User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 09 30

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	lol. "iron rex"
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm the Senseless King, in another group
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Tuesday is the worst day in my week.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	do u have monday free
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	for most people monday is the worst:)
[11:04]	Maestro Linden:	Hey guys, mind if I sit in?
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	From 09:00 to 10:00 I've got a triage meeting, where we sort through recently filed internal bugs and try to figure out what to do with them, and make sure their priorities are right.
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi maestro
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Welcome Maestro
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	And I find that bug triage must makes me anxious. I'd rather be fixing the bugs rather than sorting them.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Necessary, but not fun.
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	look who has joined us. a magic mushroom:)
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Welcome Maestro.
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Hello everyone
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi kitto
[11:06]	Maestro Linden:	hello
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Maestro is a very new Linden, I believe.
[11:06]	Maestro Linden:	I'm not with the H4 team, so I'm really just sitting in and observing
[11:06]	Maestro Linden:	yeah, brand new =)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Joining the QA team.
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yay!!! More for QA
[11:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	They're springing up like mushrooms, eh?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Well, these office hours aren't about Havok4 much anymore.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	What do you expect, on a system full of so much...
[11:07]	Maestro Linden:	lots of rain recently, I guess
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	I may have an item that is H4 related
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	ha ha Arwan, I can complete that sentence
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	And another that I'd like to share for comments
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Well, let me make a few announcements first...
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I asked about the 1.25-Server schedule today, and the news is not great...
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	they don't expect to be able to branch for 1.25-Server this week
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Late October
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	?
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	hopefully next week
[11:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	When It's Done (R) 3DRealms
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Which makes me sad since a bunch of bug fixes have been waiting for 1.25-Server to actually start final testing.
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	Camera bounce?
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Looks like the bottleneck is the QA cycle of the mergeback of chunks of fixed code.
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Some Exploit, I recall your neighbor mentioning.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Speaking of which... currently one of my branches holds the lock on the mergeback...the 64bit stuff is currently ready for final QA testing
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	How soon might it be ready for Preview Grid
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	however that should go quickly, it just needs some smoke tests since no features were added or bugs fixed.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, nothing up for preview until 1.25-Server goes through a few days of testing, and that branch hasn't even been created yet.
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... there was a reported compile error in my 64bit branch but I just completed building it on Windows and found nothing wrong...
[11:13]	Andrew Linden is trying to work on the side...
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Lets see... any other new...?
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Programming is a great way to soak up the intellect
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I guess I don't have anything else that might be interesting.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, you had a bug you wanted to mention?
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Yes - maybe bug
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	It concerns phantom 'vehicles'
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	A friend made a vehicle - not using vehicle code. Its set phantom.
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	And set physical to be moved
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	On its own it stay s phantom
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	If he sits on it - rides it then the object becomes non-phantom
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	And collision problems show up
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	the entire vehicle? Or just the avatar part?
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	The vehicle prims
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Although edit still whows 'phantom'
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	ok, that is a bug, however I'm surprised that it is happening
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	if you drop a phisical cube on it the cube bounce off it - the prims ate non-phantom
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	That might explain some of the problems with this year's twistor
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Assuming that his script is not setting the object non-phantom, then I'm very surprised it is happening
[11:18]	SSA-2051 Zephyros:	Welcome aboard, Gaius Goodliffe. You are now the pilot.
[11:18]	SSA-2051 Zephyros:	Normal cam.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	if so, then it should also happen for a non-scripted phantom+dynamic object
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	He was trying two ways - set it phantom in edit
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	also set it phantom by script
[11:18]	SSA-2051 Zephyros:	Have a nice day, Gaius Goodliffe!
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, has he entered the bug? I'd be needing a copy of the object, or a demo script that reproduces the problem.
[11:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Okay, my airship stays phantom even when physical and ridden...
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	I do not know what the latest status of his tests are - but I suspected the observerd condition is a bug
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	OK Andrew....
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I'll try to test the simple case after this meeting.
