Mesh/Archive/2011-04-25

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Agenda

  • Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon]
  • Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
  • Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
  • What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra]
  • Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra]
  • Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550
  • Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT)

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday April 25, 2011

[11:02] Charlar Linden Ready to start?
[11:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Surely
[11:03] Charlar Linden First item - Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon]
[11:03] Vivienne Daguerre /me smiles...
[11:03] Vivienne Daguerre Asha, I can see your mesh! and it is lovely
[11:03] Charlar Linden Agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group
[11:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) hehe.. Thank you. Too bad I can't see it...
[11:05] davep (runitai.linden) so havok is deterministic *if* every simulation frame has exactly the same time increment
[11:05] davep (runitai.linden) but that's never true on a second life sim host
[11:06] davep (runitai.linden) there will always be some small margin of error due to variance in FPS from CPU load
[11:06] Charlar Linden We have a sim engineer joining us in a minute, btw.
[11:06] Bronson Blackadder if anyone is having problems seeing other avatars go to graghics and turn up the maximum number of non imposter avatars
[11:06] Vivienne Daguerre /me smiles...
[11:06] Vivienne Daguerre cool
[11:06] Bronson Blackadder or turn off avatar imposters
[11:06] And (tankmaster.finesmith) ^
[11:06] davep (runitai.linden) or use this viewer:
[11:07] Drongle McMahon Ah. That explains why sometimed piles collapse identically and sometime not, maybe.
[11:07] davep (runitai.linden) http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/seraph_mesh-candidate-vs2010/rev/227422/arch/CYGWIN/index.html
[11:07] Nyx Linden most likely :)
[11:08] Brookston Holiday hmmmm... chat text isn't lining up right in the new viewer, it's partially covered by the name of the speaker :(
[11:08] Brookston Holiday for me anyways
[11:08] Charlar Linden ok, next item?
[11:09] Charlar Linden Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:10] Nyx Linden we've been hammering on the merge with vs2010 so we can merge down to viewer-development
[11:10] Nyx Linden that's been our primary focus for the past week
[11:10] Nyx Linden which leads us into the next topic....
[11:10] Charlar Linden We'd love it if you could help us look for regressions.
[11:10] oobscure (opensource.obscure) cool. I suspect that answers also #8 which I had just added.
[11:11] oobscure (opensource.obscure) (meant #7 sorry)
[11:11] Vivienne Daguerre how would I know a regression if I saw one? grins
[11:11] Charlar Linden next: Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:12] davep (runitai.linden) so grab the installer from the links I posted above and login to agni
[11:12] Drongle McMahon "Oh, it's that bug again, hgow nostalgic"
[11:12] Nyx Linden so we *believe* the merge candidate should be good to be used on maingrid as a general viewer
[11:12] Nyx Linden (or at least not more buggy than the main codebase :) )
[11:12] davep (runitai.linden) and if you find a bug in that viewer that doesn't exist in the current second life beta viewer, it's a regression and we need to fix it before we merge to trunk
[11:13] Vivienne Daguerre I have been using the mesh viewer as my viewer on the main grid in the evenings with my friends
[11:13] Vivienne Daguerre /me smiles...
[11:13] Vivienne Daguerre ah, thank you for the clarification dave
[11:13] davep (runitai.linden) bugs on the mesh grid are taking a back seat for now while we focus on making sure the mesh viewer can be used on agni
[11:13] Vivienne Daguerre I have noticed two things...
[11:14] Vivienne Daguerre favourite outfits do not always change smoothly but they do most of the time...
[11:14] Vivienne Daguerre more annoying and consistent than that is the LSL editor
[11:14] davep (runitai.linden) different from the current beta viewer?
[11:14] Nyx Linden can you see those same bugs in the latest beta?
[11:14] Vivienne Daguerre the spacing is very odd and you don't know where the cursor truly is, and the further you go down in the script the worse it is
[11:14] Vivienne Daguerre so you cannot really use the mesh viewer for scripting
[11:15] Z (zslash.cyberstar) hm i always used mesh viewer for scripts and never had a similar problem or any problem at all
[11:15] oobscure (opensource.obscure) that's a regression. known, old and hated, bug.
[11:15] Object Hello, Avatar!
[11:15] Vivienne Daguerre I am using 2.6.3 226799 April 18
[11:15] Nyx Linden could you file a jira with specific reproduction steps?
[11:15] Z (zslash.cyberstar) im on 2.6.6 227422
[11:15] oobscure (opensource.obscure) vivienne i can help you track down that one in JIRA later if you want. let me know
[11:15] Vivienne Daguerre yes
[11:16] Vivienne Daguerre thank you, if it is already there that would be a big help
[11:16] Nyx Linden if we've re-awakened an old bug that's valid too :)
[11:16] Charlar Linden OK, great - ready to move on?
