Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 21st, 2012 Meeting

15:03	Geenzian Scientist	for anyone just arriving, you can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
		today we'll be focusing on the UI discussion first
15:05	Oz Linden	Introductions.... Brooke is coordinating all our efforts for Materials, and Leo is our UI designer tasked with making the changes needed for the materials project. He'd like to leverage the input from this group. Be nice. Take it away Leo...
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	thanks [15:06] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt listens attentivly
15:06	Siddean Munro	hi all :)
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	We've heard some suggestions and input, and there have been some drawings of a UI for materials.
	Geenzian Scientist	on that note, I'll do a quick recap of last week's discussion
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	I'd like to take the opportunity to take a step back and find out
		what tasks this group finds most important for users to have
		in the new materials functionality
15:07		we've put together a doc with some preliminary user stories
		https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/document/d/1UKJfP7S3Ptwdp-bSFc1MAwfU2E61vk2R-RDpTNRGO1Q/edit
		that everyone should feel free to examine. if anyone here is unfamiliar with the term "user story" I am happy to discuss.
15:08		geenz, i'm sorry, i did not see your message.
	Geenzian Scientist	it's fine
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	would you like to recap?
	Geenzian Scientist	indeed! :P
15:09	Kadah	"As a builder, I don't want the tools floater becoming larger and taking up additional litmited screen space." :p
	Geenzian Scientist	so, last week during our build UI discussions, Trinity had an interesting idea: let's break down building tasks ranging from the simple functions of placing an object (such as a couch, car, bed, etc.) to the more advanced functions such as adjusting a prim's flexible properties, a prim's inventory, and so on
15:10	Trinity Dejavu	As a resident builder I have no idea what a normal specular thingy is and want it to go away
	Motor Loon	and no extra window opening like the stupid "More info" button in the build floater now °͜°
15:11	Kadah	"More info"? [15:11] Oz LindenOz Linden suggests that we improve the tone of the discussion by leaving out value-loaded terms like "stupid"
	Trinity Dejavu	Im veyr interested in a basic build mode, simple tools with simple controls that do just enough for a consumer. then a great big Advanced button that exposes all the magic for builders
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	I would disagree that the items inventory is useless to the average user. Some things require access to that for the average user. (like sitters, etc)
15:12	Kadah	(What Oz said) Yes, please, these meetings take long enough as is without banter. :p
	Geenzian Scientist	how about we focus on Leo's topic first (I imagine that today's guests may not be able to make it through the entire meeting today)
	Motor Loon	Sorry, wasn't trying to banter - that's just how I talk °͜°
	Xentha Melune	I remember when there used to be a 'more' button that actually extended the build window downwards into what is currently the tabs and all the things therein.
	Trinity Dejavu	I disagree Isla, a consumer has no need to see inside the couch they are rezzing
15:13	Siddean Munro	well what does your average user need access beyond moving stuff around in space? Because you can access that with Ctrl, Alt and the mac equivalent and don't really need the build box there at all /shrug
	Brooke Linden	thanks, geenz, yes we have to jump off at 3:30
	Kadah	Xen, I recrated that functionality in Ph/FS
15:14	Siddean Munro	I don't know, since I use ALL of the build tools
	Xentha Melune	I'm just saying, it used to be a kinda nice thing to have. Why not have something similar for newer build tools instead of a whole new floater?
	Brooke Linden	what we're looking for scope wise is how to more effectively manage texture building, with the new map types being added in
	Trinity Dejavu	keyboard shortcuts all all well and good - once you know them.
		build tools and build tools 2 ?
	Kadah	I don't find the tools floater colapsing all that useful though, usually I just minimize it instead to stay in build-mode.
	Geenzian Scientist	which for those interested, are normal maps, specular maps, and a few different additional parameters here and there
15:15	Siddean Munro	Brooke, are you just going to add new texture pick boxes for the new maps? Can I suggest a little >> on the side of the texture tab that pops out to the new functions?
	OctaviaJane Farquart	wewt
	Braydon Randt	i fell that the user story is more than acceptable , for the average builder, yet may not be simpl enough for the non builder/dabbler
	Xentha Melune	Each to their own preferences. Not all of us are viewer developers and can modify it to our own preferences.
