AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17

[9:32] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:32] Umeko Kawanishi: Hello Rex
[9:33] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:33] Tao Takashi: Hi Rex
[9:33] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:33] Tao Takashi: Hi Periapse!
[9:33] Rex Cronon: is there going to be a meeting today?
[9:33] Tao Takashi: Hi Enus
[9:34] Enus Linden: he tao
[9:34] Enus Linden: hi*
[9:34] Periapse Linden: hi, Tao, and all
[9:34] Enus Linden: hey*
[9:34] Enus Linden: one of those
[9:34] Tao Takashi: looks like a meeting ;-)
[9:34] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:34] Zha Ewry: Hey all
[9:34] Tao Takashi: Hi Zha
[9:34] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:34] Umeko Kawanishi: Hi zha
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey ENus, Hey Peri, hey all
[9:35] Enus Linden: hi sai
[9:35] Umeko Kawanishi: hi sai
[9:35] paulie Femto: Howdeh, yall.
[9:36] Rex Cronon: hi
[9:36] Teravus Ousley: waves
[9:36] Zha Ewry: So.. In theory.. I'm expecting some discussion about regionHandles
[9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: whatever THOSE are...
[9:36] Zha Ewry: They are the 64 bit ints which are used to identify regions in all sorts of low level places
[9:37] Tao Takashi: I definitely would like to talk about pyogp as I see many pyogps right now ;-)
[9:37] Teravus Ousley: RegionHandle.. Unsigned 64bit number representing X and Y cordinates of a Region
[9:37] Tao Takashi: but maybe Enus, Sai and me can sort this out
[9:37] Enus Linden: yes tao, we oughta chat about that pyogp whatnot
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Which bakes in the 256x256 checkerboard in funny ways
[9:37] Tao Takashi: is there some wiki page about regionhandles?
[9:38] Zha Ewry: Tervaus?
[9:38] Tao Takashi: Enus, Sai: What about a meeting tomorrow? I am a bit busy right now so I probably cannot concentrate on this meeting that much
[9:38] Zha Ewry: As far as I can tell, unless I've missed something (which I may have) in GridMode, the regionaHandle doesn't follow the xloc/yloc rule at all
[9:38] Teravus Ousley: not sure.. but give me a moment an I can produce some psudo
[9:39] Zha Ewry: (on OpenSim)
[9:39] Enus Linden: sounds good to me tao.
[9:39] Tao Takashi: well, if there is no wiki page then it would be cool to create one which describes what is said here e.g. today
[9:39] Tao Takashi: and what you found out so far regarding it's limits etc.
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, is that the x/y coordinates stored directly in 64 bits?
[9:40] Zha Ewry: What gets.. well, to be polite, messy
[9:40] Teravus Ousley: regionHandle = ((ulong)(uint)a << 32) | (ulong)(uint)b;
[9:40] Zha Ewry: is that the Client assumes it can figure out if two region handles are adjacent based on that
[9:40] Teravus Ousley: the (uint) is there just to let you know what type it is.
[9:40] Tao Takashi: so the x/y loc goes in 256 steps?
[9:41] Zha Ewry: No
[9:41] Zha Ewry: The X/Y is on the "big map" grid
[9:41] Tao Takashi: ah, ok. I was assuming that because you mentioned the 256x256 grid
[9:41] Teravus Ousley: right, the XY on the world map.. essentially
[9:41] Teravus Ousley: .. for the center of the region atm
[9:41] Zha Ewry: Right
[9:41] Zha Ewry: strictly speaking
[9:41] Zha Ewry: It doesn't actually bake in the regions size
[9:41] Zha Ewry: it bakes in the fact tha they all are the same
[9:42] Zha Ewry: so you can always assume a region has exactly one neightbor in each direction
[9:42] Tao Takashi: ah, ok
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: well, the code surrounding it does.. but the value itself doen't
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Well, sure
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: nods
[9:42] Zha Ewry: But if there is a baked assupmtion that you can go from Xloc=123,yloc=109
[9:42] Zha Ewry: to a iven handle
[9:43] Tao Takashi: btw, how far are the plans of releasing your code (or even a downloadable version)?
