User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 10 07

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[3:13] Ardy Lay: Hi Babbage

[3:13] Xugu Madison: Babbage! I knew considering going AFK to get coffee would lure you out

[3:13] Babbage Linden: hello everyone

[3:13] Babbage Linden: how's things?

[3:13] Yann Dufaux: hi babage, long time no see ㋡

[3:13] Ardy Lay: Sleepy

[3:13] Nock Forager: hello babbage

[3:13] Xugu Madison: Better. I have free time again :)

[3:14] Xugu Madison: how's things there?

[3:14] Yann Dufaux: i feel, ok but i need a tea, is 6h15am here ㋡

[3:14] Babbage Linden: i've been looking at plugging content theft exploit holes this week

[3:14] Babbage Linden: which is just about done

[3:14] Xugu Madison: The Neil Life mess?

[3:15] Babbage Linden: we're just working out the deployment plan at the moment

[3:15] Nock Forager: wow, so it's really based on exploit...

[3:15] Babbage Linden: not, sure xugu, can you point me to somewhere?

[3:15] Babbage Linden: i just have the jira reports I'm working from

[3:16] Babbage Linden: and i can't go in to too many details, obviously as we haven't deployed the fixes yet

[3:16] Yann Dufaux: Xugu, Neil life viewer is an parazite viewer i think no?

[3:16] Xugu Madison: I think that covers it

[3:16] Babbage Linden: so, there are some content theft problems that are just based on copying geometry sent to the viewer

[3:16] Babbage Linden: and textures

[3:16] Xugu Madison: Ah, no, this is a completely different content theft problem then :)

[3:16] Babbage Linden: there are not easy technology fixes to those problems

[3:17] Babbage Linden: apart from rendering frames in the cloud and sending video to clients

[3:17] Babbage Linden: but, there are also, occasionally problems with the in world permissions system

[3:17] Babbage Linden: which is what I've been working on this week

[3:18] Babbage Linden: the current path which is being exploited will be much more secure shortly

[3:18] Xugu Madison: Good to hear!

[3:18] Yann Dufaux: Babbage, i know that its an big big troubles, this bad opensource , but without fixes for the moment i think you can give to somes user the right to detect this bad viewer ㋡

[3:18] Xugu Madison: You'll tell us all about it once fixed, right?

[3:18] artoo Magneto applauds ^^

[3:18] Babbage Linden: which will hopefully please content creators

[3:18] Babbage Linden: it's very difficult to detect bad viewers

[3:19] Babbage Linden: as they can always claim to be good viewers

[3:19] Babbage Linden: the fixes need to be on the server side

[3:19] Xugu Madison nodnods

[3:19] Babbage Linden: which is what I've been working on this week

[3:19] Yann Dufaux: why cryolife are detected by some script and not the other bad viewer?

[3:19] Xugu Madison: Is there any hope of catching duplicates of existing objects, out of curiousity? I suspect it's infeasible due to database size, but...

[3:20] Babbage Linden: xugu, that's really hard too

[3:20] Nock Forager: So these huge Banning is only for users of the exploit?

[3:20] Babbage Linden: as the database is huge

[3:20] Ardy Lay: For a script to detect a viewer, the viewer has to chat on a channel.

[3:20] Liisa Runo: the script just listen channel -777777777 and detects cryolife with that, but not all cryolifers send that message

[3:20] Babbage Linden: you could potentially use hadoop to detect duplicates

[3:20] Yann Dufaux: channels - 77777, is the radar of emrald ㋡

[3:20] Ovaltine Constantine: -777777777 is Emerald

[3:20] Babbage Linden: but then people would just slighty jitter objects to make them not match

[3:21] Babbage Linden: you'd have to allow for "close matches" as duplicates

[3:21] Liisa Runo: ah, well, to me their all the same, cant remember the names :P

[3:21] Ovaltine Constantine: You're thinking of 8281825

[3:21] Xugu Madison nods "Same problem you hit with textures, I imagine. Far too easy to make a texture very different on disk, but look virtually identical"

[3:21] Babbage Linden: at which point you'd get false positives

[3:21] Babbage Linden: and call things theft that aren't

[3:22] Babbage Linden: in order to be effective, duplicate detection would have to detect everything that wasn't jittered to destruction and not match objects that aren't mechnical copies

[3:22] Babbage Linden: i don't think that's doable

[3:22] Nock Forager: ya techinically yes, but should do something for casual copy.

