Doc Team/2008-05-23

[13:58]  You: Hi Becky. Welcome back!
[13:58]  Becky Pippen: Hiya Jeremy
[13:58]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
[13:58]  You: Hrm. Every week I come here and someone's changed the textures on my chair :-P
[13:58]  Becky Pippen: ut oh!
[13:59]  You: It's just going to be me again this week, I think. Jon's off becoming a rockstar on the path to superstardom.
[13:59]  Becky Pippen: he's ... what?!
[14:00]  You: If I remember what he said, I think he's setting up with his band to play a very important show. :-)
[14:00]  Becky Pippen: I didn't know he was musical :-)
[14:01]  You: Oh yeah, he's fantastic! As a solo performer, he's got some great modern folk-style songs, and his band sounds pretty good, too.
[14:01]  Becky Pippen: oh wow
[14:01]  Becky Pippen: does he perform in SL?
[14:02]  You: I don't think he performs in SL regularly, but we Lindens did a sort of live performance experiment with ourselves, and he was one of the performers.
[14:02]  Becky Pippen: how fun! Are you musical, too?
[14:02]  You: Heh. Not particularly. I can play clarinet well enough to be in a college marching band :-P
[14:02]  You: At least, I could a few years ago.
[14:03]  You: Hi Kooky. Welcome back!
[14:03]  Becky Pippen: that's more talent than most of us :-)
[14:03]  Becky Pippen: Hi Kooky
[14:03]  Kooky Jetaime: Bowl of Jello playin hookie again?
[14:03]  You: It's just me here again this week, yep. Jon's off doing important life-changing work.
[14:03]  Kooky Jetaime: hehe we were just talking about talent... or actually talentless hacks at Pathfinders
[14:03]  You: Oh?
[14:04]  Kooky Jetaime: Yes
[14:04]  Kooky Jetaime: Either of you a Sci Fi fan?
[14:04]  You: You could say that.
[14:04]  Becky Pippen: somewhat
[14:04]  Kooky Jetaime: Keanu Reeves
[14:04]  Kooky Jetaime: Johnny Mneumonic
[14:05]  Kooky Jetaime waits to see if I hear boos
[14:05]  You: Eh. The movie wasn't anything like the short story.
[14:05]  You: Hi Tegg. Welcome back!
[14:05]  Kooky Jetaime: Some hack thinks he can play Klatuu
[14:05]  Kooky Jetaime: for the remake of The Day the Earth Stood Still
[14:05]  Kooky Jetaime: you know, I have to wonder, how can they improve upon that classic?
[14:05]  You: "I come in peace. Whoa."
[14:06]  Kooky Jetaime: ROFLOL
[14:06]  Tegg Bode: lol thx, that movie is following us :)
[14:06]  Kooky Jetaime: Dude, the lights are off.
[14:06]  Kooky Jetaime: Naa, I brought it with me
[14:06]  You: Anyway, Tegg, it's just me here again this week. Jon had to leave work early so he could be a rock star.
[14:06]  Kooky Jetaime: If this UFO goes less than 186,000 miles per second, its gonna Explodeee!
[14:07]  Kooky Jetaime: *Couldn't help it... hehh
[14:07]  Tegg Bode: Lol, Karoke with new secretary chicks?
[14:07]  You: Better; a big show with his real band :-)
[14:08]  Tegg Bode: Hmm as long as he has groupies I suppose , we'll let him play in his imaginary RL world :)
[14:09]  Kooky Jetaime: Hahahaha
[14:09]  Tegg Bode: He just has to be sure their SL™ avatars are as good as their RL ones :)
[14:09]  You: Heh. That'll be cool, the day an exclusively SL musician treats us to a RL performance. I think it's been done a few times, already.
[14:10]  You: I'm happy to keep chatting about random stuff if you guys want, but I should ask if you have any documentation concerns this week. Eh? Eh? :-)
[14:10]  Tegg Bode: Funny enough there are a few that are exclusively SL, Jax Streeter I think only performs in SL™
[14:12]  You: I guess I'll take your silence as a "no"?
