Bug triage/2007-07-16/Transcript

Agenda

[15:01]	Stevex Janus:	I'm still rying yo catch up on eht 400+ emails from the list
[15:01]	Soft Linden:	Ping!
[15:01]	otakup0pe Neumann:	ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
[15:01]	Daedalus Young:	hi Rob
[15:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	stop floating
[15:01]	Soft Linden:	Hee
[15:01]	Stevex Janus:	hi rob
[15:01]	Soft Linden:	Yeah, the list gets a bit noisy on and off :>
[15:01]	Rob Linden:	hi folks....y'all wanna try out my fancy new three prim meeting area down the hill?
[15:01]	Soft Linden:	Sure :>
[15:02]	Soft Linden:	Bring the bug box?
[15:02]	Stevex Janus:	oku
[15:03]	Rob Linden:	hopefully, we're close enough that people can still find us
[15:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	hard to miss the mass of green dots :o
[15:03]	Daedalus Young:	follow the green dots
[15:03]	Soft Linden shouts: Dale, Saijanai, down the hill!
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao off
[15:04]	Gigs Taggart:	eek, wet
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao on
[15:04]	Dale Glass:	interesting
[15:05]	Gigs Taggart looks for a copy of the multi-sit-target script :)
[15:05]	Soft Linden:	What's that do - set a new target whenever someone sitss?
[15:06]	Rob Linden:	yeah, I'm not exactly the builder with the skilz
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart:	yep
[15:06]	Soft Linden:	Nice!
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart:	it was pretty ingenious :)
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't have a copy on me right now
[15:06]	Gigs Taggart:	I'll have to drop one on rob later
[15:06]	Soft Linden shouts: Aric, Dzonatas - down the hill today!
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood gave you AutoSizing Ring Seat 20+.
[15:07]	Boroondas Gupte:	I think it can be rezzed by MultiGadget
[15:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	lotsa lindens here today...
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	Mmm. Lindens ^^
[15:07]	Soft Linden:	Now we just need this to go floating down the river once triages start
[15:07]	Rob Linden:	alright....let's get started
[15:07]	Rob Linden:	VWR-779
[15:08]	Rob Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[15:08]	Daedalus Young:	779 looks good to me
[15:08]	Dzonatas Sol tried to sit...
[15:08]	Soft Linden:	Looks good to me
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Isn't it http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Agenda ?
[15:09]	Rob Linden:	both should work
[15:09]	Soft Linden:	Squirrel: Yep!
[15:09]	Daedalus Young:	or even https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
[15:09]	Rob Linden:	(oh, whoops, you're right
[15:09]	Soft Linden:	But it was a trick: Now you have to run it, Squirrel.
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood:	the open sauce one shows me an empty list
[15:10]	Soft Linden:	VWR-779 import?
[15:10]	otakup0pe Neumann:	i can't notice a difference in the pictures, but go for it.
[15:10]	otakup0pe Neumann:	oh. looks liek the text on the top is less crunched
[15:10]	Daedalus Young:	Nicholaz' version is a bit cleaner
[15:11]	Soft Linden:	Overrunning that background area, which can make it unreadable with some backgrounds
[15:11]	Rob Linden:	yeah, ok. we should at least give Ben a heads up. it's debug stuff, so he'll be less concerned, but still
[15:11]	Rob Linden:	...but I'll mark it for import
[15:11]	Rob Linden:	next up: SVC-337
[15:13]	Soft Linden:	Looks low-priority, but a valid bug if it's right. Might import, but not assign yet
[15:13]	Dzonatas Sol:	I haven't applied this patch, but I wonder if it conflicts with Dale's Mute Visibility.
[15:13]	Dale Glass:	that's Able's, not mine
[15:13]	Dzonatas Sol:	Able's.. my bad
[15:13]	Soft Linden:	The patch is just for easily reproducing a bug, not for fixing it.
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	depends on whether this is indeed a bug or intended behavior
[15:14]	Boroondas Gupte:	is there any documentation on what is is supposed to do?
[15:14]	Dzonatas Sol:	i see that now... "demonstrates".
