Doc Team/2010-06-16

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[13:01] Jeremy Linden: Hey guys. How's things?
[13:01] Milla Janick: Hiyas, pretty good.
[13:01] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Ok. Usiing Radegast here, so can't see 3D world.
[13:01] Jeremy Linden: Ooh. What is Radegast?
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: If it's a non-3D viewer, I'm impressed that you were able to sit down.
[13:02] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Was hopeing Torly is still around.
[13:02] ATechwolf Foxclaw:
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: Yep, Doc Team is still all here. I'm the only one who can make it to office hours this week, though :-/
[13:03] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I sat on "YEP Black leather coutch" Whatever that was.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Oh, cool. You're definitely sitting on one of the couches.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Can Radegast open URLs?
[13:03] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Yes.
[13:04] ATechwolf Foxclaw: it can open surls _without_ spaces ok.
[13:04] Jeremy Linden:
[13:04] ATechwolf Foxclaw: heh, the animation worked too.
[13:05] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I'me courious, how easy was it to do that webpage? Or upload I sould say.
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: The screencast one?
[13:05] ATechwolf Foxclaw: yes.
[13:05] ATechwolf Foxclaw: That was rather fast.
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: Ridiculously easy. I use a tool called Jing:
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: I press a capture button, drag a box on my screen, click "image", then click "upload" and it automatically uploads to and puts the URL on my clipboard. Then I just Ctrl+V to paste it :-)
[13:06] ATechwolf Foxclaw: /me checks....
[13:07] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Windows and Mac...need linux...
[13:07] Qie Niangao: uh oh. the infantry has arrived
[13:07] Jeremy Linden: Yeah. I do love it, though. I use it constantly in my line of work.
[13:08] Aazy Harbour: uh-oh.... server 1.40. :-)
[13:08] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: The Lindens hired me for vermin control
[13:08] Qie Niangao: /me hides his tail
[13:08] Jeremy Linden: Good thing Tiggs isn't here!
[13:08] ATechwolf Foxclaw: hehehe, that what I do, but they don't need to hire me. I do it for the snacks. ;-)
[13:09] ATechwolf Foxclaw: eep...just relized i'me human here...
[13:09] ATechwolf Foxclaw: <---- is a werewolf. His alt.
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: Hello Aazy and WolfBaginsky. Welcome to this week's Documentation Office Hour.
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: I'm the only Linden here this week; Jon's on vacation, Kate is taking a day off, and Torley is really busy!
[13:10] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: I know a guy who tried to cast silver bullets.
[13:10] Korpov Kozlowski: Hello
[13:10] Jeremy Linden: Hello!
[13:10] Codizzo Hax: Hi there ^^
[13:11] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Silver bullets is possiable, but some guns require a lead or metle jacket in order to fired though.
[13:11] Aazy Harbour: ah, poor Torley
[13:11] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Poor?! Don't you mean lucky? He still around.
[13:11] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: He cou;dn't get the silver hot enough to melt...
[13:11] Aazy Harbour: well, there IS that.
[13:12] Qie Niangao: so... this isn't exactly documentation, but I have a couple website-related questions: Do we know if there are prospects of updating the Jive version any time soon?
[13:12] Aazy Harbour: I'm especially sad to see my friends go.
[13:12] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Now, we can't expect Jeremy to comment, can we,
[13:12] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:12] Jeremy Linden: I haven't heard anything specific, Qie, but we're going to be focusing a lot more on "self-help" style support in the future. I imagine that will involve making sure our online tools are as updated and easy-to-use as possible.
[13:13] Codizzo Hax: yeah the current online tools aren't very practical at the moment
[13:13] ATechwolf Foxclaw: All Lindens have been forbidden to speak of the disator of the blogfourms "upgrade".
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: Heh. Yeah, like I said, I don't know anything specific about our Jive situation right now :-)
[13:14] Qie Niangao: okay... well that gets at my second question, even less doc-related: seems the support portal has changed the way it reports ticket histories... it's very strange now
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: Oh?
