User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 22

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	ok, let's give people a couple of minutes to arrive
[8:06]	Cale Flanagan:	pong
[8:07]	Aargle Zymurgy:	yay.. it's raining scripters
[8:07]	Nock Forager:	lol
[8:07]	belite Ansar:	Hello.
[8:07]	Cale Flanagan:	y, the name tags get slowly crouded:)
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	ok, let's kick off
[8:07]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hello everyone
[8:07]	electroRogue Fizzle:	hi
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	here's where we are this week
[8:08]	belite Ansar:	Hi
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	we've just submitted a batch of fixes to be included in 1.25 server
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	which resolve http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3102
[8:09]	JIRA board (small): http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3102
[8:09]	Babbage Linden:	and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1378
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	we've also folded in a resident patch for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2631
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	which allows multi line comments in LSL
[8:10]	Twisted Laws:	YEAH
[8:10]	electroRogue Fizzle:	YAY
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	and some fixes for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3220
[8:10]	Fake Fitzgerald:	I love multi line comment
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2975
[8:11]	Aargle Zymurgy:	nice
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	that will hopefully fix the last of the .NET error message problems we've been having with mono
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	thanks to everyone that helped us with http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2908
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	it's taken lots of work to resolve all the issues
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	and break them apart in to separate problems
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	these last fixes should resolve issues where scripts have been under load
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	processing many events
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	and then fail
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	the issue only manifested itself after scripts had queued up 64 events and started dropping events
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	which made it initially hard to build a simple repro for
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	so, those are the current fixes in the pipe for 1.25 server
[8:14]	Prana Cale:	wtf
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	which should ship in the next few weeks
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	we may be able to sneak a couple more fixes in
[8:14]	Twisted Laws:	very good!
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	but most of the high priority issues with Mono should be fixed with 1.25
[8:14]	Lillie Yifu:	well that was cute
[8:14]	Yngwie Krogstad:	Awesome news
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	the other big news is that HTTP In is now available on the preview grid
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	there are 3 sandboxes there
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	and 1 teen sandbox
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	although there are some problems atm
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	which we will hopefully get to look at this week
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	peri has made a meta JIRA for HTTP In here:
[8:15]	Babbage Linden:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3238
[8:15]	Grady Vuckovic:	Awesome (oh and sorry if I'm stepping on anyone, not rezzed yet)
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	if you find any problems with HTTP In, please look there first
[8:16]	Lillie Yifu claps
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	and if the issue is not linked from there, please make a new issue and link it
[8:16]	Babbage Linden:	so we have a central location we can look at to find all the known issues
[8:17]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i have seen some peopl in one of the scripting groups im in talking about having a problem with endless redirects occuring
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	yes, i need to look at that
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	not sure if it's a configuration issue with the preview grid deploy
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	we had HTTP In working on an internal development grid before deploying it to the preview grid
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	i think the 2 grids may have some configuration differences
[8:19]	Lillie Yifu:	OGP note, we will then need someo way for scripts to get configuration infomration from their grid
[8:19]	Grady Vuckovic:	I'm sorry I just got here, what's HTTP In? Or better still a link to read about it? (Save time here)
[8:19]	Grady Vuckovic:	Ah, got it.
[8:19]	Lillie Yifu:	since it will not be safe to assume that once the LL grid is fixed that all other grids will also be the same configuration
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	grady: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	lillie, yes, we need scripts to be able to query their environment
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	i was talking to adam frisbie about this at the virtual world conference in london yesterday
[8:21]	Imaze Rhiano:	any chance to get service for httpin that allows permament redirection to object's temporal urls - like "http://secondlife.com/imaze/rhiano/updates"? Extrernal dynamic DNS and redirection are going to be pain in ass :(
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	scripts need to be able to find out what APIs are available
[8:21]	Babbage Linden:	on grids with different configurations
[8:22]	Grady Vuckovic:	Could that be done with the llGetRegionInfo()? maybe?
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	there needs to be a base set of services that scripts can rely on
[8:22]	Lillie Yifu:	are zero and zha in the loop about this?
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	supported by SL and OpenSim
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	but also mechanisms to add new APIs and events
[8:23]	Lillie Yifu:	gareth and tao will want toknow this too.
