User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 10 07
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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:
[3:13] | Ardy Lay: | Hi Babbage
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[3:13] | Xugu Madison: | Babbage! I knew considering going AFK to get coffee would lure you out
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[3:13] | Babbage Linden: | hello everyone
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[3:13] | Babbage Linden: | how's things?
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[3:13] | Yann Dufaux: | hi babage, long time no see ㋡
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[3:13] | Ardy Lay: | Sleepy
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[3:13] | Nock Forager: | hello babbage
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[3:13] | Xugu Madison: | Better. I have free time again :)
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[3:14] | Xugu Madison: | how's things there?
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[3:14] | Yann Dufaux: | i feel, ok but i need a tea, is 6h15am here ㋡
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[3:14] | Babbage Linden: | i've been looking at plugging content theft exploit holes this week
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[3:14] | Babbage Linden: | which is just about done
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[3:14] | Xugu Madison: | The Neil Life mess?
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[3:15] | Babbage Linden: | we're just working out the deployment plan at the moment
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[3:15] | Nock Forager: | wow, so it's really based on exploit...
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[3:15] | Babbage Linden: | not, sure xugu, can you point me to somewhere?
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[3:15] | Babbage Linden: | i just have the jira reports I'm working from
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[3:16] | Babbage Linden: | and i can't go in to too many details, obviously as we haven't deployed the fixes yet
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[3:16] | Yann Dufaux: | Xugu, Neil life viewer is an parazite viewer i think no?
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[3:16] | Xugu Madison: | I think that covers it
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[3:16] | Babbage Linden: | so, there are some content theft problems that are just based on copying geometry sent to the viewer
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[3:16] | Babbage Linden: | and textures
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[3:16] | Xugu Madison: | Ah, no, this is a completely different content theft problem then :)
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[3:16] | Babbage Linden: | there are not easy technology fixes to those problems
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[3:17] | Babbage Linden: | apart from rendering frames in the cloud and sending video to clients
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[3:17] | Babbage Linden: | but, there are also, occasionally problems with the in world permissions system
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[3:17] | Babbage Linden: | which is what I've been working on this week
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[3:18] | Babbage Linden: | the current path which is being exploited will be much more secure shortly
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[3:18] | Xugu Madison: | Good to hear!
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[3:18] | Yann Dufaux: | Babbage, i know that its an big big troubles, this bad opensource , but without fixes for the moment i think you can give to somes user the right to detect this bad viewer ㋡
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[3:18] | Xugu Madison: | You'll tell us all about it once fixed, right?
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[3:18] | artoo Magneto applauds ^^
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[3:18] | Babbage Linden: | which will hopefully please content creators
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[3:18] | Babbage Linden: | it's very difficult to detect bad viewers
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[3:19] | Babbage Linden: | as they can always claim to be good viewers
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[3:19] | Babbage Linden: | the fixes need to be on the server side
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[3:19] | Xugu Madison nodnods
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[3:19] | Babbage Linden: | which is what I've been working on this week
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[3:19] | Yann Dufaux: | why cryolife are detected by some script and not the other bad viewer?
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[3:19] | Xugu Madison: | Is there any hope of catching duplicates of existing objects, out of curiousity? I suspect it's infeasible due to database size, but...
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[3:20] | Babbage Linden: | xugu, that's really hard too
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[3:20] | Nock Forager: | So these huge Banning is only for users of the exploit?
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[3:20] | Babbage Linden: | as the database is huge
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[3:20] | Ardy Lay: | For a script to detect a viewer, the viewer has to chat on a channel.