[13:14] Qie Niangao: seems like everything has been recently imported into something new... or something
[13:14] Milla Janick: When I looked at my ticket history, it was empty.
[13:15] Jeremy Linden: Oh! Well, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say about that. Lemme check with the powers that be.
[13:15] Qie Niangao: they were all imported on the 9th
[13:16] Qie Niangao: (the "summary" text is... pretty much useless, so searching doesn't find anything useful... and it looks like the title and description never got imported
[13:16] Jeremy Linden: Doh!
[13:16] Qie Niangao: so... I'm not sure whether to jira that, or if it's a work-in-progress
[13:17] Qie Niangao: /me secretly kicks himself for using "jira" as a verb
[13:17] Jeremy Linden: I use "jira" as a verb constantly!
[13:18] Qie Niangao: ah, then there's precedent. :)
[13:18] Jeremy Linden: Oh, and I'm told that I can't talk about the specifics, but the issue with searching yout ticket history is "being worked on".
[13:18] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Qie. you last point, with so little reliable info on what's happening, it's hard to know what to do.
[13:18] Aazy Harbour: JIRA *isn't* a verb?
[13:18] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: It's not even an acronym, I hear.
[13:19] Qie Niangao: oh, okay... maybe I'll jira it anyway, just in case the title and description got lost in the import process. thanks.
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: Cool.
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: And yeah, as I understand it, "Jira" is a product name, which is possibly a shortened form of "Gojira" :-P
[13:20] Jeremy Linden: Whoa, Wikipedia backs me up on that.
[13:20] lonetorus Habilis: The product name, JIRA, is not an acronym but rather a truncation of "Gojira", the Japanese name for Godzilla.
[13:21] lonetorus Habilis: indeed
[13:21] Jeremy Linden: ^
[13:21] Milla Janick: How appropriate.
[13:21] Jeremy Linden: :-D
[13:21] Jeremy Linden: Is anyone else getting some serious chat lag here?
[13:21] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Jira is a four-letter word.
[13:21] Aazy Harbour: /me starts humming "Godzilla'.... "ohhhhh no, there goes Tokyo..."
[13:21] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Been getting odd bursts of chat lag, but nothing obvious here.
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: Yeah, it seems to be intermittent.
[13:23] Jeremy Linden: Anyway, has anyone got any great software self-help stories to share? Systems you've seen where help or tutorials are well-integrated into the product, or just really useful documentation?
[13:23] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Oh, it seems as though there's always lag, but not necessarily something you notice.
[13:24] lonetorus Habilis: i could never have learnt 3ds max without the built in help files
[13:24] lonetorus Habilis: it was all i had, as i was without internet
[13:24] Jeremy Linden: Was there something in particular about 3DS Max's help that made it stand out from other help systems?
[13:25] lonetorus Habilis: yes, it was the only help i had for 3ds XD
[13:25] lonetorus Habilis: this was back in 1994
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Heh! I suppose that makes it notable :-)
[13:26] lonetorus Habilis: kids these days have it easy ;)
[13:26] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: The Borland Turbo Pascal printed manuals. I was using 'em to help people on newgroups and I'm not sure I ever really got to think in Pascal.
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: When I tried Free Realms about a year ago, I was impressed by the way they integrated the tutorials directly into their client. It could easily draw your attention to the live controls, all while giving you text and voice cues to learn new tasks.
[13:27] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: You have heard of Newsgroups, Jeremy?
[13:27] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: I'm familiar with them, Wolf :-)
[13:27] lonetorus Habilis: i got my newsgroups via a fidonet hack ;)
[13:29] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: I think you might find "software self-help" could be incompatible with keeping secrets.
