User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-01-24

[15:11] Jacek Antonelli: Hiya Ben! [15:11] You: hi folks! [15:11] You: so sorry for being late [15:11] Jason Swain: Hello Benjamin ^^ [15:11] Squirrel Wood: Hello Benjamin :) [15:11] You: how is everyone? [15:11] Jacek Antonelli: Good :) [15:11] Jason Swain: Great thanks ^^ [15:12] Squirrel Wood: Doing fine here :) [15:12] You: I'm in San Francisco this week, so running around like crazy meeting with folks [15:12] Squirrel Wood: ^^ [15:12] Jacek Antonelli: Ben: I've got a little something to tell/ask you, I'll shoot you an IM, okay? [15:12] Jason Swain: That sounds fun and exusting [15:12] You: sure sounds fine, Jacek [15:12] You: yes, I always have fun down here [15:12] You: but it's very busy! [15:13] Jason Swain: Glad to see they are keeping you busy ;) [15:13] Squirrel Wood: busy... the opposite of what I am at work ^^ [15:13] You: lol [15:13] You: that explains how you can be such a loyal attendee, Squirrel :-) [15:13] Squirrel Wood: I can't get onto Sl from work at all [15:14] Jason Swain: hehe its 12:13 AM for squirrel [15:14] You: I really enjoyed our conversation last week about landmarks [15:14] Squirrel Wood: besides, it is past midnight here ^^ [15:14] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, that was a great discussion last week [15:14] Squirrel Wood: Indeed! [15:15] You: I'm going to pull up my chat logs and see where we left off and see if there are any points to delve deeper on [15:15] Squirrel Wood: One point was on how to best organize them [15:16] Squirrel Wood: and I think I suggested adding a flag to them to set them "active" like gestures [15:16] Jacek Antonelli: *nods* And we were also talking about how LMs and Picks relate to each other, and a possible idea for "Favorites" [15:16] You: yes, I remember that point [15:16] You: do you have opinions about how web browsers handle bookmarks? [15:17] You: things you really like or dislike that we can take into account? [15:17] Squirrel Wood: hmm.. [15:17] Squirrel Wood: firefox stores them all in an xml file [15:17] You: we could do something as basic as the bookmark management in Firefox, for example [15:17] Jason Swain loves firefox [15:17] You: maybe sync with foxmarks :-) [15:17] Squirrel Wood: internet exploder stores them as separate links in an actual folder structure [15:17] You: internet exploder, lol [15:18] Squirrel Wood: both methods work... except the firefox way is going to change in version 3 [15:18] You: I'm less worried about how we store them on the filesystem [15:18] You: than the way we show them in the UI [15:18] You: and the management tools [15:18] You: hi Kerry [15:19] Jacek Antonelli: An inventory-based way to manage bookmarks/whatever would be nice. That way you can take LMs you get from stores, sort them how you want them, and leverage the inventory UI (as it hopefully gets better ^_^) [15:19] Squirrel Wood: in the UI I would suppose something like its currently used in firefox may work out best [15:19] You: would you want a separate list for your picks? or an ability to highlight *any* landmark to appear in picks? [15:19] Squirrel Wood: => bookmark manager [15:19] Jason Swain: It would be nice for a script (attached to an AV) to do an instant TP although thats alittle of topic [15:20] Squirrel Wood: I would prefer only having "active" LMs show up in lists [15:20] Squirrel Wood: or an option to "toggle" show active / show all [15:20] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, the idea of "active" LMs is a very good one [15:21] Jacek Antonelli: Or favorite, or some other term to refer to the same idea [15:21] You: can you explain what you mean by "active" landmark? [15:21] Squirrel Wood: Pretty much the same like we have with gestures at the moment [15:21] Jacek Antonelli: As I'm thinking of it, it would be a sort of toggle, to say "this LM