Bug triage/2008-03-03/Transcript

Agenda

Transcript of Aric Linden's office hours:

[12:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Kudos to LL for employing Winnie Linden. T'was a good choice :)
[12:03]	Harleen Gretzky:	sweet, what is her role?
[12:04]	Aric Linden:	g'day bug scrubbers of the second world
[12:04]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hello Aric
[12:04]	Aric Linden:	Hi harleen, i just imported your camera bug, ftw
[12:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Something support related
[12:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Outnumbered. :p
[12:05]	Harleen Gretzky:	cool, thx
[12:05]	Aric Linden grins
[12:05]	Squirrel Wood:	gah. awgroupies chat fails to work as usual :(
[12:05]	Aric Linden scowls
[12:06]	Squirrel Wood:	Starting session with AW Groupies please wait.
[12:06]	Squirrel Wood:	error starting...
[12:06]	Aric Linden:	we're working on that one Squirrel
[12:08]	Squirrel Wood:	I know. Its just a bit frustrating :p
[12:08]	Aric Linden:	you think? ;_)
[12:08]	Aric Linden:	:-)
[12:11]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm
[12:11]	Soft Linden:	Attendance is light, but we can still work through these - go ahead and get started?
[12:11]	Squirrel Wood:	ye ^^
[12:11]	Harleen Gretzky:	yup
[12:11]	Soft Linden:	Flung a note out to the Aware of the SL Issue Tracker group for good measure
[12:12]	Aric Linden:	let's just do it
[12:12]	Soft Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Monday_Agenda
[12:12]	Aric Linden:	sorry i got distracted irl
[12:12]	Soft Linden:	Nice stack of stuff!
[12:12]	Aric Linden:	my boss pinged me to discuss something
[12:12]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[12:12]	Aric Linden is wearing a kick me sign today
[12:12]	Soft Linden:	Heh :)
[12:12]	Squirrel Wood:	O.o
[12:12]	Aric Linden:	vwr05198
[12:12]	Aric Linden:	arh
[12:13]	Aric Linden:	vwr-5198
[12:13]	Aric Linden:	is first
[12:13]	Soft Linden:	So the deal on this is - Apple has started adding XP-only stuff to iTunes/Quicktime, so there's no updated version of quicktime without the last two security flaws.
[12:13]	Soft Linden:	Right now, we disable old versions of quicktime, which means Win 2000 can't have quicktime at all in SL anymore
[12:13]	Soft Linden:	2000 is technically a dead OS, dropped by MS as well. But a lot of people still use it.
[12:14]	Soft Linden:	The question's whether it would be appropriate to have a way of bypassing our lockout of insecure quicktime versions.
[12:14]	Aric Linden:	yes, but we can't support what is unsupported by manufacterers, whether we want to or not
[12:14]	Bridie Linden nods
[12:14]	Aric Linden:	I agree Soft; how much code is that for us?
[12:14]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm... I have long decided to ban quicktime from my system as its such a security problem and ressource hog.
[12:14]	Soft Linden:	Two lines if we want to put it in a debug setting where only really experienced users would touch it
[12:15]	Aric Linden:	I think we'd want to simply disable it for insecure versions
[12:15]	Soft Linden:	But that does mean we're enabling people to do something pretty dangerous.
[12:15]	Aric Linden:	yep. how would we know how experienced the user is?
[12:15]	Squirrel Wood:	give them tripple warnings in a brightly flashing window that they cannot ignore... then its their choice?
[12:15]	Harleen Gretzky:	What happens if their client then gets hijacked, maybe there should be a big warning for users wanting to do that
[12:15]	Aric Linden hmms
[12:16]	Aric Linden:	I think this is a larger issue
[12:16]	Aric Linden:	Let's import it and work it internally
[12:16]	Soft Linden:	Well, we can't spend too long coding warnings, etc either. This is for a limited and shrinking user base.