[14:12]  Tegg Bode: I had one a few days ago but can't remember it
[14:12]  Becky Pippen: hmmmm
[14:12]  Kooky Jetaime: roflol
[14:12]  Tegg Bode: AHH LOOKOUT HE HAS A SHARP THING!
[14:12]  You: Hi Kieran. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:12]  Kooky Jetaime: I have guns
[14:13]  Kooky Jetaime: mines more... lethal
[14:13]  Becky Pippen: I can't think of any documentation emergencies this week.
[14:13]  You: I'd rather we not threaten each other.
[14:13]  Kooky Jetaime: hehe
[14:13]  Kooky Jetaime: popgon
[14:13]  You: Kieran, please don't shoot my attendees :-)
[14:13]  Tegg Bode: Tha't not a gun!, this is a gun, to quote another Aussie
[14:14]  You: Hi McCabe. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:14]  Kooky Jetaime: pb
[14:14]  Kooky Jetaime: db
[14:14]  McCabe Maxsted: ahoy :)
[14:14]  Kooky Jetaime: gb
[14:14]  McCabe Maxsted: any set topic for today/
[14:14]  You: Jon's out again this week, and so far it looks like we're at a loss for discussion topics. Got anything you'd like to chat about?
[14:14]  McCabe Maxsted: sure
[14:15]  McCabe Maxsted: anyone working on documentation of the xui files?
[14:15]  You: Hm. Meaning, how to edit skins for the viewer?
[14:15]  McCabe Maxsted: yup
[14:16]  McCabe Maxsted: it'd be a great help for skinning if something could be put on the wiki
[14:16]  McCabe Maxsted: particularly for panel_bars.xml and panel_overlaybar.xml
[14:16]  You: Not to my knowledge... that's something a little beyond what we generally cover. However, the engineering team is in the process of hiring a couple technical writers for their own purposes, and I bet xui documentation would be right up their alley. If that's the case, they may be able to pass it along to us to pass along to you :-)
[14:17]  Tegg Bode: Hopefully it won't be necessary when skinning is a feature in the viewer
[14:17]  You: Hm. I hope so, Tegg.
[14:17]  McCabe Maxsted: that's still a long ways off, and editing the xml files will be the norm for a while
[14:17]  Tegg Bode: Hmm, I don't think so, I get the feeling RC1.21 isn't far away
[14:18]  You: As a rule of thumb, the Documentation team will try to cover anything that can be done using the Second Life viewer's existing UI, or the website. Anything as complicated as editing configuration files, we try to leave to the wiki.
[14:18]  McCabe Maxsted: 1.21 will probably include skin switching; editing the xml files will still be the way peole create viewer skins though
[14:18]  McCabe Maxsted: well t here's nothing on the wiki, currently
[14:19]  You: Are you sure? I'm rather surprised about that. I know I've seen pages about how to configure your own custom skins...
[14:19]  McCabe Maxsted: and I've been adding stuff, but mostly just from what I'm learning by experimentation. Some official pages would help a great deal
[14:19]  McCabe Maxsted: I'm positive
[14:19]  McCabe Maxsted: skin switching will mean modified xml files get loaded instead of the regular ones, that's all
[14:19]  McCabe Maxsted: i.e. colors.xml for color changes, or other layout files
[14:19]  You: Hm. Is this close?: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Skinning_HowTo/Basics
[14:19]  McCabe Maxsted: it'll still be the same edits
[14:20]  McCabe Maxsted: that doesn't deal with editing the toolbars or layout; mainly just colors and button spacing, and it's incomplete
[14:20]  Kooky Jetaime: ((Jeremy, you know you have an invisible box floating above the rug?))
[14:20]  You: It's a light, Kooky.