[3:22] artoo Magneto: same for animations, i assume

[3:23] Babbage Linden: if to detected complete matches

[3:23] Xugu Madison: Wouldn't it be good enough to have it be able to highlight things for someone to check manually. Even if you merely increase the chance of catching a copy, it makes it riskier for the copiers. Just a thought...

[3:23] Babbage Linden: copying viewers would just offset a prim by a few CM

[3:23] Babbage Linden: also, there are legal issues involved in looking at content

[3:24] Babbage Linden: i am not a lawyer, but once you start looking at uploaded content you can have issues as a common carrier

[3:24] Xugu Madison: Good point

[3:24] Yann Dufaux: but babbage, but the other solution are radical, to charge some fees for importe xmls fils to the hd ㋡

[3:24] Babbage Linden: so, even if we found some duplicates, we might be in trouble for looking and not finding all duplicates

[3:25] Babbage Linden: yann, yes, there are non-technical solutions that add friction

[3:25] Babbage Linden: which are being looked in to

[3:25] Xugu Madison: You would be, by my understanding, now you mention it. It's a daft set of laws that you either can, or cannot filter. There is no trying to catch waht you can and accept it's incomplete

[3:25] Babbage Linden: but, we're getting quite a long way from my bug fixing this week ;-)

[3:25] Babbage Linden: i'll just say that all the content theft issues are being looked in to and discussed

[3:26] Ardy Lay: Babbage, I was told last week that you were interested in my bricks.

[3:26] artoo Magneto: dont forget forced permission on animations... that worries me personaly the most atm

[3:26] Babbage Linden: and that where we can we will implement technical fixes as soon as possble

[3:26] Yann Dufaux: well!! ㋡

[3:26] Yann Dufaux: this is a great news ㋡

[3:27] Babbage Linden: so, hopefully i will be done with these exploit fixes this week

[3:27] Liisa Runo: wild idea: new flag to textures: "this texture can only exist in prim created by the same person"

[3:28] Babbage Linden: once i have wrangled the deployment plan

[3:28] Babbage Linden: then i'll be moving back on to script limits analysis

[3:28] Yann Dufaux: i have other question why , on other user can crash a simple viewer .. is possible!

[3:28] LordGregGreg Back: that flag would be lost after a evil export / import

[3:28] Babbage Linden: and simulator memory usage analysis in general to feed back in to our performance improvement work

[3:29] Babbage Linden: yann, my fixes will help there too

[3:29] Babbage Linden: as they also avoid corrupt content being uploaded

[3:29] Liisa Runo: import cost money, and when LL some day start to actually remove stolen content when found, botters dont want to re upload the sculpts over and over again

[3:29] Babbage Linden: which can be downloaded to other viewers to crash them

[3:29] Xugu Madison: Anything coming in terms of user-visible web services, BTW? Wondered about things like uploading images by web service (for those of us who generate images programmatically)?

[3:29] Babbage Linden: liisa, that is a possibility

[3:30] Babbage Linden: xugu, we're currently hiring for that role

[3:30] Liisa Runo: <3

[3:30] Babbage Linden: the person who will lead opening up our data via web services

[3:30] Yann Dufaux: okey, because some times is a crap on french sandbox, abnout this some griefers use that to crash all ppeople

[3:30] Babbage Linden: the big piece there again is permissions and authentication

[3:30] Yann Dufaux: about*

[3:30] Babbage Linden: some information you want available

[3:31] Babbage Linden: like public events you're running

[3:31] Babbage Linden: but you also want to have private events that are only viewable by certain people

[3:31] Babbage Linden: we currently have the capabilities system for making services accessible

[3:31] Imaze Rhiano: Have you (or someone in your team) had time to look SVC-3895 ("Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS") ?

[3:32] Babbage Linden: we need to work out whether that is the right way to do public web services

[3:32] Babbage Linden: imaze, we talked a lot about that last week

[3:32] Babbage Linden: we will be looking in to it soon

[3:32] Ovaltine Constantine: Does soon mean next year?

[3:32] Babbage Linden: it probably needs to be folded in to the asynchronous rez work

[3:32] Babbage Linden: it means end of this year, start of next year

[3:33] Babbage Linden: there may be a simple fix, in which case we'll try to get it in to 1.34

[3:33] Babbage Linden: but if what we need to do is put rezzing in another thread, that's a lot of work

[3:33] Babbage Linden: question: is this a new mono issue, or has it always been around?

[3:34] Babbage Linden: i don't remember problems with rezzing when we were developing mono or testing it in beta

[3:34] Babbage Linden: (i remember rezzing 100s of scripted boxes at a time while checking time dilation and FPS)

[3:34] Ardy Lay: There is a profound difference between LSL and MONO in rez and derez impact on simulators.

