Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

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13:00  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  howdy oz
  Robin Cornelius  wavwa
  Yuzuru  Hello Oz.
  Office Orb  mail_to set to
    Start transcription to
    Transcript will be sent to:
13:01  Ash's Zidonuke  heya all
13:02  Oz Linden  good turnout today... welcome all
  Cummere Mayo  hey oz
  JayR Cela  :_)
  draconis.neurocam  heya oz
13:03  Oz Linden  first item on the agena is the upcoming Autobuild/VS2010 work....
    I just this moment sent a note to the mailing list...
13:04  Kadah  In Voice?
  Oz Linden  I'll be following that up with pointers to other repos to track
    I've been doing this meeting in chat....
  Ash's Zidonuke  Yeah o.o
  Oz Linden  but can hear voice :-0
13:05  Kadah  kk, Voice doesn't work well for me now anyway
  Oz Linden  So... not much more to say than what's in the email, but read it and send questions
    if you are interested in helping with any of that let me know
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  anything we can do to help out?
  Ash's Zidonuke  is reading
  Oz Linden  testing Express, if you use it
13:06    If you already have changes to support 2010 in any of the packages we build, please drop me a note with pointers
  Kadah  I have express on my win7 machine, but I was planning on nuking that comp
  Jonathan  Will there be an autobuild configured to use vs2010 and some instructions on what to put on the command line?
  Oz Linden  preferably to public hg repos
13:07    yes... there's a repo with that now, but I'm going to fork it and send a pointer to my fork
  draconis.neurocam  will building the client without autobuild in the old way still be supported with the 2010 changes?
  Oz Linden  since that's the one I'll be merging into
13:08    autobuild is going to be the one true way :-)
  Ash's Zidonuke  Eeep
  draconis.neurocam  i see
  Oz Linden  see the end of my email... if there are other ways you want to build, feel free
  Kadah  Will CG's buildscripts be updated for autobuild?
  Oz Linden  if they don't break our way, we may even take changes to support them
13:09    they already have been
  Kadah  Yay.
  Latif Khalifa has the advantage of making the build easier on machines with more than one VS installed without having to play with env vars
  Oz Linden  so ... life will probably be a bit more unstable than usual next week
13:10  Latif Khalifa  hopefully autobuiild can gain that feature too
  Oz Linden  The only way it's likely to gain that feature is, unfortunatley, if an open dev contributes it
    but I'll be happy to sponsor a well thought-out solution
  Tonya Souther  or perhaps a separate autobuild environment setup script? that would be simple enough.
13:11  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  another layer of abstraction? dunno
  Oz Linden  all LIndens have the same tools, so there's not much motivation in-house to do that work
  Latif Khalifa  so everybody who uses visual studio gets updated 2005 -> 2010 on the same day?
13:12  Oz Linden  doing an alternative configuration works, but because of the way it's organized, that will be an ongoing chore
    well, in the same week or two, yeah
  draconis.neurocam  that sounds amazing, and scary at the same time
  Oz Linden  you don't need to be up to the same tools until you're ready to merge
13:13    yes, a bit
  Kadah  The viewer should at least be a bit faster being compiled under 2010, I noticed a gain from 2005 to 2008 back with v1.2x
  Oz Linden  we'll see
  Latif Khalifa  good luck with the installer and c runtime
  Oz Linden  anyway... on to next item....
  Noa Arrowsong  hello everyone ㋡
  Jonathan  Say "me" if you are an Express user
  Liny Odell  the runtime i dont think will be much of a problem now, there is only one version of it sho far
13:14  draconis.neurocam  me
  Oz Linden  I have been too swamped to merge the temp fix for VWR-24487, but I'll do that ASAP
  Office Orb

VWR-24487 llurlentry_stub.cpp:196: error: deprecated conversion from string constant to 'char*'

  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  hi noa ;)
  Noa Arrowsong  tank °͜°
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  ok
  Thickbrick Sleaford  hopes it's not too much to ask LL to also move from GCC 4.1 to 4.5 while they're at it...
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  don't forget it'll have to be reverted before merging the real fix
  Tonya Souther  Thichbrick, note that OS X is still on gcc 4.2.
  Oz Linden  the real fix is getting the server team to give us new versions, properly updated for the const change whenever they change the template
13:15    We're not going to change the tooling on other platoforms at the same time, but those are _much_ easier than changing windows
  Liny Odell  tonya, at least for .5, be glad .4 is droped
  Tonya Souther  mrf.
13:16  Oz Linden  #3 on the agenda ... open-1
  Office Orb

OPEN-1 autobuild requires custom configurations for use with Visual Studio Express