[14:21]  Kooky Jetaime: ah
[14:21]  Kooky Jetaime: Hmm I just found a missing option in the windlight graphics setup
[14:22]  You: Hm. Interesting, McCabe. I haven't had a chance to play with skinning much, myself. Editing configuration files seems like a patently unsupported practice, though... Are you looking for more information on the topic, or do you perhaps have something you'd like to contribute? The wiki should be open for editing, if you've got an SL account (which you obviously have) :-)
[14:22]  You: What's that, Kooky?
[14:22]  Kooky Jetaime: Show self in Mouselook
[14:23]  Kooky Jetaime: or Render avatar in mouselook
[14:23]  Kooky Jetaime: don't know how it used to be worded
[14:23]  You: That's in Input & Camera settings.
[14:23]  Becky Pippen: It's on Input & Camera
[14:23]  McCabe Maxsted: I've edited and added to that page, too, and written other tutorials, but there's a lot of stuff that's not in there that would really help in easily creating skins. Plus, I don't want to give out misinformation, and that's easy to do if you don't know how you're supposed to be editing a certain file
[14:23]  Kooky Jetaime: Heh. whoops
[14:24]  Kooky Jetaime: Seems like it should be under Avatar settings in graphics
[14:24]  McCabe Maxsted: I'd like to contribute to skinning as much as possible, but the hardest part really is figuring out what does what; the first skin I created was just a redoing of the artwork but I want to do more than that
[14:24]  You: Hm. Understood, McCabe. Unfortunately, the Doc team hasn't had the resources to deal with the wiki. The content that is there generally comes from Residents or Lindens who are working on the associated projects.
[14:24]  McCabe Maxsted: I don't think there's that much to document, and a few wiki pages would be helpful
[14:25]  You: Hm. I wonder if you could benefit from talking to whoever's working on skinning... Let me see if I can find out who that is, and if he's got office hours.
[14:25]  Kooky Jetaime: Yea, I made a similar recomendation a week or two ago.. to set up stubs for the KB
[14:25]  Kooky Jetaime: Ben Linden
[14:25]  Kooky Jetaime: he handles UI
[14:25]  Kooky Jetaime: Thursday, 3pm, Beaumont
[14:25]  McCabe Maxsted: well, I've talked to benjamin and he doesn't deal with this sort of thing
[14:25]  McCabe Maxsted: he said I should talk to the documentation people
[14:26]  Kooky Jetaime: Roflol
[14:26]  You: Oh, snap. Doh.
[14:26]  You: Because it sounded kind of like you were looking for the absolute right answers to a few questions, which I'm afraid I don't have... If I did, I'd link you to them ASAP :-)
[14:27]  You: Hi Ella. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:27]  You: Jon's out this week, so it's just me here, answering questions as best I can.
[14:27]  Ellla McMahon: Hello Jeremy ... thank you :)
[14:27]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Ellla McMahon has pinged you.
[14:27]  Ellla McMahon: Hello everyone :)
[14:27]  McCabe Maxsted: hehe yeah, pretty much. Bah. Is there anyone I can talk to or perhaps email?
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: hudscale .6
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: hudscale 1
[14:28]  You: Maybe. Let me do some internal pinging.
[14:28]  You: In the meantime, anyone got any more concerns or questions?
[14:29]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm concerned that gas is $4.00/gal here.
[14:29]  You: Oy vey. I feel your pain. We're not quite that high yet, but it's getting ridiculous.
[14:29]  Ellla McMahon: Jeremy, can you poke whoever is responsible, so that Knowledge Base article URLs can be C&P, please :)
[14:29]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Ellla McMahon has pinged you.
[14:30]  McCabe Maxsted: oh yikes. It's 3.65 here, and climbing every week
[14:30]  Kooky Jetaime: Well, we'll be at 4.30-4.50 in a month
[14:30]  McCabe Maxsted: sixty bucks to fill my tank; literal highway robbery!