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[3:20] | Liisa Runo: | the script just listen channel -777777777 and detects cryolife with that, but not all cryolifers send that message
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[3:20] | Babbage Linden: | you could potentially use hadoop to detect duplicates
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[3:20] | Yann Dufaux: | channels - 77777, is the radar of emrald ㋡
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[3:20] | Ovaltine Constantine: | -777777777 is Emerald
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[3:20] | Babbage Linden: | but then people would just slighty jitter objects to make them not match
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[3:21] | Babbage Linden: | you'd have to allow for "close matches" as duplicates
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[3:21] | Liisa Runo: | ah, well, to me their all the same, cant remember the names :P
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[3:21] | Ovaltine Constantine: | You're thinking of 8281825
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[3:21] | Xugu Madison nods "Same problem you hit with textures, I imagine. Far too easy to make a texture very different on disk, but look virtually identical"
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[3:21] | Babbage Linden: | at which point you'd get false positives
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[3:21] | Babbage Linden: | and call things theft that aren't
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[3:22] | Babbage Linden: | in order to be effective, duplicate detection would have to detect everything that wasn't jittered to destruction and not match objects that aren't mechnical copies
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[3:22] | Babbage Linden: | i don't think that's doable
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[3:22] | Nock Forager: | ya techinically yes, but should do something for casual copy.
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[3:22] | artoo Magneto: | same for animations, i assume
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[3:23] | Babbage Linden: | if to detected complete matches
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[3:23] | Xugu Madison: | Wouldn't it be good enough to have it be able to highlight things for someone to check manually. Even if you merely increase the chance of catching a copy, it makes it riskier for the copiers. Just a thought...
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[3:23] | Babbage Linden: | copying viewers would just offset a prim by a few CM
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[3:23] | Babbage Linden: | also, there are legal issues involved in looking at content
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[3:24] | Babbage Linden: | i am not a lawyer, but once you start looking at uploaded content you can have issues as a common carrier
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[3:24] | Xugu Madison: | Good point
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[3:24] | Yann Dufaux: | but babbage, but the other solution are radical, to charge some fees for importe xmls fils to the hd ㋡
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[3:24] | Babbage Linden: | so, even if we found some duplicates, we might be in trouble for looking and not finding all duplicates
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[3:25] | Babbage Linden: | yann, yes, there are non-technical solutions that add friction
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[3:25] | Babbage Linden: | which are being looked in to
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[3:25] | Xugu Madison: | You would be, by my understanding, now you mention it. It's a daft set of laws that you either can, or cannot filter. There is no trying to catch waht you can and accept it's incomplete
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[3:25] | Babbage Linden: | but, we're getting quite a long way from my bug fixing this week ;-)
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[3:25] | Babbage Linden: | i'll just say that all the content theft issues are being looked in to and discussed
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[3:26] | Ardy Lay: | Babbage, I was told last week that you were interested in my bricks.
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[3:26] | artoo Magneto: | dont forget forced permission on animations... that worries me personaly the most atm
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[3:26] | Babbage Linden: | and that where we can we will implement technical fixes as soon as possble
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[3:26] | Yann Dufaux: | well!! ㋡
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[3:26] | Yann Dufaux: | this is a great news ㋡
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[3:27] | Babbage Linden: | so, hopefully i will be done with these exploit fixes this week
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[3:27] | Liisa Runo: | wild idea: new flag to textures: "this texture can only exist in prim created by the same person"
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[3:28] | Babbage Linden: | once i have wrangled the deployment plan
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[3:28] | Babbage Linden: | then i'll be moving back on to script limits analysis
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[3:28] | Yann Dufaux: | i have other question why , on other user can crash a simple viewer .. is possible!
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[3:28] | LordGregGreg Back: | that flag would be lost after a evil export / import
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[3:28] | Babbage Linden: | and simulator memory usage analysis in general to feed back in to our performance improvement work
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[3:29] | Babbage Linden: | yann, my fixes will help there too
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[3:29] | Babbage Linden: | as they also avoid corrupt content being uploaded
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[3:29] | Liisa Runo: | import cost money, and when LL some day start to actually remove stolen content when found, botters dont want to re upload the sculpts over and over again
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[3:29] | Babbage Linden: | which can be downloaded to other viewers to crash them
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[3:29] | Xugu Madison: | Anything coming in terms of user-visible web services, BTW? Wondered about things like uploading images by web service (for those of us who generate images programmatically)?