[15:15]	Rob Linden:	this hasn't been discussed on sldev yet, has it?
[15:15]	Soft Linden:	I don't recall it
[15:16]	Soft Linden:	If it was brought up, it wasn't with the JIRA in it. No hits in search.
[15:16]	Rob Linden:	does anyone feel confident they know what the behavior should be here?
[15:17]	Aric Linden:	Rob, if you'd like you can import this and assign it to me
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	that's the point that needs clarification?
[15:17]	Aric Linden:	I'll have someone on my team repro it and provide feedback on correct behavior
[15:17]	Soft Linden:	At the very least, we should see if updateMutFlags is supposed to do something with that field. Yeah.
[15:18]	Rob Linden:	ok...that sounds great, Aric, thanks!
[15:18]	Aric Linden:	sure
[15:18]	Rob Linden:	next up: VWR-824
[15:18]	Daedalus Young:	SL isn't the only realtime 3D app with the transparent problem
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	824.. isn't that something that is caused by opengl limitations of some sort or another?
[15:19]	Daedalus Young:	I'm sure I've seen it in Blender's Game Engine too
[15:19]	Daedalus Young:	also see the linked issues there
[15:20]	Soft Linden:	That kind of alpha sorting is an unsolved problem for poly-based engines. I'm sure that's duplicated internally...
[15:20]	Dzonatas Sol:	I'm sure 824 is related to another jira entry... somewhere
[15:20]	Daedalus Young:	VWR-27
[15:20]	Rob Linden:	we've discussed this general problem before
[15:20]	Daedalus Young:	for example
[15:20]	Rob Linden:	that's probably the one I'm thinking of
[15:20]	Soft Linden:	I'll close it as a dupe of that
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	I assume SL uses some form of z-buffer to render stuff... which should technically eliminate such z-order / alpha problems ?
[15:21]	Daedalus Young:	you'll need to have objects subdivided by the renderer
[15:21]	Rob Linden:	has anyone explained this general problem well, though?
[15:21]	Rob Linden:	VWR-27 is still kinda hanging out there as a probelm, too
[15:21]	Daedalus Young:	my comment on VWR-27:
[15:21]	Daedalus Young:	This happens because the Z-buffer (which you can see if you go to Snapshot > Capture > Depth) doesn't allow transparent texturing. You can make it work in a lot of situations, but it breaks when several objects are both behind -and- in front of eachother (like a ring around a pole, the ring is behind the pole, but the pole is behind the ring). As Thygrrr said, it requires geometry subdivisions, divide the ring in 2 pieces, one piece behind the pole and one piece in front of it.
[15:22]	Dzonatas Sol:	I like that idea... subdivisions
[15:22]	Rob Linden:	VWR-203 is the discussion I'm remembering, but it looks like they're all related
[15:22]	Soft Linden:	But it gets even more complicated than that, when you have 3-4 objects overlapping, the number of subdivisions required is explosive.
[15:23]	Daedalus Young:	yeah, I've linked some up yesterday
[15:23]	Rob Linden:	ok, so resolved/duplicate?
[15:23]	Dzonatas Sol:	yes.
[15:23]	Daedalus Young:	there are many more issues concerning transparency
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	it happens with objects that have different 3d positions inworld and aren't intersecting at all.
[15:23]	Dzonatas Sol:	real-time ray-tracers have a way to subdivide fast
[15:23]	Boroondas Gupte:	classic z-buffer trick only works for opaque objects, for transparent ones you would need a list/array/whatever of several z values per pixel which isn't performant anymore
[15:23]	Daedalus Young:	also sorting in HUDs wrong
[15:23]	Daedalus Young:	I believe it's basically all the same problem
[15:23]	Rob Linden:	next up: VWR-914
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	HUD alpha is newly broken daedalus
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	at least in terms of picking and certain rendering problems
[15:24]	Daedalus Young:	ok gigs
[15:25]	Soft Linden:	VWR-914 will likely become more of a problem with Vista as well. Memory needs to be sized based on available texture memory, not the whole of video memory.