		Not meant directly at you, just, pointing it out. :p
	Brooke Linden	so, we're going to focus on *what* the users need to do today
15:16	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	The user stories are pitched at the group most likely to use the new features, at least at first -- more advanced builders
	Brooke Linden	and then we'll look at *how* we put that in the tools :)
	Siddean Munro	Ok
	Oriana Kuhr	I would suggest, instead of changing the build panel, a drop menu system similar to the avatar/world/build thing, likt, right under the landmark bar. If you keep all of the tools useable, but out of the way with easy access, it should make most happy.. I use all of the tools, but it gets annoying having to maneuver my camera around the build box
	Trinity Dejavu	I think there is certainly room to punt the entire build tools as advanced into a tabbed sidebar assembly - there there are no problems with size, no need to keep jamming more and more in one teeny floater. Pretty much the standard for any other 3D application
	OctaviaJane Farquart	id like an advanced builders button please
	Nal	When I am texturing using in-world textures, there is lots of searching for the right texture. It seems like Normal and Spec maps are going to add lots more searching. If the Build Panel is split up, may be split off a texturing panel, so it can be big enough to work with,
15:17	Kadah	There is no sidebar.
	Oz Linden	you're all talking about How... Leo is asking about What and Why
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	At this point in the project it's premature to consider how these controls would be invoked or presented.
	Braydon Randt	it might be worth doing like you do with colour and texture , yet on the texture add the buttons for normal and spec
	Oriana Kuhr	or better yet, as people have to pass the mesh test to upload mesh, why not have a "designer" viewer with all the tools, and a normal viewer with no build tools? then only allow registered builders to get a hold of the designer viewer
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	the user stories are step 1. if we can nail those down with your help, we can proceed to which controls we'd need, and then later to how they'd be presented
	Trinity Dejavu	I want options for everything I can edit easily accessible
15:18	Motor Loon	Personally I'd think they'd be most logically placed next to the Texture and Color slots of the "Texture" tab... but I'm unsure just how much more you need with materials than the "Normal" and "Specular" texture slots...
	Oz Linden	For example, the current user stories do not address whether repeats and rotations should be applicable independently to the diffuse, normal, and specular textures....
	Helpless	largest current use by everyone for build tools will be "edit my attachment", followed by "place my <thing I rezzed>"
	Kadah	One issue with the tabbed layout is that the tab bar gets scrolled.
	Trinity Dejavu	yes OIZ, absolutly
	Braydon Randt	well ..... how its presented is " end of line" for the project ... what i want functionality wise ... is covered well enough in the user story
	Motor Loon	..the transparency and glow could be moved underneath the current texture and color slots to make room mabye
	Trinity Dejavu	Oz*
15:19	Siddean Munro	For mesh items, I don't care because they will use their own
	Brooke Linden	are there additional user stories that are missing?
	Vaalith Jinn	I don't see any reason to separately apply repeats/rotations to what essentially are parts of a single material.
	Siddean Munro	well, for me anyway
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	Braydon, thank you -- this is the feedback I need -- or to hear tht there are stories missing
	Motor Loon	well, the question is if they are to have their own values for offset - or simple use the same as the diffuse texture uses right?
	Oz Linden	that is a good question, Motor
15:20	Motor Loon	Might be usecases where it'd be nice to allow to seperate settings
	Trinity Dejavu	assuming there are differences in texture and normal map resolution, the ability to fine tune the position of the normal map is essential
	Geenzian Scientist	I can think of one
		if you want to use a normal map as a detail texture primarily
	Oz Linden	for example, if they are locked to each other, I get alignment automatically; if not, I can create many visual combinations with a small number of textures
	Motor Loon	like if you use a texture with repeats on your face, but dont want the normal map to act that way...
15:21	Vaalith Jinn	hm, i was wrong. fair point Motor.
	Motor Loon	but that's going to be somewhat more info that needs to be sent to the viewer for each face on the object's prims
	Geenzian Scientist	it'd be managable
15:22	Motor Loon	than I'd deffinately do it...
		It'll take up more space for the UI too though
		like... you'd pretty much need 2 more tabs like the current "Texture" tab...
15:23	Braydon Randt	im not happy with the fact that a bump map can only be previewed and not canceld, thats kinda no preview *lol*
	Geenzian Scientist	is there anything else? we only have a few more minutes with today's guests regarding the user stories here
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	The UI is crowded, yes, and we don't want it to sprawl unnecessarily. it's a challenge.
	Motor Loon	nods
	Braydon Randt	how about .......
		and edit object ... in addition to a build tab
	Trinity Dejavu	features first, if the UI doesn't fit, thats a bug
15:24	Braydon Randt	ok scratch that < rethink
	Brooke Linden	we'll be leaving this page accessible after the meeting, so feel free to send us feedback
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	look for stories we missed, first and foremost
	Siddean Munro	Ok
	mighty Leonidas the Mighty	and any detail that needs to be added
	Oz Linden	Send email ( _not_ notecards, please ) to me... I will collect and share
	Brooke Linden	we are also going to provide some information on the forums for the broader group, but don't plan to share this document until then
15:25		we'd like to have a chance to roll in your feedback and then share it more broadly
	Motor Loon	can we edit that user stories page?
