Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-02-14

07:01	Oz Linden	So ... we have a few items on our agenda today ....https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Development_User_Group#Agenda
07:02	Jonathan	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Development_User_Group#Agenda
	Oz Linden	# Open Development Jira Project Workflow
		I just wanted to comment briefly on this and see if there is any discussion....
07:03		I'm using the same workflow that we use in the STORM project, except that contributors can create issues
		so the flowchart on the Snowstorm documentation applies
07:04		whether or not we'll change that depends on how well it works
	Jonathan	It might be nice to be able to close issues
	Oz Linden	If we take an item as a STORM work item, it will be moved there (because that makes the sprint tracking better)
07:05		The Reporter should be able to close an issue
		or the Assignee
	Lestat Demain	wont that result in false closures?
07:06	Oz Linden	If someone would like to take up an issue here, that's ok... most of you should, I think, be able to Assign an issue to yourself and Start Progress on it
	Lestat Demain	as in they think they got the bug when its in an entirely different section?
	Oz Linden	Lestat... if it does, we can re-open them, but I don't expect much of that
		This project will have a smaller and more committed user base than most
07:08		so... that's pretty much what I had to say on that... if something is not working the way you think it should, let me know
	Wolfpup	that is true as it concernd building in an open source environment
	Oz Linden	Status of VWR-24487
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24487 VWR-24487 llurlentry_stub.cpp:196: error: deprecated conversion from string constant to 'char*'
07:09	Oz Linden	The "right" answer to this one is that we need to put in place a process for updating the message template file and its conversion script so that it matches the one in the released simulator code
		the whole point of that file is compatibility between the two
07:10		at the moment, there's only one minor difference
	Lestat Demain	ive noticed a small problem with that in vc2010...something to do with utf code
	Jonathan	Did you manually push out a new version yet?
	Oz Linden	not yet...
	Jonathan	Let me know if/when you do; it is going to be listed as an impediment in my report today
07:11	Oz Linden	We actually need to apply the fix for the converter to the simulator tree so that it is compatible with newer compilers, then clone both back to the viewer
		To clear the impediment, I'm going to temporarily check in the fix on the issue, but not close the issue
07:12		until we've also solved the simulator compatibility issue
	Jonathan	oh, sorry, I think we might be talking about 2 diferent things; is this about the packet protocol file?
	Oz Linden	which I expect to do by the beginning of next week, after we've done the VS 2010 hackathon (more on that at the end of our agenda... forgot to add it)
07:13		well, it's the packet protocol file and the c++ file generated from it
	Jonathan	message_template.msg
	Oz Linden	I'm just going to fix the generated file for now, the template and process next week
		right
07:14		Autobuild merge to viewer-development
07:15	Wolfpup	Oz i would not sugest doing a merg till Merov gets open-4 fixed
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-4 OPEN-4 As an Open Source Developer, I would like to use Fmod in the autobuild system if i have the needed files already
	Oz Linden	The new configuration in my viewer-autobuildvs8 repo is ok... open-1
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-1 OPEN-1 autobuild does not support use with Visual Studio Express
	Jonathan	I would think about getting open-30 fixed too
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-30 OPEN-30 LL_RELEASE_FOR_DOWNLOAD is not set to TRUE
	Oz Linden	so I'm going to merge that to the main viewer-autobuild repo
07:16		I had not seen that yet... let's leave it for a bit and come back to it
		on open-4
07:17		Merov should be able to start on that today, since I'm taking over the Merge Monkey chores
	Wolfpup	my autobuild viewer has no sound at all
	Jonathan	Wolfpup, I just dropped fmod into the right places
	Oz Linden	I think it will be pretty quick
		But I agree - fixing it is a blocker for the merge of autobuild into viewer-development
	Jonathan	not a showstopped, but it should be handled in an automated way
07:18	Oz Linden	dropping it in by hand is not good enough... I want a packaged automated solution
	Wolfpup	i tried that and edited the xml to forsce -DFMOD=TRUE and it also Forced -DPRIVATEBUILD=TRUE and failed to even configure
	Oz Linden	this business of having dozens of manual finicky steps to be able to build is bogus, and we're just going to fix it
07:19	Lestat Demain	oh good to hear...can we also phase out boost as well?
