User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-01-24

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hiya Ben!
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	hi folks!
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	so sorry for being late
[15:11]	Jason Swain:	Hello Benjamin ^^
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello Benjamin :)
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	how is everyone?
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good :)
[15:11]	Jason Swain:	Great thanks ^^
[15:12]	Squirrel Wood:	Doing fine here :)
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm in San Francisco this week, so running around like crazy meeting with folks
[15:12]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ben: I've got a little something to tell/ask you, I'll shoot you an IM, okay?
[15:12]	Jason Swain:	That sounds fun and exusting
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	sure sounds fine, Jacek
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I always have fun down here
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	but it's very busy!
[15:13]	Jason Swain:	Glad to see they are keeping you busy ;)
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	busy... the opposite of what I am at work ^^
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	that explains how you can be such a loyal attendee, Squirrel :-)
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	I can't get onto Sl from work at all
[15:14]	Jason Swain:	hehe its 12:13 AM for squirrel
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	I really enjoyed our conversation last week about landmarks
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	besides, it is past midnight here ^^
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, that was a great discussion last week
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	Indeed!
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm going to pull up my chat logs and see where we left off and see if there are any points to delve deeper on
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	One point was on how to best organize them
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	and I think I suggested adding a flag to them to set them "active" like gestures
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nods* And we were also talking about how LMs and Picks relate to each other, and a possible idea for "Favorites"
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I remember that point
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	do you have opinions about how web browsers handle bookmarks?
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	things you really like or dislike that we can take into account?
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm..
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	firefox stores them all in an xml file
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	we could do something as basic as the bookmark management in Firefox, for example
[15:17]	Jason Swain loves firefox
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe sync with foxmarks :-)
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	internet exploder stores them as separate links in an actual folder structure
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	internet exploder, lol
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	both methods work... except the firefox way is going to change in version 3
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm less worried about how we store them on the filesystem
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	than the way we show them in the UI
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	and the management tools
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Kerry
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	An inventory-based way to manage bookmarks/whatever would be nice. That way you can take LMs you get from stores, sort them how you want them, and leverage the inventory UI (as it hopefully gets better ^_^)
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	in the UI I would suppose something like its currently used in firefox may work out best
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	would you want a separate list for your picks? or an ability to highlight *any* landmark to appear in picks?
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	=> bookmark manager
[15:19]	Jason Swain:	It would be nice for a script (attached to an AV) to do an instant TP although thats alittle of topic
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	I would prefer only having "active" LMs show up in lists
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	or an option to "toggle" show active / show all
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, the idea of "active" LMs is a very good one
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or favorite, or some other term to refer to the same idea
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	can you explain what you mean by "active" landmark?
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	Pretty much the same like we have with gestures at the moment
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	As I'm thinking of it, it would be a sort of toggle, to say "this LM is important to me"
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	what functionality would that serve?
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	the active marked ones can be triggered
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	triggered by what?
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	keyboard shortcuts or chat commands
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	but that is for gestures.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	And then the active LMs could e.g. appear at the top of the list of LMs in the map window, or appear in a menu, or some such thing
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	for landmarks "active" ones would be the ones you use on a regular basis.
[15:23]	Jason Swain:	I have to admit I am always using Ctrl + Shift + H, so active LM would be really nice
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	would you really want just a single designation for that?
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm not sure "active" is the best word for it. Active makes sense in the context of gestures, because they have the possibility of doing something... LMs not so much
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	and like Jacek said, active ones would either show up on top or you would just list the active ones and omit the other existing LMs alltogether in dropdown lists
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe you could just create folders
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	where some folders are "Important Landmarks"
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	or "Maybe I'll need someday"
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	a favourite LM folder and anything within that one goes into the dropdown lists
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes. Personally I would prefer a special folder in inventory. Active landmarks would be another good solution, but I'm slightly less enthused about it
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	where would you see the *full* list of landmarks, so you could go change one to "favorite"?
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	inventory
[15:25]	Rei69 Kamachi:	my i join in
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	I see, Squirrel, so you'd still like to have your landmarks in inventory?
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	of course Rei69!
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	People are used to them being there
[15:25]	Rei69 Kamachi:	ty
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe it's important to support being able to hand landmarks to each other
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nods*
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	so in a sense it would be the best thing to leave them there and just add a "special" folder for favorites
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	or maybe we could show all of them but you would just leave your "favorite" landmarks at the top level?
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	and put everything else in folders?
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	yet another option...
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, so many options
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	mark landmarks as favorites and show them in bold text :)
[15:27]	Rei69 Kamachi:	on what ?
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	that would give the same visualization as with active gestures
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	we're talking about improving the way Landmarks work, Rei69
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli imagines nested folders of LMs, being translated into a multi-level menu along the top bar ala web browser's bookmarks
[15:28]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i have something that may not be your dept.
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Jacek, that's what I'm suggesting
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	Kerry! Stop crashing repeatedly!
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	then it's interesting to think about how that gets reflected into the picks tab
[15:28]	Rei69 Kamachi:	yes
[15:29]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and the tping to (unknown)
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	do users click a checkbox on individual landmarks they want in picks?
