lazy like that.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	noobs look like fools now and many quit because of that i think
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	Maybe we can look into some of these ideas for next week and let you know on SL-UX.
[15:58]	Hiro Pendragon:	Charlotte - and/or they need to be able to do things easier once in world.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	find experts for each topic -- see if new info is available
[15:58]	Hiro Pendragon:	Charlette - agreed with your assessement
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	but good orientation would make them feel more on par with us
[15:59]	Grant Linden:	Great ideas, every one.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds good, Malbers
[15:59]	Grant Linden:	we will do our best to see what news we can bring together on skinning
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks Grant :)
[15:59]	Grant Linden:	thank you all for coming
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	no more peeps with a box on the head and no skills to take it off
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	thanks, would appreciate it :_)
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	thanks for lending us your ears ^^
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	np
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	awww but we LIKED box head
[16:00]	Malbers Linden:	thanks all. sorry to only make it for 15 minutes
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	it was a right of passage
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth has never put a box on his head... save for the box-bot avatar
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted knows world domination plotting takes time malbers ;)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	yes for laughs noobs are the best but they get embarased
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	and a special thanks to residents who have visited our Office Hours for the first time
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	I hope to see you next week
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	sure
[16:01]	Pier Jaecies:	Thanks for a great meeting Grant
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	bye
[16:01]	Grant Linden:	bye
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye :)
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, Grant and Malbers!
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	thanks to all