	Jonathan	The other drop-in issue (msvc* on Express) is handled by a switch; I think it will be easier to automate in vs2010
	Oz Linden	I don't think so... we use it for several things, but the new packaging makes it pretty easy (or should)
07:20	Wolfpup	Oz with Nicky's help via irc i got autobuild to finaly work and give the output like he is getting but i think i may have intrduced another bug
	Siana Gearz	lestat, if it was a joke it wasn't funny -.-
	Oz Linden	did you put the analysis into the issue?
		forgets which one that was...
	Lestat Demain	u kidding? from what i hear boost is the biggest problem there is
07:21	Siana Gearz	lestat, it's the biggest help there is too.
	Wolfpup	Nicky is running a full autobuild as we speak
		the bug is a python error in llsdmesage test
07:22		one of the things nicky had me do was switch the type of pythion im useing
07:23	Oz Linden	Ok... this afternoon, I'm going to draft a new environment setup page for Windows building with autobuild
	Wolfpup	if there are any merges to virewer development tonight ill know if it is on the autobuild system or my python in the morning
	Oz Linden	I'll need you all to help me debug it
07:24	Wolfpup	Oz one thing you will ned is some Vista/7 specific configuration setting for the cmd window
	Oz Linden	make sure it is in the jira, and I'll collect it from there
	Wolfpup	ill get the graphics for those
	Oz Linden	great
	Wolfpup	ok ill put them in open-4
07:25		along with what has to be set and how
	Oz Linden	I'd like to do some OPEN issue triage, but first I want to talk a bit about the hackathon for VS 2010
	Wolfpup	what days are that?
	Oz Linden	I'll post something more detailed on the list later this week...
		The big days are Thursday and Friday this week
07:26	Wolfpup	might be able to help on thursday but friday i work RL
07:27	Oz Linden	Lots of Lindens will wall themselves into a room or two in Battery, disconnect from distractions, and try to upgrade everything we build so that it 1) builds in VS 2010, and 2) builds on TeamCity
		I'm not going to be in the room, because I'll be in Cambridge (aka "Boston")
	Jonathan	so it is a work meeting, not a planning session
07:28	Oz Linden	but we'll have a sattelite room there
		absolutely Jonathan
	Jonathan	and they can't leave on friday night until it is all done? :)
	Wolfpup	so how would an os dev get in on this?
07:29	Oz Linden	There will be a big spreadsheet that tracks who is doing what and what works
	Jonathan	will someone be testing 2010 Express builds?
	Oz Linden	I'm going to make a public version of that, and will keep the two in sync
07:30		nice leading question, Jonathan - yes, and it's you
	Jonathan	hmmm, where do I get my plane ticket?
	Oz Linden	that is, the open developers will have to be the ones figuring out whether or not we have broken things for you
		same place I'll get mine
07:31	Jonathan	will we be testing in real-time or after the friday session is over?
	Oz Linden	all the open components will be worked on in open repos... which will all have been created by then
		it would clearly be better if it was happening in real time
	Jonathan	Will there be a list of software requirements? Obviously vs2010 Express + corresponding vcredist file
07:32	Wolfpup	Oz Nicky just finished a run but i do not thing he ran it righ as he did not get the error i get
	Oz Linden	well, that's the sort of details that we need to make sure we have worked out before Thursday
07:33		so... as I said, I'm going to write something up for the list, probably tomorrow morning (today is filling up fast)
		and we'll see how much we can do in parallel
07:34		hopefully, not too much will be badly broken by this, but if it is we'll get it fixed ASAP together
	Wolfpup	Oz one thing i can tel you is that they will have to make a system that adds the need configuration to the project for the exe, lib and includes paths that are normaly se in the options for VS2010
	Oz Linden	before then (the plan is today), viewer-development will be branched to viewer-beta, so that none of this will disrupt the 2.6 beta cycle (v-d will become 2.7)
07:35		don't tell me anything here... put it in the appropriate jira issue
	Jonathan	Will the hack-a-thoners be using autobuild?