  Kadah  Almost anything is easier than windows.
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  :-P
  Oz Linden  the workaround is merged into my autobuild repo, and that may merge into viewer-development even before the weekend... we'll see about that
13:17    open-4 is the only remaining blocker, and Merov is working on it
  Office Orb

OPEN-4 As an Open Source Developer, I would like to use Fmod in the autobuild system if i have the needed files already

13:18  Jonathan  Oz, on open-1 I see both subtasks Reviewing
  Oz Linden  that's because I have not pulled them yet, but I will
  Jonathan  k, good news
13:19  Thickbrick Sleaford  open-4 is a double edged sword. Personally, I would like to never ever use FMod... (now it's back on by default)
  Oz Linden  well, but is there a solution to hand to replace it?
13:20  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  On Linux, building with only OpenAL works fine
    Not an option for Windows, I guess.
  Tonya Souther  Or OS X.
  Oz Linden  there you go
  draconis.neurocam  openal works on windows, just not as well from what i have seen
13:21  Neal Kendrick  omg its a bunneh hehe
  Oz Linden  at this point, any potential replacement would have to work better, not just as well
  Liny Odell  does it still have the error on windows that if sounds or the master volume is muted or at 0 it eats CPU/
  draconis.neurocam  i speak only from openal and 1.x experiance however
  Oz Linden  bird in the hand and all that
  Jonathan  Liny, I don't think so, I was working in that area last month
13:22  Oz Linden  Next item.... and here's a fun one ....
  Office Orb

OPEN-11 Change STANDALONE to something better.

  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Though maybe FMOD should default to OFF on Linux, like it used to. I currently see no reason to use it there.
  Latif Khalifa  fmod works much better at least on windows, any attempt to shoehorn something else would be detremental to viewer quality
13:23  Oz Linden  No comments?
  Ash Weststar  I have none so far.
  Oz Linden  Should I just close OPEN-11
  Liny Odell  sounds like a fun thing to do to get rid of confusion
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Well, the name "standalone" is confusing at least.
  Thickbrick Sleaford  I think something like NO_PREBUILT_LIBS will be much more self explanatory
  Liny Odell  yea, as per the only comment, though it does have a good suggestion
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  +Thickbrick
13:24  Latif Khalifa  syslibs/bundled_libs
  Oz Linden  Ok ... we've got a good sample group here... any suggested alternatives?
  Ash's Zidonuke  Nope
  Ash's Zidonuke  NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
  Jonathan  Let's not have NO in the name
  Tonya Souther  or BUILD_LIBRARIES_TOO
13:25  Kadah  Ditto on NO_PREBUILT_LIBS
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Tonya, that's not what standalone currently does.
  Ash Weststar  BUILD_ALL_LIBS
  Liny Odell  well, they dont get build either way tonya, it just pics from either the LL built libs or the libs on your system
  Ash's Zidonuke  Aruging about a variable naming :>
  Tonya Souther  Then make it USE_SYSTEM_LIBS.
  Jonathan  LIB_SOURCE
  draconis.neurocam  NO_PREBUILT_LIBS sounds like it makes the most sense
  Oz Linden  I like affirmative names
  Sunset Lane  hi everyone
13:26  Thickbrick Sleaford  standalone on linux means "link dynamically to the system libs, in stead of dynamically to the downloaded prebuilt libs"
  Noa Arrowsong  hello sunset! °͜°
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  take_lots_of_time_building_everything
  Neal Kendrick  agrees with draconis
  Oz Linden  ok ... here's the assignment... by next week at this time, everyone read up on autobuild so you know how that relates to this
    and then we make a final call at this meeting next week
  Cummere Mayo  use_system_libs seems to make a sense to me but im not a coder so eh
  Oz Linden  autobuild does let you install dependencies into your tree as source
13:27  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Maybe with autobuild it's time to retire the standalone/non-standalone concept entirely, not just the name.
  Oz Linden  may be
  draconis.neurocam  USE_GENTOO (joking)
  Oz Linden  discussion on the mailing list is welcome
  Ash's Zidonuke  lolol
13:28  Oz Linden  open-17
  Liny Odell  what if i use a different distro?
  Office Orb

OPEN-17 64bit standalone build clients do not correctly upload textures with alpha

