User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 22
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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:
[8:06] | Babbage Linden: | ok, let's give people a couple of minutes to arrive
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[8:06] | Cale Flanagan: | pong
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[8:07] | Aargle Zymurgy: | yay.. it's raining scripters
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[8:07] | Nock Forager: | lol
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[8:07] | belite Ansar: | Hello.
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[8:07] | Cale Flanagan: | y, the name tags get slowly crouded:)
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[8:07] | Babbage Linden: | ok, let's kick off
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[8:07] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | hello everyone
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[8:07] | electroRogue Fizzle: | hi
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[8:08] | Babbage Linden: | here's where we are this week
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[8:08] | belite Ansar: | Hi
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[8:08] | Babbage Linden: | we've just submitted a batch of fixes to be included in 1.25 server
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[8:08] | Babbage Linden: | which resolve http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3102
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[8:09] | JIRA board (small): http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3102
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[8:09] | Babbage Linden: | and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1378
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[8:10] | Babbage Linden: | we've also folded in a resident patch for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2631
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[8:10] | Babbage Linden: | which allows multi line comments in LSL
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[8:10] | Twisted Laws: | YEAH
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[8:10] | electroRogue Fizzle: | YAY
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[8:10] | Babbage Linden: | and some fixes for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3220
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[8:10] | Fake Fitzgerald: | I love multi line comment
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[8:11] | Babbage Linden: | and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2975
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[8:11] | Aargle Zymurgy: | nice
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[8:11] | Babbage Linden: | that will hopefully fix the last of the .NET error message problems we've been having with mono
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[8:11] | Babbage Linden: | thanks to everyone that helped us with http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2908
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[8:12] | Babbage Linden: | it's taken lots of work to resolve all the issues
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[8:12] | Babbage Linden: | and break them apart in to separate problems
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[8:12] | Babbage Linden: | these last fixes should resolve issues where scripts have been under load
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[8:12] | Babbage Linden: | processing many events
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[8:12] | Babbage Linden: | and then fail
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[8:13] | Babbage Linden: | the issue only manifested itself after scripts had queued up 64 events and started dropping events
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[8:13] | Babbage Linden: | which made it initially hard to build a simple repro for
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[8:13] | Babbage Linden: | so, those are the current fixes in the pipe for 1.25 server
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[8:14] | Prana Cale: | wtf
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[8:14] | Babbage Linden: | which should ship in the next few weeks
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[8:14] | Babbage Linden: | we may be able to sneak a couple more fixes in
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[8:14] | Twisted Laws: | very good!
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[8:14] | Babbage Linden: | but most of the high priority issues with Mono should be fixed with 1.25
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[8:14] | Lillie Yifu: | well that was cute
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[8:14] | Yngwie Krogstad: | Awesome news
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[8:14] | Babbage Linden: | the other big news is that HTTP In is now available on the preview grid
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | there are 3 sandboxes there
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | and 1 teen sandbox
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | although there are some problems atm
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | which we will hopefully get to look at this week
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | peri has made a meta JIRA for HTTP In here:
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[8:15] | Babbage Linden: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3238
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[8:15] | Grady Vuckovic: | Awesome (oh and sorry if I'm stepping on anyone, not rezzed yet)
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[8:16] | Babbage Linden: | if you find any problems with HTTP In, please look there first
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[8:16] | Lillie Yifu claps
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[8:16] | Babbage Linden: | and if the issue is not linked from there, please make a new issue and link it
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[8:16] | Babbage Linden: | so we have a central location we can look at to find all the known issues
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[8:17] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | i have seen some peopl in one of the scripting groups im in talking about having a problem with endless redirects occuring
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[8:17] | Babbage Linden: | yes, i need to look at that
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[8:17] | Babbage Linden: | not sure if it's a configuration issue with the preview grid deploy
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[8:18] | Babbage Linden: | we had HTTP In working on an internal development grid before deploying it to the preview grid
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[8:18] | Babbage Linden: | i think the 2 grids may have some configuration differences
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[8:19] | Lillie Yifu: | OGP note, we will then need someo way for scripts to get configuration infomration from their grid
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[8:19] | Grady Vuckovic: | I'm sorry I just got here, what's HTTP In? Or better still a link to read about it? (Save time here)
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[8:19] | Grady Vuckovic: | Ah, got it.
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[8:19] | Lillie Yifu: | since it will not be safe to assume that once the LL grid is fixed that all other grids will also be the same configuration
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[8:20] | Babbage Linden: | grady: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server
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[8:20] | Babbage Linden: | lillie, yes, we need scripts to be able to query their environment
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[8:21] | Babbage Linden: | i was talking to adam frisbie about this at the virtual world conference in london yesterday
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[8:21] | Imaze Rhiano: | any chance to get service for httpin that allows permament redirection to object's temporal urls - like "http://secondlife.com/imaze/rhiano/updates"? Extrernal dynamic DNS and redirection are going to be pain in ass :(
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[8:21] | Babbage Linden: | scripts need to be able to find out what APIs are available
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[8:21] | Babbage Linden: | on grids with different configurations
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[8:22] | Grady Vuckovic: | Could that be done with the llGetRegionInfo()? maybe?
