Mesh/Archive/2012-07-02

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Agenda

  1. Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  2. What's the status on custom bone import? Raz Welles
  3. When will you be able to define your own shape keys for the edit shape sliders? (Jump to agenda item 12, same question but much better phrased.) [Davido Chrome]
  4. Collada supports mesh morph targets. Is it possible to extend SL's shape modifiers to act on any suitably named mesh target (and obviously the importer too)? This might be a fairly simple change internally as they are already driving ~90 such targets in the default set of meshes. This would then mean that designers could reuse the shape sliders (ideally renaming them) to drive their own mesh morphs and create characters which can be shaped by end users... Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
  5. Did the road bump problem solved? I covered the seam of road by normal prim but my car bumps. Yuzuru Jewell 12:06, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  6. Any new information on Redpoly's C-Bones method? Nalates Urriah 18:12, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  7. Please update us with progress on texture upload issues as reported in VWR-29183 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  8. Please update us with progress on upload issues with missing bones in SH-2047 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  9. Can we please have a "show avatar skeleton" like the "show collision skeleton"? That would be tremendously helpful for creating custom mesh characters and seeing how the skeleton is reacting to animations. Ideally there should be a "show attachment points" too. Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
  10. it's possible to move a bone in three different ways. (How do these interact with each other? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT) ):
    • via the skeleton structure in collada,
    • via the shape worn,
    • via an animation.
  11. With the attachment points and the volume deform bones the SL avatar has 77 bones that can be rigged and animated. What is the max number of animatable bones that a single mesh can contain? For that matter what are ALL the technical limitations of mesh in SL? Could these be listed somewhere ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)
  12. Baked textures and you! What our recent blog post means (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465) Nyx Linden 11:22, 2 July 2012 (PDT)

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday July 2, 2012

[12:02] Nyx Linden alright, shall we get started?
[12:02] Motor Loon yep
[12:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes indeed
[12:02] Nyx Linden topic #1 "Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:03] Nyx Linden Its supposed to "just work" but I'd try having the collada file either have the full file path to the image, or have the image be in the same directory as the collada file itself.
[12:03] Nyx Linden Pretty sure there are some bugs around this even so, though.
[12:03] Gaia Clary the question is how to embed an image...
[12:03] Gaia Clary INTO the dae file
[12:03] Motor Loon also you dont get the texture as a "regular" asset in your inventory
[12:04] Motor Loon kinda a big downside to it
[12:04] Aki Shichiroji hmm i'm pretty sure i've tried linking to a texture within the same folder from my .blend and .dae files... it's never worked for me.
[12:04] Gaia Clary Motor loon you can use the copy tool when you rezz such a mesh :)
[12:04] Motor Loon really?
[12:04] Gaia Clary Aki it works for static meshes.
[12:04] Nyx Linden hrm, we should create an image item in inventory at the same time, good point.
[12:04] Aki Shichiroji the majority of what i work with are static meshes.
[12:05] Motor Loon yeah I would love it it did that Nyx
[12:05] Motor Loon "if it"
[12:05] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yea, it has worked since Blender 2.49 for static mesh.
[12:05] Gaia Clary Aki, i have tested it 1000 times meanwhile :)
[12:05] Nyx Linden as for embedding the image data directly into the collada file, we don't support that.
[12:05] Gaia Clary and i know how to get textures uploaded with rigged mesh.
[12:05] Gaia Clary however thats a bad hacking
[12:05] Motor Loon we get charged the same 10l$ for each texture right?
[12:05] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I believe so
[12:05] Gaia Clary Nyx, i have spoken to TheBlack Box. he claims he can do it...
[12:06] Aki Shichiroji is there a video somewhere that shows the best practice for this, Gaia? because I routinely add textures to my materials in Blender for baking but they do not get packaged up alongside :(
[12:06] Nyx Linden yep, the texture upload fee will be part of the whole model upload fee if the viewer can find the texture, and the upload succeeds/
[12:06] Motor Loon nods
[12:06] Gaia Clary Aki, blender 2.64 will make this just work
[12:06] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Do you put them in the material slots Aki or leave them in the UV window?
