Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 3rd, 2012 Meeting

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15:06  Geenz Spad  so, welcome everyone to the first content creation improvement meeting!
15:07    these meetings are informal meetings, with the intention of coming up with ideas to improve the state of content creation for second life
15:08  Siddean Munro  Hi Oz :)
  Geenz Spad  the idea is for people to discuss their ideas in a collaborative environment, and if everyone can agree on an idea, that idea will hopefully be made into a proposal at some point for Linden Lab, and prototypes demonstrating that functionality will also eventually be submitted as well
15:09    moving on, the first item on the agenda:
    Educating users on efficiency, and Linden Lab setting building standards. (Stickman)
15:10    this is an interesting one
    care to elaborate Stickman?
  Stickman Ingmann  Sure.
15:12    A lot of content creators come into Second Life without any prior knowledge of how 3D rendering works. Video game companies usually establish a "polygon budget" and a "texture memory budget." At any time, no more than said amount can be displayed on the screen, or it overwhelms the console, or system that the game is being developed for. Second Life has no set budgets or limits. There's no information about the average or minimum system used to access SL. Content creators have no direction on what can and can't be done in Second Life.
    Sometimes this isn't a problem. Sometimes it results in horrible, wasteful creations, that don't need to be so complex and expensive.
15:13  Geenz Spad  so basically, you'd like to educate content creators on making more efficient content?
  Asha  That is seriously needed now that more mesh is hitting the grid.
  Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  I really agree with this. I've seen some things made in mesh that could have been SO much lower land impact, and with smaller res textures without losing quality
  Stickman Ingmann  Yes. Get information about the kinds of systems people use, what they're capable of handling. What viewers people use, what features people have enabled.