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[8:22] | Babbage Linden: | there needs to be a base set of services that scripts can rely on
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[8:22] | Lillie Yifu: | are zero and zha in the loop about this?
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[8:22] | Babbage Linden: | supported by SL and OpenSim
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[8:22] | Babbage Linden: | but also mechanisms to add new APIs and events
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[8:23] | Lillie Yifu: | gareth and tao will want toknow this too.
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[8:23] | Babbage Linden: | we talked about adding configurable interest management for scripts too
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[8:23] | Twisted Laws: | llRequestSimulatorData(simulator, DATA_SIM_SCRIPTVERSION)
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[8:23] | Babbage Linden: | at the moment scripts are told about events that the object they are in is aware of
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[8:23] | Lillie Yifu: | hmmm
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[8:23] | Lillie Yifu: | I would vote for a cap
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[8:24] | Lillie Yifu: | because different http in servers may well have different api/configuration information
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[8:24] | Lillie Yifu: | the script should get a cap with it's list of available api and configuration information
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[8:24] | Babbage Linden: | but it would be nice if you could write a single script that is told about events affecting other objects
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[8:24] | Babbage Linden: | especially in OpenSim which doesn't support many concurrent scripts
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[8:25] | Lillie Yifu: | lsl could ut the content sof that cap into a list
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[8:25] | Lillie Yifu: | for the script
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[8:25] | Lillie Yifu: | but the script could also simply pass that cap
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[8:25] | Babbage Linden: | it's an interesting idea
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[8:26] | Grady Vuckovic: | Maybe could make a llGetEvents(key object) function. Returns a list of constants with different events accounted for in that prims inventory based on the active scripts?
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[8:26] | Babbage Linden: | many LSL apis could instead be written as web APIs that are queried with llHTTPRequest
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[8:26] | Lillie Yifu: | yes
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[8:26] | Babbage Linden: | so you could have HTTP In invoke a service to give it an URL
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[8:26] | Lillie Yifu: | it's more restful that way
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[8:27] | Babbage Linden: | it would be good to have more XML parsing machinery in LSL to support that though
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[8:27] | Imaze Rhiano: | would be easier to allow scripts just running envinroment where they are compiled - different configuration handling is just making scripts complex and consume their resources
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[8:27] | Babbage Linden: | at the moment the memory limits and parsing constraints make using standard services from LSL hard
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[8:28] | Babbage Linden: | Imaze, the other way of doing it would be supporting includes or references
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[8:28] | Lillie Yifu: | the problem is that the script is compiled once
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[8:28] | Lillie Yifu: | and what server it is onwill change
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[8:28] | Babbage Linden: | which is hard for LSL
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[8:28] | Lillie Yifu: | so if I write an script
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[8:28] | Babbage Linden: | but possible in C#
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[8:29] | Lillie Yifu: | and someone tps to some other grid, or a differently configured server on teh same hetgrid
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[8:29] | Lillie Yifu: | then it will break if it has configuration from compile time
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[8:29] | Lillie Yifu: | config has to be run time here.
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[8:29] | Grady Vuckovic: | I'm currently in the process of making a config notecard reader that has to read XML formatted data and turn it into a tree structure for a menu. Having some useful functions for automate XML reading would be just lovely
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[8:29] | Babbage Linden: | so you might compile a C# script in an environment that supplies OpenSim.SuperExtension
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[8:29] | Babbage Linden: | which would just fail to initialise in SecondLife
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[8:29] | Babbage Linden: | which is often enough
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[8:30] | Lillie Yifu: | ummm hmmm
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[8:30] | Lillie Yifu: | yes icnluds have been somthing that people have wnated for a long time
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[8:30] | Babbage Linden: | lillie, making scripts compatible at the bytecode level will be hard
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[8:30] | Grady Vuckovic: | Mmhm!
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[8:30] | Babbage Linden: | but making C# scripts compatible at the source code level is a good first step
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[8:31] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | that would take a lot of hard coding to do that
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[8:31] | Babbage Linden: | if scripts are just using common functionality supported by Second Life and OpenSim
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[8:31] | Lillie Yifu: | even then there is no assurance that two different sims on the same grid will ahve the same configuration/api list
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[8:31] | Babbage Linden: | they should be at least compatible at the source level
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[8:31] | Grady Vuckovic: | One thing would be nice is being able to run plugins on the actual SL client. Has that been considered?
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[8:32] | Babbage Linden: | i've considered it :-)
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[8:32] | Babbage Linden: | there are a lot of things people would like to do with scripts on the client
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[8:32] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | hat you could do is hav a script do is detect what type of sim it is on and self force a recompile
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[8:32] | Babbage Linden: | internally we'd like to be able to automate the client for testing
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[8:32] | Grady Vuckovic: | Maybe alone the lines of a something similar to the LSLEditor, as in basic level of interupting LSL code
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | i'd also like to have the client transparently download scripts annotated as client scripts
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | which could then send messages to server scripts
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | so for example, if you built a HUD
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | most of the UI code would be marked as a client script
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | and would be downloaded and run on your client when you wore the HUD
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[8:33] | Babbage Linden: | so you get a responsive UI without network round trip latency
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[8:33] | Lillie Yifu: | babbage += 10
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[8:34] | Grady Vuckovic: | Yep, that's what I had in mind too actually. Would be very handy!