[9:43] Zha Ewry: and lots of code depends on it
[9:43] Zha Ewry: then you're prety deep in
[9:43] Zha Ewry: (ie you've baked the dependency pretty deep)
[9:43] Zha Ewry: I am hoping to get a little clairty on the handle stuff
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: well, in OpenSimulator, each region has an X and Y cordinate.. that gets dynamically stuck into the regionhandle format.
[9:43] Zha Ewry: and then offer out a patch to the Mansit
[9:43] Zha Ewry: *Mantis
[9:44] Zha Ewry: for discussion
[9:44] Zha Ewry: (and slightly odder, Teravus, it seems to include the IP info in grid mode)
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Althought I havent' dug through all that code in detail
[9:44] Teravus Ousley: well, it also has that, so the grid server can tell the client which server to connect to via UDP
[9:45] Teravus Ousley: .. the grid server and other servers also depend on the HTTP Server for various things
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Sure
[9:45] Zha Ewry: What's not clear to me at all (and I've code to dig through to hepl with that)
[9:45] Teravus Ousley: [1]
[9:45] Zha Ewry: is whether the IP salted region handles get actually put on the wire
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: well, they do, when telling the client where to connect.
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: you have to tell the client to send the UseCircuitCode packet somewhere.
[9:46] Zha Ewry: right
[9:46] Zha Ewry: where this all got wierd
[9:46] Tao Takashi: at some point in time we really should do a sprint on that :)
[9:47] Zha Ewry: is when we started playing with Linden's rez_avatar code
[9:47] Zha Ewry: because they take the x./y (from the rez_avatar call) and use that in theclient to build the regio handle
[9:47] Teravus Ousley: well right. it doesn't have a regionhandle, just a region UUID, from my understanding.
[9:47] Zha Ewry: which totally broke
[9:48] Zha Ewry: and, I'm not at all sure
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: ahh.
[9:48] Zha Ewry: whether this is a case where
[9:48] Zha Ewry: OpenSim has been faking out the client
[9:48] Zha Ewry: and it's never matteredf before
[9:48] Zha Ewry: or.. if it's deeper
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: well, as I said before, the code expects a regionhandle to be the 32bit unsigned ints stuck together.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: (And in any case, it's a bad, bad scheme, because if we want to do things like denser regions, or non checkerboard ones, we're DOA)
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: .. i've also tested that theory with autopilot and gone the other way from the client.. and get the expected results.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Hmmm
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: the client provides a world cordinate position with autopilot
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: .. so you have to cut it back to xy
[9:50] Zha Ewry: There's a ton of slight of hand in the OpenSim code about whether you rerturn value scaled by 256 or not
[9:50] Zha Ewry: And. autoplot/dead reckonign, is going to be a total nightmarfe, if we ever allow less uniform topologies
[9:50] Teravus Ousley: I can't comment on that since no direct references were mentioned.
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Not expecting you to, Teravus, just, it's a messy, poorly described part of the protrocol
[9:51] Zha Ewry: and. I'm tryign to sort out whether the grid mode code isgoing to totally die with the current linden rez-avatar proposal
[9:52] Zha Ewry: I want to get Linden away from baking stuff like the checkerboard into the protocol anyway
[9:52] Zha Ewry: I know it's not a "fix this month" sort of issue
[9:52] Zha Ewry: but it will just about certainly bite us all hard on the backside sooner ot later
[9:53] Teravus Ousley: well, ultimately, the regionhandle is required for the client. It isn't really required for OpenSimulator to function... we simply swap out calls for regionhandle to calls for UUID
[9:53] Zha Ewry: right
[9:53] Zha Ewry: What sort of is messy
[9:53] Zha Ewry: is that at the sim and prptocl level, it's totally opaque
[9:53] Zha Ewry: but at the client level
[9:53] Teravus Ousley: There's already a set of grid functions that do that really. They are not cached like the region handle methods though.