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	If this is not right I will follow up with him, see if can get copy
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	for you
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	I doubt he's entered it as a bug
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	thanks
[11:20]	Maestro Linden:	Hi Simon
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Hi
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	He's a regular builder - type who ignores the complexities of Jira
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	there is some bug about avatars going phantom sometimes. I haven't been able to get to it yet :-(
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	like my sit?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Rex, that collisioness avatar trick you showed us.
[11:21]	James Silberfeld:	cant there be a benefit to avs going phantom? in my mind i can see uses for that
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	actually i like it:)
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	The people who do combat sims want to be able to control that ability
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	James Silberfeld, I've been forwarned that you might show up. I hear you're interested in collisionless avatars, or at least non-pushable avatars. Care to present your issues? The table is open.
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	too bad u can be pushed
[11:22]	James Silberfeld:	yes much griefing is done against me via av pushing... i would love to have an option for phantom av to stop that pushing if needed
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Well, 'phantom' actually means: "collides with terrain only"
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	and as Rex mentioned, his collisionless avatar (which doesn't even collide with the terrain) can still be pushed.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Push-Block as an Avie Option?
[11:24]	James Silberfeld:	ok forgive me on that my intent is a way to avoid av pushing by other avs as a means to help thwart griefing attacks..
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	James, are you talking about scripted pushes via llPushObject()? or collision pushes?
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew's the guy for Anti-Grief Infrastructure
[11:24]	James Silberfeld:	collision push where av physically pushes another av via physics..
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	when people go "phantom" they can still be pushed. which doesn't make sense, since phantomom objects can't be pushed
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	What Rex? Phantom objects can be pushed via llPushObject(), right?
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	Rex - pushed as in pushed-by-LSL, not pushed-by-an-avatar, right?
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Phantom Lindens are pushable
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	pushed by script
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	James, how are these griefers circumventing the sim 'NoPush' setting?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	if phantom objects couldn't be pushed I'd expect a bunch of reports of broken content.
[11:25]	James Silberfeld:	i wish i knew i am set to no push and yet my avs get pushed many meters
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think that u can push phantom objects using scripts
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I'll have to test it later.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	They can't be pushed if the trigger is a collision_start() event
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Push by Script won't work in No Push Area, except by owner, but Push by Collision won't work on Phantoms., I should think
[11:27]	James Silberfeld:	isnt pushing resticted here on this land right now? i can test it for you right now :0
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	james, object(s) r rezzed at your location, that is how u r pushed in no push zone
[11:27]	James Silberfeld:	no sir
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	anyway, as to James' issue... we've talked about avatars being able to control their pushabliity in the past
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Hummm - I wonder if someone has discovered a loophole in Sim NoPush... here's why...
[11:27]	James Silberfeld:	av can push av at my location sir
[11:28]	James Silberfeld:	an object is not required to push at all u only need an av to push another av
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I think it is a feature I'd like to add... however I know that some estate owners and maybe parcel owners would request the ability to override that setting
[11:28]	Kitto Flora:	A few days ago I was at OI Public when there was a griefing attack, and my av was getting pushed by something - while flying. I had ShowTransparent on and did not see any objects hitting me
[11:28]	James Silberfeld:	yes for combat etc... of course
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	some existing content (mostly shoot-em-up games) would be broken if people could cheat their pushability, I'd expect
[11:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There are all sorts of things you can't see with Show Transparent on
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	True
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	kitto, if something is too big u can't see it
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	At the time I was too busy going thru the complexity of filing a report. No time to see whats really going on
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	James, I'd like to work on that. I don't see it happening in the short term (before the end of 2008). There is just too much other features piling up.
[11:30]	James Silberfeld:	let me know when its time for a new subject lol :0
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	anytime actually, the table is open and this is just a casual discussion
[11:31]	Maestro Linden:	hm, those "invisibility prims" aren't highlighted when "show transparent" is enabled, Kitto. So one possibility is that you were hit by something like that.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	if questions or issues are raised that don't get attention, just re-ask
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	sometimes thing pass by the chat history and are missed
[11:31]	James Silberfeld:	ok i have had another weird thing going on?