[12:06] Motor Loon then perfectly fair we also get an inventory asset along with the mesh
[12:06] Nyx Linden (you won't get charged with textures that fail to upload or cannot be found)
[12:06] Aki Shichiroji Asha: material slots.
[12:06] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) This isn't exactly a show stopper though, just a slight inconvenience?
[12:07] Nyx Linden right, its not a top priority issue, but a JIRA requesting that an inventory item gets made for your texture would be appreciated.
[12:07] Aki Shichiroji no, definitely not a showstopper.
[12:07] Gaia Clary Nyx, 2 questions further down ... in the agenda ...
[12:07] Drongle McMahon Gaia, why do you want to embed them?
[12:07] Nyx Linden as are the reports on textures that do not get imported correctly.
[12:07] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) It should work if you have your textures in the material slots with relative checked. But as Gaia said, the latest daily builds have an option to package them for you. (Static mesh that is)
[12:08] Gaia Clary i want to embed them so that i have only one single dae file
[12:08] Aki Shichiroji oog. i haven't been keeping up with daily builds - just major subversions. I'm on 2.63 now.
[12:08] Aki Shichiroji i'll have a look, thanks.
[12:08] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Welcome
[12:08] Nyx Linden that would definitely be a change from how the importer works now, we'll need a jira for the feature request that we can triage.
[12:09] Gaia Clary ok
[12:09] Nyx Linden it won't be high priority, but if someone is looking at that code anyways. That being said, third party devs are welcome to take a crack at it as well :)
[12:10] Motor Loon shall we jump to next item... there's a lot after all
[12:10] Nyx Linden email me the jira numbers for the new feature request and any bug reports and I'll let the triage lindens know that this was requested at the usergroup
[12:10] Nyx Linden next topic: "Where can i find an example file how to embed an image (not by reference but directly) into a .dae file so that the SL Importer recognizes that image and accepts it during import ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:10] Nyx Linden err "What's the status on custom bone import? Raz Welles"
[12:11] Nyx Linden to my knowledge we are not currently actively working on custom skeletons yet.
[12:11] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) +1
[12:11] Quenemue Cyberstar that would be some huge improvement
[12:12] Motor Loon another one for a feature request jira-- if its not there already eh
[12:12] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Link it. I will vote and watch.
[12:12] Nyx Linden I'm fairly certain there is a jira or two for that one already
[12:12] Gaia Clary by custom skeleton you mean custom bones ?
[12:12] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) It really would be a great feature to have.
[12:12] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes Gaia
[12:12] Nyx Linden by custom skeleton I mean adding new bones or having a non-standard linkage between bones
[12:12] Gaia Clary havent we talked about that for a year or even longer ? :)
[12:13] Quenemue Cyberstar possibility to just simply replace the whole avatar skeleton with own custom one would be great
[12:13] Drongle McMahon Longer
[12:13] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Much longer
[12:13] Motor Loon nods
[12:13] Nyx Linden yep, and its a complex project, but we've had many other complex projects to tackle in the meantime
[12:13] Nyx Linden *grumbles about the tiny robot cloning machine being broken*
[12:13] Nal (nalates.urriah) Cloudn Party is making the idea of custom skeletons popular.
[12:13] Quenemue Cyberstar since avatars like im wearing right now has to use specially designed animations anyway
[12:14] Nyx Linden on a completely unrelated note *cough* http://lindenlab.com/careers
[12:14] Gaia Clary actually having a limited skeleton has also advantages.
[12:14] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yeah, would be nice to be able to animate a tail like that without sacrificing a hand.
[12:15] Aki Shichiroji Art Director!
[12:15] Motor Loon hireing alot eh?
[12:15] Aki Shichiroji Too bad all of your hiring seems tied solely to San Francisco.
[12:15] Nyx Linden so no custom skeletons being worked on for now.