[3:34] Ovaltine Constantine: Not sure, but I recompiled all the scripts in my FauxTool (red and blue thingy on my shoulder) to LSL and now region crossings are barely noticable to me

[3:34] Imaze Rhiano: I personally haven't experienced that - or at elast noticed - but I think this is mostly happening in busy Sims

[3:35] Liisa Runo: complete sim froze dont show up in TD and FPS

[3:35] Ardy Lay: Right, interframe work is increased dramatically with MONO

[3:35] Imaze Rhiano: Issue is created 24/Feb/09 10:49 AM

[3:35] Babbage Linden: anyway, I'll go through the jira reports once I'm done with this exploit fix

[3:35] Babbage Linden: please chat JIRAs now, so I can find them in the office hour logs :-D

[3:36] Ardy Lay: I have an easy reproduction handy, as do many others.

[3:36] Ovaltine Constantine: Usually I notice when I cross into another region because I can't stop flying for like 10 seconds, but I was flying around earlier and didn't even notice I was in a different sim

[3:36] Ardy Lay: Big performance issuses: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4537

[3:36] Babbage Linden: please write up repros in JIRA and then give any objects I need to test with to me

[3:37] Babbage Linden: apart from exploit fixing we've been interviewing new engineers in brighton

[3:37] Babbage Linden: and so will hopefully have our C# team together soon

[3:38] Babbage Linden: which is great news

[3:38] Yann Dufaux: what the environement, what tjhe viewer and computer setting?

[3:38] Xugu Madison eyes the web dev jobs at LL "Always requiring languages I don't know :("

[3:38] Xugu Madison: Yes! C# team GOOD!

[3:39] Babbage Linden: xugu, learn python, it's great

[3:39] Yann Dufaux: i look this jiras, and i see no environement

[3:39] Babbage Linden: and C#, obviously

[3:39] Xugu Madison adds Python to the to-do list

[3:40] artoo Magneto: do you know about the new dmca system too babbage ?... it says it can entirely remove content from suspended accounts

[3:40] artoo Magneto: entirely from the grid

[3:40] Babbage Linden: no, i haven't been involved in that

[3:40] Liisa Runo: sounds awesome

[3:40] Babbage Linden: but i know there is work going on there

[3:41] artoo Magneto: ok.. it was communicated in sldev.. i just look forward for it

[3:41] Babbage Linden: again to address content theft and support content creators

[3:41] artoo Magneto: yea... people spread my animations widely and fullperm.. just from people to people.. its a true mess

[3:42] Babbage Linden: it's a very difficult problem to solve

[3:42] Liisa Runo vawes bye bye to noob sculpts and yellow lamborgini you see every place

[3:42] Babbage Linden: see also the music and movie industry's struggling

[3:43] Babbage Linden: content creators in SL have the same problems as sony and emi

[3:43] Babbage Linden: and content creators on the web

[3:43] Yann Dufaux: yeah, you know the same trouble since you have give all source code ㋡

[3:44] Babbage Linden: scripts in SL provide more protection

[3:44] Babbage Linden: as they aren't sent to the viewer

[3:44] Babbage Linden: but for people creating and selling animations or textures or objects it's hard

[3:44] Babbage Linden: but we're doing all we can to help

[3:44] Babbage Linden: from a technical and policy perspective

[3:45] Babbage Linden: and there are lots of people linden looking in to the problem

[3:45] artoo Magneto: good to hear

[3:45] Yann Dufaux: well, i think you need to clarify the ToS with this big viewer probleme ㋡

[3:45] Babbage Linden: and there will also always be people who are prepared to pay

[3:46] Babbage Linden: and do the right thing

[3:46] Liisa Runo: there is no way to completely prevent copybotting (exept sending only video to clients) but if LL get tools to remove assets, the botting will not be so popular (now i see copybotter in sandbox every day)

[3:47] Babbage Linden: lissa, yes, i agree

[3:47] Xugu Madison: Liisa, and there are some approaches to extracting geometry from video of an object, so even that wouldn't be a permanent fix

[3:47] Babbage Linden: and we're looking in to it

[3:47] Yann Dufaux: Liisa, i see 2 per day for the french side, and its very hard to send a AR, if i have no prof

[3:48] Babbage Linden: right, just making it easier to say i saw something suspicious here

[3:48] Babbage Linden: please check uploads by this account

[3:48] Babbage Linden: would help

[3:48] Liisa Runo: i collect pictures that show copybot, puppetmaster, and orginal creator inspected

[3:48] Yann Dufaux: okey thanks to this precision, babage ㋡

[3:48] Ardy Lay: I wouldn't know how to tell they are copying. What can I look for?