[11:32]	James Silberfeld:	on my land with stores the SHOW in search will get unchecked unexplainably
[11:32]	James Silberfeld:	sometimes it goes for days before i notice a huge drop in business and i find out...
[11:32]	James Silberfeld:	now i check all my lands each day for safety
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... that is a feature I don't know much about...
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	James, are you ever splitting or joining parcels?
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Interesting - I've found that set 'off' too
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	I think many fields get cleared on a division or join
[11:33]	James Silberfeld:	yes however the show in search function has been unchecked repeatedly on my without any joining or dividing of the land
[11:33]	James Silberfeld:	total unexplainable
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[11:33]	James Silberfeld:	it would be nice if i could LOCK that checkbox or something?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Well, there are two ways I can think of that bug could be introduced...
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	1) is that is mistakenly getting cleared server-side
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	2) the SL client is incorrectly sending a parcel properties update message that asks the simulator to clear that bit
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	ok... a third less likely possibility 3) there is a permission problem that allows others to toggle/clear that bit
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	3) is unlikely since I'd expect to have heard about it if it existed
[11:36]	James Silberfeld:	yes via group i have eliminated that possiblity by not allowing permissions for that also this has occured on non group land also repeatedly
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if dropped packets might result in Client-Side Malaproperties
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	What about a sim code update thats not using the old setting(s) correctly?
[11:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Wouldn't a sim code update problem affect everyone?
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	i would like to add #4 A hacked client does that
[11:36]	James Silberfeld:	lol@ rex
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Well, now that ou are checking that bit daily, what is the frequency of the problem?
[11:37]	James Silberfeld:	it occurs mostly at 2 locations on the same sim nearly it happened once per week for 3 weeks and for 2 weeks has now been okay so far
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Rex, I guess 4) could also be a possibility. That would be a security bug.
[11:37]	James Silberfeld:	at other sim it has happend 2 times in 3 months
[11:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	My own "Show in search" checkboxes have stayed reliably checked for, well, since at least summer 2007 is the last time I discovered mine was unchecked (and that may have been do to my messing with the parcels on my island)
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, you've also seen the bug? Got an estimate on the frequency?
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	I only recall one instance
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	We have no parcels to join/divide
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	So its not that
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	I put it down to op error
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	But now I will check things more often
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	James, this is what I would suggest. The next time you notice it happening send me an IM with the time, location, and parcel-name.
[11:39]	James Silberfeld:	yes sir i will
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	There may be clues in the logs, however those clues get cleared out after several days
[11:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I was in the habit of checking every week, around the time the had the big problems with classified not auto-renewing. But when the problems went away, after a couple months I stopped checking regularly. Still, it hasn't happened since...
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	so I could only investigate an event that was a few days old
[11:40]	James Silberfeld:	new topic?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	sure
[11:40]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	it the same place as before
[11:40]	James Silberfeld:	netscape dispatch wnd.....
[11:40]	James Silberfeld:	its trouble...
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with netscape dispatch wnd
[11:41]	James Silberfeld:	it is acting up a lot for many people
[11:41]	James Silberfeld:	it handles sound...
[11:41]	James Silberfeld:	causes lockup crashes
[11:41]	James Silberfeld:	also a weird bug... can log clear off sl... and still have sound running...
[11:41]	James Silberfeld:	at crash u get error message from netscape dispatch wnd
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	all sound? or just voice?
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	is firefox affected?
[11:42]	James Silberfeld:	sound
[11:42]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	Got a question when you guys have a sec
[11:42]	James Silberfeld:	i only use ie unless troubleshooting website dispaly issue...
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Streaming Music and Voice are on different software
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've logged off before and had the parcel media stream keep playing until I manually kill the second life process...
[11:42]	James Silberfeld:	yes its the stremaing music,....
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	ah ha, I can google 'netscape dispatch wnd'
[11:43]	James Silberfeld:	lol yes u can its free to google :0
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Google knows all.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	James, are you really using netscape?