15:26	Trinity Dejavu	As a resident builder .. I need to know what can be accomplished before I can come up with meaningful ideas as to what I would like to do with the tools or how they should work.
	Brooke Linden	unfortunately, no, Motor
15:27		please send us feedback through oz
	Motor Loon	As a builder ... I want to be able to specify both normal maps and specular maps per face on my prim. (assume it'd work that way, but since you're asking)
	Braydon Randt	basics are enough at this time ..... upload, edit and download
	Brooke Linden	so perhaps we need to give a bit of a primer on what's possible with normal and specular maps?
	Trinity Dejavu	very much so
	Brooke Linden	that's reasonable
15:28	sachi Vixen	It doesn't mention diffuse maps, they are important too
	Motor Loon	diffuse we already have
	Trinity Dejavu	not just teh basics, but what the limits possible with the SL implementation are
	Siddean Munro	Diffuse is what we currently work with
	Brooke Linden	we'll work on a summary that we can add to this document
	Geenzian Scientist	Oz and I need to put together some docs regarding that is is
	Trinity Dejavu	thank you ㋡
	Geenzian Scientist	as is even*
15:29	Brooke Linden	and the changes for normal and specular may affect the diffuse maps, so it may be important to list what is currently supported for diffuse maps
	Braydon Randt	normals maps are better bump maps they give high rez detail to low rez objects by telling the lighting how to bounce of the object and specular maps are how something reflects light
15:30	Brooke Linden	unfortunately, we need to jump off
	Geenzian Scientist	alright, we'll get on the documentation for the materials project very soon
	Oz Linden	other commitments are calling....
	Brooke Linden	it looks like we have some action items to follow up on :)
	Geenzian Scientist	thanks to Leo and Brooke (Oz too!) for coming by!
	Siddean Munro	thank you Lindens
15:31	Brooke Linden	we'll take care of those and look forward to additional feedback
		thanks so much!
		bye!
	Trinity Dejavu	thankies
	Oz Linden	(incidentally, if you have time, some discussion of a slightly earlier time for this meeting would mean I could attend more reliably)
	sachi Vixen	Bye Lindens, thanks
	Oz Linden	(or maybe later so that I stay away would be better :-) )
		ttfn
15:32	Braydon Randt	so back to us mere mortals then
	Kadah	oh lol
15:33	Geenzian Scientist	right, well let's get back to the UI discussion from last week
		unfortunately I can't enable rezzing on the parcel, so for now I'll be putting Trinity's images on some prims
15:34	Trinity Dejavu	please excuse the roughness .. just to flesh out an idea
15:35	Kadah	Ow, my screen space
	Geenzian Scientist	so I believe the first one is the advanced option, the second is the basic option
	Trinity Dejavu	point 1 you should be able to SEE what uoi are building, not a mess of floaters you have to keep dodging or moving about
15:36		this kind of format is pretty standard game in any 3d content creation application. Can you imagine blender or max if it had a build floater .. no, not really
15:37	Motor Loon	I like the "advanced" mode idea... espicially if it remembers your preference for it so you only have to select what mode to use once
	Trinity Dejavu	remember the sidebar we all hated
	Siddean Munro	I like the basic concept but I would like to see the contents rearranged somewhat to make the advanced mode narrower
15:38		I didn't hate the sidebar, I find the new system of floaters all over my screen very annoying
	Trinity Dejavu	yes, same
		floater are a mess
	Siddean Munro	Constantly moving it around to see what's behind it, access HUDS etc
	Geenzian Scientist	kinda funny, now that the sidebar is gone, people miss it all of a sudden :p
	Kadah	Not really, lol.
15:39	Motor Loon	key element is options to customize to personal taste
	Kaz Nayar	I'm fine with docked windows as long as I have the option to tear them off
	Trinity Dejavu	and I think finding ways to make smaller tighter floaters is a blind alley. were already at a pretty high density on the build tools and now LL want to add a dozen more controls and texture pickers
	Motor Loon	and for the record... I missed the sidebar - atleast for a few weeks after it went away lol..
	Oriana Kuhr	(kinda off topic lol)..I still vote for a builders viewer. personally, i get sick of it when a customer contacts me saying that their item doesnt work anymore, because they decided to delete the scripts or did something else to break it, and they dont know how to build, so they have no idea what they did.
	Trinity Dejavu	well fi you see the basic mode buildiing pic I did
		thats the idea
	Oriana Kuhr	but having things in a "builder bar" seems to make more sense, i think
	Trinity Dejavu	dont expose the tool chest by default
15:40		once you get skilled up, make the basic buttons go away as you dont need they anymore
	Kadah	I am not a fan of tool bars in the viewer.