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:25]	Soft Linden:	Vista uses quite a bit more memory for UI compositing as well.
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	same with linux and Beryl/etc
[15:25]	Dzonatas Sol:	It has votes. Import without patch?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	3D desktop is only going to get more common
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	If you run the transparent glass ui on vista it demands a 256mb gfx card methinks
[15:26]	Soft Linden:	Yeah. Or I can make a note to ask for suggestions on how to choose the size on-list
[15:26]	Aric Linden:	It coincides nicely with an internal uptick in vista diagnostics too
[15:26]	Gigs Taggart:	yes import
[15:26]	Rob Linden:	k...marked for import
[15:26]	Rob Linden:	next VWR-1448
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	seen that happen on one of me products
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	quite annoying actually
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	I haven't tried the repro but it looks detailed
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	Looks good to me for import
[15:28]	Rob Linden:	I'll import
[15:28]	Rob Linden:	next
[15:28]	Rob Linden:	VWR-747
[15:28]	AusFox Walcott:	Oh noes, its teh feds!
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	747 is straightforward
[15:28]	AusFox Walcott hides contraband* <_< >_>
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	a "misfeature" that was waiting to get enough votes to triage again
[15:28]	Rob Linden waits for VWR-747 to load
[15:29]	Gigs Taggart:	I almost made a patch for 747, I expect it to be one liner :)
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	humm.. when uploading a 1022x510 texture, SL will size it down to 512x256 when it would be better of sizing it to 1024x512... not related but I think its worth mentioning ^^
[15:29]	Gigs Taggart:	squirrl you might want to report that in Jira too :)
[15:30]	otakup0pe Neumann:	heh
[15:30]	Soft Linden:	The bigger problem is the number of builders using 1024 when 128 would do ;)
[15:31]	otakup0pe Neumann:	True.
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	There's a solution for that with sculpties at least
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	allow lossless compression only for 128 or less
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd use 10240² if there was a need for it (high quality animation :p)
[15:31]	Soft Linden:	Saijanai - that's brilliant
[15:31]	Gigs Taggart:	1024 is useful for "whole object" maps
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not my idea. pretty much the concensus of everyone
[15:32]	Daedalus Young:	texture atlases
[15:32]	Daedalus Young:	make one object with different textures, but all textures mapped onto one large texture
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	a 128 lossless is probably bigger than a 1024 compressed :)
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	mipmaps... let people choose a maximum mipmap level to load in clients ?
[15:32]	Soft Linden:	Even if not lossless, a higher quality level, enough to kill visible macroblock borders
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn hopes that Gigs is wrong...
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	well I exaggerate
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	to be honest I would love a lossless option
[15:33]	Soft Linden:	But this one - import?
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	yes 747 import
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	64 with lossless is probably enouygh, from what Qarl says, but we shall see
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	it was waiting for votes
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	I'm all for it
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	it has them now
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	it's going to be like one line of code I bet
[15:34]	Rob Linden:	ok...I'll import, though I'm still a little confused, to be honest
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart:	right now upload previews constrain aspect ratio to the powers of two the actual texture is
[15:34]	Rob Linden:	could someone maybe clear up the description a little bit?
[15:34]	Bridie Linden:	yes, please
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart:	ok I'll do it
[15:35]	Aric Linden:	Thanks. I'm worried that we might be making things worse if we change this.
[15:35]	Aric Linden:	A better description of what's expected will help avoid that
[15:35]	Rob Linden:	I think it's worth a discussion from whoever made the change. can't promise a fix, thoguh
[15:36]	Dzonatas Sol:	How about an extra L$5 for lossless?
[15:36]	Rob Linden:	next up: VWR-857
[15:36]	valebi Aabye:	i m looking for a job
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	I'd pay 500L for a 1024 lossless :)
[15:37]	Boroondas Gupte:	lossless is to be considered when uploading, not when displaying
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn notes: aren;t we all
[15:37]	Dzonatas Sol:	blackened avatars on macs... dupe
[15:37]	Daedalus Young:	yes, seen a dupe of it too
[15:37]	valebi Aabye:	where is teleport?