[12:16]	Aric Linden:	exactly
[12:16]	Aric Linden:	I'd like to know what the win2000 numbers are in our user base
[12:16]	Harleen Gretzky:	Or LL could just say they no longer support Win200
[12:16]	Aric Linden:	exactly Harleen
[12:17]	Soft Linden:	Alex should be able to tell you pretty quickly - maybe add him as a watcher and ask
[12:17]	Aric Linden:	yep
[12:17]	Aric Linden:	bridie, are you on import duty today?
[12:17]	Bridie Linden stands at attention
[12:17]	Bridie Linden:	yezzir!
[12:17]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[12:17]	Aric Linden grins at his pal
[12:17]	Aric Linden:	onto vwr-4887
[12:18]	Squirrel Wood:	Ah.. minimized past the minimum size?
[12:18]	Squirrel Wood:	simply resizing them immediately expands them to the min size
[12:18]	Aric Linden nods
[12:18]	Squirrel Wood:	which is a passable workaround till this is fixed
[12:18]	Aric Linden:	we have a few windows we know are doing this
[12:18]	Aric Linden:	let's import and pass to Steve please
[12:19]	Soft Linden:	Odd - when does this happen?
[12:19]	Squirrel Wood:	script and notecard windows like to do it
[12:19]	Bridie Linden will do
[12:19]	Aric Linden:	vwr-4575
[12:19]	Harleen Gretzky:	Minimize one window then bring up another
[12:19]	Bridie Linden:	4575 is already imported
[12:19]	Aric Linden:	yep, we talked about it at your triage, I think
[12:19]	Soft Linden:	Adding a vote on this. I miss a lot of IMs over this too
[12:20]	Squirrel Wood:	definitely
[12:21]	Aric Linden:	k
[12:21]	Aric Linden:	Soft, you may want to comment the internal jira on this as well
[12:21]	Soft Linden:	Cando!
[12:21]	Squirrel Wood:	Candy?
[12:21]	Aric Linden:	it's currently assigned to RX but this is as designed functionality, i believe.
[12:22]	Aric Linden:	we should assign the pjira to workingonit linden
[12:22]	Aric Linden:	prevent it from coming up in searches
[12:22]	Aric Linden:	vwr-1286 is next
[12:22]	Squirrel Wood:	Last Triaged: 16/Jan/08 09:10 AM
[12:22]	Lillie Yifu:	is he like roundtuit linden's cousin?
[12:23]	Soft Linden:	VWR-1286 in a comment, Gigs mentions that Qarl is working on something related, so he's abandoning his patch
[12:23]	Soft Linden:	Might import and pass it to Qarl to see if he really is on something related and wants it
[12:23]	Aric Linden:	I'm going to resolve this one
[12:23]	Aric Linden:	oh, that's a good idea, Soft
[12:24]	Aric Linden:	let's do that
[12:24]	Aric Linden:	vwr-400
[12:25]	Soft Linden:	I used to see VWR-400 a lot, but not recently. In the comments, it's claimed that Jeff Kelley's repro in there still works though
[12:25]	Squirrel Wood:	Hmm.,.. I had quite a number of prims refusing to change textures or size last saturday
[12:25]	Aric Linden:	I'd like to import it and have someone in QA rerpo it
[12:25]	Soft Linden:	We've always thought this was packet loss, but commenters claim not. Should be easy to verify - maybe on to QA?
[12:25]	Squirrel Wood:	and that at 0.0 packet loss
[12:26]	Soft Linden:	Yeah.
[12:26]	Aric Linden:	jinx
[12:26]	Soft Linden:	D'oh! I owe you a Coke.
[12:26]	Aric Linden laughs
[12:26]	Squirrel Wood:	was on a H4 sim though
[12:26]	Soft Linden:	Or a beer. I left a bunch for you in the Battery 'fridge.
[12:26]	Bridie Linden decline SF STYLE - FashCon Notice #3 -Sophia dresses from A group member named NovaStar Shilova.
[12:26]	Aric Linden:	hey, were you here last week?
[12:26]	Soft Linden:	Nah :>
[12:26]	Aric Linden:	k
[12:26]	Aric Linden:	i was prepared to register hurt feelings
[12:26]	Aric Linden:	:-)
[12:26]	Lillie Yifu:	Not packet loss
[12:27]	Lillie Yifu:	I have seen this one
[12:27]	Aric Linden:	bridie, let's take this one, please assign to me
[12:27]	Bridie Linden:	got it!