[14:30]  Ellla McMahon: LOL Kooky .. £1.10 a litre ... someone do the conversion but I'm sure its more than $4 a gallon !!!
[14:30]  Tegg Bode: Hmm it's at $1.60 Aus at moment
[14:30]  Kooky Jetaime: it is
[14:30]  Kooky Jetaime: I've done it
[14:30]  Kooky Jetaime: its like 8/gal
[14:31]  You: Heh. Ellla, I've progressed from poking to stabbing to stern glares. Unfortunately, we're bound by the company that provides the software and hosting for the KB.
[14:31]  Tegg Bode: I'm glad my 4.2 litre 89 Guzzling 4x4 only has to drive 10km per day :)
[14:31]  Ellla McMahon: thank you for trying :)
[14:31]  Kooky Jetaime: give me a min.. you said 1p10 right now Ella?
[14:31]  You: I hear you on that, though. That's one of my biggest gripes about the current KB. However, there is a way to link directly to articles, if you set up the format correctly:
[14:32]  Ellla McMahon: yes kooky !
[14:32]  Kooky Jetaime: thats 2.16/litre
[14:32]  You: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID= [followed by the last 4 digits of the article's ID number]
[14:33]  Ellla McMahon: ooh thank you :)
[14:33]  McCabe Maxsted: ahhh, that's really good to know
[14:33]  You: So, for "Can my computer run Second Life?", you can find the article number on the right side of the page, under "Topic Information". It's 4051-3885.
[14:33]  You: Therefore, the KB link would be http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=3885
[14:33]  Kooky Jetaime: 8.18 USD per Gallon Ellla
[14:34]  Tegg Bode: Hmm or a litre of fuel cost me tha same as a loaf of bread :/
[14:34]  Ellla McMahon: I am not sure if you go into pJIRA much, but often the information that reporters want is available in Knowledge Base
[14:34]  Kooky Jetaime: I Got two loafs of bred for $4 today
[14:34]  Kooky Jetaime: Normally $3.99
[14:34]  Ellla McMahon: and its SO diificult to link to it
[14:35]  You: Ooh, interesting to know, Ellla. Do you think that's a problem with how we're advertising the KB, or just people don't bother to look?
[14:35]  Ellla McMahon: yes Kooky ... maybe more ... I think over £5 a gallon ... rough conversion $10 a gallon !!!
[14:35]  You: Also, I use a program called "AutoHotkey" that allows me to use a specific key combination to pase that link format quickly. I use it alot :-P
[14:35]  Kooky Jetaime: er 2.99
[14:36]  Kooky Jetaime: 1 Gallon of Milk was 3.39
[14:36]  You: er, paste* I guess "parse" would work too
[14:36]  Ellla McMahon: hmmm mostly that they don;t look
[14:36]  Ellla McMahon: :(
[14:36]  Tegg Bode: Hmm ye milk is still more expensive here than fuel :)
[14:36]  You: A chronic problem, sadly. I think it's a universal fact that people don't read manuals.
[14:37]  McCabe Maxsted: would a resolution for "Search the knowledge base" be a good answer to that/
[14:37]  You: Hm. Milk still more expensive than fuel... guess I can stop drinking gasoline now.
[14:37]  Tegg Bode: Yep , I prefer the inworl learning to reading a manual :)
[14:37]  You: Likewise, Tegg. I like to learn by experience, which is why I know as much as I know, and try to pass it on.
[14:38]  McCabe Maxsted: it's the human oral tradition; that's how all knowledge was created for thousands of years
[14:38]  You: But in the rare cases where I just can't figure something out, it's nice to be able to refer to a searchable manual :-)
[14:38]  You: Hm. Interesting and true, McCabe. Maybe we should hire some Linden Loremasters.
[14:38]  Tegg Bode: Yes I'm a "learn from poking at it and see what it does" type person :)
[14:39]  Jeremy Linden nods.