[13:30] lonetorus Habilis: in sl i found that external tutorials for sculpties when they cam out where of great value compared to ll provided sources
[13:30] lonetorus Habilis: as the development processes in sl are often secret
[13:30] lonetorus Habilis: makes it hard to document as part of the dev process
[13:30] lonetorus Habilis: sure there is a beta group
[13:31] lonetorus Habilis: and they will often be in power over non beta ppl
[13:31] lonetorus Habilis: as they have direct linden access
[13:31] lonetorus Habilis: and then they dont often share due to wanting to have a market edge
[13:31] lonetorus Habilis: stop the secrecy
[13:31] lonetorus Habilis: *smiles*
[13:32] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: /me tries not to promulgate conspiracy theories, but notes that a lot of people on SL are not programmers.
[13:32] Qie Niangao: well, I don't entirely blame those beta group people for being secretive, since they had to sign an NDA. it's the NDAs that should go away, IMHO.
[13:32] Jeremy Linden: Sculpties and textures are an interesting topic when it comes to SL documentation. We have to walk a fine line between telling you what our product does, and telling you how to use someone else's product to create something that works in Second Life.
[13:32] Bronson Blackadder: sorry, but I did sign an NDA and because of that I cant talk about NDAs
[13:33] Bronson Blackadder: awww crap I just said NDA
[13:33] Jeremy Linden: The first rule of NDA is don't talk about NDA?
[13:33] Qie Niangao: Heh, Bronson, I got *offered* an NDA, and was told I couldn't talk about it. (!)
[13:33] Bronson Blackadder: whats and NDA? where? wha?
[13:33] lonetorus Habilis: so did i, but i feel as long as its kept general and within what has made public already its ok XD
[13:33] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: I'll send yopu a notecard with the details of where and when I expoect toi shoot you.
[13:33] lonetorus Habilis: (my nda is on mesh project)
[13:34] Qie Niangao: (yeah, that's the one I refused to sign)
[13:34] Jeremy Linden: /me pretends not to hear any of this.
[13:34] Bronson Blackadder: NDA= North Dakota Association
[13:35] Jeremy Linden: Oh! Ok then.
[13:35] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: One thing I heard was that the "official" info on sculpties had been wrong on LOD effects.
[13:36] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Mean't you were picking the wrong key points to define a shape, and so the object would unexpectedly change shape.
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: Oh, strange!
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: The docs I worked on for sculpties were mostly limited to "how to apply a sculpt texture to an object".
[13:38] lonetorus Habilis: indeed most devs of 3rd party software for sculpts had to go to qarl for info
[13:40] Jeremy Linden: Yeah, Qarl was the guy for that. Luckily, since we moved the KB to the wiki, we can be a lot more flexible about the kind of information we add to it.
[13:40] Jeremy Linden: At the time, "KB" meant specifically "stuff you can do in the Viewer", and "wiki" was "more technical stuff". Now the distinction is not as significant :-)
[13:40] lonetorus Habilis: yes, moving to a wiki format was a great improvement
[13:41] lonetorus Habilis: moving ppl to use the wiki, i dunno, often shows up in google searches when wanting specifics
[13:42] Jeremy Linden: I'm not sure I understand, lonetorus.
[13:42] Bronson Blackadder: usually when I try finding something on the wiki, itgives me an endless stream of OH meetings
[13:42] lonetorus Habilis: well, art of what youa re asking, as i understand it is, how to get people to use the resource (wiki) that exist already
[13:42] lonetorus Habilis: part
[13:43] Milla Janick: Thanks for your time, Jeremy.
[13:43] Milla Janick has pinged you.
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: Thanks for coming, Milla.
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: lonetorus, I'm always looking for more ways to get people to use the wiki :-)
[13:43] lonetorus Habilis: bronson, thats why i tend to use google as a search engine when wanting something from the wiki
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: If we can use wiki content in creative ways (such as the Viewer Help), so much the better.
[13:43] lonetorus Habilis: the default mediawiki search is pretty horrid at finding what you need
[13:43] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[13:44] Bronson Blackadder: yep
[13:44] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Hope they improve all in-viewer search, and then it might have the Wiki as a usefulk option.