is important to me" [15:21] You: what functionality would that serve? [15:22] Squirrel Wood: the active marked ones can be triggered [15:22] You: triggered by what? [15:22] Squirrel Wood: keyboard shortcuts or chat commands [15:22] Squirrel Wood: but that is for gestures. [15:22] Jacek Antonelli: And then the active LMs could e.g. appear at the top of the list of LMs in the map window, or appear in a menu, or some such thing [15:22] Squirrel Wood: for landmarks "active" ones would be the ones you use on a regular basis. [15:23] Jason Swain: I have to admit I am always using Ctrl + Shift + H, so active LM would be really nice [15:23] You: would you really want just a single designation for that? [15:23] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure "active" is the best word for it. Active makes sense in the context of gestures, because they have the possibility of doing something... LMs not so much [15:23] Squirrel Wood: and like Jacek said, active ones would either show up on top or you would just list the active ones and omit the other existing LMs alltogether in dropdown lists [15:23] You: maybe you could just create folders [15:23] You: where some folders are "Important Landmarks" [15:24] You: or "Maybe I'll need someday" [15:24] Squirrel Wood: a favourite LM folder and anything within that one goes into the dropdown lists [15:24] Jacek Antonelli: Yes. Personally I would prefer a special folder in inventory. Active landmarks would be another good solution, but I'm slightly less enthused about it [15:25] You: where would you see the *full* list of landmarks, so you could go change one to "favorite"? [15:25] Squirrel Wood: inventory [15:25] Rei69 Kamachi: my i join in [15:25] You: I see, Squirrel, so you'd still like to have your landmarks in inventory? [15:25] You: of course Rei69! [15:25] Squirrel Wood: People are used to them being there [15:25] Rei69 Kamachi: ty [15:26] You: I believe it's important to support being able to hand landmarks to each other [15:26] Jacek Antonelli: *nods* [15:26] Squirrel Wood: so in a sense it would be the best thing to leave them there and just add a "special" folder for favorites [15:27] You: or maybe we could show all of them but you would just leave your "favorite" landmarks at the top level? [15:27] You: and put everything else in folders? [15:27] Squirrel Wood: yet another option... [15:27] You: lol [15:27] You: yes, so many options [15:27] Squirrel Wood: mark landmarks as favorites and show them in bold text :) [15:27] Rei69 Kamachi: on what ? [15:28] Squirrel Wood: that would give the same visualization as with active gestures [15:28] You: we're talking about improving the way Landmarks work, Rei69 [15:28] Jacek Antonelli imagines nested folders of LMs, being translated into a multi-level menu along the top bar ala web browser's bookmarks [15:28] Rei69 Kamachi: i have something that may not be your dept. [15:28] You: yes Jacek, that's what I'm suggesting [15:28] Squirrel Wood: Kerry! Stop crashing repeatedly! [15:28] Jacek Antonelli: hehe [15:28] You: then it's interesting to think about how that gets reflected into the picks tab [15:28] Rei69 Kamachi: yes [15:29] Rei69 Kamachi: and the tping to (unknown) [15:29] You: do users click a checkbox on individual landmarks they want in picks? [15:29] Rei69 Kamachi: :)) [15:29] You: or is it a special "Picks" folder [15:29] Kerry Giha: Clearing my cache worked [15:29] Squirrel Wood: right-click "Add to Picks" ? [15:29] You: sorry folks, I don't have my headset on at the moment [15:29] Jacek Antonelli: I think Picks and LMs are not really so closely related. There's some overlap, sure, but they each have their own specialized uses in practice [15:30] You: I'd like to understand those uses better, Jacek [15:30] Squirrel Wood: picks are essentially LMs with an additional description [15:30] Rei69 Kamachi: im cleaning every