[9:53] Zha Ewry: there are a ton of assupmtions about adjacent handles
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Mornign Tess
[9:55] Tess Linden: hey Zha! I just got into the Davis office :)
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Davis?
[9:56] Tess Linden: a bunch of us in Mountain View took a road trip to Davis to visit the other office
[9:56] Tess Linden: Are you guys looking at the protocol?
[9:56] Rex Cronon: hello tess
[9:56] Zha Ewry: I am quietely ranting about region handles
[9:56] Tess Linden: Hey Rex
[9:57] Teravus Ousley: RegionInfo GridService.RequestNeighbourInfo(LLUUID Region_UUID)
[9:57] Tess Linden: Hey Teravus
[9:57] Teravus Ousley: Hey :D
[9:57] Tess Linden: what do you think about region handles?
[9:58] Teravus Ousley: I think they're easy.. and inflexible
[9:58] Teravus Ousley: :D
[9:58] Tess Linden: peri just pasted me logs... you guys keep talking, im catching up
[9:59] Zha Ewry: I can probably untangle the places where we pass things around in OpenSSim, to make a clean patch without breaking any of the assumptions currently in place
[9:59] Zha Ewry: (Tho, grid mode is making me read a lot of code to understand how it is doing things) but..
[9:59] Teravus Ousley: k. I'm not sure the whole 'grid slot' analogy is going to survive the interop the way it is now.
[9:59] Zha Ewry: long term, I'd like to avoid the couplling
[10:00] Teravus Ousley: Yes, working on the grid code is one of the most challenging parts of opensimulator
[10:00] Tess Linden: teravus: whats a grid slot? search through logs dont mention it
[10:00] Zha Ewry: It does sort of asume that there is a global grid in whhich every sim has a home
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: I seem to recall Zero's original idea was to preserve the 32bitx32bit X/y coordinate to allow 64bitx64bit universal grid coordinates for any spot anywhere on the grid
[10:01] Teravus Ousley: each grid slot is 256mx256m, and, from a region handle we can know where to send a user.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: There are also assumptions, such as "if I see this handle, and the one next to it is one up, it is adjacent" which will bork badly, if we end up with non unqiue handles
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: so its majorX.minorX by majorY.minorY universal fixed coordinates
[10:02] Zha Ewry: We never see that today, as we don't do interop between seperately managed domains
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: well, the addressing space works for a single organization.. but without serious planning and moving regions, etc. , it doesn't support multiple organizations.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: right
[10:02] Zha Ewry: and.. imagine, ifyou will
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: so a prim can exist at 3545.643 x 5465.5635
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: .. especially ones who have started.. and already have conflicting grid spaces.
[10:03] Zha Ewry: the fun of trying to re-do maps when you have sub-grids get too big
[10:04] Tess Linden: Peri made a good point last week after the AWG meeting when I brought up the possibility of multiple maps aligning regions together
[10:04] Zha Ewry: That would require the client to be careful about when to discad some state
[10:04] Tess Linden: He said he just couldn't see a really impelling use case for having that
[10:05] Dahlia Trimble: you mean when different grids have regions at the same locations?
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero wants trusted regions to have the ability for walking between them though
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: well, I can see a compelling reason.. so long as it's consistant.
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: so you need some way of aligning maps
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: .. ie, you only essentially get 4 grid connections.. per grid.
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: .. and the crossing represents a line on one cordinate
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Unless you want to imagine having to manage one global map, and allocate regions of it to everyone who wants a grid
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: ex: anything past 14,000 Y = grid 2
[10:06] Zha Ewry: and cope with the fact that people will run out of room
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Otherwise, you really want to make them opaque
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Sounds like another usecase for border sims
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: well, that, I suppose would be a special class of sim that re-seeds the new map when you cross
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: .. I've been playing with the map recently
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: ... and it seems to be okay with reseeding.
