Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 14th, 2012 Meeting

15:06	Geenz Spad	well get started, so any interesting things people want to bring up?
15:07		JIRAs, ideas regarding content creation, etc...
		if not, we'll move on to the UI discussion
15:08	Trinity Dejavu	Nothing that isnt better suited to the pathfinding ug ㋡
	Geenz Spad	haha
15:09		so last week, I believe we left off with Kadah and I discussing possible ways we could approach the building UI, and this week I believe Trinity has a few ideas to bring to the table on the subject
15:10		now for anyone who isn't aware, the build UI we currently have has gotten fairly cramped over the 9 years we've had it
		localizations actually break in some cases, and daring to add anything new to it can be a bit of a nightmare
15:12		so ideas and feedback on the issue are most certainly appreciated
15:13	sachi Vixen	I don't know if this is particularly relevant so forgive me if it isn't but when the new viewers came in there were certain changes to the way things happen in appearance that made creation for people who make a lot of skins or clothing that way into a bit of a nightmare.
15:14		More clicks to do things etc is there anyway that process can be simplified again?
	Trinity Dejavu	Yeah the build floater is 10 years of packing packing and squeezing and jamming more and more and more into that one floater, that was never really a great idea in the first place. if anyonehas tried to edit the XUI for that you will know exactly what I mean. I'm not really thinking about the UI for editing an avatar ir making a clothing layer which could certainly do with some love
	sachi Vixen	It's little things but I'm sure there are a lot of us who would appreciate those clicks being gone
	Geenz Spad	sachi: we'll get to that if we have time, okay?
15:15		if not today, then next week
	sachi Vixen	Thank you Geenz
15:16	Trinity Dejavu	There are basically two different use cases for content creation UI and I think it's time to separate them
		the needs of a user who is moving a couch, or rezzing a car, or editing a hat are very different from the needs of the person making that item in the first place
15:17	sachi Vixen	That's very true Trinity but the problem is often if you don't these things for hours, there often isn't an understanding of peoples needs.
15:18	Trinity Dejavu	basically what we have been tossing back and forth between kitty and myself is breaking the tools into two parts. Something for the consumer thats easy, clean, simple and painless. and then something for the builder who wants all the bells and whistles
	sachi Vixen	Like the changes I mentioned, you can tell whoever did those has never stood in appearance for a few hours making skins.
	Trinity Dejavu	thats not true
15:19	sachi Vixen	what isn't true?
15:20	Geenz Spad	I'm assuming you're speaking amongst the people who designed the current appearance UI sachi?
	sachi Vixen	yes Geenz, its just apparent with some changes to how you work that the people who made those changes have never spent time working in that way
	Trinity Dejavu	they took the V1 UI designed to fill a need by an engineer and jammed it in a tall slim sidebar form factor, it. other stuff then got redesigned following guidelines .. to make a shirt you do a, b , c d and so on. It just happened that the method the v2 sidebar based UI was based off doesnt match how the few hardcore creators used those tools
15:22		which kind of comes back to breaking things down into consumer/casual and expert level tools.
	[noctis.mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers]	(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
15:23	Trinity Dejavu	no
15:24	Geenz Spad	it may be a good idea to break it down to "how simple do we make operation X"
		and if Oz is saying anything, I think he'll need to move closer :p
	Trinity Dejavu	the simple edit tool set would be persistent between both
15:25	sachi Vixen	Breaking it down might mean a much much simpler UI for new users and I think that would seriously help retention. I've seen a lot of newbies come and go over my years in Sl and I know many get frustrated by the complexity of SL at the beginning
15:26	Geenz Spad	so I'm guessing something like, simple edit tools to advanced properties (think for setting flexi params)?
		do I have the right idea here?
	[noctis.mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers]	(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
15:27	Typhaon Nishi	what would the expert/advanced tools entail?
	Trinity Dejavu	simple case, I want to move a chair in my home. I dont want to see a full on build floater. I want something very very minimal. say a single tool bar that folds up from the bottom of the screen
15:28		just enough to grab the item, move it on the XY and rotate it on the Z.
		the user has no need to see its name or description or properties or numbers or contents
15:29	Geenz Spad	so kinda like a toolbar?