[15:13] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey

15:14  Asha  Like boots with 60,000 triangles. o.o
  Lindsay Pinelli  thank you Siddean xD
  Geenz Spad  well, I don't think LL will be direclty setting a standard that everyone will need to work around, but I think it's worth discussing ideas for what a standard should be
  Stickman Ingmann  I've got an old Jira somewhat related to the issue, too: About collecting opt-in stats, so content creators know what kinds of system and features they're creating for.
  Braydon Randt  sorry to bring up a chestnut .... but refing build behavour is all well in good , but games use nomals and specular materials systems ... sl can barely squeeze mesh out of its bones
  Geenz Spad  as more of an informal standard that people should be working within
15:15  Siddean Munro  Rather than a standard, what about we propose some documentation on good v bad?
  Geenz Spad  Braydon: we'll touch on that one a bit later
    Siddean's idea could work
  Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  Even if it's just getting the information and education out there, letting people know what they can achieve without going crazy with polys
  Crash Uladstron  I'm with Sid,I think a standard is unrealistic
  Siddean Munro  I think there's a bit of guesswork going on from people not in the professional biz, so to speak
  Crash Uladstron  but a page on the wiki describing what to aim for
  Stickman Ingmann  Geenz, I'm looking for cold hard facts. If someone wants to cater to the top-end systems only? Let them. If they want to create something that even the lowest system that connects to SL can see perfectly? Then they can do that. But right now, it's all shooting in the dark. We have no information.
15:16  Asha  Yes, the point is that some people have no idea what the best practices are. It would be nice for LL to provide an official word on it.
  Siddean Munro  If there was some documentation specifically related to this, it might help people get more efficient builds
  Caine Munro  Real problem to me seems to be financial incentive: If you make a low-poly item that's well done and within a reasonable budget, someone who comes along and blows any poly budget out of the water will look a lot better in advertisements and end up selling more items on marketplace and such.
  Braydon Randt  LL have the policy ... that you can create what you want as long as you are prepared to pay the upload cost for bad modelling ,. the user on the other hand ... suffers the results
  Martin RJ  Braydon there have been mirrors, once, but Windlight broke them
  Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  The problem with catering to one end or another is that tech is getting better as such a rapid rate, targetting a specific tier of tech wouldn't be viable, there'd be a replacement a month later.
  Geenz Spad  maybe we should look at from more of a "if you want to target this group of people, you should work around these constraints" point of view
    that's generally how the game industry looks at it
15:17  Oz Linden  The problem is that the range is too wide for documentation to be of much use to you. If you can imagine it, someone connects to SL with it (and some you probably would never guess). No one system time is even close to more than a low single digit percentage.
  Geenz Spad  for example, for high-end PC games, typically a 10,000 triangle character mesh is "okay" for a high detail mesh
15:18  Crash Uladstron  You can't tho because people interract,you target something for powerfull computer owners and their friends with low end computer comes by their 2343545 triangle place
  Geenz Spad  that's fair enough, but this is where we start looking at the different "classes" of hardware
  Braydon Randt  so are we ultimately catering to the lowest comming demoninator ?
15:19  Geenz Spad  not at all
  Braydon Randt  common*
  Raz Welles  I suppose if you wanted to be harsh you could let a region owner dictate how many polys and textures a person is going to be alotted on entering a sim, I'm not a big fan of that idea though :x
  Siddean Munro  What would help solve this issue is bump maps ;) Just as an aside
  Braydon Randt  it would help some .... not all
  Raz Welles  Normal maps would certainly help
  Asha  Normal maps ftw
  Geenz Spad  well, to be fair, custom bump maps do help substantially
15:20  'Kota Buck  But would be great
  Geenz Spad  which I guess kind of blends into #3
  Stickman Ingmann  Raz, the last thing I want is hard limits like that. LL's been doing a lot of work on making a technical solution for "lag." Letting people create their excessive products, and then trying to make the system handle displaying them with minimal lag. I believe a better solution is information, education. Tell content creators what's reasonable.
  Braydon Randt  the useability of them is not in question , but only certain users have the ability to create such maps ... others .. use templates etc and dont have access
  Raz Welles  Stick: and thus I mentioned at the end I don't like the idea either
  Caine Munro  Keep in mind though this isn't fundamentally a tech problem - it is a social one. Without creator incentive to make low(ish) poly items, it'll never be a priority when making new items.
15:21  Raz Welles  I think Caine is right
  Stickman Ingmann  So Oz. You said things are all over the chart. But that doesn't make the information useless. It just means that there are a lot of demographs.
  Raz Welles  though I have seen people do top notch popular stuff with single texture maps zoned
  Caine Munro  A way to incentivise low poly creation would be to make it really clear at purchase time what sort of lag the item 'could' cause. Which is it's own enormous can of worms.
  Geenz Spad  I think it'd help if content creators knew what kind of hardware classes are the most common
  Raz Welles  any way you slice it, the materials project has a lot to offer
  Asha  And yet, som have no frame of reference of what low poly means. That is why there needs to be education from an official channel.
15:22  Raz Welles  You could save texture space baking your lighting and reusing repeating textures
  Braydon Randt  im sure theres some users .. who want to access SL .. with a computer no more powerfull than an Iphone
  Stickman Ingmann  I don't want to spend the whole time arguing about what information is and isn't useful for content creators to have. Can we move on to the materials project? I'd really like to hear more about that.
15:23  Raz Welles  Yeah what's up on materials
  Geenz Spad  well, education is one problem that we'd have to find ways to fix amongst our selves, and we definitely won't be figuring out how to fix that problem in a single meeting
  Braydon Randt  well .... cload party have them ... SL doesnt .... hense the migration
15:24  Geenz Spad  so, materials!
  Tyr Rozenblum  I was going to say that, well sort of. Cloud party has bumps/materials/etc.
  Oz Linden  Think about what metrics you could expose in the viewer to help people understand what contributes to costs
  Braydon Randt  again ... we are catering to lowest common denominator
  Tyr Rozenblum  not to compare i know the intention isnt to talk about other games. But its browser based and will be able to eventually run on tablets
  'Kota Buck  I'm not sure you can really call it a migration to cloud party at this point.
  Geenz Spad  I know plenty of things about materials.
  Tyr Rozenblum  definatly not a migration lol
  Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  It's not a migration, it's not even out of it's first week.
15:25  Geenz Spad  first off, a solution has been proposed to LL
  sachi Vixen  I don't think bumpers persay will make people migratebut they are certainly going tohelp content there look classy. Add that to a genius, simple UI and you have a potential winner.
  Stickman Ingmann  More about materials, less about Cloud Party.
  Siddean Munro  Offtopic people, can we get back to the materials? :)
  Braydon Randt  thats my point .... i want materials .... more than pathfinders ... or being able to view on a calcualtor
  Tyr Rozenblum  I was using the comparison to say that it is possible to get it and people on dated computers still run alright.
  Martin RJ  lol Braydon
15:26  sachi Vixen  That was bump maps not car bumpers