	Siddean Munro	Is anyone familiar with the new Blender UI? [15:40] Oriana KuhrOriana Kuhr nods
	Geenzian Scientist	there's a new new blender UI?
	Braydon Randt	yes I am Siddean
15:41	Trinity Dejavu	yes
	Siddean Munro	The way they arrange the tools under the T and N options may work
	Trinity Dejavu	and its good
	Siddean Munro	with little flydown subsections
	Oriana Kuhr	i thin the new UI is far easier to work with. especially how we can resize the panels
	Kaz Nayar	I kind of liked the idea of having separate menus.. a build menu and an edit menu.. even if that means repeating some tools. Maybe even have the option in preferences to activate the build menu. Edit being default.
	Siddean Munro	Like a subsection for Position that you can open when you need it
	Oriana Kuhr	yeah, the tools hitind is neat
		*hiding
	Trinity Dejavu	specifics dont help at this point
15:42	Braydon Randt	it seams as though the texturing subsystem is becoming its own system outside a build menu
	Oriana Kuhr	i think Blender should make a viewer, so we can build inworld..lol
	Motor Loon	main problem with the sidebar was that it was completely unflexible... had it been the opposite it might have been loved
	Siddean Munro	I'm not talking about specifics, I'm talking about arrangement of the items we have there now
	Trinity Dejavu	if you have a great idea for laying out some widgits for something, write it down and keep it for when its helpful - you say goiod stuff now and its gonna be forgotten
	Oriana Kuhr	at one point, wasnt the build box in the LL viewer, resizable? a few years ago maybe? that helps
	Siddean Munro	these meetings are logged Trinity
15:43	Trinity Dejavu	well, I think for building it can work pretty well - NO sidepanels at all, none of that full sidebar group properties rubbish
15:44	Kadah	There is no sidebar anyway.
	Oriana Kuhr	Siddean brought up would work, i think. its like having a sidebar that is temporary. in blender, you hit T or N and your potions pop up. then you tat T or N again to hide them, but they are always fast to access
	Motor Loon	a floating window that's dockable - and if docked it would act like a sidebar perhaps... making your worldspace smaller and thereby changing "center of screen" so you wouldn't have to move anything to work the worldspace
	Oriana Kuhr	it would be idea
	Trinity Dejavu	that can be easily fixed kadah
	Oriana Kuhr	*ideal
	Motor Loon	..best of both worlds
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	It would be ideal if it could dock.
	Trinity Dejavu	yes - a side bat with advanced tools that folds in and out as you need
	Kadah	Just its lingering trash.
	Siddean Munro	Having tools hidden under flydowns till you need them also makes better use of screen realestate
15:45	Kaz Nayar	changing center of screen is key for that
	Siddean Munro	we don't need all that stuff out on display all the time when we're not using it
	Oriana Kuhr	in blender, the ONLY thing you can see that lets you know those menus are there, is a teeny weeny little plus sign up in the corners
		they dont take up any space at all
	Trinity Dejavu	yes
15:47	Oriana Kuhr	they are also resizable, in case you want them open, but need a little more room to see
	Trinity Dejavu	I do really like that in BL .. the rest of the new UI isnt really that innovative, more like a finally waking up to how other apps have been doing it for the last 15 years
	Geenzian Scientist	so kind of a "now you see just what you need, and now you don't" kind of affair
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	yes
	Siddean Munro	Yep
	Geenzian Scientist	(note: I haven't actually tried the latest version of blender)
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	it works the same in maya
15:48	Geenzian Scientist	ah
		Maya I can relate to!
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	(and has done for quite some time)
		lol
	Trinity Dejavu	very keen not to reinvent the wheel or some kind of new wheel. but I do want to see consumer level controls that would be more at home in the sims
	Kadah	The few people I know that use Blender have said they hated to new UI.
	Braydon Randt	where as I dont .... as im a builder
15:49	Siddean Munro	http://imgur.com/Wgy3T this is how mine is usually setup
	Kaz Nayar	my one UI wish has always been the ability to drag windows off screen like Photoshop allows. (handy with dual monitors)
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	But really the ability to dock the advanced window and re-centre the view would be amazing. It would eliminate all the floaters.
	Trinity Dejavu	the same people who still use V1 I bet ....
	Motor Loon	everybody hate change - until they get used to it °͜°
	Oriana Kuhr	the new UI is more reliable, imho
	Drongle McMahon	I hated it, but now I like it.
	Braydon Randt	you can dual monitor withblender as well
	Trinity Dejavu	the new blender UI makes the application usable without nweding to learn everything
	Oriana Kuhr	mine is set up similar to that, Siddean :)
15:50	Motor Loon	oh god... if I could dual monitor Second Life™ it would be awesome ;-)
	Kaz Nayar	It really would
	Trinity Dejavu	the old blender you never knew how to do something till you found a tutorial. the new one is discoverable
	Oriana Kuhr	there are so many features that we use in other 3d programs, that would be useful in sl, without creating "more junk" to get in the way
	Braydon Randt	old blender was " too much at once"
	Trinity Dejavu	you cant dual monitor SL ?