[12:15] Nyx Linden next topic: "When will you be able to define your own shape keys for the edit shape sliders? (Jump to agenda item 12, same question but much better phrased.) [Davido Chrome]"
[12:15] Nyx Linden alt text: "Collada supports mesh morph targets. Is it possible to extend SL's shape modifiers to act on any suitably named mesh target (and obviously the importer too)? This might be a fairly simple change internally as they are already driving ~90 such targets in the default set of meshes. This would then mean that designers could reuse the shape sliders (ideally renaming them) to drive their own mesh morphs and create characters which can be shaped by end users... Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:16] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) Hello!! ｏ（＾－＾ｏ）
[12:16] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hiya Kitune
[12:16] Usuki (usuki.tachikawa) hi Kitsune :)
[12:16] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *Kitsune
[12:17] Nyx Linden possible? yes, but it would require quite a bit of work. We would have to transmit with every avatar what parameters it was using or wasn't using, and how to interpret them. Essentially we would have to send out avatar.xml along with each avatar.
[12:17] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) link to agenda please?
[12:17] Aki Shichiroji http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:17] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) thx
[12:17] DrFran Babcock agenda is here, though we're pretty full up for topics this week: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:18] Gaia Clary i think the idea was to reuse the shape keys but let them drive custom mesh ...
[12:18] Gaia Clary so that should work without changing the avatar_skeleton.xml at all
[12:18] Nyx Linden ah, I interpreted "extend the modifiers" to mean adding new ones
[12:19] Gaia Clary well, that is a question from Magus, i interpreted it less ambitious :)
[12:19] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Extending is for when you can import custom rigs.
[12:19] Nyx Linden renaming them wouldn't really be do-able, and a lot of them already affect a lot of things under the hood
[12:19] Gaia Clary yes :)
[12:19] Gaia Clary we have become very good in reverse engineering the SL skeleton :)
[12:20] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) aww I come too late to add a suggestion to the agenda :P
[12:20] Nyx Linden you can add more to the agenda kitsune, but we may not get to it this week.
[12:21] Nyx Linden Is it technically possible to use the current morph params on imported meshes? possibly, with a lot of work and hackery, but I worry that it wouldn't be a very good experience.
[12:23] Gaia Clary well, i mean... shape keys are shape keys...
[12:23] Nyx Linden please add new topics to the bottom of the agenda 3D :)
[12:23] Nyx Linden Gaia - yes, but one shape key presented to the user can often affect several others under the hood in odd and interesting ways
[12:23] Gaia Clary and when a mesh supplies shape key targets.. what is the big problem then ?
[12:24] Gaia Clary hmm, ok thats true...
[12:24] Nyx Linden we only present a fraction of the total keys in the user interface
[12:24] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) Ugh, I cnt edit agenda. Anyway my suggestions are pretty simple and short. Edges show are white over white meshes, so arent visibles at all. And Z offset is usless without a plane reference as floor. Just that
[12:24] Nyx Linden Kitsune - log in to the wiki and you should be able to edit it, PM me if you continue to have trouble.
[12:24] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) yeah im loged
[12:25] Gaia Clary we counted 120 shape parameters, i have not counted the number of shape keys, but i guess there are lot more yes.
[12:25] Nyx Linden also, if we cannot change the labels on the shape keys, I'm guessing they become much less intuitive, unless everyone is creating human avatars that deform exactly how our default avatar deforms.
[12:26] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Which there are a few of floating around, because the weighting of the SL avatar is so bad.
[12:26] Motor Loon (added for you Kitsune)
[12:26] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) thanks!
[12:26] Gaia Clary well, ok i see the problem
[12:27] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) And non human avatars already needs to come with documentation, in many cases.
[12:27] Nyx Linden so is it possible? it would take some viewer-side hackery, but technically yes. But I doubt it will be as useful as a more general-purpose solution
[12:28] Gaia Clary maybe... the whole questions is born because we fear there will be no more generalised solution ...
[12:28] Nyx Linden where such a project would lie on the list of priorities, I could not say.
[12:28] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) It would allow for some badly needed costumisability of Mesh avatars. I am kinda of of the opinion that lockin people into body shapes is kinda dangerous. Anorexia and all that.
[12:28] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) O.o
[12:28] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) lol
[12:28] Motor Loon hehe
[12:29] Motor Loon "I dont wanna be Ken... Barbie"
[12:29] Gaia Clary ah, that sounds like a "maybe/one day" project :)
[12:29] Nyx Linden There are a number of features and enhancements that would make the support for mesh avatars more complete, this is likely one to consider.