07:36	Oz Linden	yes
		Every component will be built with autobuild, so getting that configuration done will also be a goal
07:37		(many are already done with current tools)
07:38		So... get psyched up....
	Jonathan	Does advance testing need to be done with vs2010 express + autobuild? Will that xml file needs additions?
	Oz Linden	I _hope_ that we will have merged that into viewer-development before Thursday
07:39	Lestat Demain	so your going with express and not standard vs2010? need to know so i dont install wrong 1 and run into unforseen probs
	Jonathan	I thought there were issues with 2010 express -- no msbuild.exe or something
	Oz Linden	LIndens use the Pro version, and that's what TeamCity does
	Wolfpup	merov are you going to get open-2 merged into the autobuild system today?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-2 OPEN-2 autobuild configure does not show any progress messages
07:40	Wolfpup	soryy ment OZ
	Jonathan	there has to be some way to tell autobuild which compiler to use, right?
	Oz Linden	Right now, the only way is to create a new configuration in autobuild.xml, which is not very satisfactory
	Wolfpup	Jonathan that is done when you configure your auto build window
07:41	Oz Linden	but is good enough to unblock merging into v-d
		Ideally, I'd like autobuild to have an abstraction for that and auto-detect which to use
		but we may have to develop that in the community because Lindens don't need it
07:42	Wolfpup	IE... %%comspec%% /k ""c:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio X\VC\vcvarsall.bat"" x86 where X is the version of VS you are useing (8,9,10)
	Oz Linden	Wolfpup... _NOT_HERE_
07:43		Let's look at the OPEN issues ... https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=project+%%3D+OPEN+AND+resolution+%%3D+Unresolved+AND+assignee+is+EMPTY+AND+status+%%3D+Open+ORDER+BY+priority+DESC%%2C+key+DESC
	Wolfpup	sorry Oz, Jonathan was asking how autobuild would know which compiler to use
07:44	Jonathan	not know which one to use, but to specify which one to use--that is an important distinction
	Oz Linden	(besides, I'm told that is not the right answer, Wolfpup, and I'm not going to break my own rule by going into it here)
		OPEN-30
07:45	Jonathan	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/open-30
	Office Orb	OPEN-30 LL_RELEASE_FOR_DOWNLOAD is not set to TRUE
	Oz Linden	Jonathan... I'm going to pick on you a bit... that is a _terrible_ issue summary
	Ima Mechanique	I need to relog. brb
	Oz Linden	it does not describe the user visible problem
07:46	Jonathan	good point
		That's what happens when I am rushing
	Oz Linden	there's no way someone reading the list would recognize that this is in any way related to debug console windows
		don't rush
		taking time to write good problem reports is Important
	Jonathan	I will amend it
	Oz Linden	and Jonathan is by no means the only or the worst offender in this regard
07:47		Issue summaries and Descriptions are about the problem - the symptoms, not the cures
	Jonathan	Constructive criticism is appreciated
07:48	Cummere Mayo	you mean on the jira or?
	Oz Linden	http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
		Read it
		Then go back and read it again
07:49		Really .... I mean it.
		Everybody
07:50		and that applies even more to developers ... if we can't write exemplary bug reports, how do we expect users to give us decent ones?
		I have been for years and fully intend to continue being a pain about this
07:51		anyway... enough berating... back to the issue
07:52	Jonathan	I don't autobuild to see how to fix this
	Oz Linden	I don't see why this rates as Severe
		does it prevent the viewer from running, or damage data?