[11:16] Z (zslash.cyberstar) thanks for fixing some physics bugs :P
[11:16] Object Script edito testr!
[11:16] Charlar Linden What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra]
[11:17] davep (runitai.linden) same as any other mesh -- just a broken sculpt
[11:17] davep (runitai.linden) looks kinda like a single flat triangle, if I remember right
[11:17] And (tankmaster.finesmith) a 2d image
[11:17] Z (zslash.cyberstar) yeah
[11:17] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) ok, I gotcha
[11:18] Z (zslash.cyberstar) why dont u guys instead of the flat triangle add a texture to it aswell saying (you need mesh viewer) ^^
[11:18] And (tankmaster.finesmith) cant, the testure is used for the mesh object
[11:18] Reed (reed.steamroller) sots up
[11:19] Reed (reed.steamroller) *wots
[11:19] Z (zslash.cyberstar) or give some kinda popup warning saying "some objects might not rez because you are on an old viewer"
[11:19] Z (zslash.cyberstar) so ppl know why its just a flat triangle
[11:19] davep (runitai.linden) Z: because that would require updating a code base we don't use any more
[11:19] Nyx Linden and requiring people to reinstall the update just to get that error message
[11:20] Rusalka Writer My favorit error.
[11:20] Z (zslash.cyberstar) ah ok, no warning popup built ins
[11:20] Charlar Linden next item:
[11:20] Charlar Linden Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra]
[11:20] Nyx Linden there will be!
[11:20] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Oh great
[11:20] Reed (reed.steamroller) neat!
[11:21] Z (zslash.cyberstar) :D
[11:21] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Will that be added before mesh goes live?
[11:21] Nyx Linden we have some debug displays in place, but we're working on some better stuff
[11:21] Drongle McMahon It;s in Develop/Show Info/ Show Upload Cost, isn't it?
[11:22] Drongle McMahon Not correct though.
[11:22] davep (runitai.linden) you can do develop->show info->show render info
[11:22] Vivienne Daguerre Just for your info, Oobscure found an old jira that describes the cursor problem in script editing, so it is a return of an old bug. Please see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21388
[11:22] davep (runitai.linden) and one of the lines shows region streaming cost or selection streaming cost
[11:22] Nyx Linden new render cost isn't in a new viewer yet though
[11:22] Drongle McMahon The straeming cost is wrong there too
[11:23] Z (zslash.cyberstar) any news on mesh upload costs ?
[11:23] Drongle McMahon ...like my spelling
[11:23] davep (runitai.linden) heh, all the costs are "wrong" right now
[11:24] Z (zslash.cyberstar) so correct upload costs will show in upcomding builds ?
[11:25] davep (runitai.linden) it's going to take us awhile to zero in on "correct" upload costs
[11:25] davep (runitai.linden) and streaming cost and render cost
[11:25] davep (runitai.linden) it's going to take lots of analysis of various types of builds
[11:25] Nyx Linden we're working on getting costs to a stable point where we can tweak the values based on content you guys create
[11:26] davep (runitai.linden) and for once we're setting up the accounting system the "right" way instead of the quick way
[11:26] Nyx Linden right now we're working on stability, but we do want to get back to improving this soon.
[11:26] Drongle McMahon The trouble is that what we create depends on what the costs appear to be, so there is a circular effect there.
[11:26] davep (runitai.linden) so it's going to be a little while before we can get back to tweaking the cost values
[11:26] Nyx Linden it will take a few iterations to get right I'm sure :)
[11:27] Rusalka Writer Agree with Drongle there, certainly.
[11:27] Drongle McMahon Did you see CTS-536, Davep?
[11:27] davep (runitai.linden) looking...
[11:27] davep (runitai.linden) drongle: yup, I'm aware of that
[11:27] davep (runitai.linden) thanks for the heads up
[11:27] Drongle McMahon ok
[11:28] Charlar Linden ok, let's move on...
[11:28] davep (runitai.linden) /me is famous for "1 million is not 1 thousand" bugs.
[11:28] Charlar Linden Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550
[11:28] Drongle McMahon I think it mightb be related to the normal distortion ... something going wrong with the transformations.
[11:28] Nyx Linden answer: thanks for the note!