other day [15:30] Jacek Antonelli: E.g. LMs don't have the ability to set a custom picture or description [15:30] You: one example from last week was the way people use picks as sort of a friends list [15:30] Jacek Antonelli: Yes [15:30] You: however, we could add the ability to tag/comment landmarks [15:30] You: which would blend the functionality [15:31] Rei69 Kamachi: and is nothing different with new grid viewer [15:31] You: and if there's a use case for Picks that is different than what they were designed for (like a public friends list), we could also create another feature to support that (like a real public friends list) [15:32] Squirrel Wood: another checkbox on the firends list "Show in my public profile friend list" ^^ [15:32] Jacek Antonelli: If I had a magic wand, I would wave it and make Picks and LMs more *distinct* from each other. Expand Picks to encompass more than just places, for instance [15:32] You: that's a great example solution Squirrel [15:33] Squirrel Wood: Yep [15:33] Squirrel Wood: the more checkboxes, the better ;) [15:33] Jacek Antonelli: I do think that right click LM > "Add to Picks" would be rather handy [15:33] Jacek Antonelli: and/or drag a LM onto your picks [15:34] Jacek Antonelli: That would be a good short-term improvement that's not so difficult to implement [15:34] Rei69 Kamachi: yes but u r only alwed somany [15:34] You: yes I think we should figure out a way to support more picks [15:35] Rei69 Kamachi: and groups also [15:35] You: currently the UI doesn't have much flexibility for that but we could come up with a better design [15:35] Jason Swain wonders if there could be a script command to open a persons profile via key, if the object was given the correct permissions [15:36] You: not sure about that one, Jason [15:36] Rei69 Kamachi: so ben who is the one to see bot the crashes and tp problems [15:36] Jason Swain: Just thought it would be a nice feature thats all ^^ [15:37] Squirrel Wood: right now the asset server pipes seem to be clogged up again [15:37] Squirrel Wood: pending up/downloads [15:37] You: I just meant I don't know, Jason, not that it's not a good idea :-) [15:38] Rei69 Kamachi: i had problum with invantory to after i loged on [15:38] You: Rei69, which crashes are you having? [15:38] Squirrel Wood: eep.. jason crashed [15:38] You: whoa everyone's poofing! [15:38] Rei69 Kamachi: well still logging in [15:38] You: Jacek too [15:38] Squirrel Wood: ouch [15:38] You: I need to step away for two minutes, brb [15:39] Squirrel Wood: wb [15:39] Rei69 Kamachi: and afer time at one place tping .. in timed uot [15:39] Rei69 Kamachi: out [15:39] Rei69 Kamachi: that is every day [15:40] Rei69 Kamachi: and with i camp at night .. the newt morning im crashed [15:40] Squirrel Wood: wb Jacek :) [15:40] Jacek Antonelli wipes the crash-dust off her pants and sits down [15:40] Jason Swain: Sorry about that Ben I just crashed, Squirrel was kind to send me your comments. Thanks :) [15:40] Rei69 Kamachi: as soon as i get up [15:41] Tegg Bode: Hi All [15:41] Jacek Antonelli: hi Tegg! [15:41] Rei69 Kamachi: hi Tegg [15:42] Rei69 Kamachi: it just seem fix the little glishes [15:43] Squirrel Wood: Ben's afk for a minute or three [15:43] Jacek Antonelli: ah [15:43] Tegg Bode: ah ok [15:44] Jacek Antonelli attempts to coax her hair back onto her head [15:44] Squirrel Wood: worry not ^^ [15:44] Squirrel Wood: It may reappear eventually [15:45] Rei69 Kamachi: so anyone of u think the new viewer is really any better [15:45] Tegg Bode: You tried client> character?rebake, I guess [15:45] You: ok sorry folks [15:45] You: Jacek you lost your hair :-) [15:45] You: oops lost Jason again [15:46] Tegg Bode: Hmm the new WL viewer seem no better or worse to me, but I have an Angelic connection I suspect, as I only have problems when there really are big problems [15:46] You: wow everyone is crashing [15:46] Jason Swain: Did Squirrel crash too? [15:46] You: is there something going on? [15:46] You: yes, and Jacek [15:46] Rei69 Kamachi: me no not yet .. [15:46] You: me either [15:47] You: what kind of crashing is it? [15:47] Rei69 Kamachi: you will hear if i do Benjamin LindenHEHEBenjamin Linden 17:00, 4 April 2008 (PDT) [15:47] Squirrel Wood: Looks like it was my turn to crash ^^ [15:47] Jason Swain: I know one friend had a DNS error and cant log on and Kerry and I both crashed striaght to desktop [15:47] Squirrel Wood: Instant desktop type crash [15:47] Squirrel Wood: no camera movements or anything [15:47] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy there [15:48] You: hmm strange [15:48] You: oh hi McCabe [15:48] Squirrel Wood: and as jason mentioned, pending downloads are down to 0 again [15:48] You: everyone's crashing like crazy [15:48] Rei69 Kamachi: i cashed as i was inline at my house and invantory did not work [15:48] McCabe Maxsted: hehe I logged in at just the right time [15:49] Jacek Antonelli: Some sort of corrupted asset crashing when downloaded? Texture, maybe? [15:49] You: at least your hair is back [15:49] You: Jacek [15:49] Jacek Antonelli: yay, hair! [15:49] NM Wrigglesworth: in my screen a lot of ppl's avatar's haven't rez'd [15:49] Squirrel Wood: the asset stuff sure was freaking out there [15:49] NM Wrigglesworth: oh hi everyone [15:49] You: we were talking some more about Landmark improvements [15:50] You: when the crashing started [15:50] Rei69 Kamachi: i went the web site to see blog ..and a crash notice just poped on screen [15:50] You: one part we didn't explore too much is how people use landmarks to move around SL [15:50] You: or if anyone actually does [15:50] Jacek Antonelli: I do. I used a LM to come here. Before that I used a LM to go to my work platform [15:50] Jason Swain: I think that if there were on quick keys then the LM system would be very useful [15:50] Squirrel Wood: I usually look up the places on the map or I mapstalk my friends [15:51] Rei69 Kamachi: i have a list i can get lost in ^^ [15:51] Jason Swain: *they [15:51] McCabe Maxsted: I use LMs all the time [15:51] Squirrel Wood: I rarely use LMs to tp [15:51] Jacek Antonelli: I go to my work platform so often, I'd put it in my Picks, except I don't want everybody showing up and bothering me, hehe [15:51] Rei69 Kamachi: is manly hope i get to work home and stores [15:51] McCabe Maxsted: my work platform's my home point :) [15:52] Tegg Bode: I do, I have folders divided into clubs, friends places, Roleplay areas, Sandboxes, Nice places, naughty places, etc I share between alts and anyone who needs them I just send them a copy [15:52] You: quick keys for landmarks is a great idea [15:52] Squirrel Wood: quick keys may conflict with gestures though? [15:53] Rei69 Kamachi: like typing a letter ? [15:53] You: yes, of course we'd need to figure out a system that doesn't conflict with all our other keyboard commands [15:53] You: what about the idea of being able to "go back" to where you were before you TP'd? [15:53] Squirrel Wood: YES! [15:53] Jacek Antonelli: I like that idea a lot. Especially for accidental TPs [15:53] Jason Swain: I love that idea Ben [15:53] McCabe Maxsted: that'd be really nice to have; A LOT of my LMs are made when i'm tping out of somewhere and want to return [15:54] Squirrel Wood: "Undo teleport" [15:54] Rei69 Kamachi: than being timed out [15:54] Tegg Bode: The one I find annoying is when you find a place in search you can't save a landmark, you have to got there to do it, so instead of making a shortlist of 10 landmarks to checkout, you have to keep search open and check them one by one [15:54] McCabe Maxsted: like if a renter needs attention and I'll make an lm so I can easily tp back to where i was [15:54] Squirrel Wood: it should, of course, not work when you are being TP'd home [15:54] Squirrel