[12:29] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) Couldnt be more easy to just extend the numbers of bones adding some more as morphs? Like normal skeleton and advanced one wich allow us to rig to a bigger number of bones for use with all the sliders (or at least some more of them)
[12:30] Nyx Linden alright can we keep going?
[12:30] Motor Loon yep
[12:30] Gaia Clary yes
[12:30] Nyx Linden next topic: "Did the road bump problem solved? I covered the seam of road by normal prim but my car bumps. Yuzuru Jewell 12:06, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:30] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yes.
[12:30] Nyx Linden thanks for your patience on this one Yuzuru!
[12:30] Motor Loon seamjumping is really an oooooold oooold problem
[12:31] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I think it needs the change of Havok settings.
[12:31] Motor Loon o:o greifer in the horizon
[12:31] Nyx Linden Unfortunately I think that was my last suggestion until we can get a way to specify that the two pieces of road should be "merged" with respect to the physics mesh.
[12:31] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) fun times ahead, moto :D
[12:31] DrFran Babcock /me dones hard hat
[12:31] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Oh Thats good
[12:31] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) I have an opinion here too, dropping collisions like Prim do makes prims very permable even when they shouldn't. I would vote for another solution for prims and Mesh alike.
[12:32] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) But they can't link because it was too big.
[12:32] Nal (nalates.urriah) Nyx, will the pathfinding change in Havok version help?
[12:32] Nyx Linden alternatively with the pathfinding beta, you might have more ability to integrate the physics shape of the road into the terrain
[12:32] Motor Loon gawd famn fucking greifers... The NVIDIA OpenGL driver lost connection with the display driver due to exceeding the Windows Time-Out limit and is unable to continue.
[12:32] Nyx Linden it might help if your roads are at ground level, or if the physics mesh is able to merge the pieces well
[12:33] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Maybe curving them down into each other?
[12:34] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) How about 2Level crossing?
[12:34] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Like SUZUKA?
[12:34] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) or time to change from havoc to physX from nvidia
[12:34] Nyx Linden I still think there are a few shapes at the end of the road segments (aside from flat boxes) that might be able to help a bit
[12:34] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yazurah, I should show you how I solved snagging on my Mesh ramp. Something similar might help you?
[12:35] Nyx Linden either way the pathfinding beta should provide better tools for visualizing the physics shapes and what impact you're having.
[12:35] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I want see the tool of PF beta.
[12:35] Nyx Linden overpasses could be tricky for the region's physics mesh. I'll let our pathfinding team know that this is still an active requested issue.
[12:36] Nyx Linden you can get the pathfinding beta viewer on our alternate viewers download page....sec
[12:36] Nyx Linden http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Pathfinding
[12:36] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) http://www.f1-stinger.com/f1-data/2012/gp/japan/circuit.php http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=ja&biw=1244&bih=1270&tbm=isch&tbnid=6f6RmJK5z6EkfM:&imgrefurl=http://yuttari-taka1st.seesaa.net/article/117711643.html&docid=uvQzM7mRb65e-M&imgurl=http://yuttari-taka1st.up.seesaa.net/image/SANY0071.jpg&w=800&h=450&ei=QvjxT9f1H8_MmAXKrJHQDQ&zoom=1
[12:37] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) We want build like this.
[12:37] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) We want to build like this.
[12:37] Nyx Linden yep, will run this by them and see what they have to say
[12:37] Nyx Linden mind if we move on for now?
[12:37] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you Nyx.
[12:38] Nyx Linden next topic: "Any new information on Redpoly's C-Bones method? Nalates Urriah 18:12, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:39] Nyx Linden no update on that for today. We're aware of the method and it definitely does have some fairly major limitations, so I don't believe it is a fully general purpose solution, but we'll be looking into the results.
[12:39] Gaia Clary do you mean the collision volume weighting or additional bone sets here ?
[12:40] Gaia Clary as redPoly mentioned c-bones in connection with his "additional ideas for improvement" ...
[12:40] Nyx Linden I believe the topic is referring to weighting against the collision volumes.