07:53	Jonathan	Someone testing a viewer compiled this way will not be testing a viewer a user will be running
	Oz Linden	ugly is not Severe, nor is inconvenient
		It is not a goal to be able to create a Release viewer with Express
	Jonathan	downgrade to major or minor?
07:54	Oz Linden	(and when I get a TeamCity instance up that you can use, you'll have access to Pro)
		at most Major, I think, probably Minor
	Jonathan	done
07:55	Oz Linden	also, please specify what sort of variable LL_RELEASE_FOR_DOWNLOAD is... autobuild, cmake, compiler define, gobal C++ variable... what?
		(there, not here)
07:56		What do people think about OPEN-11 ?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-11 OPEN-11 Change STANDALONE to something better.
	Oz Linden	that exists for open devs, so if you all agree it should be changed and on what it should be changed to and will do that work, we can certainly change it
07:57	Ima Mechanique	yes to change, to what, no idea
	Cummere Mayo	reads the issue fast
	Wolfpup	maybe NonDL ?
	Jonathan	notes that this summary could also be slightly clearer
07:58	Oz Linden	Well, that's the sort of thing that I think should be thrashed out on the list, but unless a discussion takes place there within a week and appears to be making progress, I will close it
		I'm going to try to keep the open issues list in OPEN manageable....
	Cummere Mayo	err yeah um as a non dev it gets confusing to us what is meant when people say standalone viewer ... just fyi
	Oz Linden	yes, I can imaging, Cummere
	Wolfpup	Honestly StandAlone seems right for that as that is how the viewer is being build
07:59	Oz Linden	it confused me... conceptually I agree it's a problem
		let's take that to the list
		open-6
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-6 OPEN-6 Add support to autobuild for local archives as dependencies and as targets
		Your timer has expired!
08:00	Oz Linden	I've been told that in fact dependencies already work... you can specify a file: url, that fact just isn't documented
	Wolfpup	that one would help with things like fmod by creating a storage system for all localy build 3p libs
	Oz Linden	so I'm going to fix that, and we may not need the support for targets (and that may work too), so I expect to close this very soon
		yes, exactly
08:01	Jonathan	Will you send an email to the os list when you have done a push to autobuild?
	Oz Linden	The only bother will be that you'll have to modify the autobuild configuration (the recommended way to do that is going to be to copy it so that you don't risk checking in a local reference accidentally)
08:02		yes - should be doing that today
		waiting on 2 more reviews, but I"m going to pester people
		OPEN-5
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-5 OPEN-5 Viewer build fails on Linux due to parallel test execution
08:03	Oz Linden	This only happens if you have a multi-core system, and it timing sensitive.
	Wolfpup	there should be a way to have the autobuild system check to see if it is in a LL ie TC or OS build env and then work according ly
08:04	Oz Linden	I prefer solutions that just detect the technology issue that's relevant, not arbitrary things like "I am in LL".
		it happens that our build servers have lots of cores, so this happens there often
08:05		but that doesn't mean we should detect that it's on our build server
	Wolfpup	sorry on that i was trying to be more general
	Jonathan	Oz, will you have time to post the chat log ina timely fashion so people not here can see what was said about the hackathon and have some time to prepare?
	Ima Mechanique	plus what happens to OS dev with multi cores?
	Oz Linden	no need to apologize
	Jonathan	I could try to do it if you are booked
	Oz Linden	yes... in fact, I've semi-automated chat log formatting now....
08:06		https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Oz_Linden/Tools#Chat_Logs
	Wolfpup	i was just meaning check arch, os and wheither private or publick build system
	Oz Linden	the only step I can't do from the command line is to actually post it to the wiki
08:07		My Orb here even emails me the command line ! :-)
		Speaking of which ... we're over time... we'll pick up on the list and on Wednesday
08:08		Thanks for a useful session
	Jonathan	good meeting
	Cummere Mayo	oz quick question?
		about jira
	Dil Spitz	Thank You and preserve You power of fun! :)