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: yo could have a checkerboard of contiguous border sims that hpapen to be tardis-like: they are larger internally than externally
[10:08] Tao Takashi: but do we really need adjactent region domains?
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Its a common usecase Tao
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero likes it as a visual cue for trustability
[10:08] Zha Ewry: People want to be able to setup edge touches between organziations
[10:09] Tao Takashi: well, maybe they then can share the same map server
[10:09] Tao Takashi: if there is such a thing
[10:09] Tao Takashi: or "will be"
[10:09] Dahlia Trimble: another case for 4D ;)
[10:10] Bartholomew Kleiber: or N-D
[10:10] Tao Takashi: N is float
[10:10] Teravus Ousley: I'm not sure how landmark assets work .. but they'll need to be resiliant enough to handle additional addressing space.
[10:10] Tao Takashi: well, landmarks can be linked to some map server
[10:10] Zha Ewry: They could be tao
[10:10] Zha Ewry: but at the moment, they aren't.
[10:10] Tao Takashi: and then region domains are linked to map servers as well
[10:11] Zha Ewry: One of the many singleton assupmtoins in the current code base
[10:11] Tao Takashi: right
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: well, essentially, they are Tao.
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: they are linked via configuration to a Grid server.. which is sort of like the Linden Space server.
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: .. and by configuration to an asset server.
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Somewhat implicitly, at the moment, Teravus
[10:12] Teravus Ousley: .. however, I'm sure you wouldn't want to double click on a landmark and have it say 'asset not found'
[10:12] Zha Ewry: but. we probably need to make the explicit
[10:12] Zha Ewry: *that
[10:12] Tess Linden: I'm not too worried about teleporting, because the API should handle the handoff between the two regions in the region domain according to the protocol
[10:12] Tess Linden: in different region domains I mean
[10:12] Teravus Ousley: it's hardly implicit.. it's part of the configuration options that you set up when you connect a region to a grid.
[10:12] Tess Linden: landmarks would have to work the same way
[10:12] Zha Ewry: But the client, and the rest of the world don't know that yet
[10:13] Tess Linden: the problem is when you have neighboring regions
[10:13] Zha Ewry: its very explicit when runnign stuff
[10:13] Zha Ewry: and vey implciit to the rest of ther world as yet
[10:13] Tess Linden: in OpenSim, if you have a neighboring region, can you see into the other region? how does that work?
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Child agents, just like on Linden servers
[10:14] Teravus Ousley: In OpenSimulator currently, the user's position cordinates and draw distance is sent over to regions.
[10:14] Zha Ewry: You find out about the adjacent regions,a nd set them up
[10:14] Teravus Ousley: .. that they are a child agent in...
[10:15] Tao Takashi: which makes me thinking that at some point when somebody works on regions which do not need that because they are simply as big as the continent this also needs to be possible and mixable with the rest of the grid
[10:15] Dahlia Trimble: I can see into adjacent and diagonal regions on osgrid
[10:15] Tao Takashi: so different sizes need to be supported
[10:15] Teravus Ousley: right, prim and terrain..
[10:16] Teravus Ousley: another thing that gets sent over is a factor of the client's 'throttle'
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: we were discussing that. They need to be integer multiples. You can't have 3.5:1 ratios between grids
[10:16] Teravus Ousley: .. so that the neighbor regions don't innundate the client with prim that get lost.
[10:16] Zha Ewry: well, as soon as you posit anything but a uniform chekcerboard,
[10:17] Zha Ewry: the current scheme is broken
[10:17] Teravus Ousley: right, beyond emulation,
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Which would get very odd, very fast, it hink
[10:17] Teravus Ousley: Dahlia and Andrew Linden had an idea..
[10:18] Zha Ewry: listens carefully
[10:18] Teravus Ousley: .. that all the content in a simulator would be shrunk universally.. and the client would render the avatar 'smaller'.