[15:37]	Rob Linden:	oh...yeah, it's linked to the dup, just not marked
[15:37]	Aric Linden:	I think it would be nice to have a repro for 857
[15:37]	valebi Aabye:	hi
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	repro? Get a Mac? ^^
[15:38]	Daedalus Young:	no, not that easy Squirrel
[15:38]	Soft Linden:	Valebi: Try clicking 'search' at the bottom of the screen and finding a location to teleport to in there
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	aww
[15:38]	Daedalus Young:	I'm on a Mac and it doesn't always happen
[15:38]	Aric Linden:	Same here Daedalus.
[15:38]	Daedalus Young:	have seen it on other avatars though
[15:38]	Rob Linden:	dup of VWR-771
[15:38]	Daedalus Young:	usually when I log into a busy area, a highly-prim-attached avatar turns up black
[15:39]	Rob Linden:	next up: VWR-400
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	I have updated 747
[15:39]	Bridie Linden:	thx Gigs
[15:39]	Soft Linden:	ty Gigs :)
[15:39]	Rob Linden:	ditto
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood:	packet loss related "bug" ?
[15:39]	Daedalus Young:	I think 400 is due to packet loss indeed
[15:40]	valebi Aabye:	soy nueva
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	oh I have news on that front
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	I have installed the latest ubuntu beta which has the traffic shaping module I need to do full latency and packet loss testing
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol:	sounds like packet loss
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	valebi try going to the second life library and asking for help from the librarians
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	that was holding me up previously
[15:40]	valebi Aabye:	i need telepot
[15:41]	Gigs Taggart:	I will be hopefully trying to repro most latency and packet loss related bugs real soon now and posting how to do so to the sldev list :)
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	use that to teleplort to the library
[15:41]	Bridie Linden:	/ valeba, you can use the Map to find a location and teleport there.
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there are often people there to help you
[15:41]	Bridie Linden:	/ velebi, sorry
[15:41]	valebi Aabye:	i must push teleport
[15:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	yes
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	5-10 people there ATM she should be fine
[15:43]	Rob Linden:	it doesn't look ats though there's a reliable repro for this, short of what Gigs is talking about
[15:43]	Dzonatas Sol:	resolve/no repro =/
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart:	well it's pretty straightforward I think, the client "moves" the prim visually but the server is authoritative in the end
[15:44]	Dzonatas Sol:	or need more info.. for network info
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	yep. poster needs to provide packet loss detail info for cases when it "happens"
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart:	hopefully that command will move to TCP :)
[15:45]	Rob Linden:	k...will resolve/cannot repro for now
[15:45]	Aric Linden:	for 1043 please import it and assign it to me
[15:45]	Rob Linden:	next up: VWR-1043 which sounds like we've got a resolution for
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	talk about synchornicity. Someone in teh scripters group just described a situation where they could stretch a build to cover 1/2 a sim without unlinking
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol:	close.. old
[15:46]	Rob Linden:	thx aric
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol:	not 1043... but next
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol:	63
[15:46]	Rob Linden:	VWR-63
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	Sai... build it small scale, link, then scale it up
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, well, new to me...
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol:	63 has been fixed
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol:	i makred is reolved/fixed
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol:	*it as
[15:48]	Soft Linden:	I'd be curious to see the shop though. It sure sounds like it could even just be someone with two objects in the same location. Or too close for decisive Z-ordering.
[15:48]	Rob Linden:	when was it fixed?
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart:	soft I remember talking with someone about this bug and they said it wasn't z-ordering
[15:48]	Gigs Taggart:	soft it almost sounds like video ram corruption
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol:	This was a bug up until the 1.13 and 1.14
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol:	I used to get it also
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol:	it doesn't happen anymore
[15:49]	Rob Linden:	ok...good enough
[15:49]	Rob Linden:	next up: SVC-29
[15:49]	Aric Linden:	I'd be curious to know if this is still an issue
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah, he would know if it was hehe
[15:50]	Aric Linden:	could we ask him?