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[3:29] | Babbage Linden: | liisa, that is a possibility
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[3:30] | Babbage Linden: | xugu, we're currently hiring for that role
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[3:30] | Liisa Runo: | <3
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[3:30] | Babbage Linden: | the person who will lead opening up our data via web services
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[3:30] | Yann Dufaux: | okey, because some times is a crap on french sandbox, abnout this some griefers use that to crash all ppeople
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[3:30] | Babbage Linden: | the big piece there again is permissions and authentication
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[3:30] | Yann Dufaux: | about*
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[3:30] | Babbage Linden: | some information you want available
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[3:31] | Babbage Linden: | like public events you're running
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[3:31] | Babbage Linden: | but you also want to have private events that are only viewable by certain people
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[3:31] | Babbage Linden: | we currently have the capabilities system for making services accessible
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[3:31] | Imaze Rhiano: | Have you (or someone in your team) had time to look SVC-3895 ("Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS") ?
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[3:32] | Babbage Linden: | we need to work out whether that is the right way to do public web services
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[3:32] | Babbage Linden: | imaze, we talked a lot about that last week
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[3:32] | Babbage Linden: | we will be looking in to it soon
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[3:32] | Ovaltine Constantine: | Does soon mean next year?
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[3:32] | Babbage Linden: | it probably needs to be folded in to the asynchronous rez work
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[3:32] | Babbage Linden: | it means end of this year, start of next year
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[3:33] | Babbage Linden: | there may be a simple fix, in which case we'll try to get it in to 1.34
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[3:33] | Babbage Linden: | but if what we need to do is put rezzing in another thread, that's a lot of work
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[3:33] | Babbage Linden: | question: is this a new mono issue, or has it always been around?
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[3:34] | Babbage Linden: | i don't remember problems with rezzing when we were developing mono or testing it in beta
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[3:34] | Babbage Linden: | (i remember rezzing 100s of scripted boxes at a time while checking time dilation and FPS)
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[3:34] | Ardy Lay: | There is a profound difference between LSL and MONO in rez and derez impact on simulators.
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[3:34] | Ovaltine Constantine: | Not sure, but I recompiled all the scripts in my FauxTool (red and blue thingy on my shoulder) to LSL and now region crossings are barely noticable to me
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[3:34] | Imaze Rhiano: | I personally haven't experienced that - or at elast noticed - but I think this is mostly happening in busy Sims
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[3:35] | Liisa Runo: | complete sim froze dont show up in TD and FPS
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[3:35] | Ardy Lay: | Right, interframe work is increased dramatically with MONO
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[3:35] | Imaze Rhiano: | Issue is created 24/Feb/09 10:49 AM
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[3:35] | Babbage Linden: | anyway, I'll go through the jira reports once I'm done with this exploit fix
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[3:35] | Babbage Linden: | please chat JIRAs now, so I can find them in the office hour logs :-D
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[3:36] | Ardy Lay: | I have an easy reproduction handy, as do many others.
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[3:36] | Ovaltine Constantine: | Usually I notice when I cross into another region because I can't stop flying for like 10 seconds, but I was flying around earlier and didn't even notice I was in a different sim
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[3:36] | Ardy Lay: | Big performance issuses: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4537
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[3:36] | Babbage Linden: | please write up repros in JIRA and then give any objects I need to test with to me
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[3:37] | Babbage Linden: | apart from exploit fixing we've been interviewing new engineers in brighton
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[3:37] | Babbage Linden: | and so will hopefully have our C# team together soon
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[3:38] | Babbage Linden: | which is great news
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[3:38] | Yann Dufaux: | what the environement, what tjhe viewer and computer setting?
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[3:38] | Xugu Madison eyes the web dev jobs at LL "Always requiring languages I don't know :("
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[3:38] | Xugu Madison: | Yes! C# team GOOD!