  Liny Odell  before i opend it, i had a guess of openjpeg
13:29    as kdu isnt built for 64 bit
  Ash Weststar  Emerge is brought in by autobuild and sets up gentoo
  Oz Linden  OpenJPEG 1.4
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  lol @Ash
  Ash Weststar  (Couldn't resist, sorry)
13:30  Oz Linden  there is now an (empty) openjpeg repo on bitbucket
  Tonya Souther  Has anyone tried that one lately, Oz? I fought OpenJPEG alpha bugs for a month and fixed them by using gcc 4.2.
  Oz Linden  by friday, it will have the current version (1.3?)
    and it will be set up to build w/ autobuild
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  LL uses 1.3, though latest stable is 1.4
13:31  Robin Cornelius  I fixed the openjpeg bug in openjpeg ages ago, 1.3 is buggy
  Oz Linden  we're not going to try to do the upgrade of openjpeg along with the tooling change
  Kadah  1.4 went stable recently
  Tonya Souther  I'd be inclined to close that one unless it was reproduced on a current system.
  Robin Cornelius  good
  Oz Linden  as soon as that change is made, we can start treating that like anything else, and if someone wants to work out the changes, great
13:32    In fact, if 1.4 needs additional changes to work well in SL viewers, we'll host those patches and do builds
  Neal Kendrick  why doesn't everyone continue using openjpeg? i find kdu to be a problem among viewer development....i geuss my opinion is if it's open source it should stay open source??
13:33  Oz Linden  because kdu is much faster and significantly more robust
  Kadah  OpenJPEG is slow, very, and unsable, very.
  Tonya Souther  Neal, there are some subtle texture issues in viewers using OpenJPEG 1.3 and 1.4 (on different textures), but the textures show up correctly on viewers using KDU.
  draconis.neurocam  no one wants to do pointer arithmatic edge case checking neal
  Neal Kendrick  yeah, but also dangerous at times. right?
  Liny Odell  and kdu is able to work around other bugs that openjpeg runs right into and then fails
13:34  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Well, the viewer started with libKakadu and OpenJPEG support was added. So it didn't become more closed than it has been.
13:35  Tonya Souther  and OpenJPEG is the red headed stepchild of the bunch, and so absent someone going through it with a fine tooth comb and adding sanity checking everywhere, it's not going to work as well as KDU
    Never mind performance.
  Oz Linden  and if someone does, that's ok too
13:36  draconis.neurocam  im sure they would be loved if they did
  Tonya Souther  But that someone won't be LL.
  Neal Kendrick  yes, well my opinion is if you want it open source it shopuld stay open by using open sourced code...just can't see why anyone would want to pay for some ridiculous license for kdu...and put people at a trust risk again.
  draconis.neurocam  not just by slers
  Oz Linden  indeed
  Liny Odell  adds null pointer checks everywhere in openjpeg
  Mobi  essentially - cos it's worth it :p
13:37  Oz Linden  with the new code structure, there's no need for a closed source wrapper around kdu itself (and we no longer have one)
    that was the main risk, not kdu itself
  Jessica Lyon  ^
  Neal Kendrick  well, kdu is still closed source right?
  Tonya Souther  Neal, we're between a rock and a hard place. The system only works correctly with KDU. But you're right, there are some lingering trust issues there. What should we do? Deliberately ship broken code? Stop all other development for a month while we go on a massive bug hunt in code we don't own? Or ship working code and accept that some folks aren't ging to trust it?
13:38  Oz Linden  yes, but kdu is also a substantial commercial entity that has a very great deal to loose should they be found to be bad actors
    and our usage is very small potatoes for them
  Jessica Lyon  I believe Neals main concern is in the Phoenix Projects intention to use KDU on Firestorm.
  Kadah  LL is not NASA, lol
  Oz Linden  they make their real money selling to people doing CGI for movies
13:39  Ash Weststar  When it comes to a matter of trust, I couldn't audit the Second life sourcecode without spending some years on it and by thenm there would have been significant changes that would need to be audited all over again. The trust issue is a bit of an illusion in my opinion.
  Neal Kendrick  well for me trying to fix the bug is that much more fun. thats the idea of open development right? to try and keep building and fixing bugs you find? so i don't see what difference there would be with kdu on bug fixes...
  Oz Linden  The fact that we are so small and they have so much to loose makes it easier to trust them
  Kadah  KDU is still 5 times faster at least.
13:40  Jessica Lyon  Neals trust issue isn't with LL Oz.
  Oz Linden  If you're hungering for bugs to fix, I've got a list for you, Neal
  Jessica Lyon  it's with Firestorm
  Oz Linden  then he shouldn't run it
  Neal Kendrick  no, it's with kdu...and the ability it gives someone.
  Jessica Lyon  that's what I said lol
  Thickbrick Sleaford  neal, if you don't trust someone, don't use their binary releases. If you do use their binary releases, it really doesn't matter if they link a closed source library into it, it's still a binary release.
  Oz Linden  in any event, that's off topic here
  Jessica Lyon  just don't use it if you don't trust it