[15:26] AshaAsha chuckles at Braydon

  Geenz Spad  the solution proposed was a collaboration between myself and Ash Qin
    what did make it into the proposal is such:
    custom bump maps
    custom specular maps
15:27  Braydon Randt  we have a great system with second life ... and i want to see it kick competitors asses ... i want it to have the technology that was available at least 10 years ago ... so not having a materials system is not really acceptable in this day and age
  Geenz Spad  and a couple of other things I won't quite get into as of yet
  Martin RJ  how'd you make that backwards-compatible, Geenz?
  Geenz Spad  but what I will say, is progress is being made, and hopefully there'll be more information soon

[15:27] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey

15:28  Raz Welles  Sorry I want to get something cleared up for myself, am I correct in assuming we're using bump maps and normal maps as interchangeable terms here? I thought bump maps referred to single dimension heights while normal maps can account for lighting in 3 dimensions
  Siddean Munro  Is there any way we can keep tabs on it?
  Asha  Is this project for a specific viewer?
  Stickman Ingmann  So you told me you had more information than anyone else on materials, and all you're going to say is "progress is being made, but we can't tell you what?"
  Geenz Spad  Asha: this project is for the official viewer, but of course other TPVs will benefit directly from it as such

[15:28] AshaAsha waves to Phadrus. ^^

  Asha  Ok thanks Geenz
15:29  Braydon Randt  aso bottom line .. no BS ... is a materials system being develped ?
  Caine Munro  Stick: No point promising things that aren't certain yet.
  Geenz Spad  Braydon: work is being done, and the overall hope is that we'll be able to show you something soon :)
  Braydon Randt  terms like " hope" .... come along with " possible"
15:30  Typhaon Nishi  is there a place for updates on this project as Siddean asked previously?
  Siddean Munro  That's more promising than nothing is happening at all :)
  Braydon Randt  yet ... what i want to know is " yes its being done..." sorry to sound like yoda yere ... but " there is no try .... only do"
  Asha  I'm glad to hear someone is working on adding bump and specular maps.
  Toast Bard  haha
15:31  Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy  There's definitely progress at least, that's good to hear
  Geenz Spad  unfortunately, right now updates will be coming as things are completed; of course there's some things I can't talk about here *yet*, but please understand I'm working as hard as I can to pretty up Second Life however I can :)
    and materials is most definitely a large item on my to-do list
  Oz Linden  I'll try to de-mystify a bit.... Geenz is being careful
15:32  Braydon Randt  come on OZ .. educate me
    by my light
    guide me
  Oz Linden  They've been working on a proposal, and we've been looking at it very closely
  Braydon Randt  so 3 years then ?
15:33  Siana Gearz  why is the process not more open than that?
  Oz Linden  doing it would require some server side support, of course, and we've been trying to refine the goals to be something we can get done
  Stickman Ingmann  Heh. Why is everything in SL so closed now? They used to tell us what broke and why and how they fixed it when the servers went down.
  Martin RJ  because some TPV-devs would jump on it right at this very moment and implement features that aren't finished yet - I believe
  Siana Gearz  >.<
15:34  Caine Munro  As an unrelated developer talking: It's not more open than that because there's not a lot of point to have non-technical input on a very technical implementation and Braydon - where do you think code comes from?
  Martin RJ  not you :P
  Siana Gearz  Caine, well, some code could come from ME but i feel excluded from the get go.
  Stickman Ingmann  So what's the scope of the materials project? Bumpmap, specular, normal maps? More or less than that?
  Braydon Randt  allthough i accept and agree, that rushing forward can mean a lot of clean up for the mistakes that get dragged in , i can also say ... that the overall server side issues asside ... the content creators want it ... they need it ... it will reduce load on the servers with reduced model cost ... ergo its a win win
15:35  Geenz Spad  for a version 1 release, more or less that Stickman
  Oz Linden  that's still not nearly decided, Stickman
  Braydon Randt  ive got a degree in real time systems programming from Brighton Uni ... so im not exactl spethal
  Geenz Spad  but we're still determining what will be in a version 1 release, but I promise everyone here, that the moment I can say something more, I will
15:36  Stickman Ingmann  And you can't give us a time? "Within three years" or "before Christmas" or any of that?
  Braydon Randt  thats my question .. just knowing that it is on the horizon is good to know
  Geenz Spad  what I will say regarding timeline is more speculation at this point, so please don't take this as a promise in any form
  Braydon Randt  as " maybe and possibly" is a no
  Geenz Spad  I can't stress that enough
15:37  Stickman Ingmann  I understand time estimates. I would hope everyone here is a content creator and has blown through their own deadlines.
  Geenz Spad  but my hope is, we'll have something shown off to the community, and something for people to be testing by the end of the year, or sometime early next year
  Stickman Ingmann  That's promising, at least.
15:38  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  whats this for?
  Geenz Spad  this isn't something I have any intention of dragging out any longer than it needs to be
  Raz Welles  Stick: I don't have deadlines anymore, I've blown so far past them they've become the undead-lines
  Geenz Spad  Tank: materials
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  more spcifically?