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[3:39] | Babbage Linden: | xugu, learn python, it's great
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[3:39] | Yann Dufaux: | i look this jiras, and i see no environement
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[3:39] | Babbage Linden: | and C#, obviously
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[3:39] | Xugu Madison adds Python to the to-do list
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[3:40] | artoo Magneto: | do you know about the new dmca system too babbage ?... it says it can entirely remove content from suspended accounts
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[3:40] | artoo Magneto: | entirely from the grid
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[3:40] | Babbage Linden: | no, i haven't been involved in that
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[3:40] | Liisa Runo: | sounds awesome
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[3:40] | Babbage Linden: | but i know there is work going on there
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[3:41] | artoo Magneto: | ok.. it was communicated in sldev.. i just look forward for it
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[3:41] | Babbage Linden: | again to address content theft and support content creators
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[3:41] | artoo Magneto: | yea... people spread my animations widely and fullperm.. just from people to people.. its a true mess
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[3:42] | Babbage Linden: | it's a very difficult problem to solve
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[3:42] | Liisa Runo vawes bye bye to noob sculpts and yellow lamborgini you see every place
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[3:42] | Babbage Linden: | see also the music and movie industry's struggling
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[3:43] | Babbage Linden: | content creators in SL have the same problems as sony and emi
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[3:43] | Babbage Linden: | and content creators on the web
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[3:43] | Yann Dufaux: | yeah, you know the same trouble since you have give all source code ㋡
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[3:44] | Babbage Linden: | scripts in SL provide more protection
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[3:44] | Babbage Linden: | as they aren't sent to the viewer
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[3:44] | Babbage Linden: | but for people creating and selling animations or textures or objects it's hard
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[3:44] | Babbage Linden: | but we're doing all we can to help
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[3:44] | Babbage Linden: | from a technical and policy perspective
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[3:45] | Babbage Linden: | and there are lots of people linden looking in to the problem
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[3:45] | artoo Magneto: | good to hear
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[3:45] | Yann Dufaux: | well, i think you need to clarify the ToS with this big viewer probleme ㋡
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[3:45] | Babbage Linden: | and there will also always be people who are prepared to pay
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[3:46] | Babbage Linden: | and do the right thing
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[3:46] | Liisa Runo: | there is no way to completely prevent copybotting (exept sending only video to clients) but if LL get tools to remove assets, the botting will not be so popular (now i see copybotter in sandbox every day)
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[3:47] | Babbage Linden: | lissa, yes, i agree
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[3:47] | Xugu Madison: | Liisa, and there are some approaches to extracting geometry from video of an object, so even that wouldn't be a permanent fix
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[3:47] | Babbage Linden: | and we're looking in to it
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[3:47] | Yann Dufaux: | Liisa, i see 2 per day for the french side, and its very hard to send a AR, if i have no prof
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[3:48] | Babbage Linden: | right, just making it easier to say i saw something suspicious here
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[3:48] | Babbage Linden: | please check uploads by this account
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[3:48] | Babbage Linden: | would help
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[3:48] | Liisa Runo: | i collect pictures that show copybot, puppetmaster, and orginal creator inspected
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[3:48] | Yann Dufaux: | okey thanks to this precision, babage ㋡
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[3:48] | Ardy Lay: | I wouldn't know how to tell they are copying. What can I look for?
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[3:49] | Babbage Linden: | right, it is easy to make undectable
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[3:49] | Babbage Linden: | undetectable, even
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[3:49] | Babbage Linden: | as copying is just the same as viewing
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[3:50] | Babbage Linden: | and everything copied can be uploaded later somewhere else
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[3:50] | Babbage Linden: | so, yes, very hard
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[3:50] | Babbage Linden: | but being worked on at linden
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[3:50] | Babbage Linden: | right, i need to head of soon
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[3:50] | Babbage Linden: | is there anything else we should talk about today?
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[3:50] | Yann Dufaux: | if an noob of 2 day are a creator of the hair or all clothing on this last .. is very suspicious ㋡
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[3:50] | Xugu Madison: | I need to head too, we're about to be unplugged. Good meeting, thanks for the updates Babbage, see you all next week!