[8:23]	Babbage Linden:	we talked about adding configurable interest management for scripts too
[8:23]	Twisted Laws:	llRequestSimulatorData(simulator, DATA_SIM_SCRIPTVERSION)
[8:23]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment scripts are told about events that the object they are in is aware of
[8:23]	Lillie Yifu:	hmmm
[8:23]	Lillie Yifu:	I would vote for a cap
[8:24]	Lillie Yifu:	because different http in servers may well have different api/configuration information
[8:24]	Lillie Yifu:	the script should get a cap with it's list of available api and configuration information
[8:24]	Babbage Linden:	but it would be nice if you could write a single script that is told about events affecting other objects
[8:24]	Babbage Linden:	especially in OpenSim which doesn't support many concurrent scripts
[8:25]	Lillie Yifu:	lsl could ut the content sof that cap into a list
[8:25]	Lillie Yifu:	for the script
[8:25]	Lillie Yifu:	but the script could also simply pass that cap
[8:25]	Babbage Linden:	it's an interesting idea
[8:26]	Grady Vuckovic:	Maybe could make a llGetEvents(key object) function. Returns a list of constants with different events accounted for in that prims inventory based on the active scripts?
[8:26]	Babbage Linden:	many LSL apis could instead be written as web APIs that are queried with llHTTPRequest
[8:26]	Lillie Yifu:	yes
[8:26]	Babbage Linden:	so you could have HTTP In invoke a service to give it an URL
[8:26]	Lillie Yifu:	it's more restful that way
[8:27]	Babbage Linden:	it would be good to have more XML parsing machinery in LSL to support that though
[8:27]	Imaze Rhiano:	would be easier to allow scripts just running envinroment where they are compiled - different configuration handling is just making scripts complex and consume their resources
[8:27]	Babbage Linden:	at the moment the memory limits and parsing constraints make using standard services from LSL hard
[8:28]	Babbage Linden:	Imaze, the other way of doing it would be supporting includes or references
[8:28]	Lillie Yifu:	the problem is that the script is compiled once
[8:28]	Lillie Yifu:	and what server it is onwill change
[8:28]	Babbage Linden:	which is hard for LSL
[8:28]	Lillie Yifu:	so if I write an script
[8:28]	Babbage Linden:	but possible in C#
[8:29]	Lillie Yifu:	and someone tps to some other grid, or a differently configured server on teh same hetgrid
[8:29]	Lillie Yifu:	then it will break if it has configuration from compile time
[8:29]	Lillie Yifu:	config has to be run time here.
[8:29]	Grady Vuckovic:	I'm currently in the process of making a config notecard reader that has to read XML formatted data and turn it into a tree structure for a menu. Having some useful functions for automate XML reading would be just lovely
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	so you might compile a C# script in an environment that supplies OpenSim.SuperExtension
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	which would just fail to initialise in SecondLife
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	which is often enough
[8:30]	Lillie Yifu:	ummm hmmm
[8:30]	Lillie Yifu:	yes icnluds have been somthing that people have wnated for a long time
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	lillie, making scripts compatible at the bytecode level will be hard
[8:30]	Grady Vuckovic:	Mmhm!
[8:30]	Babbage Linden:	but making C# scripts compatible at the source code level is a good first step
[8:31]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that would take a lot of hard coding to do that
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	if scripts are just using common functionality supported by Second Life and OpenSim
[8:31]	Lillie Yifu:	even then there is no assurance that two different sims on the same grid will ahve the same configuration/api list
[8:31]	Babbage Linden:	they should be at least compatible at the source level
[8:31]	Grady Vuckovic:	One thing would be nice is being able to run plugins on the actual SL client. Has that been considered?