[3:49] Babbage Linden: right, it is easy to make undectable

[3:49] Babbage Linden: undetectable, even

[3:49] Babbage Linden: as copying is just the same as viewing

[3:50] Babbage Linden: and everything copied can be uploaded later somewhere else

[3:50] Babbage Linden: so, yes, very hard

[3:50] Babbage Linden: but being worked on at linden

[3:50] Babbage Linden: right, i need to head of soon

[3:50] Babbage Linden: is there anything else we should talk about today?

[3:50] Yann Dufaux: if an noob of 2 day are a creator of the hair or all clothing on this last .. is very suspicious ㋡

[3:50] Xugu Madison: I need to head too, we're about to be unplugged. Good meeting, thanks for the updates Babbage, see you all next week!

[3:51] Yann Dufaux: well, how i can verify the creator clothing? ㋡

[3:51] Babbage Linden: i was thinking about this the other day

[3:51] Yann Dufaux: i can't with the inspect

[3:51] Ardy Lay: Is the copying activity typically done by new, anonymous accounts?

[3:52] Babbage Linden: a good clothing business to be in would be one that makes reactive clothes

[3:52] artoo Magneto: yea.. inspection of clothing and animations would be a great help.. also to see the permissions the owner has

[3:52] artoo Magneto: like for attachments

[3:52] Babbage Linden: that are scripted and respond to the environment

[3:52] Babbage Linden: if interactivity is an important feature

[3:52] Babbage Linden: they become much harder to copy

[3:52] Babbage Linden: as you would need the scripts too

[3:52] Ardy Lay: But add to the script load and the related issues.

[3:53] Babbage Linden: yes, but they wouldn't need to be complicated

[3:53] Babbage Linden: also, you could servicify your clothes business

[3:53] Ardy Lay: Simply exsisting is adding to the issues I mentioned.

[3:53] Babbage Linden: sell subscriptions to your clothes instead of objects

[3:54] Babbage Linden: invite subscibers to catwalk events

[3:54] Babbage Linden: give them the latest and greatest creations there

[3:54] Ardy Lay: Complexity of the script does not make a difference in the rez-derez issues.

[3:54] Babbage Linden: similar to the new business models used in music

[3:54] Babbage Linden: very interesting area

[3:54] artoo Magneto: yea.. i have updaters and hud on my items... people copy them anyway

[3:55] Babbage Linden: ok, i need to head off, any last thoughts?

[3:55] artoo Magneto: they either get a expensive full featured original... or a free stolen copy without functionality..

[3:55] Babbage Linden: right, and that is a choice artoo

[3:56] Babbage Linden: so, you have some aspect that is not copyable

[3:56] LordGregGreg Back: thank god there are people who actualy respect creators and will do the right thing.

[3:56] artoo Magneto: yea.. i keep inspecting soreal shoes.. 95% are stolen

[3:56] Babbage Linden should actually get some shoes at some point

[3:57] Ardy Lay: I have good feet. I don't need shoes. :-)

[3:57] Babbage Linden: if anyone knows where to get good victorian gents shoes, please let me know :-D

[3:57] artoo Magneto: *fully featured ;D

[3:57] artoo Magneto: okey.. thanks for working on the viewer problem

[3:57] artoo Magneto: and all that

[3:57] Babbage Linden: i will pay good money for them, naturally

[3:58] Babbage Linden: ;-)

[3:58] Ardy Lay: Hehe

[3:58] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming everyone

[3:58] Babbage Linden: see you all next time

[3:58] Imaze Rhiano: bye babbage

[3:58] Nock Forager: thank you for the meeting, babbage.

[3:58] Elric Ember: Swank Brothers has Victorian shoes for men

[3:58] artoo Magneto: is this meeting weekly ?

[3:58] Imaze Rhiano: yes artoo

[3:58] artoo Magneto: ok

[3:59] Nock Forager: ah some advertisement. We will have LSL Convention from this weekend @ New Script region.

[3:59] Nock Forager: Anyone interested feel free to come :)

[3:59] artoo Magneto: tp me then :D

[4:00] Nock Forager: Will call you up at this week end :)

[4:00] artoo Magneto: ^^ cu then

[4:00] artoo Magneto: xx

[4:00] artoo Magneto: bye all
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