[15:38] Oz LindenOz Linden has to leave...

    tc oz
  Siddean Munro  Ok oz, thanks for coming
  Stickman Ingmann  Thanks for coming, Oz.
15:39    Not too much time left, should we move on to the next topic?
  Typhaon Nishi  cheers Oz
  Geenz Spad  anyways, moving on to our next agenda item
    Discussing morph targets for deforming mesh. (Siddean Munro)
  Stickman Ingmann  I can fill up the end of the meeting with a number of Jiras about content creation tools I pulled up.
  Martin RJ  Bye Oz
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  sorry I was late, i was told this started at 3:30
  Siddean Munro  We have a third item on the agenda
  Geenz Spad  Stickman: by all means
  Siddean Munro  4th, I should say
  Geenz Spad  but yeah, so, morph targets
  Stickman Ingmann  First, Siddean's morph targets. Is that a thing? An actual possibility? I was told we were getting custom bones, no morph targets. Ever.
15:40  Raz Welles  Yeah we were initially shut down on morph targets
    a solid loud resounding "no"
  Geenz Spad  I've had a couple of conversations regarding this
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  wheres the agenda?
  Geenz Spad
  Siddean Munro
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  thx
15:41  Geenz Spad  from what I'm hearing, it's not a definite "no"
    but there are however, some things that need to happen before that on LL's side
  Raz Welles  totally listening now
  Stickman Ingmann  Do you have a list of the things that need to happen on their side, or is it just a nebulous excuse for them to finish without accountability?
15:43    Any news on custom skeletons, or have those not been mentioned?
  Geenz Spad  I don't have a 100%% definite list of things that need to happen, but I have an overall gist; there's a few backend things that will need to happen, and there's a few file format things that'll need to happen; some of it a viewer developer can handle, the rest of it LL has to handle
    those haven't been mentioned to me
  Siddean Munro  Is there a jira or proposal doco for this?
  Stickman Ingmann  So it sounds like we're more likely to get morph targets than custom skeletons at this point.
15:44  Geenz Spad  so anyways, back on the subject of morph targets
  Tyr Rozenblum  Something I wondered and Oz, or anyone directly involved might be able to answer this best. Something that concerned me (even though i was and am one of the ones pushing for it)
  Geenz Spad  let's discuss how morph targets would effect content creators
  Tyr Rozenblum  is what about mesh out now. We know with the deformer its atleast useable. But would the new 'cbones" being introduced back in, effect everything out on the grid to date?
15:45  Geenz Spad  from my understanding regarding cBones, they're additional bones you can optionally rig your mesh to
  Siddean Munro  You would probably have to reweight your mesh
  Stickman Ingmann  Morph targets would make up for all of the things the skeleton can't handle. Wiggling toes, bending fingers, facial expressions. You could even use it for slider-base face customization on custom mesh avatars.
  Geenz Spad  if they're not rigged, your mesh shouldn't really deform around them, but I'd like to have RedPoly discuss how that'd effect content creators
15:46  Siddean Munro  Custom morph targets would be my personal preference
15:47  Geenz Spad  so anyways, morph targets; for those of you who don't really know what these are, they'd basically enable a content creator to "paint" how they want their meshes to look if they adjusted a slider

[15:47] AshaAsha would prefer morph targets as well.