	Trinity Dejavu	at most , yes
	Geenz Spad	well the idea does sound kinda interesting
	Trinity Dejavu	simple obvious tools that might be more akin to a video game
15:30	Nal	A right-click with a MOVE in the popup and then show handles on the object...
	Geenz Spad	so how about, say, applying a simple texture to an object?
	Trinity Dejavu	well, once you're texturing then you step up to expert
		I dont want there to be any fuzzy middle ground
	Helpless	drag-and-drop from inventory if you're doing it for a picture frame in someone's home :o
15:31	Nal	Your getting into building, to do textures you have find or upload them, that seems like a big step up from simple controls
	Typhaon Nishi	I think the line thats been drawn is a user / creator line
	Trinity Dejavu	you're either using or making. one is no skill, the other requires all the same skills you need now
15:32	Kadah	For code refactoring simplicity (since the viewer currently assumes only one instance of any form of build tools floater/panel/UI, we could do something where the same floater covers both usages by being expandable to show the rest of the "advanced" build tools. (Similar to this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26299591/samples/build_floaters3.png)
	sachi Vixen	I think that would be a very interesting direction to go in
	Trinity Dejavu	I hate build tools in a flaoter. period
	Geenz Spad	so, we're going more into a full blown "UI" than a floater, thus far the idea is pretty interesting
	Typhaon Nishi	so what you're saying is you have your basic menu intended for users and then a sort of advanced menu for builders
15:33	Helpless	even the collapsed one there is horribly overcomplicated for anyone trying to move a couch or fit an attachment
	Typhaon Nishi	I think for a basic menu that could even be too much
15:34		11 tick boxes
	Trinity Dejavu	could then have a side bar for the full toolset
	Kadah	I would hate build tools not being a floater. Often I find that I don't need it on screen for a lot of building and minimize it so I'm just in "build mode". Docked panels or toolbars would only cause my workspace to be permanently smaller.
	Geenz Spad	from the sounds of it, it's not really a "basic menu", more like a full blown UI of basic functionality that persists across both user level things and expert level operations, am I correct Trinity?
15:35	Trinity Dejavu	yes. you have no editing at all. the basic toolset and then basic + advanced
15:36	Geenz Spad	Kadah: is there any ways you could think of that the impact you've mentioned could be mitigated using Trinity's idea?
	Kadah	Well, what would a basic "move my furniture" UI actually need for a UI? Doesn't all the overlayed movement controls on the obejct server all the basic move, rotate and scale functions without needing an UI?
15:37	Trinity Dejavu	yes, but it requires keyboard shortcuts
		basic user - point and click friendly
	Kadah	What is Trinity's? I missed most of it.
15:38	Trinity Dejavu	2 modes for editing. basic and basic + advanced. basic is tailored for consumers specifically. very simple editing tools that are more video game in design than 3D modelling
15:39	Kadah	(Also, I'm partly distracted atm writing a GUI frontend app for semi-automated disc duplication. :p)
	Trinity Dejavu	say a tool bar that folds up from the bottom of the screen, half an inch on screen tops
15:40	Kadah	Define what "more video game in design than 3D modelling" means? I've seen many different ways that is done in video games.
15:41		And most of the ones I've used use ONLY keyboard shortcuts for mode changing and an aim vector in 1st person viewer
	Trinity Dejavu	point and click friendly, visual
	Geenz Spad	I'm assuming that what Trinity's talking about is what amounts to a simple toolbar that has all of the basic functions someone needs to place something
	Trinity Dejavu	exactly
15:42	Geenz Spad	"need to place something? well here's your position, rotation, and scale; now go nuts!"
	Kadah	What would these basic functions be? So far it seems that its just mode changing
	Trinity Dejavu	place a couch. I need to be able to see it, I need to be able to move it on the XY and rotate it on the Z. and that's the lot
15:43	Helpless	right now with the build floater, the most user-friendly pieces of the UI are useless because they represent the different tools rather than the different actions most users perform (move, rotate, resize)... instead those are text options amidst what is to most user gibberish and scary
	Geenz Spad	(also, I apologize if I'm slightly less responsive; getting last weeks logs sorted out while I have a bit of time to do so)
	Trinity Dejavu	yeah. you should not be able to break your object using the basic tools
15:44	Kadah	Break meaning no edit linked? Right
	Trinity Dejavu	why would a consumer need to edit linked?