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: move a few decimal points over ;)
[10:19] Tao Takashi: well, you maybe also have to define the size of a region
[10:19] Tao Takashi: which then can only be a round number
[10:19] Rex Cronon: aren't there some problems when shrinking things?
[10:19] Tao Takashi: so you can say something is 4x4 grid slots big
[10:19] Tao Takashi: of course this still means that one grid slot is 256x256
[10:20] Tao Takashi: if we keep the current measures
[10:20] Dahlia Trimble: there seems to be a lot of prim size attributes that arent floating point
[10:22] Tess Linden: lets try to make the protocol as extensible as possible
[10:22] Tess Linden: is there any way to accomodate for all these use cases?
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: one use case I came up with for mutliple grid sizes was a musem grid. You might want different exhibit halls too each fit in their own simulator
[10:23] Rex Cronon: that can apply to any building that has more than one room
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: so it might even be a single grid that accomdiates multiple sizes
[10:24] Tao Takashi: you can also say, a grid slot is 1x1 and then existing regions will have coords in 256 steps
[10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but I was in a SL musemu when I came up with it
[10:24] Dahlia Trimble: I met someone who was building a scale representation of the city of berkeley in 30 opensim regions
[10:24] Teravus Ousley: well, yes.. I was thinking in terms of the unit 'region' as opposed to a grid specification
[10:24] Zha Ewry: I think there are two things we are trying to preserver
[10:24] Tess Linden: lets go with a strawman first
[10:24] Tao Takashi: then it's up to the map server admin to make sense if his map ;-)
[10:24] Zha Ewry: one is the ability to have a more varied model
[10:24] Zha Ewry: the other, is the ability to get out of the checkerboard entirely
[10:25] Tao Takashi: (but ai also would add a z coord)
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: plays the black checkers.. Zha plays the white ones.
[10:25] Tao Takashi: ok, do we keep rectangular regions?
[10:25] Tess Linden: zha: how would that look as an API?
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: well, square.. currently
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: all regions are rectangles for some granularity of rectangle...
[10:26] Tao Takashi: yes, currently, but I am wondering if we also want e.g. round regions in the future
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: well, how would you overlap a circle region with another one?
[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: and border sims are your friend
[10:26] Tao Takashi: how would a region domain look like which wants to represent a planet?
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: .. becomes the same problem as round elements in HTML next to square ones.
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: sim-packing rpoblem
[10:27] Tao Takashi: Tera: my some region with a hole in it ;-)
[10:27] Tao Takashi: by
[10:27] Rex Cronon: what if sims were triangular?
[10:27] Tao Takashi: sorry for my lag induced typos
[10:27] Tao Takashi: or what if they are on a sphere?
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: still goes back to border sims, IMHO
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: well, you could tessellate.. triangular sims.. but, I digress..
[10:27] Tao Takashi: they wouldn't be rect anymore
[10:28] Tao Takashi: but then again I wonder if people wouldn't build the whole planet as on region
[10:28] Rex Cronon: u see, with triangles u can make a squre, u can also make a circle, and any other shape
[10:28] Zha Ewry: /well
[10:28] Bartholomew Kleiber: with triangular sims you could build all shapes including planets.
[10:28] Tao Takashi: as it's a fixed thing then anyway
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: feels like he's back in math class in 7th grade playing with tangrams
[10:28] Zha Ewry: API wise
[10:28] Tess Linden: Teravus: as long as the client knows how to get to your region, then you can make the simulation however you want
[10:28] Zha Ewry: There are two issues
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Knowing who's adjacent (and how they touch)
[10:29] Tess Linden: right now when we're talking about region handles, we want to know how does a client get to a region and what happens with neighboring regions
[10:29] Zha Ewry: and how do we learn abou the current scheme in use
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: admires his sim border idea: when every sim is a border sim, all topgraphies look like special case borders
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: the cross into new region code is all handled on the simulator..