[12:40] Nal (nalates.urriah) Please let Karl S. know. He seems to be waiting on a consensus, OZ is waiting on him, users are waiting Deformer 0.4 to campare to Redpoly's and all seems to have gone on hold. So, yours is likely the only on=going progress.
[12:40] Nyx Linden the feature request suggested last week is a separate ask.
[12:41] Usuki (usuki.tachikawa) i believe that's what nalates meant: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29192
[12:41] JIRA-helper [#VWR-29192] Clothing deformer based on scaling and moving of a new set of bones(cBones) linked to the avatar's default skeleton (mBones) - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:41] Gaia Clary I do not believe that the Collision volume metod is as good as the Mesh deformer could become ...
[12:41] Nal (nalates.urriah) Yes, Nyx it is the collion bone weighting
[12:41] Motor Loon - communication -
[12:41] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:41] Nyx Linden ah right, "c-bones" ok
[12:42] Nal (nalates.urriah) The next deformer is supposed to consider normals.
[12:42] Gaia Clary so can we count your previous remarkl on additional bones here too ? So we will not see c bones in the near future ... ?
[12:42] Nyx Linden we have not had time to dig deeply into the idea, but it is an alternative to consider. I don't really have anything new to report this week on it.
[12:42] Braydon Randt /me listens ..... with interest
[12:42] Nal (nalates.urriah) So, it may be a very good deformer. But until we see it, we can't know,.
[12:42] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Sounds like you can't have both moddable body and easy to fit clothing if both clothing and rigged Mesh body uses the same collision bones.
[12:43] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Though.
[12:43] Gaia Clary i just think that the collision bones are not enough...
[12:43] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) yeah, seems a good suggestion for me, at least in theory
[12:43] Nyx Linden Gaia - we do not currently have a team implementing this feature, if that is what you are asking.
[12:43] Gaia Clary they have limited use, but its not a full solution at the moment
[12:43] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) yes
[12:43] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) /me nods.
[12:44] Gaia Clary Nyx, yes, that was what i asked for :)
[12:44] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) the idea still is very nice. but again we ended in adding more bones to be able to deform cloth and rigged stuff
[12:44] Gaia Clary we have added the feature to our software by now.
[12:44] Nyx Linden we have a rather large backlog of current and ongoing projects that take priority, and we don't have extra resources to pull off those projects at the moment (more on that later)
[12:45] Nyx Linden moving on?
[12:45] Gaia Clary yes
[12:45] Nal (nalates.urriah) yes
[12:45] Nyx Linden next topic: "Please update us with progress on texture upload issues as reported in VWR-29183 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:45] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29183
[12:45] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) 3DOpifex, Im 3D max users. Interested in your idea. Send me some links please on IM
[12:45] Gaia Clary just asking here because these jiras tend to get lost somehow :)
[12:46] Nyx Linden hrm, listed as incomplete resolution, that might be why it is lost in the shuffle. I spoke with Runitai about it and it sounds like a valid bug.
[12:46] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) mmm people already know that collada file cant have embeded media? at least not in 1.4.0 version
[12:47] Nyx Linden /me adds himself as a watcher. Could you re-open it please Gaia?
[12:47] Gaia Clary can we expect a fix ?
[12:47] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) the only way to use textures with collada file is when they save the collada file with a reference to the external texture patch, when you do that, collada saves a folder called "textures" in the same folder than the dae file
[12:47] Gaia Clary nyx, i cant reopen a jira...
[12:47] Gaia Clary you can
[12:49] Nyx Linden re-opened. It should go back to triage.
[12:49] Nyx Linden next topic: "Please update us with progress on upload issues with missing bones in SH-2047 Gaia Clary 23:50, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:50] Nyx Linden hrm, that one appears to have been fixed and tested - you're saying it still reproduces with the attached assets?
[12:51] Gaia Clary this issue has been broken since a year.
[12:51] Gaia Clary ask anybody here who does mesh uploads.
[12:51] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) She's right about that
[12:51] Nal (nalates.urriah) I can atest to that...
[12:51] Nyx Linden perhaps the fix has not been merged down yet. Let me look to see where the "fix" is at and get back to you.