	Geenz Spad	well, how about we define what tools we should have in this basic toolset; position, rotation, and scale thus far, how about numerical inputs?
	Kadah	Excatly
15:45	Trinity Dejavu	numerical inputs are probably to techie
	Kadah	I'd at least have numerical readout of the current position, which I think v3 has already on screen
	Geenz Spad	should we keep those away? or should we devise some sort of simple way of doing this (such as Maya and Max's little numerical input fields)
	sachi Vixen	Light, I think its important to have a simple light button with a lightbulb and some presets to introduce people to setting their own light in SL. It's shocking the number of people who still don't understand how
	Trinity Dejavu	the numbers get shown top of screen, that's more information than you need
		define setting your own light
15:46	Kadah	"My face light isn't bright enough."
	sachi Vixen	Just simple front page access to light presets
	Helpless	and for resizing I would add a slider for size as well... one reason resize scripts still get put into stuff is because it's just easier to understand +5%% than the precision dragging of the resize handle
15:47	sachi Vixen	Its a bit obscure for new users to change default light atm, a simple button and a preset drop down would be a great intro
	Kadah	A resize slider is a bit of a technical challenge
	Geenz Spad	hm
15:48	Kadah	Since minimum size isn't obvious.
	Geenz Spad	there may be a way that we can sort that one out
	Kadah	And with the 64m max, the default slider scale would be pretty wild
15:49	Trinity Dejavu	bounding box and corner handles are probably more then enough
		defaults to stretch all sides
		and keeps the bottom of the bounding box Z pos fixed
	Helpless	problem with those handles is that if you get near the edge of the screen, the camera rotates and your resize flies into extremes :p
	Trinity Dejavu	so when I drag rezise my couch, I dont end up with a floaty couch
15:50	Helpless	same with the position arrows for that matter :o
	Kadah	If you slider control is, say, 250px wide, 1px of movement could be over a quarter meter change.
	Trinity Dejavu	combination 3D UI for move XY and rot Z - does not allow any other rotation or movement would be nice too
15:51	Geenz Spad	heh, where this is going, let's throw the position/scale/rotation gizmos in with this little redesign while we're at it :p
		(kidding of course, but who knows!)
	Trinity Dejavu	3d gizmos are great
	Geenz Spad	personally I love how they went about it in the newer versions of the Unreal Editor
15:52		position, scale, and rotation all in one (or not if you don't want it)
	Typhaon Nishi	how do you switch between them in unreal editor?
	Trinity Dejavu	crud .. cant rez here
	Typhaon Nishi	when you say theyre all in one
	Trinity Dejavu	wouldn't it be an idea if you could rez at a CC UG :P
15:53	Geenz Spad	Oz, can you enable rezzing temporarily?
	Typhaon Nishi	I think if there is going to be a revamp in the move control, can there be something to prevent objects from "pinging off"
15:54	Oz Linden	done
		what is "pinging off" ?
	Trinity Dejavu	thats a couch or similar furniture item .. imagination required
15:55	Typhaon Nishi	its happend a few times before, you move something with the gizmo and all of a sudden it "pings" off into the distance
	Helpless	that's because you got too close to the edge of the screen :o
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah
	Geenz Spad	ah, I appear to be mistaken! the object gizmo in UDK hasn't changed much, but I did find something handy for rotation: http://udk.com/elements/img/clip_image008_0003.jpg
15:56	Nal	I think 'pinging off' is when moving something toward the end of the visible area near the end of move snap marks it rockets away.
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah
		I know why it happens
15:57	Trinity Dejavu	a tool like that as a really obvious first choice
	Kadah	What determins the corners to touch?
15:58	Trinity Dejavu	move it, drag resize and rotate. its also visually familar with the exiting tools
		bounding box
	Kadah	Keep in mind that the BB on linksets with sculpts or mesh can be far larger than the apparent size of the object.