15:48    so you could for example, have a muscular morph target, or a slim morph target, or even a fat morph target; and all content creators would have to do is sculpt these shapes out to how they feel the final result should look
  Stickman Ingmann  I want anything. If I can't get custom skeletons, I'll make due with morph targets. Both have some serious strengths and drawbacks, but something is better than nothing.
    Especially considering we don't have "UUID flipping" on meshes.
  Raz Welles  The most powerful combination would be the ability to dictate animation position and morph target position in a single llsetprimitiveparamsfast
15:49  Geenz Spad  now really, at its core, there's two different questions that should be discussed concerning morph targets
  Siddean Munro  Morph targets would add more work, but about as much work as adding and weighting to extra bones, methinks. From a builder's perspective
15:50  Geenz Spad  the content creator facing question is, how should the content creators work with this? what kind of work flow would be ideal?
  Crash Uladstron  we're doing a lot of work as things are now anyway
  Siddean Munro  Yep
  Anouk Spot  yeah
  Asha  No kidding
  Typhaon Nishi  (insert affirmative response here)
  Geenz Spad  I imagine being able to sculpt how a mesh should deform would be a god send :P
  Raz Welles  from a time perspective, I do like the no-extra-work nature of Qarl's deformer, if you could bake that server side like you bake textures I think that would be pretty ace
15:51  Siddean Munro  could the morph target information be included in the SLM file for upload?
  Crash Uladstron  it would be yes
  Braydon Randt  trying to work within a system ... with still allow existing content .. just newer content will have the new finctionality , wether you choose to update your content is a personal choice
  Stickman Ingmann  I'm not sure I understand the question. We make various morph targets for a mesh, we probably name them something specific in the file before we upload them. Then we access them via script or some new UI element to slide the mesh between the morphs.
  Raz Welles  siddean: you shoudl be able to
    Morphs are just the same set of verts with different positions, and then interpolated between the two
  Geenz Spad  Siddean: with a few extensions to the format, yes
  Siddean Munro  Like.. just thinking aloud, morph targets or shape keys with the same name as the SL morph targets they are related to
15:52  Raz Welles  it's a linear interpolation so it can only really go in a straight line if it's between two morphs
    though multiple morphs at one time may let you correct that
  Geenz Spad  Raz: we'll focus on the technical side of the conversation on the next meeting
  Raz Welles  ok
  Geenz Spad  since we only have 8 minutes left
  Raz Welles  d'oh
15:53  Geenz Spad  so anyways, I guess we could do something like, specifying groups that correspond to different shape sliders on the existing avatar mesh
    and if you want your mesh to morph around those parameters, you simply add your morph target to that group in whatever 3D application you use
15:54  Siddean Munro  That's what makes sense to me
  Raz Welles  This might be out of bounds but, maybe you could dynamically generate the set of sliders and UI by reading the file? It would mean a new floater though
  Geenz Spad  that would be awesome
  Raz Welles  Then you wouldn't be restricted to what's in the viewer
  Geenz Spad  but right now, we have to look at it from what would likely make it into a version one release
15:55    and the most obvious application for this would be an alternative to the mesh deformer to enable aritsts to specify how something should deform instead of leaving it up to the mesh deformer
15:56  Asha  And the Lindens are open to the morph target possibility now? They were dead set against it before.
  Stickman Ingmann  I'm having trouble understand your talk of mesh deforming and morph targets. These sound like different things.
  Siddean Munro  Would it be possible to have both systems side by side?
  Raz Welles  Morphs with LSL interface, newbies wouldn't be able to create sliders but plenty of people here are battle hardened to make theri own UI's
  Stickman Ingmann  Asha, that's what we just heard, yes. No word on custom skeletons, their "real" solution, and morph targets are a possibility.
  Raz Welles  Just another random thought heh
  Geenz Spad  I will say I haven't heard a "no", and I've heard that it would be cool if something were to be started, so we'll just have to see what happens
  Raz Welles  *their
15:57  Asha  Ah, I see.
  Raz Welles  gotcha
  Typhaon Nishi  maybe in time there could be an option to have the default deformer or have some kind of custom deformation
  Asha  Well, I guess that is an improvement over the solid no in the past.
  Stickman Ingmann  I don't know if everyone is on the same page here. "morph target" is a very specific 3D modeling term.