Wood: or banned or kicked / ejected [15:54] Jacek Antonelli: ah, right [15:55] Jacek Antonelli: TPed home you mean involuntarily, right? [15:55] You: related to that could be a list of the last 10 (or whatever) places you've been to [15:55] You: and being able to jump straight back to one of those [15:55] Rei69 Kamachi: im licky on that not any .. yet [15:55] McCabe Maxsted: what about being able to set multiple home spots? I have twor or three spaces I TP very regularly [15:56] You: McCabe, do you think a better landmarks system might meet that need? [15:56] You: particularly if it had quick keys? [15:56] Tegg Bode: yes you do search find your 10 places get to number 10 then decide no2 had what you wanted and unless you LM'd it then you have to search a gain, and LMing every shop you visit is a pain [15:56] McCabe Maxsted: anything that would allow quick tping to a short list; I'm just throwing out an idea, really [15:56] Jason Swain: Yes, the quick keys are really good idea [15:57] You: I only recently started using landmarks myself, because it's sort of a pain to go into inventory to use them [15:57] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe a keyboard command to pop open a little dialog with a list of places, click on one to TP [15:57] Rei69 Kamachi: i've seen only a few not giveing u a LM [15:58] Tegg Bode: I just have a home folder with 10 different LM's for my land and a friends folder for their places, hmm I don't think TP is urgent enough or often enough to need a hotkey, but maybe some do require it [15:58] You: I'm imagining a menu up top somewhere [15:58] McCabe Maxsted: I would say it is, tegg [15:58] You: and maybe a window for managing [15:58] You: (making folders, deleting, etc) [15:58] McCabe Maxsted: tping is essential to any movement in sl [15:58] Jason Swain nods thinking Bens comments sound like a great idea [15:58] Squirrel Wood shouts: Hello Bambers! [15:58] Tegg Bode: Yes especialy since vehicle don't work :) [15:59] McCabe Maxsted: hehe :) [15:59] You: I have an example of this here [15:59] You: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements#Proposed_Solution [15:59] McCabe Maxsted: does anyone use function keys for gestures, really? [15:59] Jacek Antonelli: I do, for sailing [15:59] Squirrel Wood: Yay! Success for my meet-a-new-linden-every-week campaign ^^ [15:59] You: in the upper left of this image [16:00] McCabe Maxsted: oh I saw that benjamin. I have a notepad file typed up for it but I need to trim it down before posting [16:00] Jacek Antonelli: I've got F5-F8 (and also Shift-F5 through F8) to adjust the angle of my sails [16:00] Rei69 Kamachi: and can only go so far [16:00] You: there's a back button, a location bar with a history of recent locations, and a landmarks button for accessing landmarks [16:00] You: I'd love to get your input on it McCabe [16:00] Tegg Bode: Hmm no I don't, but I have my inventory permanently open on the right side of the screen so to open a LM folder > home is pretty easy [16:00] You: ok folks I have to run to another meeting [16:00] Rei69 Kamachi: is not like i can drive my chopper all around sl [16:00] Jason Swain: Will that example include the picture of the place, Ben? [16:01] McCabe Maxsted: okay; take care ben :) [16:01] Squirrel Wood: Personally I am a fan of minimal UIs... just the neccessary things and even those as small as posible [16:01] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, Ben! Will send you that email later [16:01] Jason Swain: Thanks Ben, Take care [16:01] Rei69 Kamachi: tc [16:01] Squirrel Wood: Have fun Ben! [16:01] You: let's continue the conversation next week! [16:01] Tegg Bode: Hmm looks interesting UI [16:01] Squirrel Wood: and remember... [16:01] You: take care all! [16:01] Squirrel Wood: The Cake Is a PIE! [16:01] Rei69 Kamachi: k [16:01] Jacek Antonelli: lol squirrel [16:01] Tegg Bode: Bye :)