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: As I understand it, the search field on the SL wiki has two buttons: "Go" uses the default wiki search, and "Search" should use our Google Search Appliance.
[13:44] lonetorus Habilis: is there a way to integrate teh google appliance with the wiki (not sure if this is being done already)
[13:45] Qie Niangao: hmmm... or maybe Lucene
[13:45] Jeremy Linden: /me sees into the future and answers lonetorus's question before he asks it.
[13:46] lonetorus Habilis: hehe
[13:46] lonetorus Habilis: but what bronson said, lots of information gets shared at office hours
[13:47] lonetorus Habilis: stuff that does not get informed anywhere else
[13:47] Bronson Blackadder: yep
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: True. I wonder if we can find a way to either filter that information or search it more effectively.
[13:48] Bronson Blackadder: search order?
[13:48] lonetorus Habilis: i think its near impossible to automate in a meaningful way
[13:48] Bronson Blackadder: like a priority system I guess I am trying to say
[13:49] Bronson Blackadder: Im not a programmer
[13:49] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Some office hours seem to be seriously geeky. Different office hours likely need different handling for a searchable archive.
[13:49] Jeremy Linden: Probably, but we might be able to organize better. Maybe, for example, by putting all office hour transcripts in an "Office Hours" namespace.
[13:49] Bronson Blackadder: yes that would help
[13:49] lonetorus Habilis: one big help woyld be to formalize a office hour format
[13:50] lonetorus Habilis: so each lindens office hour have a documented agenda
[13:50] lonetorus Habilis: and then the actual transcript
[13:50] Jeremy Linden: >_>
[13:50] Bronson Blackadder: like when I was trying to find out info on shadows, I would get someone talking about secretive work in the shadows
[13:50] Jeremy Linden: /me never has an agenda.
[13:50] lonetorus Habilis: nyx does it well
[13:50] Bronson Blackadder: nyx does yes
[13:51] lonetorus Habilis: and a introductory page on the wiki explaining how it fits together
[13:51] lonetorus Habilis: like a office hour portsal
[13:51] lonetorus Habilis: portal
[13:51] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Blue Linden, according to the Wiki, still has an office hour.
[13:51] Jeremy Linden: Interesting idea, lonetorus. Office hours could probably use a bit more promotion, as a concept.
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: Hmm... Phantom office hour?
[13:53] lonetorus Habilis: not sure what you mean
[13:53] Bronson Blackadder: Blues?
[13:53] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: The tech seems to limit an office hour to the same sort of level as a troop of baboons, It can't be all that much bigger.
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: It seems to exist, but it's not really there :-)
[13:54] Bronson Blackadder: baboons
[13:54] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[13:54] lonetorus Habilis: ah yes, still still need time to settle down after the exodus
[13:54] Jeremy Linden: I like that unit of measure... Not sure if it measures bodies, maturity level, or behavior, though.
[13:54] Bronson Blackadder: all three
[13:55] Jeremy Linden: Oh, nice! Torley just added video tutorials to my Voice Morphing wiki page:
[13:55] Bronson Blackadder: checking this out now
[13:55] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: SL is maybe a city, and getting the info to spread from the original troop of baboons is hard. In human terms, it's an extended family. Nwxt step is the Clan. Then you get a Dialectal Tribe.
[13:56] lonetorus Habilis: isnt morph just another way to monetize sl?
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: "Just another way"?
[13:56] Bronson Blackadder: omg Torley sounds hot as a female
[13:57] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: /lnows what he like, and Torley don't have it/
[13:57] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: /me kicks his typoist.
[13:57] Jeremy Linden: Heh!
[13:58] Bronson Blackadder: typoist? is this a replacement for Maoist?
[13:58] lonetorus Habilis: on that note did you all read prospero lindens last blog entry ~rknop/blog/?p=272
[13:58] lonetorus Habilis: err. formerly known as prospero i should say
[13:59] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:59] Jeremy Linden: I'll have to check that out.
[14:00] Jeremy Linden: Snipping here for the transcript!

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