[12:51] Gaia Clary sure.
[12:52] Gaia Clary just remind that about a year ago we had a time where it worked one day and not work the next day...
[12:52] Gaia Clary and about after a month it stabilised to "not working"
[12:52] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'm mostly using the Deformer Project viewer for mesh uploads... It is probably an odd mix of fixes.
[12:52] Nyx Linden ok, thanks for bringing it up :)
[12:52] Nyx Linden next topic: "Can we please have a "show avatar skeleton" like the "show collision skeleton"? That would be tremendously helpful for creating custom mesh characters and seeing how the skeleton is reacting to animations. Ideally there should be a "show attachment points" too. Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:53] Nyx Linden sounds useful, is there a feature request in JIRA for these yet?
[12:53] Gaia Clary no
[12:53] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) should add them
[12:53] Gaia Clary not from us i mean
[12:53] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) if they arent ther
[12:53] Nyx Linden please create one for each if you cannot find one already filed then
[12:53] Gaia Clary ok
[12:54] Nyx Linden switching to super-fast topic mode to see how many we can get through this week, please excuse my brevity :)
[12:54] Nyx Linden next topic: "it's possible to move a bone in three different ways. (How do these interact with each other? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT) ):
[12:55] Motor Loon Sure is a lot of "boners" today eh? °͜°
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) boo
[12:55] Gaia Clary i guess this is a questionn like "PLease give us documentation" ... :)
[12:55] Nyx Linden the collada file can deform the basic shape/position of the bones in the skeleton, which are then deformed by the shape worn, and are moved around by the animations played on that skeleton
[12:55] Quenemue Cyberstar docs are always nice to have
[12:55] Gaia Clary in that sequence ?
[12:56] Nyx Linden That is my impression of the sequence, but that is not my normal area of code, so I do not guarantee that.
[12:56] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) unfortunately animations only rotates bones, dont move them
[12:57] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Isn't that actually fortunate? Otherwise deformers like Petites wouldn't work?
[12:57] Aki Shichiroji i believe so, Gaia. This av uses joint offsets for instance.Moved joints are still affected by av shape... and any change in the joint offsets can cause issues with animation to become much more pronounced.
[12:57] Nyx Linden I will run it by some more animation/skeleton focused lindens and ask them to work with our doc team to draw something up. What information specifically are you looking for and for what application?
[12:58] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Blender please!
[12:58] Nyx Linden for what use I mean, what is the purpose of the documentation, and at what stage of the creation process would it help
[12:58] Gaia Clary well, we work on a tool for animating and weighting sl custom meshes. it is just very frustrating to test hundresd of scenarios because we do not know how things are actually implemented.
[12:59] Gaia Clary and we are going very deep
[12:59] Quenemue Cyberstar so these office hours covers also application specific questions related to mesh creation?
[12:59] Gaia Clary so we have checked on attachment points, collision volumes and standard bones, for animation and weigthing...
[12:59] Nyx Linden we cover content creation questions Quenumue - mesh creation is a local favorite, but its not exclusive to mesh creation.
[13:00] Nyx Linden hence wanting to see the actual bones and attachment point visualized, I see
[13:00] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I want basic information for example api and file format.
[13:01] Nyx Linden The interaction between the three is going to be fairly complex, but I believe the order I laid out is likely correct. The results you see will vary based on what deformers and animations, etc you use of course
[13:01] Gaia Clary well i personally am working also on the blender collada exporter, so it just natural that i want to know everything :)
[13:01] Braydon Randt of course
[13:01] Nyx Linden I can show you the viewer's source code if you'd like! ;)
[13:01] Motor Loon hehe
[13:02] Gaia Clary lol, thats what blender developers told me also :)
[13:02] Nyx Linden Seriously though I'll pass along the request
[13:02] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) OK I will do that.
[13:02] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) Asides of being able to see the skeleton in world, could be nice to display also other info like parent offset in numbers
[13:02] Nyx Linden next topic: "With the attachment points and the volume deform bones the SL avatar has 77 bones that can be rigged and animated. What is the max number of animatable bones that a single mesh can contain? For that matter what are ALL the technical limitations of mesh in SL? Could these be listed somewhere ? Gaia Clary 05:19, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[13:03] Nyx Linden considering we don't allow any custom bones, that would imply the answer is 77, yes? I can't say I've tried to rig something to every bone.