[14:39]  You: Though, one-on-one Q&A sessions quickly overwhelm the teacher in a place as big as Second Life.
[14:39]  Tegg Bode: Yeah though it also means I have some distrust of stuff I read or hear untill I poke at it myself and see if it's true :)
[14:40]  Kooky Jetaime: the key is to do 1on1, then translate that experiance into the KB
[14:40]  McCabe Maxsted: how long does it take something to go from say a jira bug to a kb article, anyway?
[14:40]  You: I got to shadow a Liaison on my first day as a Linden, before we moved away from Live Help... It was insanely busy. I have a lot of respect for anyone who can keep up with that volume of IM traffic.
[14:41]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremy have you thought about having a question forum? let anyone/everyone submit questions, and take the top 30/50 and create a new faq, referencing the database
[14:41]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[14:41]  Kooky Jetaime: I was gonna say contest but that made no sense
[14:41]  You: Interesting, Kooky. I think Jon and Katt are working on a way to extract KB-worthy information from the existing forums. There's an awful lot of good information there.
[14:41]  WidgetHUD v1.1: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=WORTHY
[14:42]  You: Uh. whoops.
[14:42]  You: Guess that script isn't as robust as I thought :-P
[14:42]  McCabe Maxsted: aw
[14:42]  McCabe Maxsted: my questionId is not worthy
[14:42]  Kooky Jetaime: Heheh
[14:42]  You: It was a shortcut I coded: KB-3885
[14:42]  WidgetHUD v1.1: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=3885
[14:42]  Kooky Jetaime: "We're not worthy! We're not Worthy!"
[14:44]  You: As for time between pJIRA and KB... That's a tough one. As a rule, we don't document bugs as the way Second Life is expected to work, but if the fix to the bug changes the UI or behavior of Second Life in some way, then we try to stay on top of it as soon as it's released.
[14:45]  You: For straight-up new article suggestions, there's a ticket type in our Support system called "Knowledge Base Suggestion", which Kate regularly combs and triages.
[14:45]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremy - thats half the problem with things
[14:45]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[14:45]  Kooky Jetaime: if people don't know what is the "proper" way
[14:45]  Kooky Jetaime: we can' tdecide if its broken
[14:45]  Kooky Jetaime: somewhere along the way people have come to equate consistency with proper, right or wrong.
[14:45]  You: Not sure what you mean, Kooky... Can you give a specific example?
[14:45]  Kooky Jetaime: Look at the alpha sort disaster
[14:46]  Kooky Jetaime: that is working wrong.
[14:46]  Kooky Jetaime: but instead of fixing it, people have just started to work around it
[14:46]  Kooky Jetaime: oh heres one
[14:46]  You: Hm. But that's pretty obviously not working the way you'd expect... It's something our graphics guys know about, and they are definitely trying to fix it.
[14:46]  Kooky Jetaime: Floating windows should release their focus when you hit Esc right?
[14:47]  You: Not sure, Kooky. I think so? They do in the current main viewer.
[14:47]  Kooky Jetaime: Hmm one sec having a problem reproducing
[14:48]  Kooky Jetaime: *Rolls his eyes.. never fails when you want it to!
[14:48]  McCabe Maxsted: hmm, that's interesting. I suppose that explains why I generally use the JIRA more than the KB if something has changed. I notice you guys haven't included the tools menu auto hiding in the build articles, yet, for example
[14:48]  Ellla McMahon: This is a really interesting conversation, I apologise, I have to go :( see you all soon :)
[14:49]  McCabe Maxsted: aw. Take care ella :)
[14:49]  Becky Pippen: Kooky, are you talking about the recent focus problem in http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4693 ?
[14:49]  Kooky Jetaime: Nop
[14:49]  You: Well, we've had an interesting time trying to keep up with the 1.20 Release Candidates. They've been changing so much that we decided to wait until we got to a finalized version that's ready to become the main viewer.