	Siddean Munro	The object tools on the left is how I would envision the SL build panel
	Kaz Nayar	you can't drag menus off, no
	Motor Loon	no you can't move a window to your other screen.
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	Siddean - http://cl.ly/image/2q1Z393l1F0M
	Kaz Nayar	they're bound within second life
	Drongle McMahon	Where did the tabs go?
15:51	Oriana Kuhr	blender 2.49- was basically, here are the menus, now try to find stuff. I think the new UI is easier to navigate
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	same concept
	Braydon Randt	you can stretch SL over 2 monitors
		hell .. i can drag it over three
	Geenzian Scientist	so, say, texturing tools?
		would this be its own "mode" with its own button in the toolbar?
	Kaz Nayar	yes, you can drag it but thats not what I mean
	Geenzian Scientist	and I'm assuming that the tool properties would change accordingly
15:52		or would it just kind of be "there"
		as it were
	Braydon Randt	i say that with the amount of texturing stuff comming .... a textur men u would most likely be the best bet
	Trinity Dejavu	in the basic mode - yes. only show controls relevant to what you are doing right now
		and everything that isnt absolutly needed most of the time is advanced
15:53		simple example, there woul dbe no way to rename a prim you have rezzed in the basic tools
	Geenzian Scientist	so say, as a consumer, I want to retexture my couch, or change the color of it
	Drongle McMahon	S how do you tell it - now I want to do textures?
	Oriana Kuhr	i just dont see the point in having everything RIGHT THERE when you dont want it to be. Docking can even be annoying. i constantly have to move around the build menu. its so annoying
	Geenzian Scientist	click texture button, get texture and color params?
	Trinity Dejavu	then you are a builder and you can go learn the big boys build tools
	Helpless	if you're not using a scripted menu, then you're already doing something advanced, Geenz
	Motor Loon	for advanced mode however - I'd like to be able to do my "thing" with a little clicks as possible - as little switching between "menus" for get to the information or button I need
15:54	Siddean Munro	I don't know if a basic mode is really going to work to be honest. Everyone has their own basic needs
		Some people ONLY need to remove scripts and never do anything else
		while others are only interested in moving stuff around
	Braydon Randt	so we need a " break it " button then Siddean * lol*
	Siddean Munro	and others might want to texture a little but never delve any deeper
	Trinity Dejavu	somepeople need to stop telling newbies that they need to descript things
	Geenzian Scientist	I'm looking at it from a basic standpoint here; surely there's some very basic functions relating to textures that should be exposed in a simple way (I see many people who like to change the color of something all the time, even if they don't care about the texture)
15:55	Siddean Munro	I agree with that but some things still have a thousand scripts in them!
	Trinity Dejavu	you have a home in SL, you need to rez, move, rotate and remove. that's it.
	Oriana Kuhr	there should be a "shut off all scripts" button somewhere, so that people who dont know how to navigate the menus can turn them off
15:56	Geenzian Scientist	"break my object" button for the scripts issue :P
	Oriana Kuhr	people messing with the script removal, when they dont know what they are doing, can get bad
	Trinity Dejavu	basic tools will not contain anything that would be classed as descructive
		Oriana - there is no reason to ever remove scripts
	Braydon Randt	i think ... click on the texture and get the texture options available ........ such as defuse, colour .. normal and spec
	Oriana Kuhr	i know that, but some people dont
	Siddean Munro	I'm not advocating removing scripts! I am quite glad that they can't be removed from no mod stuff myself
		It was probably a bad example
	Oriana Kuhr	i always turn mine off, but i have been building since 05, so i am familiar with the tools
	Braydon Randt	i think most users "attempt" to build something at some point
15:57	Siddean Munro	Ok how about.. Some people just want to add sit animations and a sit helper to their couch
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	I get that a LOT
	Kaz Nayar	Scripts being in or out of an object should be up to the creator tbh
	Braydon Randt	if they cant build ..... a sit helper is like asking them to fly a plane
	Siddean Munro	Point is. at some stage you are going to need to delve into the build tooks
		tools
	Oriana Kuhr	but someone going to a laggy club wants to complain because they removed the scripts in their favorite boots so they wouldnt cause lag, will come to me and complain later when they cant change their textures
	Trinity Dejavu	thats very advanced siddeean - editing, inventory, operation of a complex scripted tool
	Oriana Kuhr	some tools should not be available to the open non-building public
		imho
	Trinity Dejavu	agreed
	Siddean Munro	So a basic mode isn't really all that useful beyond moving and tinting.