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart:	he's surely the largest user of XML-RPC in the world
[15:50]	Aric Linden:	really?
[15:50]	Rob Linden:	which issue are we talking about? SVC-29?
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart:	I would think so, all those thousands of SLX boxes
[15:50]	Aric Linden:	yes, the xml-rpc issue
[15:51]	Dzonatas Sol:	there was a dns issue with xml-rpc... that may be fixed now
[15:51]	Aric Linden:	it's hard for us to test xml-rpc timing issues internally
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	I think Kelly said xml-rpc is a bottleneck system where it all goes through a single server and that was causing trouble.
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	mayhaps it'd be a good idea to set up a bunch of xmlrpc boxes in different sims and have them monitor "round trip" times of sorts?
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't know if that is still the case.
[15:52]	Aric Linden:	If it's still a problem, I'd love to know about it and work with him to repro it and analyze the specifics
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah he'd be the guy to go to, I'm sure he gets emails every time the system slows down :)
[15:53]	Aric Linden:	Rob, can I propose that we ask Nynthan if he's still seeing problems and if so, put him in touch with me?
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if there is a debug assistance kit for landowners and lindens. wander into a sim and click option #3 in the HUD...
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	Where's my moose.. err.. money? ^^
[15:53]	Gigs Taggart:	noo I mean Apotheus
[15:54]	Aric Linden:	Ahh. thanks Gigs. Apotheus it is. Rob, is that ok with you?
[15:54]	Rob Linden:	that's fine
[15:54]	Boroondas Gupte:	SVC-29 is linked to an issue that can't be viewed by public (SVC-1)
[15:55]	Rob Linden:	yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that.
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte:	I saw that with another issue that's been mooved to the security project, or something
[15:56]	Rob Linden:	next up MISC-23
[15:56]	Rob Linden:	(for what it's worth, it says I don't have perms to see SVC-1, which is really weird)
[15:56]	Daedalus Young:	description is a bit unclear, but apparently with very large builds, "edit linked parts" and editing a prim unlinks it
[15:56]	Gigs Taggart:	MISC-23 I saw a recent complaint about from Lewis Nerd on SLDEV group.
[15:56]	Gigs Taggart:	spontaneous unlinking
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn cues Twilight Zone music
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	I have not had that happen to me as of yet
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	it is a little hard to repro, might be packet loss related again
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	Isn't Lewis in UK?
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	might be related to the wandering child prims thing
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	high latency/packet loss might be a trigger for this
[15:58]	Daedalus Young:	I don't knw how edit linked parts works internally, if that unlinks and relinks a linkset, it could be related to packet loss
[15:58]	Dzonatas Sol:	linksets usually move as one vector
[15:59]	Dzonatas Sol:	so packet loss is doubted
[15:59]	Rob Linden:	hrm...ok. what's the next step?
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't know at this point.
[15:59]	Daedalus Young:	trying to get a solid repro? :S
[15:59]	Aric Linden:	I'd suggest either a solid repro
[15:59]	Rob Linden:	do we need some way of marking issues as possible packet loss related?
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	Meta-issue for potentially latency/packet loss related bugs seems called for.
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	yes
[15:59]	Dzonatas Sol:	IM Lestat
[16:00]	Gigs Taggart:	it would make testing easier once I develop some test scenarios for high latency/packet loss
[16:00]	Dzonatas Sol:	OK... I'll IM Lestat and post the reply to the jira
[16:01]	Rob Linden:	k....looks like we're out of time
[16:01]	Daedalus Young:	aww, already
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	That was a quite productive hour again ^^
[16:01]	Rob Linden:	thanks everyone for showing up!
[16:01]	Soft Linden:	Thanks all :)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Thanks for listening to our opinions and suggestions ^^
[16:02]	Dzonatas Sol:	thank you for your time 'all
[16:02]	Daedalus Young:	Lindens thanks for letting us help :)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao on
[16:02]	Soft Linden:	Who's meeping?
[16:02]	Daedalus Young:	not me
[16:02]	Bridie Linden:	bye !
[16:03]	Daedalus Young:	bye