[11:29] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) yw :)
[11:29] Nyx Linden we'll pass it to prep
[11:29] Charlar Linden ok, next: Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT)
[11:29] Nyx Linden it should have been picked up with the VS2010 merge from viewer-development
[11:30] Nyx Linden so it should be imported on the build davep linked earlier
[11:30] oobscure (opensource.obscure) mmmw ok. 2.6.6.227422 crashes here tho
[11:30] oobscure (opensource.obscure) at startup. I'll file a jira (bin/do-not-directly-run-secondlife-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libtcmalloc.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[11:30] davep (runitai.linden) oobscure: neat, keep banging on that "submit report" button
[11:30] Nyx Linden oobscure - we know that one and are working on it today :)
[11:30] davep (runitai.linden) oh, that one
[11:30] oobscure (opensource.obscure) aw cool
[11:31] Nyx Linden packaging issue - pretty simple
[11:31] oobscure (opensource.obscure) ok so i'm not reporting that one - correct?
[11:31] Nyx Linden correct, you don't need to report that one
[11:31] oobscure (opensource.obscure) thanks, i'm good.
[11:31] Nyx Linden our QA dev beat you to it :)
[11:31] davep (runitai.linden) /me goes to fix the linux build RIGHT NOW.
[11:31] oobscure (opensource.obscure) :))
[11:32] Charlar Linden that was our last Agenda Item.
[11:32] KiwiAshiri =^_^=
[11:32] Nyx Linden anything else on your minds?
[11:32] Drongle McMahon Can we have Mesh Sandbox 15 back please?
[11:32] Z (zslash.cyberstar) new avatar model ?
[11:32] Charlar Linden I think we're done here, unless there's something else?
[11:33] Charlar Linden Sandbox 15 is down?
[11:33] Lazy (lazy.spectre) 34 is too
[11:33] Drongle McMahon For a few days.
[11:33] Drongle McMahon Several mesh regions are
[11:33] Z (zslash.cyberstar) 34 too
[11:33] Andrew Linden I'll look into why Mesh Sandbox 15 is down.
[11:33] Z (zslash.cyberstar) 34 only water we got
[11:33] Drongle McMahon It used to be on an older version than the others.
[11:34] Drongle McMahon Maybe all that content broke it if it was upgraded
[11:34] oobscure (opensource.obscure) is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23799 on your radar ?
[11:35] oobscure (opensource.obscure) "In deferred rendering, solids get exponential light falloff decay, but alpha content gets linear light falloff decay."
[11:35] Charlar Linden We're in very active dev on the sim side to try and get merged to trunk. Unfortunately that results in some additional instability on aditi.
[11:35] Drongle McMahon Can I write a jira on random mesh disappearances, although it's completely unreproducible?
[11:35] oobscure (opensource.obscure) not directly related to meshes but relevant for shadows/rendering
[11:36] Nyx Linden not yet, but thatnks for pointing it out oobscure :)
[11:36] oobscure (opensource.obscure) ok
[11:36] Nyx Linden ah dave believes its a known issue
[11:36] Andrew Linden /me is going to restart the SL servers on the "Mesh Legacy" channel (Mesh Sandbox 15 and friends).
[11:37] Vivienne Daguerre Question... Oobscure helped me find two old jiras that describe the script cursor position problem exactly. Should I just add a comment to them to indicate that the problem is back? Or do I need to file a new jira?
[11:37] Charlar Linden anything else? Otherwise we're going to go back to coding and fixing.
[11:37] Drongle McMahon Thanks Andrew
[11:37] Nyx Linden Vivienne - reopen and change the affects versions, then send us a link
[11:37] Nyx Linden also make sure the repro is valid!
[11:37] Vivienne Daguerre well, I have not played with jiras before, so I am a jira noob
[11:38] Vivienne Daguerre I will play with adjusting my UI size. I have reduced it below 1 since I have a large monitor. Perhaps that is why others are not seeing the problem and I am
[11:38] Nyx Linden ok, at least add a comment with what you know of it coming back and send us a link :)
[11:39] Nyx Linden we can twiddle the appropriate bits as necessary, but the repro information (and version it reproduces on) is critical :)
[11:39] Vivienne Daguerre gotcha
[11:39] Vivienne Daguerre I will work on that tomorrow
[11:39] Nyx Linden thanks!
[11:39] Vivienne Daguerre and get the latest viewer to make sure the problem still exists in it
[11:39] Nyx Linden yep
[11:40] davep (runitai.linden) oh, VWR-23799 should be fixable
[11:40] Andrew Linden Mesh Sandbox 15 is starting now....
[11:40] davep (runitai.linden) I'll grab that today
[11:41] Charlar Linden OK, I'm calling this meeting -- thanks folks!
[11:41] davep (runitai.linden) w00
[11:41] Vivienne Daguerre see you soon
[11:41] Nyx Linden see everyone next week!
[11:41] And (tankmaster.finesmith) have a great week!
[11:41] Rusalka Writer Aloha!
[11:41] Charlar Linden yes, and please look for those regressions!
[11:42] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Have a good one all
[11:42] Ima Mechanique bye all
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