15:58	OctaviaJane Farquart	i think you should keep the basic building options that you have right now .. because lets be honest .. if its too basic ..they cant build and if its too advanced it will frighten a lot off .. i think what we have now is good for basic
	Helpless	this isn't about what random user may want to do a handful of times in their SL life.... it's about what a majority needs most of the time... if something falls outside of that, then there's still the "advanced (=current)" way of doing it anyway
	Geenzian Scientist	I think it may be a good idea to start compiling some user stories ourselves here!
	Trinity Dejavu	the basic mode is about NOT building
		if you build, you're already not basic
	Siddean Munro	So why are we talking about a basic mode?
15:59	Geenzian Scientist	for consumers
	OctaviaJane Farquart	im talking about givng people the opportunity too who havent before .. and if you hide all build tools then they wont attempt it
	Helpless	to edit an attachment, to move furniture, basic things
	Siddean Munro	I think it'll just unnecessarily confuse people
	Trinity Dejavu	because its actually harder to get right than an advanced mode
	Geenzian Scientist	people who know nothing about building and don't want to know
	Trinity Dejavu	teh advanced tools are pretty straightforward to cook up and were all skilled enough to knwo what we want in a tool chest
	Braydon Randt	like the sex starved 14 year olds ... * lol*
	Drongle McMahon	What happened to the official viewer basic mode? Is it still there?
	Helpless	it died a while back
16:00	Geenzian Scientist	it's gone Drongle
	Siddean Munro	no, it was deemed a bad idea and killed off
	OctaviaJane Farquart	really there are people who dont want to rez a prim out of curiosity and see what it does?
	Oriana Kuhr	ok, what about a "build mode" button? click it, and you can turn it on, and all of the build buttons would appear. click it again to hide them, and go back into basic mode
	Drongle McMahon	Is there a message in that?
	Oriana Kuhr	similar to how, you have to turn on the advanced & develop menus
	Inara Pey	Basic mode was never intended to survive.
	Trinity Dejavu	I forget the stat, but something like the majority of SL residents will never rez a plywood cube on purpose
	Kaz Nayar	if there was an option in preferences to enable the build menu.. they can be curious if they want.. quit easily
	Oriana Kuhr	they are not automatically visible when you first install a viewer, so why should the build tools be?
16:01	OctaviaJane Farquart	thats a big 'if'
	Kaz Nayar	^
	Braydon Randt	sl ...... already HAS a basic mode
	Geenzian Scientist	most consumers I run into want the following basic functionality:
	Braydon Randt	its call " dont press build"
	Geenzian Scientist	1) place a couch
		2) position something on their avatar
16:02		and occasionally:
		3) change the color of something
	Kaz Nayar	well then basic should be redefined
	Oriana Kuhr	i think movement, tint and resize are used by most. but the more detailed bits dont belong on a non-builder's viewer
	Trinity Dejavu	3* is more often - change the colour of something when it doesnt have a built in menu
	Oriana Kuhr	they want something done, and try to do it, and break something
		then it becomes the designer's fault
16:03	OctaviaJane Farquart	then dont make it mod to start with
	Kaz Nayar	and yes, that sounds like a really good basic, Greenzian lol
	Oriana Kuhr	then tinting and resize would be pointless
		just give em a move button
	Braydon Randt	if they want to change the colour
		or size
		then they are on step ONE of building
	OctaviaJane Farquart	exactly
	Trinity Dejavu	move my thing, move my cam to see my thing, all done. omg put it back
	Geenzian Scientist	I would see a basic mode as a padded cell kind of deal; if you need to do any of the following, then basic is for you and you won't obliterate that fancy no-copy thing you just bought in the process! otherwise, use advanced I suppose
16:04	Oriana Kuhr	its impossible to give one and take another in sl
		either give them the tools, or dont
	Braydon Randt	give EVERYONE the tolls to create , as Sl is a place that the users make the content
	Trinity Dejavu	give them basic tools and then expose a way to get the advanced. that extra step
	Braydon Randt	if you dumb it down
		then hell yeah .. its the sims
	OctaviaJane Farquart	here here Braydon
	Siddean Munro	Anyway, I thought the point of these meetings was to improve the content creation tools, not discuss basic mode for people who will never use it?