[11:43]	James Silberfeld:	when i have parties at my club this will crash some people... and i hear complaints and i also experience some issues myself
[11:43]	James Silberfeld:	nope i use IE
[11:44]	Kitto Flora uses Firefox 100%
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	James - this is a crash message from your viewer, correct?
[11:44]	James Silberfeld:	ys sir
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler discovered, last night, that MoveToTarget doesn't work, on a thousand cubic meter prim: Just toss your question into chat, Erin, and try it again if overlooked.
[11:44]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	ok
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	It's probably some internal library the viewer uses - mozilla code
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe uses Firefox, IE, Safari, Opera, and Chrome. I just love cross-browser testing. :p
[11:45]	James Silberfeld:	well a website will look good on one of those browsers at least we hope lol :0
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	uh... Arwan, a 10^3 prim probably doesn't have enough 'script energy' to use MoveToTarget
[11:45]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	Remember the glitch where it made under skits invisible . . . . what caused that? *is trying to learn about this stuff*
[11:45]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	skirts*
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I've investigated that one before. The energy runs out and it drops to the ground
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think my Burning Life Build is now running, about a week overdue
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	ErinSelene, that was a render-bug, I'm not very familiar with the rendering code of the SL viewer
[11:46]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	yayee Awarn
[11:46]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	ohhhh ok
[11:46]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	Arawn*
[11:46]	James Silberfeld:	and now that u mention the sl viewer it is just fabulous wow... but uh the inventory window well can we work on that lol?
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	OK - here's another weirdness - anyone seen anything like this before?
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	BTW, do objects have more script energy under H4 than they did in H1? I swear I have a script that used to not work under H1 on some vehicles (without llVehicleType -- using ApplyImpluse) that now does.
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	FWIW there's a known hack on the enery issue:
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	however, I could imagine how skirts could easily be broken. Probably a typo where skirts were being ignored, or accidentlly categorized as a different clothing type.
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler imagines future generations will be lighting candles to the Awarn of Second Life.
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Call llApplyRotationalImpulse(vector force, integer local); with a zero force, and it resets your energy level
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	What is the hack on the energy issue?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Ha!
[11:47]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	ohhhh
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	We should just get rid of the script energy system.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden would like to do it
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	that is usefull:)
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	It's a bug from Havok1 days that we had to implement in Havok4 because some vehciles accidentally depended on it
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	lots of content would subsequently break
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, that rings a bell
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	sigh
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Here is a steam engine that has been corrupted - the original root prim is missing and another prim in the link set moved to the root position, and so the name of the linked object is changed. This is a no-edit object. How does this happen?
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	I think we need some version info on the script or API it's using, so we could start to migrate to cleaner code. That's a long LSL design discussion, however
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	This is the second one of these that I have seen.
[11:49]	Simon Linden:	FWIW there's stuff like that in Flash - if you comple with one version, it behaves one way, but a re-compile will behave differently due to bug fixes
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, there was a link-order bug in Havok4 during the beta period I seem to recall
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	This was created in the last couple of weeks
[11:49]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Maybe just clean up all the old hacks when you see the script isn't LSL but C#? :D Just a thought...
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Oh...
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Previous one was some months ago
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	That's a possiblity, Gaius
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... might happen if the root prim were accidentally unlinked as an individual
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	and then linked back up
[11:51]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not that I don't *love* LSL... :p
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Its no-edit
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	How can someone unlink it?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	does the train do any scripted unlinking?
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	No
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	wow, that is a mystery
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah - one instance I put down to 'weird'
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	a second one - I get a bit worried
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	the order of the linkage depends on the order in which the parts were saved to asset, or to simulator backup state
[11:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	One assumes that the root prim when the same place much of my old script code has gone. (I figure I have about a 50/50 chance of getting "Script missing from database" when I try to edit a script in an object I made two years ago).
[11:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*went the same place
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the most likely trigger for a linkage order problem that I can think of would be in a save/load cycle
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	rather than a spontaneous re-ordering in the RAM during the simulator operation.