[10:30] Zha Ewry: As soon as you seperate out the handles ( make the opaque) and add some scheme to determine who's adjacent to you
[10:30] Zha Ewry: then, it's a matter of definign that
[10:30] Tess Linden: the client needs to know the relationships between regions
[10:31] Zha Ewry: right
[10:31] Zha Ewry: it has to have a cap, or somethign which says 'Hey, what's near me"
[10:31] Tess Linden: zha: true
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Seperating that out
[10:31] Zha Ewry: is all kinds of nice
[10:31] Teravus Ousley: well, it 'could' be twisted to support multiple shapes assuming that there are no more then 4 in each direction..
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Including allowing newer clients to ask morre sophistiacted questions
[10:31] Teravus Ousley: err 4 directions
[10:32] Butch Arnold: At the very least a way of "LIMITING" by rating which sim is allowed to border which sim...
[10:32] Butch Arnold: u don't want school kids next to strip joints
[10:32] Teravus Ousley: .... however.. once again... that doesn't really lend it self to anything beyond 2D cordinates.. and a 'grid'
[10:32] Teravus Ousley: .... hehe, another idea that I've heard.. is 3D cordinates..
[10:33] Teravus Ousley: .. and the ability to make 'holes'
[10:33] Tess Linden: just catching up on logs, whats autopilot/dead reckoning?
[10:33] Zha Ewry: You could imagine getting back from the sim, a list of "edge regions"
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to border sim: for truely pathological grid cinompatiblieies, you just apply a border of sims with compatiblity to the two regions. Might require 2 or more layers i exstreme cases
[10:33] Teravus Ousley: autopilot is the client requesting to go to a specific location via GenericMessage Packet with a method, 'autopilot'
[10:33] Zha Ewry: "from 0,1 to 0,15 I touch sim187, from 0,15 to 0,128, I touch Sim198"
[10:34] Dahlia Trimble: I think autopilot is when you right click an avatar and select "goto"
[10:34] Butch Arnold: a 3d grid would be very nice..
[10:34] Zha Ewry: so, then
[10:34] Zha Ewry: You define a plane
[10:34] Zha Ewry: of the edge
[10:34] Teravus Ousley: .. the client sends the location it wants to go in world cordinates... like a RegionHandle ... plus the offset.
[10:34] Zha Ewry: (from x,y,z, to x1,y1,z1, I touch Region1897)
[10:35] Zha Ewry: The killer is that the client now has to do a *lot* more work
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: well, the sim has to do a lot more work also. Terrain patches.. don't mean the same thing..
[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: dead reckoning may be the motion the client assumes physical objects move between updates from the sim
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: .. which, is in essance, layer data.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: And the client, assume the aves too
[10:36] Zha Ewry: how you walk through walls
[10:36] Dahlia Trimble: or walk underround on slow region border crossings ;)
[10:36] Tess Linden: I wish we could talk in outline form so we capture all the points here
[10:36] Tao Takashi: I think for now maybe we should leave non-rect regions out of the protocol. 3d IMHO would be good to support it
[10:37] Zha Ewry: I think we can design somethign that is extensible and do the current case, with simple extentions first
[10:37] Tess Linden: zha: can you propose a strawman protocol that might make sense and we can bang on it?
[10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: still wants to know why no-one uses web-on-a-prim for inworld discussions
[10:37] Tao Takashi: supporting non.rect regions also means a lot of changes to the client and if you want to do a planet you probably also want to create your own custom client for it
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Are you looking for a cap, which would describe adjecnecy?
[10:38] Zha Ewry: I'd be glad to write up a proposal for that
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Teravus?
[10:38] Zha Ewry: Would like to pitch in on that?
[10:38] Rex Cronon: how would u want to use it sai?
[10:38] Tess Linden: I've heard several suggestions for requirements that this protocol should support, can we spell them out here?
[10:39] Teravus Ousley: well, it seems more like a bullet point list of the items discussed
[10:39] Teravus Ousley: .. options.. issues.. solutions..