	Trinity Dejavu	ok look simple buttons .. oh wow,, thats complicated, back away
16:05	Braydon Randt	and i would rather cut my knob off with a spoon than go and play sims with 8 year olds
	Oriana Kuhr	everyone HAS the tools. but a good chunk of them dont know what they do, THAT is the problem
		"oops, i returned everyones things, because i wanted to return this box"
	Siddean Munro	That is their problem, I would argue
	Trinity Dejavu	the problem as faced now is that the existing tool set is cramped, fractured over several viewers and in some cases not fit for purpose
	Siddean Munro	learn how to use the UI
	Oriana Kuhr	things that we know how to use, are a completely different language to others
	Trinity Dejavu	when was the last time anyone here build on the stock LL viewer
	OctaviaJane Farquart	and if you take them away they will never give it a go or try or even realise that there is an option to have a go .. wow rez a prim ... shit .. i can do stuff witht hat too
16:06	Drongle McMahon	yesterday
	Oriana Kuhr	i use it for more accurate mesh uploads. thats it..lol
	Geenzian Scientist	with where Trinity's idea is going, it seems like we're covering a single facet of the general idea here
	Siddean Munro	every day
	Kadah	The basic build tools should be a gateway towards actual building.
	Braydon Randt	" i cant get my cock to fit ................. and by the way can i borrow 100L till tommorow"
	Oriana Kuhr	im not saying take them away, im saying hide them
	Braydon Randt	they ARE hidden .... with a build button
16:07	Oriana Kuhr	not like that
	Trinity Dejavu	no they arent
		right cick, edit
		oh shit, build tools
	Oriana Kuhr	what I am suggesting is, hide the unnecessary buttons, but have the ability to turn ON the options
	Braydon Randt	so ... you are saying ... that because they are able to edit ... then they need to be mummied
	Drongle McMahon	...I wonder what they do....
	Oriana Kuhr	but the build button
	Braydon Randt	and protected from creativity
		OOOOOHHHH BAAAD CREATIVITY!!!
	OctaviaJane Farquart	talk about closed shop
	Kaz Nayar	not sure how brainstorming became an argument here
	Oriana Kuhr	i mean something that hides build, and script info, and all the stuff builders use
16:08		click once, you see the build stuff. click again, it goes away
	Geenzian Scientist	Hi! I'm a simple user. I totally need to know what the description of an object is when I go to edit my L$200 hair.
	Trinity Dejavu	it will be plenty obvious you can build andc create in SL - the goal is about tools for the task at hane
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	something like this little box... http://cl.ly/image/3R2M241U132M
		which already exists.... until you choose to hit that arrow
	Geenzian Scientist	now, who thinks a regular user needs to know the description of their hair?
	Kadah	The coolest part about SL is that you can edit things, stuff is not just a static model like in other things.
16:09	Trinity Dejavu	dont eve need to rename it
	Oriana Kuhr	SL has thrived on user content. believe me, i have been here since 04, i KNOW how importent user content is. but not everyone builds, so they dont NEED the build stuff to be in all of their menus
	Geenzian Scientist	for that matter, who thinks every user needs to know what the inventory of their recently bought pair of shoes is?
	OctaviaJane Farquart	soo nobody ever learnt from making those mistakes when they were noobs?
	Oriana Kuhr	i dont, geenz
		if they didnt make it, they shouldnt be able to access the innards
16:10		unless its a packed box
	Braydon Randt	police state ...... charming
	Trinity Dejavu	I spent money, I bought some hair, somehow it got broken.. fuck SL
	Geenzian Scientist	which we have the "Open..." option for
	OctaviaJane Farquart	seriously
	Oriana Kuhr	yup, exactly
	Drongle McMahon	I need to know how many triangles it has.
	Oriana Kuhr	when you buy gear in an MMORPG, you can take it to an NPC to tint it.....why do people here need to do more than that?
	Trinity Dejavu	then your desires as a power user are about as far removed from a consumers as its possible to get
16:11	Geenzian Scientist	knowing something's render cost could be a good idea for consumers
	Vaalith Jinn	i'm not sure why we're talking about hiding tools from people. if someone clicks 'edit', it's quite likely they're trying to edit. if someone clicks the 'build' button, i would assume they're trying to build. and speaking of object inventory - i'd really like to know if an object i just bought contains a whole lot of unnecessary scripts. and it would be -good- if regular users were exposed to that, and were aware that some content creators still put too many scripts in their items.
	Motor Loon	kinda agree with vaalith... we DO have then "Open" function in the menu too for those that just wants to see whats inside the box they bought
16:12	OctaviaJane Farquart	soo that is what always made sl special isnt it ..
	Helpless	if you want content creators to use less scripts, then punish content creators for using too many scripts... smacking consumers around with it isn't useful because they don't understand and do not care
	Oriana Kuhr	aka, the "turn off scripts" button. not menu dropdown, but an exposed button
	Trinity Dejavu	Vaalith - Unnecassaey scriupts - come on - you cant even see what is in a script how can you possible determine what is necassary or not beyond guesswork based in filenames - how on earth do you expect that to mean ANYTHING to a non technical user
	Braydon Randt	I want others to learn how to build ... THAT is why i do tutorials ... if i wanted people to pay me to fix the shit they broke .... i would be a plumber
	Vaalith Jinn	Trinity, here's a fact of life for you: nearly everything that ever needs to be done with a script, can be done with one script per whole object.