[15:29]	Rei69 Kamachi:	:))
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	or is it a special "Picks" folder
[15:29]	Kerry Giha:	Clearing my cache worked
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	right-click "Add to Picks" ?
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry folks, I don't have my headset on at the moment
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think Picks and LMs are not really so closely related. There's some overlap, sure, but they each have their own specialized uses in practice
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd like to understand those uses better, Jacek
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	picks are essentially LMs with an additional description
[15:30]	Rei69 Kamachi:	im cleaning every other day
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	E.g. LMs don't have the ability to set a custom picture or description
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	one example from last week was the way people use picks as sort of a friends list
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	however, we could add the ability to tag/comment landmarks
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	which would blend the functionality
[15:31]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and is nothing different with new grid viewer
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	and if there's a use case for Picks that is different than what they were designed for (like a public friends list), we could also create another feature to support that (like a real public friends list)
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	another checkbox on the firends list "Show in my public profile friend list" ^^
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	If I had a magic wand, I would wave it and make Picks and LMs more *distinct* from each other. Expand Picks to encompass more than just places, for instance
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	that's a great example solution Squirrel
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	Yep
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	the more checkboxes, the better ;)
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	I do think that right click LM > "Add to Picks" would be rather handy
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	and/or drag a LM onto your picks
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be a good short-term improvement that's not so difficult to implement
[15:34]	Rei69 Kamachi:	yes but u r only alwed somany
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I think we should figure out a way to support more picks
[15:35]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and groups also
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	currently the UI doesn't have much flexibility for that but we could come up with a better design
[15:35]	Jason Swain wonders if there could be a script command to open a persons profile via key, if the object was given the correct permissions
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	not sure about that one, Jason
[15:36]	Rei69 Kamachi:	so ben who is the one to see bot the crashes and tp problems
[15:36]	Jason Swain:	Just thought it would be a nice feature thats all ^^
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood:	right now the asset server pipes seem to be clogged up again
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood:	pending up/downloads
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I just meant I don't know, Jason, not that it's not a good idea :-)
[15:38]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i had problum with invantory to after i loged on
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	Rei69, which crashes are you having?
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	eep.. jason crashed
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	whoa everyone's poofing!
[15:38]	Rei69 Kamachi:	well still logging in
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek too
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	ouch
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I need to step away for two minutes, brb
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood:	wb
[15:39]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and afer time at one place tping .. in timed uot
[15:39]	Rei69 Kamachi:	out
[15:39]	Rei69 Kamachi:	that is every day
[15:40]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and with i camp at night .. the newt morning im crashed
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	wb Jacek :)
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli wipes the crash-dust off her pants and sits down
[15:40]	Jason Swain:	Sorry about that Ben I just crashed, Squirrel was kind to send me your comments. Thanks :)
[15:40]	Rei69 Kamachi:	as soon as i get up
[15:41]	Tegg Bode:	Hi All
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	hi Tegg!
[15:41]	Rei69 Kamachi:	hi Tegg
[15:42]	Rei69 Kamachi:	it just seem fix the little glishes
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	Ben's afk for a minute or three
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	ah
[15:43]	Tegg Bode:	ah ok
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli attempts to coax her hair back onto her head
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	worry not ^^
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	It may reappear eventually
[15:45]	Rei69 Kamachi:	so anyone of u think the new viewer is really any better
[15:45]	Tegg Bode:	You tried client> character?rebake, I guess
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	ok sorry folks
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek you lost your hair :-)
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	oops lost Jason again
[15:46]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm the new WL viewer seem no better or worse to me, but I have an Angelic connection I suspect, as I only have problems when there really are big problems
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	wow everyone is crashing
[15:46]	Jason Swain:	Did Squirrel crash too?
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	is there something going on?
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, and Jacek
[15:46]	Rei69 Kamachi:	me no not yet ..
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	me either
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	what kind of crashing is it?
[15:47]	Rei69 Kamachi:	you will hear if i do Benjamin LindenHEHEBenjamin Linden 17:02, 4 April 2008 (PDT)
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	Looks like it was my turn to crash ^^
[15:47]	Jason Swain:	I know one friend had a DNS error and cant log on and Kerry and I both crashed striaght to desktop
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	Instant desktop type crash
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	no camera movements or anything
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy there
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm strange
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	oh hi McCabe
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood:	and as jason mentioned, pending downloads are down to 0 again
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	everyone's crashing like crazy
[15:48]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i cashed as i was inline at my house and invantory did not work
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe I logged in at just the right time
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Some sort of corrupted asset crashing when downloaded? Texture, maybe?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	at least your hair is back
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	yay, hair!