15:59	Trinity Dejavu	the intent is a tool for domestic personal items
		add in a button to position the camer automatically
	Kadah	Which often are poorly made sculpts or mesh :p
16:00	Geenz Spad	alright, well, I think this discussion is headed in an interesting direction
16:01	Trinity Dejavu	you cant factor in everything with a simple toolset, and well, it if means creators have to pay a bit more attention then it's no bad thing
	Kadah	Would the rotate ring be around the obejct?
16:02	Trinity Dejavu	yeah
	Kadah	That could be an issue for large things like landscaping or buildings
	Trinity Dejavu	as long as there is a button to move the cam to a position that you can see all the controls + a margin
	Kadah	Oblong objects would be odd as well
	Geenz Spad	hm
16:03	Kadah	Imagine having something around that size
		And brb
	Geenz Spad	well, we could go on for hours on this, but how about we form a little working group here if no one's opposed to that?
	Trinity Dejavu	yeah, well its not like 3D widgets are hard to mock up
16:06	Geenz Spad	the reason for a having a working group would mostly be to discuss and work on this beyond the constraints that we have for the meeting we have every week, this way we can use the meetings more to present what work's been done during the rest of the week
		what do you think Trinity?
16:07	Trinity Dejavu	that would be great, especially if there was somewhere we can leave the results out
16:08	Geenz Spad	well, there is the sandbox in Hippo Hollow
		not unless someone can come up with a better place
	Trinity Dejavu	that works
	Geenz Spad	alright
16:09		sachi: would you like to discuss the appearance editing issues you have now, or would you rather bring it up next week when we'll have more time?
	Kadah	I've got a permanent build platform at my sim :p
16:10	sachi Vixen	I can give you a quick idea if you think its helpful
	Geenz Spad	we have 5 minutes left, so it's up to you
	Kadah	Is someone talking in voice?
	Geenz Spad	and I'm fine with where ever Kadah, discuss it with Trinity and Kitty as well though
16:11	Trinity Dejavu	prefer a public place and hippo seems ideal
	sachi Vixen	Basically when you are amking something like skin yu need to change a lot of head textures, the body usually stays the same. In the old 1.23 you could go into appearance, stay there, change the head, save, change the head, save.
	Kadah	Hippo Hallow is likely better, fewer random body parts laying around there :p
	Geenz Spad	alrighty then
16:12		I suppose that makes Oz the guy to talk to if you're not a part of the open source contributor's group already
	sachi Vixen	Now every time you save you are thrown out of the window, you have to reopen, reopen the texture box and start again. I can't tell you how annoying this is then you have to do 48 heads and I know a lot of designers of texture clothing also find this not a fun new feature.
		We do get carpal tunnel injuries as it is fromt his kind of work and the extra clicking is just unfortunate.
16:13	Geenz Spad	so would I be correct in assuming that you'd like to have the ability to keep the skin and clothing editors open after saving something?
		is that the basic gist of it?
	Typhaon Nishi	maybe cliking some kind of preview button perhaps?
		which updates the texture
	sachi Vixen	oh yes please Geenz
	Geenz Spad	alright, something to look into
	sachi Vixen	want to keep it all open, save, do another one and so on
16:14	Kadah	Doesnt it already have that, but its not labeled clearly?
	Oz Linden	separate Save & Close ?
	sachi Vixen	It used to be that way and its just not a happy change
	Trinity Dejavu	well at it's simplest thats just a button if you can write up *exactly* what you want to see different
	Kadah	Save and not close.
	Geenz Spad	a separate button maybe Oz?
	Kadah	I haven't actually used V3 to edit appearance or a skin ever.
16:15	sachi Vixen	It used to be that using save as worked, but I find this is no longer the case int he newer viewers
	Oz Linden	maybe... would have to look at the specific screens involved
	Geenz Spad	alright then
		well, on that note, how about we wrap up?
	sachi Vixen	Thanks [16:15] KadahKadah has not heard any prase for the v2/3 appearance UI.
	Kadah	Lottas complaints though.
16:16	Geenz Spad	thanks everyone for coming out today, seems like we got some stuff done, which is great!