[13:03] Gaia Clary /me wonders if weighting all 77 bones may cause lag ...
[13:03] Gaia Clary so we have a test tool for that :)
[13:03] Nyx Linden "lag" is relative :)
[13:04] Nyx Linden it would likely lag someone's machine, but not someone else's
[13:04] Nal (nalates.urriah) Lag is a blood relative
[13:04] Gaia Clary well, i believe this is again more a question of how does everything interact... i believe we have to look at the sources indeed ...
[13:04] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nal, that would make SLs relationship to it incestuous...
[13:05] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) (｡◕ .-｡)♥ pop
[13:05] Quenemue Cyberstar you broke the silence
[13:05] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) ❤ L✿L ❤
[13:05] Nyx Linden ok we're running low on time, any objection to pushing my topic up and saving the rest for next week?
[13:05] Nal (nalates.urriah) nope
[13:06] Gaia Clary no objections
[13:06] Motor Loon ok with me... I got a kid in the back screaming for dessert °͜°
[13:06] Nyx Linden ok last topic for the week: "Baked textures and you! What our recent blog post means (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465) Nyx Linden 11:22, 2 July 2012 (PDT)"
[13:06] Nal (nalates.urriah) Yay
[13:06] Motor Loon VERY interesting stuff
[13:06] Braydon Randt /me looks up fast like
[13:06] Nyx Linden Avatar textures! Baked and stored on our computers!
[13:06] Motor Loon not so much first step... but that you're working so intense on it
[13:07] Gaia Clary sounds desirable.
[13:07] Nyx Linden just getting started on it, but it means I can start talking about what I've been working on
[13:07] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nyx, yeah. What if you need a rebake though?
[13:07] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) doesnt that impact in users performance?
[13:07] Braydon Randt anything on the texture stack is desireable
[13:07] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yeah, server side baking would be win
[13:07] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) i believe this will brake exsisting viewers though
[13:08] Motor Loon Davido... if that works you wont need to rebake °͜°
[13:08] Nyx Linden davido - then the server would rebake. You'd still do a local composite while editing clothing, but wouldn't need to upload the result.
[13:08] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) oh, when you say "our" computers you mean LL ones? or users ones? lol
[13:08] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would make user performance better I believe? If your own computer doesn't have to bake every avatar that comes into view.
[13:08] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yes, server side baking, not client side
[13:08] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) (ﾉﾟοﾟ)ﾉ ｵｵｵｵｫｫｫｫｫｫ-
[13:08] Nyx Linden I mean server side baking and storage :)
[13:08] Vivian Pinelli hello all :)
[13:08] Nyx Linden davido - you don't have to bake non-self avatars now, you only bake yourself.
[13:08] Motor Loon "Linden lab opens new bakery in SF"
[13:08] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) and I though that was already at server side lol
[13:08] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nyx, so basically you make a local composite and baking is akin to rendering it.
[13:08] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) it probably wont impact performance much, but itll help a lot with bake fail issues where avatars wont load properly
[13:09] Nyx Linden hopefully it will help with clouded, invisible, black, pink, and grey avatars
[13:09] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) hey, hey, now maybe you can think in 1024x1024 texture bake? :3
[13:10] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nyx, maybe it possibly helps with the graphics memory leaks? Hopefully?
[13:10] Nyx Linden Generally speaking you shouldn't need more texture density.
[13:10] Aki Shichiroji /me would rather not have to load 4x the textures if at all possible.
[13:10] Nyx Linden I don't imagine it would have a huge impact on memory leaks, unless the leaks were in the texture readback code.
[13:10] Gaia Clary so this is mostly done to avoid traffic ?
[13:10] Motor Loon It for sure a very "shiny" project ... I much look forward to see the results of it
[13:11] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) preference > graphics > texture quality for avatars 512x512 or 1024x1024. Everything fixed lol
[13:11] Gaia Clary When can we expect it to go life ?