  Siddean Munro  We are on the right page Stick
  Raz Welles  morph target == shape key == blend shape
  Geenz Spad  Stickman: we are, it's more how they're being utilized
15:58  Stickman Ingmann  You create a model, say a face, and a second model, say the same face with the eyelids closed. Then you can "slide" between the two. They need to have the same number of faces, etc, and it interpolates the vertex positions between the two, depending on how far you push the slider.
  Geenz Spad  in this context, as an alternative to a solution that's been said to have sometimes spotty results
  Siddean Munro  That's what we're talking about
  Crash Uladstron  yes Stick
  Stickman Ingmann  Right, but I heard other people saying things that was confusing me. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Not saying it for those that already know.
  Siddean Munro  s an alternative to the deformer which calculates the distance the mesh has to float about the avvie skin
15:59    With no creator control
  Geenz Spad  right
  Crash Uladstron  I do think a default deformer needs to be in place as well as this
  Stickman Ingmann  So are we talking about custom morph targets, or are we talking about hooking into the appearance settings and their morph targets?
16:00  Geenz Spad  Stickman: a bit of both
  Typhaon Nishi  yeah like a have a tick box option to use the "default deformer" or "custom deformations"
  Siddean Munro  For now we're talking about using the existing ones, but someone raised the question of customs
  Geenz Spad  in a perfect world, we'd have custom bones, custom morph targets, and similar
    and an interface to expose the various settings for all o this
  Raz Welles  and a better scripting language
  Geenz Spad  :P
  Braydon Randt  i want cake
  Raz Welles  xP
16:01  Geenz Spad  I still can't believe M shelved C# scripting :P
  Asha  Well, it would be nice if residents can come to a consensus on what they want the most...first.
    They won't do them all.
  Stickman Ingmann  What I want would be custom morph targets. Unrelated to anything SL already has.
  Braydon Randt  mesh people want materials
    clothing makers want materials and deformers
  Geenz Spad  honestly, I'd support Qarl's mesh deformer being an "easy" solution for those who don't really mind what the outcome is
  Siddean Munro  Right, Braydon :)
  Braydon Randt  non mesh makers .. want flexies, larger textures and no mesh
  Raz Welles  Yes for clothing, I think people would want to spend more time designing new clothes and less time weight painting
16:02  MartinRJ Fayray  I want hyperjump xD
  Crash Uladstron  morph targets is a good solution however entry level creators would need a default deformer imo
  Braydon Randt  and i .. personally ... still want cake
  Geenz Spad  I agree with Crash
  Martin RJ  I want Braydon's cake
  Siddean Munro  Yep, it's be nice to have both options
  Geenz Spad  looks like we'll be going a bit over our time limit discussing the content creation side of things
  Siddean Munro  sorry for typos, my fingers are frozen :/
  Siana Gearz  morph targets don't eat away on number of bones that a vertex can be affected by.
16:03  Geenz Spad  which is fine, we'll just pick up on the dev side of things next meeting
  Asha  The thing is...if you can build a model, you can build a morph. There isn't a huge skill jump there.
  Raz Welles  I think you could sneak in morph targets and just offer an LSL api to its interpolation position initially
  Martin RJ  hyperjump is a great method for 'content creation' on my own grid!
  Siana Gearz  two are simply not enough in the pelvic area.
  Techplex Engineer  I'd like a better prim align tool that doesn't just use square bounding boxes
  Stickman Ingmann  What Raz said.
    That's version 1.
  Raz Welles  yes
  Martin RJ  second Techplex
  Crash Uladstron  If you can build a model you can build a morph agreed,you're udnerestimating the amount of people using cloth simulators etc
  Braydon Randt  actually .. i want one system ... thats consistant , so i can learn it .. and mvoe on
  Martin RJ  and I want a better build-grid
16:04  Raz Welles  So it's come to this
  Toast Bard  speaking of cake when will we be talking about the alpha glitch with rigged mesh?
  Asha  You can make a morph even easier if you use most cloth simulators, especially Marvelous Designer which a number of people are using.
16:05  Braydon Randt  like you eh ash *pokes her side*
16:06  Crash Uladstron  that is true however many have a very low understanding of anything beyond making a model and copying weights,not that I'm defending them or anything lol
  Stickman Ingmann  Alright, I'm heading out. Thanks for the information, Geenz.
  Geenz Spad  I think that goes more into the education bit :P
    but anyways
    thanks for coming out to the meeting everyone
  Asha  lol
  Geenz Spad  we'll be picking up where we left off with next tuesday's meeting