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	i've considered it :-)
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	there are a lot of things people would like to do with scripts on the client
[8:32]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hat you could do is hav a script do is detect what type of sim it is on and self force a recompile
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	internally we'd like to be able to automate the client for testing
[8:32]	Grady Vuckovic:	Maybe alone the lines of a something similar to the LSLEditor, as in basic level of interupting LSL code
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	i'd also like to have the client transparently download scripts annotated as client scripts
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	which could then send messages to server scripts
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	so for example, if you built a HUD
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	most of the UI code would be marked as a client script
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	and would be downloaded and run on your client when you wore the HUD
[8:33]	Babbage Linden:	so you get a responsive UI without network round trip latency
[8:33]	Lillie Yifu:	babbage += 10
[8:34]	Grady Vuckovic:	Yep, that's what I had in mind too actually. Would be very handy!
[8:34]	Nock Forager:	hehe
[8:34]	Babbage Linden:	you could also write client side scripts to do latency hiding
[8:34]	Babbage Linden:	if you were building an FPS game in SL
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	we also want plugins that extend the client
[8:35]	Grady Vuckovic:	Also it might open up other possible things which could be done, like textboxs, sliders, etc?
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	for example to add those GUI elements
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	in theory you could do that without a sandbox
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	and have some cludgy trust thing
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	but I'd rather see a common sandboxed VM like mono be used
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	if possible
[8:36]	Sheryl Mimulus:	I rather the code be sandboxed too
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	there's lots of discussion about this internally
[8:36]	Grady Vuckovic:	Good to hear :)
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	we end up with a VM through web browser embedding
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	so one option is to use that for client scripting
[8:36]	Prana Cale:	is there anything planned to syncronize animations?
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	in java script
[8:37]	Grady Vuckovic:	There is some things I would love to do like know exact what point in the sim the agents camera is focused on
[8:37]	Babbage Linden:	but I'd prefer to see Mono in the client to make client and server scripting in the same languages possible
[8:37]	Lillie Yifu:	yes
[8:37]	Grady Vuckovic:	Mmhm, agreed
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	the client side scripting is a long way off
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	but the viewer automation for testing is going to happen soon
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	so I'd like to decide on a technology that can be used for both
[8:39]	Imaze Rhiano:	javascript have many users - but then silverlight style environment would be closer mono
[8:39]	Grady Vuckovic:	I think if people had a means of using their LSL code in the SL client to extend it, we'd see a sea of plugins come out very quickly. Lots of people have ideas for how to improve the SL client, but very few know how to program in C++ and edit the source code for the viewer.
[8:40]	Babbage Linden:	it may be possible to run JavaScript on Mono in Second Life at some point
[8:40]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	yes c++ is very dificult to work in unless you have years of experience in it
[8:40]	Babbage Linden:	but it's further away from LSL than C# so it would be more work to get it working
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	the possibilities that client side scripting will allow will depend on the API and sandbox
[8:41]	Lillie Yifu:	hmmm
[8:41]	Lillie Yifu:	how do they make lots of different langaages on regular computers?
[8:41]	Lillie Yifu:	Is there a point to making the same process available for sl?
[8:42]	Lillie Yifu:	and then let people make langauges
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	I'd like to start with a few methods for control UI widgets from client side scripts and then grow from there
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	lillie, in theory we will get to the point where we can allow arbitrary CLI assembly upload to SL
[8:42]	Grady Vuckovic:	Also access to the variables in the SL client would be great!
[8:43]	Grady Vuckovic:	That would be nice, but would that be a security threat?
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	then you can write your own languages and upload the compiled bytecode to SL
[8:43]	Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[8:43]	Cale Flanagan:	or storage of values, outside of scripts....
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	but that is also a long way off
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	anyway, I need to head off as I have an engineer interview to do in RL
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[8:43]	Grady Vuckovic:	Good luck with it Babbage
[8:43]	Lillie Yifu:	beijos!
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	and I hope to see you all next week
[8:43]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	you still hasve to be careful then cause you might get people that would end upp actualy hacking the sl servers frim their modified UI's
[8:43]	electroRogue Fizzle:	thx Bab
[8:43]	Lillie Yifu:	thank you babbage!
[8:44]	Aargle Zymurgy:	tanks Babbage
[8:44]	Grady Vuckovic:	Good luck with the interview and cya next week
[8:44]	Aargle Zymurgy:	*thanks even
[8:44]	Yngwie Krogstad:	Good luck with the interview Babbage, thanks for the office hours this morning
[8:45]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	nice meeting you babbage and this has been an enlightting experience