[12:27]	Lillie Yifu:	Also it works differently on h1 versus h4 sims
[12:27]	Aric Linden:	ahh. thanks Lillie - useful data point
[12:28]	Harleen Gretzky:	That could be do to link ditances being different
[12:28]	Bridie Linden:	Add comment Lillie?
[12:28]	Lillie Yifu:	Will do
[12:28]	Lillie Yifu:	the in client browser is a bit slow
[12:28]	Aric Linden:	ty lillie
[12:28]	Aric Linden:	svc-255
[12:28]	Squirrel Wood:	ghost prims - last seen sunday in FurNation Vista
[12:28]	Squirrel Wood:	(H4)
[12:28]	Soft Linden:	Ah, was about to ask :)
[12:29]	Soft Linden:	Yeah. This is popping up quite a bit of recent. And it's definitely not just the viewer getting out of sync with the world... you can TP away and come back and the collision geometry still exists without visible objects.
[12:29]	Squirrel Wood:	Someone mentioned....
[12:29]	Squirrel Wood:	that rotated prims may play a role
[12:29]	Soft Linden:	Hmm
[12:30]	Aric Linden:	so is there a better strategy than having someone contact a linden (who prolly won't reply anyway)
[12:30]	Squirrel Wood:	and btw... H4 treats hollow prims as solid
[12:30]	Soft Linden:	Well, I ran out and looked at a number of these. I asked people to contact me when they saw them. But in each case, there's not an object in the simstate that corresponds with the collision volume.
[12:31]	Soft Linden:	So short of attaching a bugger to a running region or getting a reliable repro, this is *hard*.
[12:31]	Lillie Yifu:	hmmmm
[12:31]	Soft Linden:	Probably worth importing just to try and get a discussion going internally.
[12:31]	Lillie Yifu:	I've had people ask me about this one
[12:31]	Aric Linden nods at soft
[12:31]	Lillie Yifu:	I will see if I can get them to reproduce
[12:31]	Aric Linden looks at Lillie
[12:32]	Soft Linden:	I think it's one of these thingswhere everyone kinda knows about it, but assumes it's someone else's problem.
[12:32]	Aric Linden:	please updat the issue if you can
[12:32]	Lillie Yifu:	It was on Venufalat, a very loaded mainland sim
[12:32]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm...
[12:32]	Lillie Yifu:	tanner Mills was trying to build something
[12:32]	Aric Linden:	@Soft - At linden?
[12:32]	Lillie Yifu:	and she kept banging into an invsibile prim
[12:32]	Soft Linden:	If you can get a regular repro, you'd be a rock star :) But also please consider posting that as a security issue so it's not out there for griefers to use.
[12:32]	Lillie Yifu:	thre was also something about it on the open source scripting group about a month ago
[12:32]	Lillie Yifu:	exactly this description
[12:32]	Soft Linden:	Aric - it can happen, even at the lab!
[12:32]	Aric Linden falls over laughing
[12:32]	Squirrel Wood:	building in location A on the sim, "physical" object in location B - that has been observed too
[12:33]	Aric Linden:	Lillie, if you can find the thread and add it as a comment, that'd be excellent
[12:33]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps some coordinates are warped somewhere causing this
[12:34]	Aric Linden nods at Squirrel
[12:34]	Aric Linden:	shall we move on to SVC-1582?
[12:34]	Soft Linden:	So we're importing the last, pushing it around for discussion?
[12:35]	Aric Linden:	yes
[12:35]	Aric Linden:	re: last one
[12:35]	Bridie Linden nods
[12:35]	Aric Linden:	svc-1582 should be imported and assigned to Sidewinder please
[12:35]	Soft Linden:	I think SVC-1582 is related to last week's with the samurai sword. Small pushes aren't as effective in h4 as in h1, and that's what these flight boosters use.