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	Sim backup is only used if the sim is restarted?
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	unless it was a sit/stand-up cycle that caused it. Dunno how that would happen.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	And the object was in-world
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Well theres been a lot of sim restarts going on , so thats possible
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Theres huge numbers of sit/stand on these objects
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	I'll keep an eye out for more reports of the problem Kitto.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Meanwhile, if you find a way to reproduce it I'd love to know how.
[11:55]	James Silberfeld:	how many servers are running all of the mainland sims? or can i ask? if u tell me will u have to kill me cuz i know too much?
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Did anyone here see anything like this elsewhere?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	James, I think we have about 10k servers now...
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	lemme check
[11:55]	James Silberfeld:	are the db's sql?
[11:55]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	holy freaking crap
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[11:56]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	10,000 servers!?
[11:56]	James Silberfeld:	if u have 10 servers running i gonna go back to my store ok i am way out of my league here omg
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That's just mainland
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	looks like there are almost 9k servers running SL
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	How many if you include private islands?
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	9k servers running mainland & Private 'islands'?
[11:56]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	omg 9,000 servers?
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	sim8679.agni.lindenlab.com is the last simulator host on the list, however there are some other servers that do other stuff that aren't simulator hosts
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	why do u think is called a server farm:)
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... wait, there are only 6.6k lines to this file, so there is a gap of server numbers
[11:57]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	what kind of a building must house this stuff?
[11:57]	James Silberfeld:	how do you even keep the half of all this afloat omg yahoo cant keep a chat box open 5 minutes or it crashes?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, about 6.5k simulator hosts
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	YEah - but sim8679... may be a quad-core so is running 4 regions?
[11:57]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	O.O
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	correct Kitto, it most certainly is a quad-core server
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah! Right... okay now it makes sense -- I thought that number seemed low, but right, four sims per host.
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	i have had yahoo chat boxes opened for hours, and no crashing
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	the servers are housed in "colo facilities" around the country
[11:58]	James Silberfeld:	did anybody mention it will be pricey to upgrade all the servers LOL :(*)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	colo = co-location
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Or 16 for openspaces
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	Keeping it up and running is an adventure :)
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	And some regions are 'open sims' - could be 16 opens running at one net address
[11:58]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	this is very dumb but I didn't know there were that many computer building in the world
[11:59]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	I always thought it was people like me with a few extra computer towers
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	a colo is a building for holding racks and racks of servers, with lots of high-bandwidth lines in, and cooling and backup power
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	There were 3 colos - are there more yet? Any in Europe?
[11:59]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	wow
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	all of the servers are 1U boxes (1 unit high = 1.75 inches)
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	well, all of the simulator hosts are 1U
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	we have some other larger boxes used for asset servers, database hosts, and backup systems
[12:00]	James Silberfeld:	is there a reason why the servers are not raid? (for the sims)?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	None in europe yet
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've been asked, by some one in Portugal, whether there are any in Portugal, but I don't know how big a CoLo has to be, to pay for the independant staff
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	yes james, it turns out that RAID is very prone to hardware failure
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	and is more expensive
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Someone has to go there for staff training, etc
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	the backup systems use RAID
[12:01]	James Silberfeld:	how do u manage bakups of so much data omg? without raid?
[12:01]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	do colo owners make a lot of money?
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	RAID = redundant array of independent disks
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	RAID?
[12:01]	James Silberfeld:	ok gotcha backup is raid
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	RAID disk arrays can loose a disk without losing any data
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	A (not necessarily Linden) colo can be any size ... from a single rack to a huge building. It's just a business set up to host and run servers for other companies or people
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Does the "Islands Owned" figure on the Economic Statistics page include mainland sims?
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	and individual the disks can be hot-swapped in without shuttind down the server
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	The original CoLo is in San Francisco, then Dallas Tx was added, then Los Angeles aera?
[12:02]	James Silberfeld:	now am i the only one noticing the increase in logged in people? we had 70K other day... what can we handle at present? are we ready for the holidays boom here?