[13:11] Nyx Linden its mostly done to improve the speed and reliability of resolving avatars.
[13:11] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) ^
[13:12] Nyx Linden the project is just getting started, its going to take a while.
[13:12] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Wait, do we bake locally and upload it every time as it is now?
[13:12] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yes
[13:12] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) I always though it was all server side aswell Davido
[13:12] Nyx Linden currently, every time you change outfits, you generate your baked textures locally and send them to our servers.
[13:12] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) then the other avatars download the bake fromt he server
[13:12] Nyx Linden there are some caching mechanisms to avoid redundant bakes, but they only go so far.
[13:12] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Why does it even have to do it more than once?
[13:13] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) So we have been working as servers for LL all this time, for free!!
[13:13] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) When you save an outfit.
[13:13] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) jk :p
[13:13] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) so you now dont need download every layer of clothes and skin
[13:14] Gaia Clary Nyx, the other point about caching...
[13:14] Nyx Linden it is saved from login to login, and there are some other mechanisms in place, its a rather complicated system actually
[13:14] Nyx Linden (currently)
[13:14] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yeah
[13:14] Gaia Clary when i make a machinima and i turn the camera around...
[13:14] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) simulator does cache it
[13:14] Gaia Clary then today i get always ugly stuttering.
[13:14] Gaia Clary will that be fixed with the enhanced cache ?
[13:14] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) but theres a lot of things that can go wrong on the client to cause issues
[13:15] Nyx Linden Gaia, to clarify you're referring to the other project listed there the "Object caching & interest lists"
[13:15] Gaia Clary its further down in the same document
[13:16] Gaia Clary yesm exactly!
[13:16] Gaia Clary what you say
[13:16] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) UDP textures are currently cached on the simulator, avatar baking is always done via UDP, therefor it gets cached
[13:16] Nyx Linden there may still be stuttering if the objects behind you were taken out of active memory and need to be re-loaded from disc, but it should help avoid re-downloading the data if possible.
[13:17] Gaia Clary so i would benefit from more memory then ...
[13:17] Nyx Linden maybe, it depends on a number of factors as to if the objects are taken out of memory
[13:18] Gaia Clary ok
[13:18] Nyx Linden if you're actually running low on memory, you might get less stuttering with a RAM upgrade. If you're not, something else is going on.
[13:18] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) if LL accepts my recent commit to the viewer, 64bit windows systems will benifit from having up to 4GB free memory for the viewer to use
[13:18] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) linux and mac already allow up to 4GB for a 32bit app
[13:18] Nyx Linden I assume Oz knows about your patch tankmaster?
[13:19] Gaia Clary yes... please do that :)
[13:19] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) ya
[13:19] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) he does
[13:19] Nyx Linden ok, any other questions on the baked texture topic?
[13:19] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) its open-140 i think?
[13:19] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-140
[13:20] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) ah open-142
[13:20] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-142
[13:20] Nyx Linden ok, in that case have a great week everyone! Watch out for us Americans, we're prone to setting off a bunch of fireworks a couple of days from now ;)
[13:21] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) you to, nyx!
[13:21] Nal (nalates.urriah) boom boom day
[13:21] Braydon Randt viva Britania :P
[13:21] Gaia Clary thanks for patiently answering questions !!!
[13:21] Quenemue Cyberstar :D
[13:21] Typhaon Nishi cheers Nyx :)
[13:21] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Thank you Nyx!
[13:21] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you, Nyx.
[13:21] Aki Shichiroji Thanks for the meeting, Nyx
[13:21] Nyx Linden I'll carry over the other topics to next week and try to get the transcript posted before I leave.
[13:21] Quenemue Cyberstar yah thanks °͜°
[13:21] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) next monday at same hour and place?
[13:21] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yes
[13:21] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) Okok..
[13:21] Nyx Linden same time and place next week, yep!
[13:22] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Bye Nyx
[13:22] きつねしゃん (kitsune.shan) ヾ（￣ー￣）ﾉbye bye！
[13:22] Motor Loon tc
[13:22] Gaia Clary bye
[13:22] Quenemue Cyberstar bb
[13:22] Vivian Pinelli °͜°
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