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[8:34] | Nock Forager: | hehe
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[8:34] | Babbage Linden: | you could also write client side scripts to do latency hiding
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[8:34] | Babbage Linden: | if you were building an FPS game in SL
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[8:35] | Babbage Linden: | we also want plugins that extend the client
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[8:35] | Grady Vuckovic: | Also it might open up other possible things which could be done, like textboxs, sliders, etc?
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[8:35] | Babbage Linden: | for example to add those GUI elements
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[8:35] | Babbage Linden: | in theory you could do that without a sandbox
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[8:35] | Babbage Linden: | and have some cludgy trust thing
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[8:35] | Babbage Linden: | but I'd rather see a common sandboxed VM like mono be used
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[8:36] | Babbage Linden: | if possible
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[8:36] | Sheryl Mimulus: | I rather the code be sandboxed too
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[8:36] | Babbage Linden: | there's lots of discussion about this internally
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[8:36] | Grady Vuckovic: | Good to hear :)
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[8:36] | Babbage Linden: | we end up with a VM through web browser embedding
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[8:36] | Babbage Linden: | so one option is to use that for client scripting
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[8:36] | Prana Cale: | is there anything planned to syncronize animations?
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[8:36] | Babbage Linden: | in java script
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[8:37] | Grady Vuckovic: | There is some things I would love to do like know exact what point in the sim the agents camera is focused on
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[8:37] | Babbage Linden: | but I'd prefer to see Mono in the client to make client and server scripting in the same languages possible
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[8:37] | Lillie Yifu: | yes
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[8:37] | Grady Vuckovic: | Mmhm, agreed
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[8:38] | Babbage Linden: | the client side scripting is a long way off
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[8:38] | Babbage Linden: | but the viewer automation for testing is going to happen soon
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[8:38] | Babbage Linden: | so I'd like to decide on a technology that can be used for both
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[8:39] | Imaze Rhiano: | javascript have many users - but then silverlight style environment would be closer mono
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[8:39] | Grady Vuckovic: | I think if people had a means of using their LSL code in the SL client to extend it, we'd see a sea of plugins come out very quickly. Lots of people have ideas for how to improve the SL client, but very few know how to program in C++ and edit the source code for the viewer.
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[8:40] | Babbage Linden: | it may be possible to run JavaScript on Mono in Second Life at some point
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[8:40] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | yes c++ is very dificult to work in unless you have years of experience in it
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[8:40] | Babbage Linden: | but it's further away from LSL than C# so it would be more work to get it working
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[8:41] | Babbage Linden: | the possibilities that client side scripting will allow will depend on the API and sandbox
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[8:41] | Lillie Yifu: | hmmm
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[8:41] | Lillie Yifu: | how do they make lots of different langaages on regular computers?
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[8:41] | Lillie Yifu: | Is there a point to making the same process available for sl?
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[8:42] | Lillie Yifu: | and then let people make langauges
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[8:42] | Babbage Linden: | I'd like to start with a few methods for control UI widgets from client side scripts and then grow from there
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[8:42] | Babbage Linden: | lillie, in theory we will get to the point where we can allow arbitrary CLI assembly upload to SL
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[8:42] | Grady Vuckovic: | Also access to the variables in the SL client would be great!
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[8:43] | Grady Vuckovic: | That would be nice, but would that be a security threat?
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[8:43] | Babbage Linden: | then you can write your own languages and upload the compiled bytecode to SL
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[8:43] | Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
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[8:43] | Cale Flanagan: | or storage of values, outside of scripts....
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[8:43] | Babbage Linden: | but that is also a long way off
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[8:43] | Babbage Linden: | anyway, I need to head off as I have an engineer interview to do in RL
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[8:43] | Babbage Linden: | thanks for coming everyone
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[8:43] | Grady Vuckovic: | Good luck with it Babbage
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[8:43] | Lillie Yifu: | beijos!
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[8:43] | Babbage Linden: | and I hope to see you all next week
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[8:43] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | you still hasve to be careful then cause you might get people that would end upp actualy hacking the sl servers frim their modified UI's
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[8:43] | electroRogue Fizzle: | thx Bab
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[8:43] | Lillie Yifu: | thank you babbage!
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[8:44] | Aargle Zymurgy: | tanks Babbage
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[8:44] | Grady Vuckovic: | Good luck with the interview and cya next week
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[8:44] | Aargle Zymurgy: | *thanks even
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[8:44] | Yngwie Krogstad: | Good luck with the interview Babbage, thanks for the office hours this morning
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[8:45] | WolfPup Lowenhar: | nice meeting you babbage and this has been an enlightting experience |