[12:36]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm
[12:36]	Bridie Linden:	i'll import and give to Sidewinder
[12:36]	Squirrel Wood:	my flight assist works like a charm on H4...
[12:36]	Aric Linden:	sidewinder likes to collect the scripts
[12:36]	Squirrel Wood:	and its the one from the script library
[12:36]	Aric Linden:	and talk to the residents
[12:36]	Harleen Gretzky:	Only seems to happen with Darling's flight assist, I use Flight Feather and do not have that issue, so Sidewinder might want to ask Darling for one
[12:36]	Aric Linden nods at Harleen
[12:36]	Soft Linden:	Harleen - is that in the comments? Would be great data to include!
[12:36]	Bridie Linden:	can you comment Harleen (if you haven't already!)? :)
[12:36]	Lillie Yifu:	Mystitool works correctly
[12:37]	Bridie Linden:	beer, Soft!
[12:37]	Soft Linden:	Aric, Bridie will give you the beer for me!
[12:37]	Harleen Gretzky:	Don't know, I will comment if not
[12:37]	Aric Linden:	vwr-5212
[12:37]	Soft Linden:	5215 ?
[12:37]	Aric Linden laughs
[12:37]	Aric Linden:	bridie only drinks coffee
[12:37]	Aric Linden:	really strong coffee
[12:37]	Aric Linden:	and only eats soy products
[12:37]	Soft Linden:	Of course. Why else do you think she'd be willing to give up the beer!
[12:38]	Aric Linden laughs at soft
[12:38]	Bridie Linden laughs
[12:38]	Bridie Linden drinks beer, tea and rice milk FTW
[12:38]	Bridie Linden:	not at same time
[12:38]	Aric Linden thinks triage is fun
[12:38]	Soft Linden:	I tried some of that soy and tofu stuff out in SF. My midwestern friends are slowly leaving me over it. Just not worth it.
[12:38]	Aric Linden:	I like vwr-5212
[12:38]	Aric Linden:	find new friends
[12:38]	Aric Linden:	everything moves from the coast in
[12:39]	Lillie Yifu:	I like Bug triage... nothing is more fulfillng than giving other peopel work to do
[12:39]	Aric Linden:	eventually you'll be seen as a leader
[12:39]	Bridie Linden lols
[12:39]	Aric Linden grins at Lillie
[12:39]	Soft Linden:	Ha!
[12:39]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[12:39]	Aric Linden:	So you're a CEO IRL?
[12:39]	Soft Linden:	Over here, the theory is that the country's tilted southwest, and all the weird stuff sinks to the bottom.
[12:39]	Lillie Yifu:	NoI'm a peon who works for the director of a Not-for-Profit
[12:40]	Squirrel Wood:	aww
[12:40]	Lillie Yifu:	He's very fulfilled
[12:40]	Soft Linden:	Then again, that would make Maine normal. Hrm.
[12:40]	Aric Linden:	apparently so
[12:40]	Squirrel Wood:	I have to deal with 500 incompetent users five days a week :p
[12:40]	Aric Linden:	Soft, is that why the cubs spring train in AZ?
[12:40]	Lillie Yifu:	isn't incompetent user redundant
[12:40]	Squirrel Wood:	No.
[12:40]	Soft Linden:	I have no answer for that!
[12:41]	Squirrel Wood:	It accentuates the hidden meaning :p
[12:41]	Aric Linden lols
[12:41]	Lillie Yifu:	I'm here to ask about VWR-5004
[12:41]	Soft Linden:	Are we on VWR-5212 or 5215 ?
[12:41]	Aric Linden:	let's finish up 5212 first
[12:41]	Squirrel Wood:	15 ?
[12:41]	Soft Linden:	5215 was on the agenda. Wasn't sure where 12 popped in
[12:41]	Aric Linden:	my bad
[12:41]	Bridie Linden:	me either
[12:42]	Aric Linden:	It's 5215 - i'm just stupid today
[12:42]	Bridie Linden thinks Aric is having fun with us...
[12:42]	Aric Linden:	nah.