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: looks like they've .. half fixed theissue
[14:50]  Becky Pippen: and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4526
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremey - slap someone... Release candidates by design are NOT supposed to change.
[14:50]  McCabe Maxsted: what's the half fix? works fine for me
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: Ok, to reproduce the issue
[14:50]  Time Minder: You have been online for 2 hours.
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: Click Advanced, goto
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Rendering / Types, then click the double bar to make it a floating window
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Now click on any one of the 13 options.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Now hit escape.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: your view will revert, but the window will not give up focus until you click outside of it
[14:52]  You: Interesting.
[14:52]  You: Definitely a bug, though, wouldn't you say?
[14:52]  Kooky Jetaime: Tools / Select Tool shows the same effect
[14:52]  McCabe Maxsted: sounds like a good bug to file
[14:53]  Kooky Jetaime: It appears to only happen with child windows
[14:53]  You: And yeah, Kooky, I agree with you on the definition of Release Candidate, but take a look at RC7/8... several new features added to the same version number between RCs.
[14:53]  Kooky Jetaime: Thats why I keep getting on my soap box and saying, "These are not release candidates"
[14:53]  You: Notably, Ruth is now a glowing cloud.
[14:53]  Kooky Jetaime: your screwing the residents up calling them that
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: not you personally
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: People generally assume that "RC"s are *Safe* to use, but there /may/ be bugs
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: Beta software /Has/ bugs, and may be *Unsafe*
[14:55]  You: Fair enough.
[14:55]  Kooky Jetaime: I mean... I hate to say it, Microsoft has taught people what RC means
[14:55]  Tegg Bode: I just accept they are beta releaseses, they could call them kababs for all I care
[14:55]  Kooky Jetaime: Tegg, but we're smart and technicall enough to realize it
[14:55]  McCabe Maxsted: yeah, plus it doesn't give you enough room to make changes in the release cycle, like when LL realized they shouldn't release dazzle without skin switching. I've never seen an RC8 before
[14:56]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremy - what the current RC release cycle shows us, or at least me, is that LL does not know how to release software. They don't impliment any sort of feature freeze prior to releases. They want to add stuff, thats fine. Next release.
[14:56]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: I mean hell, Firefox goes into feature freeze 6 months + before a release
[14:57]  Tegg Bode: Yes but we are smart enugh & technical to not get wound up too, other people who aren't may not care either if they aren't smart enough, seems like more smart people complaining than dumb :)
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: Microsoft is nearly a year
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: LL can't even go a week?
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: and they wonder how bugs keep slipping in
[14:57]  You: I wish I had something more I could say on this topic, but there's not much more I can say.
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: the fact that the L$ purchases didn't work says a heap about LL's QA system
[14:58]  Kooky Jetaime: sorry...
[14:58]  Tegg Bode: LL are a growing company that was garage sized, , Microsoft has been around to stabilise
[14:58]  Kooky Jetaime: I'll quit ranting.
[14:58]  Tegg Bode: oops sorry Jeremy :)
[14:58]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Tegg Bode has pinged you.
[14:59]  McCabe Maxsted nods. The feeling I get from talking to others is that they're frantically trying to get things done so they can get to a place where they can do typical releases. But that's way off topic :)
[14:59]  You: Actually, the RC that's intended to be the "final" RC is always frozen for at least a week prior to release as the main viewer. I've been having this same conversation with each new RC in this cycle, since I need to know what's up with it, too... Someone's gotta tell everyone how it works :-)
[14:59]  Kooky Jetaime: All of this is going to come back and haunt LL when they decide to IPO
[14:59]  Kooky Jetaime: heh, well.. RC's are supposed to be frozen at the RC0 level.. subsiquent RC's should only *stressed ONLY* be bugfixes
[14:59]  Kooky Jetaime: not new features.. new features = new bugs
[15:00]  Kooky Jetaime: and then it becomes a case of chasing ones tails.