[10:39] Zha Ewry: Sure, and then, lets post that set to the OpenSim dev list, and sl-dev and solict focused feedback
[10:39] Zha Ewry: It'd be really nice if we do this in a way which has a lot of outreach
[10:40] Tao Takashi: - non-square regions
[10:40] Tao Takashi: - sizes which are larger than 256 m but in 256-steps
[10:40] Dahlia Trimble: removing the 256 meter constraint
[10:40] Tao Takashi: - 3d coords
[10:40] Tess Linden: zha: yes opensim dev and sl-dev for sure
[10:40] Tao Takashi: maybe we can sort them by impact
[10:40] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:40] Rex Cronon: using triangular sims:)
[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: smaller than 256 for high density areas
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Non rectangular tesselations cover that Rex?
[10:41] Tao Takashi: - non-rectangualr regiions
[10:41] Zha Ewry: I'm pretty wiling to stick to tesselations of solids for now
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: realXtend and openviewer folk should be consulted as well
[10:41] Teravus Ousley: haha. you *might* be able to do triangular sims.. but sims with curves would be very difficult unless you have the opposite curve at the border.
[10:41] Tao Takashi: (some fuzzy 3d blob in a 7d space)
[10:41] Rex Cronon: not sure
[10:41] Tess Linden: +1 Sai
[10:41] Zha Ewry: nods at Sai
[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: spherical coordinates? lol
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Yes, make sure they get alook
[10:42] Rex Cronon: u can use triangles to make a curve
[10:42] Tao Takashi: I think non.rect sims need a special client anyway
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Hyperplanes
[10:42] Zha Ewry: I am *so* not going to spec hyperplanes
[10:42] Teravus Ousley: Well the only issue with spherical cordinates.. is they're based on a radius of known land
[10:42] Teravus Ousley: .. so adding land to that sphere.. results in everyone getting a new address
[10:42] Tao Takashi: - region domains might want to share the same map space (a shared map server might be an idea)
[10:43] Bartholomew Kleiber: actually triangular sims (which defaults to two sims building a square one) would be smart methinks. One could also do torus universes *shudders*.
[10:43] Rex Cronon: right bartholomew
[10:43] Zha Ewry: As soon as we decouple the handles?
[10:43] Zha Ewry: We can do wraps, and such
[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: torus? o.O
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: [...))...]
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: that would be the only way you could do a 'curve' sim really.
[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: likes torii :)
[10:44] Zha Ewry: You could easily do a world where you walked east four sims, and end up where you started
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: haha, yes.
[10:44] Rex Cronon: with triangles u can do almost anything
[10:44] Rex Cronon: :)
[10:44] Zha Ewry: has a certain fondness for old wargames hexagon teselations
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: you can do that with square sim as well :D. Lots of fun.
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: 'trap' sims
[10:45] Tess Linden: currently request_rez_avatar (agentd -> sim b) gets back the region x and y
[10:45] Zha Ewry: right
[10:45] Zha Ewry: and the client calculates the handle
[10:45] Zha Ewry: which is where the pain starts
[10:45] Rex Cronon: what is a square? two triangles that share an edge:)
[10:46] Tess Linden: place_avatar (client -> agentd) currently has region_url and position x y z
[10:46] Teravus Ousley: yes, we're playing with Tangrams now though :D
[10:46] Dahlia Trimble: and sim coordinates would be UVW instead of XYZ?
[10:46] Tess Linden: it gets back region x and region y
[10:46] Zha Ewry: There's not much reason it couldn't get back, x,y, and handle
[10:46] Bartholomew Kleiber: we need buckyballs. Then again - no. I take that back.
[10:46] Zha Ewry: Better still, coord-set, handle
[10:47] Tess Linden: the handles used to determine if regions are different from each other?
[10:47] Tess Linden: why cant the client use region_url?
[10:47] Butch Arnold: I don't understand why we can't just make each region a subdomain of a domain??
[10:47] Zha Ewry: Well the client isgoing to use the handle on the circuit code I think
[10:47] Teravus Ousley: looks to zha.. since there hasn't been any code shown to him with regards to the test.