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[3:51] | Yann Dufaux: | well, how i can verify the creator clothing? ㋡
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[3:51] | Babbage Linden: | i was thinking about this the other day
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[3:51] | Yann Dufaux: | i can't with the inspect
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[3:51] | Ardy Lay: | Is the copying activity typically done by new, anonymous accounts?
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[3:52] | Babbage Linden: | a good clothing business to be in would be one that makes reactive clothes
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[3:52] | artoo Magneto: | yea.. inspection of clothing and animations would be a great help.. also to see the permissions the owner has
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[3:52] | artoo Magneto: | like for attachments
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[3:52] | Babbage Linden: | that are scripted and respond to the environment
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[3:52] | Babbage Linden: | if interactivity is an important feature
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[3:52] | Babbage Linden: | they become much harder to copy
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[3:52] | Babbage Linden: | as you would need the scripts too
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[3:52] | Ardy Lay: | But add to the script load and the related issues.
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[3:53] | Babbage Linden: | yes, but they wouldn't need to be complicated
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[3:53] | Babbage Linden: | also, you could servicify your clothes business
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[3:53] | Ardy Lay: | Simply exsisting is adding to the issues I mentioned.
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[3:53] | Babbage Linden: | sell subscriptions to your clothes instead of objects
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[3:54] | Babbage Linden: | invite subscibers to catwalk events
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[3:54] | Babbage Linden: | give them the latest and greatest creations there
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[3:54] | Ardy Lay: | Complexity of the script does not make a difference in the rez-derez issues.
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[3:54] | Babbage Linden: | similar to the new business models used in music
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[3:54] | Babbage Linden: | very interesting area
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[3:54] | artoo Magneto: | yea.. i have updaters and hud on my items... people copy them anyway
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[3:55] | Babbage Linden: | ok, i need to head off, any last thoughts?
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[3:55] | artoo Magneto: | they either get a expensive full featured original... or a free stolen copy without functionality..
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[3:55] | Babbage Linden: | right, and that is a choice artoo
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[3:56] | Babbage Linden: | so, you have some aspect that is not copyable
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[3:56] | LordGregGreg Back: | thank god there are people who actualy respect creators and will do the right thing.
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[3:56] | artoo Magneto: | yea.. i keep inspecting soreal shoes.. 95% are stolen
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[3:56] | Babbage Linden should actually get some shoes at some point
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[3:57] | Ardy Lay: | I have good feet. I don't need shoes. :-)
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[3:57] | Babbage Linden: | if anyone knows where to get good victorian gents shoes, please let me know :-D
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[3:57] | artoo Magneto: | *fully featured ;D
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[3:57] | artoo Magneto: | okey.. thanks for working on the viewer problem
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[3:57] | artoo Magneto: | and all that
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[3:57] | Babbage Linden: | i will pay good money for them, naturally
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[3:58] | Babbage Linden: | ;-)
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[3:58] | Ardy Lay: | Hehe
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[3:58] | Babbage Linden: | thanks for coming everyone
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[3:58] | Babbage Linden: | see you all next time
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[3:58] | Imaze Rhiano: | bye babbage
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[3:58] | Nock Forager: | thank you for the meeting, babbage.
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[3:58] | Elric Ember: | Swank Brothers has Victorian shoes for men
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[3:58] | artoo Magneto: | is this meeting weekly ?
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[3:58] | Imaze Rhiano: | yes artoo
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[3:58] | artoo Magneto: | ok
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[3:59] | Nock Forager: | ah some advertisement. We will have LSL Convention from this weekend @ New Script region.
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[3:59] | Nock Forager: | Anyone interested feel free to come :)
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[3:59] | artoo Magneto: | tp me then :D
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[4:00] | Nock Forager: | Will call you up at this week end :)
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[4:00] | artoo Magneto: | ^^ cu then
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[4:00] | artoo Magneto: | xx
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[4:00] | artoo Magneto: | bye all |