[15:00]  You: Though, sometimes new features necessarily solve old bugs, because they invovle the redesign of a flawed system.
[15:00]  Kooky Jetaime: And how is it decided where to draw the line, "oh but this is one little feature"
[15:00]  Kooky Jetaime: well, wasn't the ruth-glow a new for RC7/8?
[15:00]  Tegg Bode: Hmm yes but if every new feature like the chat profile name thing was a version, we'd be up to version 10000 & something by now
[15:01]  You: The new Ruth was introduced in RC7, yes.
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: Tegg - thats why you take clumps of changes
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: Set a date, say June 15.. Every feature that can be completed by J15 will go into 1.21.
[15:01]  Tegg Bode: In some way one small change at a time is better then 20 small changes at once in my view
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: EVerything after that goes into 1.21.1
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: tegg, if it was only one small change
[15:02]  Kooky Jetaime: but they are applying a boatload of fixes for old bugs, then introducing area for new ones at the same time
[15:02]  McCabe Maxsted: well, updating that many times would be a pain unless they had a delta updater (which would be nice to have anyway)
[15:02]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm not even a college graduate and I could design a software release schedule for LL that would make the rezidents go "Wow, they've figured out how to do it!"
[15:02]  You: Heh. This sounds like a topic for an engineering office hours. I don't exactly have a lot of weight in determining the engineering process
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: And those that do are engeneering snobs who incist their way is the right way and to bugger off
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: well, not exactly but
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: you get what I mean
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm a dev, your a user, what the hell do you know. If you could do it, you'd be here, not me.
[15:03]  Tegg Bode: Well then say 10 small changes vs 100, if all the bugs fixed in previous versions of RC weren't fixed and we had the RC viewer dropped on us with all the bugs at once it would be unusable for weeks and a nightmare to find which bugs belonged to which features
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: Tegg - exactly. Thats why you have feature freezes
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: they are adding new code and bug fixes side by side
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: 1.21 could release with bugs.. spend the next month working on fixes, which would be 1.21.1, 1.21.2, etc etc
[15:04]  Tegg Bode: Alternatively we go for more RC updates, like daily perhaps if we change a little at a time I guess
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: 1.22 would be new features, and incorporate all the fixes incorporated in the last 1.21.x release
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: Tegg, Thats what the new beta group is for
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: they are going to start pushing dailies to a select group of people
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: but they don't wanna call them dailies... *Ugh*
[15:05]  Tegg Bode: Ah hadn't gheard of that
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: Its kind of Hush-Hush
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: Do you want to participate?
[15:06]  Tegg Bode: Well you can't call them dailys as it really is determined by when they are ready , not the clock
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: No, its going to be a daily release
[15:06]  McCabe Maxsted would love to participate, if that was an open question. Are they really not going to call them dailies though?
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: not automated, at least I don't think
[15:06]  You: Heh. Well, it's been an interesting hour, folks, but I gotta run.
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: Have fun Jeremy
[15:06]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[15:07]  Kooky Jetaime: Andromeda Strain remake starts Monday on A&E
[15:07]  Kooky Jetaime: if your interested
[15:07]  You: Will do! Have a fun 3-day weekend, those of you who celebrate Memorial Day!
[15:07]  Becky Pippen: Thanks Jeremy. Have a wonderful weekend.
[15:07]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
[15:07]  McCabe Maxsted: take care jeremy
[15:07]  WidgetHUD v1.1: McCabe Maxsted has pinged you.
[15:07]  McCabe Maxsted: thanks for the time
[15:07]  Tegg Bode: Hmm not at this point daily download could be annoying I think and ad to my download limit, I'm pretty happy with the current RC process
[15:07]  Kooky Jetaime: ok McCabe
[15:07]  Tegg Bode: Bye Jeremy, sorry to hyjack your hour
[15:07]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Tegg Bode has pinged you.
[15:08]  You: No worries. Have fun, folks!