[10:47] Tess Linden: coord-set is used for placing relativity between regions
[10:48] Zha Ewry: sighs at teravus
[10:48] Zha Ewry: I need to post that to mantis
[10:48] Tess Linden: the test?
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: should it go to a float instead of fixed number then? A double float?
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Ideall without the current hacks which break both grid mode and default login most of the time
[10:48] Zha Ewry: The rez_avatar test we did a week back
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: .. (clarification: the rez_avatar interop test with OpenSimulator and Linden Agent Domain)
[10:49] Zha Ewry: I owe the community a look at the hacked code
[10:49] Zha Ewry: looks contrite
[10:49] Tess Linden: are you ashamed at the hacks zha?
[10:49] Teravus Ousley: well, it would also be impossible to test without a compiled hacked client :D
[10:49] Zha Ewry: (It would be easier, if it didn't break 25% of normal OpenSim function at the meoment)
[10:49] Zha Ewry: Not the hacks
[10:49] Zha Ewry: it's the breakage that came with it
[10:50] Zha Ewry: I'm tryign to clean up the one at the same time
[10:50] Zha Ewry: I dont' mind showing ugly code, that openSource in a nutshell :-)
[10:50] Tess Linden: Teravus: thats what Enus's framework branch is for
[10:50] Zha Ewry: I don't much like showing code which, when compiled makes really strnage things happen
[10:50] Tess Linden: anyway so back to the protocol, I just want to make sure we're on the same page
[10:51] Tess Linden: are region handles the global map lookup? or is it just a unique handle to differentiate between regions?
[10:52] Teravus Ousley: region handles are commonly used both ways..
[10:52] Teravus Ousley: .. but only really 'have' to be used for the client currently.
[10:52] Zha Ewry: right
[10:53] Tess Linden: so our current client needs a way to know how to place the region on the map, but we're saying here that its not required to be rectangular and only x and y, could be z right?
[10:53] Tao Takashi: yes
[10:53] Tess Linden: so lets make sure that the "map" part of the protocol is independent from the "handle" part of the protocol
[10:54] Tess Linden: would be nice to have clear names for the two, with stated definitions
[10:54] Tess Linden: and then those variations we named off earlier, like tesselations, lets have some examples of how the protocol might look in those
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: internally, a grid might have a poloar coordinate system, so "Zy, is the distance from the center, rather than just "up"
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: ... well that distance would change..
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: polor cordinates.. work for a 'known' set of land.
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: .. ie.. you couldn't add more.
[10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: allows for B-5 world
[10:56] Tess Linden: I'm thinking the response from place_avatar should be something like {'grid-type':"2D", 'grid_x':x, 'grid_y':y}
[10:57] Lillie Yifu: hihi
[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Brown 7 would be a logintudenal coordinate and a angle and a radius
[10:58] Tess Linden: {'grid-type':'polar', 'radius':r, 'angle':angle}
[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: has to take care of some rl issues... bye all :)
[10:58] Tess Linden: i gotta run off to another meeting too
[10:58] Rex Cronon: by dahlia
[10:58] Rex Cronon: bye tess
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: plar 2D vs Plar 3D sphere, cylinder, etc
[10:59] Tess Linden: bye Dahlia
[10:59] Lillie Yifu: altenrate grid topologies?
[10:59] Rex Cronon: i have to go to, so bye everybody
[10:59] Teravus Ousley: tc
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: regularized ones though
[10:59] Tess Linden: bye Rex
[10:59] Tess Linden: bye Zha, thank you!
[10:59] Rex Cronon: have fun
[10:59] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Bye departutres
[10:59] Teravus Ousley: must go to next meeting :P
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: polar 2D, type Sphere, etc
[10:59] Zha Ewry: OK
[11:00] Zha Ewry: I'll write up a proposal
[11:00] Zha Ewry: post it
[11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: polar 3D, type spher
[11:00] Zha Ewry: and we'll discuss shortly

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17

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