16:13	Trinity Dejavu	I am well aware
	Kadah	Its the "Build" button on the LL viewer not part of default toolbar setup?
	Geenzian Scientist	pretty soon we'll be wrapping up the meeting, so let's do this
	Vaalith Jinn	so yes, there are still many items being sold with a lot of very unnecessary scripts and users must be aware of it.
	Trinity Dejavu	seriously. no. users should never even care
	Oriana Kuhr	im not talking about a build button to open/close the build menu. im talking about a button to change the viewer between build mode and basic mode
		it would change what is shown in the drop down menus
16:14	Siddean Munro	So should we design a whole UI based on a bunch of legacy content?
	Braydon Randt	no ....
	Geenzian Scientist	right now from the looks of it, there's a lot of ideas flying about regarding why have a basic mode, why should the basic mode conform around these needs, why not have this instead of this, and so on
	Oriana Kuhr	if people just want to walk, buy, chat, or whatever, and not build, why do they need build options in the dropdowns?
	Trinity Dejavu	basically what we need is user stories
	Braydon Randt	let um rott lookin like homer simpson
	Geenzian Scientist	right Trinity, just what I was about to get to
16:15		so let's focus on "as a Builder, I want to..." and "as a Resident, I want to..." kind of user stories relevant to the build UI
	Trinity Dejavu	user stories that cover both technical high skill activites and consumer tasks
16:16	Geenzian Scientist	we have two distinct categories here; and going forward, we can come up with ideas to satisfy these user stories instead of tossing every discussion into one pot here and hoping for the best
		does that sound good to everyone?
	Motor Loon	nods
16:17	Drongle McMahon	I'm not convinced it's two categories. I think thetre is a continuum of technical skill and interest.
	Trinity Dejavu	then feel free to go remake the UI and let us know when you come up with something
16:18	Geenzian Scientist	well, if we can it may be a good idea to design the UI to "lead" users into things, instead of pushing it up in their face
	Drongle McMahon	However, that doesn't argue against the two menu state options.
16:19	Geenzian Scientist	now, we're a couple of minutes over our time limit, so lets go ahead and wrap up here
		let's focus on user stories first here, then design something to satisfy those user stories
16:20	Trinity Dejavu	I dont want to come over as blunt, but at the end of the day there are a very very small number of people who will have to put a lot of work in to make anything actually happen. what we want to do is make sure all the bases are covered before even starting something of this size
	Geenzian Scientist	this gives more context to conversation, this gives more motivation to whatever designs that are produced, and it helps keep things organized, alright everyone?
	Oriana Kuhr	its like, why i do texture change options on my shoes...why overload your inventory with 12 pairs of the same shoes in different colors, when you can just have one pair and a HUD? why have unnecessary menu buttons you may never use? the SL interface is intimidating for a new person, until they get used to it. why force them to navigate through overloaded menus if they never intend to build? making it hidden until they want to try building, seems like a good idea to me
		less clutter
16:21	Trinity Dejavu	there are clearly two different sides to building, so please please please. user stories
	Braydon Randt	edit/build kinda puts that into force anyway
	Kadah	There is a difference between smart UI design and childprooding :P
16:22		proofing*
		floor typing = bad
	Trinity Dejavu	If you're a phoenix user you're not allowed to talk about UI design :P
	Geenzian Scientist	good point Kadah, and on that note we'll end today's meeting
	Oriana Kuhr	hey, im a mom. im all for childproofing sl
	Kadah
	Siddean Munro	Ok here's the thing. None of us are basic users anymore. We don't really know what "Basic mode" people would want to have. So why don't we ask them to write their own user stories??
	OctaviaJane Farquart	good lawd
16:23	Kadah	I'm out of here. bye
	Isla Gealach-Nayar	i think that's a brilliant idea
	OctaviaJane Farquart	even shildren have to grow up
	Braydon Randt	that a point i do agree on .. NON of us here ... can know what a basic user would want
	OctaviaJane Farquart	and on that note im out
		thanks ..it was informative
		:/
	Oriana Kuhr	all i am saying, is why make it overwhelming?
16:24		too much info at once, is never good
		hiding what isnt used, but leaving it accessable, is good
		its not that hard to understand
		im not talking about taking anything away, except the clutter
	Geenzian Scientist	we could debate the issue all day
		but let's continue this next week shall we?
16:25		thanks to everyone who came out!