[12:42]	Aric Linden is wearing a kickme sign today
[12:42]	Squirrel Wood:	15 is a good idea...
[12:42]	Soft Linden:	He's already had that beer I owed him.
[12:42]	Lillie Yifu nods
[12:42]	Squirrel Wood:	may have SL pop up a notice if the files are found in the cache ?
[12:42]	Aric Linden gulps, erm, agrees
[12:42]	Lillie Yifu:	idea what about something simple
[12:42]	Aric Linden:	let's take this one and assign to triage
[12:42]	Lillie Yifu:	like "save locally" as a butotn
[12:42]	Bridie Linden:	got it
[12:42]	Lillie Yifu:	and autosave once the user has provided a local place
[12:43]	Soft Linden:	This is a cool idea. Should work for notecards too though.
[12:43]	Aric Linden agrees
[12:43]	Squirrel Wood:	mimic the inventory structure locally for scripts that are mod+copy ?
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	could I add a suggstion
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	"load locally"
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	as well
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	I use a different text edtor
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	It wuold be great to save a file in the text edtior
[12:43]	Lillie Yifu:	and then be able to load exactly the file just saved
[12:43]	Soft Linden:	Lillie Yifu - would make another JIRA for that. Would really be different than this issue.
[12:44]	Squirrel Wood:	and add import of .txt files into notecards!
[12:44]	Lillie Yifu:	kk
[12:44]	Soft Linden:	But could link it to this - wouldn't be surprised if the same Linden handled it
[12:44]	Harleen Gretzky:	Two up from this issue may be what you are talking about
[12:44]	Aric Linden:	should we talk about VWR-5004?
[12:45]	Harleen Gretzky:	VWR-5206 on the agenda I meant
[12:45]	Harleen Gretzky:	Save and load scripts from the script editor to local disk
[12:45]	Lillie Yifu:	Thanks Harleen!
[12:46]	Soft Linden:	Ah, linking that as related, Harleen - thanks!
[12:46]	Soft Linden:	VWR-5004 - probably wouldn't want to move on this before parcel media's all rolled out. But I sure think we intend this anyway?
[12:46]	Soft Linden:	I'm betting there's an internal issue ot link to alreayd.
[12:47]	Lillie Yifu:	Several people have suggseted that the menu item name could be fixed as part of dazzle
[12:47]	Lillie Yifu:	since the UI is being changed anyway
[12:47]	Squirrel Wood:	I smell a borken AO
[12:47]	Aric Linden:	yes, this is already a big topic internally, Lillie
[12:48]	Lillie Yifu:	As you can tell form the number of votes, it's a topic of some discussion out here
[12:48]	Lillie Yifu:	for example, I'm not the ony person who can only log on to jira reliably through the in client browser
[12:48]	Lillie Yifu:	and not through my regular one
[12:49]	Aric Linden:	I'd like to import this and figure out internally who should be discussing it with residents
[12:49]	Lillie Yifu:	Pretend for a moment you are talkign to a liberal arts major basically non techie.
[12:49]	Lillie Yifu:	How much work is it to add cut and past fromthe browser window into the rest of the UI
[12:50]	Harleen Gretzky:	OnRez client already has the internal browser as teh default for web browsin
[12:50]	Lillie Yifu:	yes I thin k that is in the description now
[12:50]	Aric Linden:	um, your description in the issue is far from basic liberal arts major
[12:50]	Squirrel Wood:	I would prefer having a choice whether to use the internal browser or my preferred one... I do run a couple of security add-ins on firefox..
[12:50]	Lillie Yifu:	an earlier JIRA ios linked to to allow llLoadURL() to point to the in client browser
[12:51]	Lillie Yifu:	that's because several peopel jumped all over me and made suggsetsions
[12:51]	Harleen Gretzky:	In the OnRez it is a preference option
[12:51]	Lillie Yifu:	which I added
[12:52]	Aric Linden:	yes, let's import and discuss internally
[12:52]	Bridie Linden will do
[12:52]	Aric Linden:	thanks Bridie
[12:52]	Lillie Yifu:	thank you!