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	I have not poked around recently to find out
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	We definitely notice those numbers, James :)
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, not sure about the Island Owned stat, but probably doesn't include mainland
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wouldn't Mainland be one island?
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	It says 25426 Islands Owned -- if that excludes mainland sims... the server count seems low...
[12:03]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	I suppose you guys don't know how proffitable a colo is v.v
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	James, we're not sure how many we can hold. We're constantly changing the system in an attempt to scale the service.
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	'island' is slang for a private owned region.
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I'm sure that's private islands, not on a continent
[12:03]	James Silberfeld:	could we sustain 100K logged come this december?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Gaius, the numbers skewing the owned regions are the "open space" regions
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh right... wow, they'er more popular than I thought then.
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Christmas might be an annual smoke test
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	"open space" regions are cheaper, get fiewer CPU cycles, and run 4 per CPU, so maybe up to 16 per host
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	CoLos are good business but need huge capital investment to make a GOOD colo facility. And the competition is building
[12:04]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	I am sorry, we rent one of those, what would you like to know about them?
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Is Christmas a high concurrency event? I thought it was lower than usual.
[12:04]	James Silberfeld:	let me see what i can do?
[12:05]	James Silberfeld:	is it ok to talk about promoting sl here?
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	Higest concurrency has more to do with publicity I think
[12:05]	James Silberfeld:	or is this bugs talk?
[12:05]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	thanks for the info i will put that idea on the back burnner in that case
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	yes James, however I'm not an expert on SL promotions.
[12:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	There's a lot of new systems and days off, so I'd expect Christmas, or the Thanksgiving Friday, to be especially smokish
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	At this point we've ourside the official office hours anyhow -- I tink it's pretty much anything goes.
[12:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*outside
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	My areas of expertise are mostly server-side stuff, and the physics engine in particular.
[12:06]	James Silberfeld:	ok np
[12:06]	James Silberfeld:	i can explain some of the recent increase...
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes, office hours are over.
[12:06]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	oops
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	I was going to test the phantom seat that becomes collidable on sit.
[12:06]	James Silberfeld:	as tso went offline many people have began to spend time here ... although many of them already had an account...
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	TSO?
[12:06]	James Silberfeld:	i am working on methods to market to those people
[12:07]	James Silberfeld:	teh sims online
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think we saw a major influx from TSO when it actually shut down, did we?
[12:07]	James Silberfeld:	here is y
[12:07]	James Silberfeld:	they already were members
[12:07]	James Silberfeld:	but now they log in
[12:07]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	gah TP's to the right of me gah!
[12:07]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	I will try to make the next meeting too you guys really help alot
[12:07]	James Silberfeld:	i have dozens of people at my location from tso and i have picked their brains empty
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	TSO had a slow decline, as I recall, then they eventually shut down the last servers
[12:08]	James Silberfeld:	it just very recently went offline
[12:08]	James Silberfeld:	it is a huge opportunigy for sl
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if that CoLo is available...
[12:08]	Simon Linden:	We did see some steady growth over the past few weeks
[12:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think most TSOers already migrated before the official end
[12:08]	James Silberfeld:	i am getting tons of feedback in sl from peeps who came here from tso and i hear much good and only tiny bit of gripes...
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think TSO had the same hardware/user ratio that we do.
[12:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	But there's always the last few
[12:09]	James Silberfeld:	i been here only 5 months but i wathc each day the #'s
[12:09]	James Silberfeld:	its growing
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	plenty to gripe about, more to rave about
[12:09]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	see you guys next time
[12:09]	James Silberfeld:	yes i get way more raving and tiny gripes
[12:09]	ErinSelene Llewellyn:	thanks for everything
[12:09]	Gaius Goodliffe remembers when 3000 was the typical number...
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	See you all, gotta go too...
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:10]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone
[12:10]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchtime!
[12:10]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[12:10]	James Silberfeld:	ty sir :)
[12:10]	Gaius Goodliffe:	cya