[15:49]	NM Wrigglesworth:	in my screen a lot of ppl's avatar's haven't rez'd
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood:	the asset stuff sure was freaking out there
[15:49]	NM Wrigglesworth:	oh hi everyone
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	we were talking some more about Landmark improvements
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	when the crashing started
[15:50]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i went the web site to see blog ..and a crash notice just poped on screen
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	one part we didn't explore too much is how people use landmarks to move around SL
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	or if anyone actually does
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	I do. I used a LM to come here. Before that I used a LM to go to my work platform
[15:50]	Jason Swain:	I think that if there were on quick keys then the LM system would be very useful
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood:	I usually look up the places on the map or I mapstalk my friends
[15:51]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i have a list i can get lost in ^^
[15:51]	Jason Swain:	*they
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	I use LMs all the time
[15:51]	Squirrel Wood:	I rarely use LMs to tp
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	I go to my work platform so often, I'd put it in my Picks, except I don't want everybody showing up and bothering me, hehe
[15:51]	Rei69 Kamachi:	is manly hope i get to work home and stores
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	my work platform's my home point :)
[15:52]	Tegg Bode:	I do, I have folders divided into clubs, friends places, Roleplay areas, Sandboxes, Nice places, naughty places, etc I share between alts and anyone who needs them I just send them a copy
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	quick keys for landmarks is a great idea
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	quick keys may conflict with gestures though?
[15:53]	Rei69 Kamachi:	like typing a letter ?
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, of course we'd need to figure out a system that doesn't conflict with all our other keyboard commands
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	what about the idea of being able to "go back" to where you were before you TP'd?
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	YES!
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	I like that idea a lot. Especially for accidental TPs
[15:53]	Jason Swain:	I love that idea Ben
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	that'd be really nice to have; A LOT of my LMs are made when i'm tping out of somewhere and want to return
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	"Undo teleport"
[15:54]	Rei69 Kamachi:	than being timed out
[15:54]	Tegg Bode:	The one I find annoying is when you find a place in search you can't save a landmark, you have to got there to do it, so instead of making a shortlist of 10 landmarks to checkout, you have to keep search open and check them one by one
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	like if a renter needs attention and I'll make an lm so I can easily tp back to where i was
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	it should, of course, not work when you are being TP'd home
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	or banned or kicked / ejected
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	ah, right
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	TPed home you mean involuntarily, right?
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	related to that could be a list of the last 10 (or whatever) places you've been to
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	and being able to jump straight back to one of those
[15:55]	Rei69 Kamachi:	im licky on that not any .. yet
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	what about being able to set multiple home spots? I have twor or three spaces I TP very regularly
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe, do you think a better landmarks system might meet that need?
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	particularly if it had quick keys?
[15:56]	Tegg Bode:	yes you do search find your 10 places get to number 10 then decide no2 had what you wanted and unless you LM'd it then you have to search a gain, and LMing every shop you visit is a pain
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	anything that would allow quick tping to a short list; I'm just throwing out an idea, really
[15:56]	Jason Swain:	Yes, the quick keys are really good idea
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	I only recently started using landmarks myself, because it's sort of a pain to go into inventory to use them
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe a keyboard command to pop open a little dialog with a list of places, click on one to TP
[15:57]	Rei69 Kamachi:	i've seen only a few not giveing u a LM
[15:58]	Tegg Bode:	I just have a home folder with 10 different LM's for my land and a friends folder for their places, hmm I don't think TP is urgent enough or often enough to need a hotkey, but maybe some do require it
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm imagining a menu up top somewhere
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	I would say it is, tegg
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	and maybe a window for managing
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	(making folders, deleting, etc)
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	tping is essential to any movement in sl
[15:58]	Jason Swain nods thinking Bens comments sound like a great idea
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood shouts: Hello Bambers!
[15:58]	Tegg Bode:	Yes especialy since vehicle don't work :)
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe :)
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	I have an example of this here
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements#Proposed_Solution
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	does anyone use function keys for gestures, really?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	I do, for sailing
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Yay! Success for my meet-a-new-linden-every-week campaign ^^
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	in the upper left of this image
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh I saw that benjamin. I have a notepad file typed up for it but I need to trim it down before posting
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	I've got F5-F8 (and also Shift-F5 through F8) to adjust the angle of my sails
[16:00]	Rei69 Kamachi:	and can only go so far
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a back button, a location bar with a history of recent locations, and a landmarks button for accessing landmarks
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd love to get your input on it McCabe
[16:00]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm no I don't, but I have my inventory permanently open on the right side of the screen so to open a LM folder > home is pretty easy
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I have to run to another meeting
[16:00]	Rei69 Kamachi:	is not like i can drive my chopper all around sl
[16:00]	Jason Swain:	Will that example include the picture of the place, Ben?
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	okay; take care ben :)
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Personally I am a fan of minimal UIs... just the neccessary things and even those as small as posible
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, Ben! Will send you that email later
[16:01]	Jason Swain:	Thanks Ben, Take care
[16:01]	Rei69 Kamachi:	tc
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Have fun Ben!
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	let's continue the conversation next week!
[16:01]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm looks interesting UI
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	and remember...
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	take care all!
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	The Cake Is a PIE!
[16:01]	Rei69 Kamachi:	k
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol squirrel
[16:01]	Tegg Bode:	Bye :)