[12:52]	Aric Linden:	so svc-1710 is next
[12:52]	Aric Linden grins at Lillie - this means you'll have to come back with other issues
[12:53]	Bridie Linden grins too
[12:53]	Soft Linden:	Rgh. svc-1710 is subtle. The problem is that tweaking this could break scripts relying on the queer and inconsistent behavior.
[12:53]	Lillie Yifu:	Don't worry I'll come back for the shes
[12:53]	Lillie Yifu:	soes*
[12:53]	Lillie Yifu:	argh shoes*
[12:54]	Aric Linden:	soft, is there a way to ensure backwards compatibility?
[12:55]	Harleen Gretzky:	Maybe not because your script does not work right unless you cast correctly
[12:55]	Aric Linden nods
[12:55]	Soft Linden:	Boy, this would take some thought. I can't think of a way without a bit of a kludge.
[12:55]	Harleen Gretzky:	This just makes it so it works no matter how you cast if I got it right
[12:56]	Aric Linden:	let's take this in and assign to triage for discussion
[12:56]	Aric Linden:	Don Linden might have some suggestions on this one
[12:56]	Harleen Gretzky:	Strife included a patch
[12:56]	Squirrel Wood:	on recompile "fix" this ?
[12:56]	Soft Linden:	Yeah. It's definitely a *valid* problem/fix. Just the side-effects of a language change.
[12:56]	Soft Linden:	Anyway. Yeah - triage would be great.
[12:57]	Soft Linden:	Don would totally have ideas on this.
[12:57]	Squirrel Wood:	basically duplicate the function using a fixed version with a new bytecode and on recompile, use the new bytecode?
[12:57]	Soft Linden:	Or Babbage if he's in on these.
[12:57]	Soft Linden:	Babbage should be a watcher.
[12:57]	Squirrel Wood:	that would keep old scripts working...
[12:57]	Aric Linden:	babbage doesn't usually come to internal triage though we could push it to him if we so desired
[12:57]	Aric Linden:	let
[12:57]	Aric Linden:	let's give don a crack first
[12:58]	Harleen Gretzky:	Is there any old code using this though, since it does not work when casted wrong?
[12:58]	Aric Linden:	i'm sure there is old code using this
[12:58]	Soft Linden:	Squirrel - problem is it would still die when people recompile. And it's not a compile-time failure. So you'd still get a script that silently changed behavior when you didn't touch the code.
[12:59]	Squirrel Wood:	ye
[12:59]	Squirrel Wood:	but how often do people recompile scripts?
[12:59]	Aric Linden:	so we'd have to get babbage involved, i think
[12:59]	Harleen Gretzky:	OK, maybe I am just not understanding the whole thing, but I would think if someone coded wrong they would not get the right results and would turn around and code the right way
[12:59]	Squirrel Wood:	especially OLD scripts
[13:00]	Aric Linden:	what about scripts sold to others?
[13:00]	Squirrel Wood pokes the time, then subtracts 1 from the hour....
[13:00]	Harleen Gretzky:	Their script does not work thogh
[13:01]	Aric Linden:	right
[13:01]	Squirrel Wood:	can't recompile scripts without the proper permissions methinks
[13:01]	Soft Linden:	I wouldn't rule out people leaving dead, ineffective code in. You don't want that to suddenly start doing something.
[13:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	This: integer ix = llListFindList(MyList, (list) ((string)id) ); does not return the a result so could never be used
[13:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	OK
[13:02]	Soft Linden:	The problem is this is all guesswork right now. Someone might have a good way of searching a sample base of scripts to see if the pattern's in use to know if we care or not.
[13:02]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm
[13:03]	Soft Linden:	How many did we get through today?
[13:03]	Aric Linden:	no new records I'm afraid
[13:03]	Bridie Linden:	10 FTW
[13:03]	Aric Linden sniffs
[13:03]	Squirrel Wood:	10 more than none ^^
[13:03]	Aric Linden is used to 20 or more
[13:03]	Soft Linden:	10 more than none is fine fine fine
[13:03]	Aric Linden:	yeap
[13:03]	Aric Linden:	it's all good