  ƤìXεℒ  You can do "that stuff" without KDU
13:41  Kadah  Next item?
  Oz Linden  Last item on our wiki list is the builds mailing list archive....
  Ash Weststar  Thickbrick, if I had the SL viewer sourcecode, it would still take me years to do ap roper audit of it. Compiling it myself wouldn't make mallicious code go away.
  Oz Linden  my fault... I keep forgetting to get that fixed.
    I'll push it up the list
    I've got a couple of mailing list chores to do....
13:42  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  ok
    no need to file a jira about that, I guess?
  Oz Linden  no... please don't ... I'll do it....
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  good :-)
  Ash's Zidonuke  Heheh
  Thickbrick Sleaford  Ash: many eyes, etc.
13:43  draconis.neurocam  is there a link to the autobuild documentation, or is that still being worked on?
  Ash's Zidonuke  Yeah
  Oz Linden  There's some on the wiki
  Ash's Zidonuke  Will the wiki build guides be updated?
  Oz Linden  needs work
  Ash's Zidonuke  needs some work
  Oz Linden  Yes, the build guides will be updated (most likey replaced)
13:44  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  some info is at , but probably not what you're looking for
  Oz Linden  I'll probably need some help with that
    I expect the docs to get a little better during the hackathong
    after the autobuild devs get asked the same question for the fifth time, they'll probably document it :-)
13:45  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  lol
  Ash's Zidonuke  Heheh
  draconis.neurocam  one would hope heh
  Oz Linden  What do people think of putting questions in the talk pages of the docs?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  better mail them to opensource-dev
13:46  Oz Linden  I have not used talk pages much....
  Ash's Zidonuke  teag
  Jonathan  I never think to look in a Talk page--they are not discoverable
  draconis.neurocam  i fear most people wont read them, i only got in the habit due to wikipedia editing
  Kadah  If someone reads them, sure
  Toni Alatalo  ah, good thing i checked the autobuild wiki page now -- untill now though you talked about the ancient gnu autobuild and wondered why all the fuss about it :)
13:47  Ash Weststar  Perhaps changes to talk pages can be notified on the mailing list?
  Oz Linden  I wasnt' thinking so much of putting them there except as a way of getting the page itself updated, not as a long term thing
  Tonya Souther  That kind of thing is why talk pages exist, but I gree: I wouldn't have thought of them either if I hadn't done Wikipedia.
  draconis.neurocam  ah like notes for what should be changed?
  Oz Linden  I don't know how to get anyone else notified of a page change ....
  draconis.neurocam  if someone wants to spend the tme
  Oz Linden  right now, if you edit those, I'll be notified, but I probably won't know any answers :-(
13:48  Ash's Zidonuke  Ohh Ohh
  Oz Linden  well, questions to the mailing list or the talk pages... either way, I'll make sure that someone sees them
  Ash's Zidonuke  Oz watch the page
    and add email notifications
  draconis.neurocam  if you made it so other people were notified besides you, on the edit of them
  Ash's Zidonuke  :D
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  You can create a dummy user, have that user watch the autobuild wiki pages, and have his wiki settings set to email notification and his email address to the list address.
  Oz Linden  I do watch ... what I don't know how to do is make the autobuild devs watch :-)
13:49  Ash Weststar  Or setup a forwarding filter in your mail account
  Ash's Zidonuke  Manual database editing? :P
    force watch them :D
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  lol
  Oz Linden  fortunately, I don't have the access for that
  draconis.neurocam  cron job with some checks and some email references, heh
  Ash's Zidonuke  I bet Soft could do it :o
  Oz Linden  anything you've got root access to, you're responsible for :-)
  Liny Odell  what cant soft do
  Latif Khalifa  Zidonuke is in love lol
13:50  Neal Kendrick  yeah soft would probsbly be zido's pet if he had it his way lmao....
  Ash Weststar  >.>
13:51  Latif Khalifa  lol
  draconis.neurocam  i can hear his quack now
  Neal Kendrick  lulz!
  Ash's Zidonuke  Neal >.>
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  anywho...
  Oz Linden  Any other items to discuss today?
  Neal Kendrick  omg what did i do?
13:52  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  just currious, any new features planed for 2.6?
  Toni Alatalo  i have only off-topic thoughts :)
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  or just mostly bug fixes
  Kadah  Whats for lunch?
  Oz Linden  2.6... there will be release notes out with the beta release soon
  draconis.neurocam  i wish all of you guys good luck in the hackathon
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ok
  Ash Weststar  2.6.. We plan to have a plan!
  Ash's Zidonuke  Hahaha
  Neal Kendrick  see i think bug fixes should be a main concern..because 2.5 still seems to have alot.
13:53  draconis.neurocam  theres a lot of good things that have been fixed since 2.5
  Oz Linden  Oh... some stats to contratulate the open dev community with....
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  2.5 is the most stable v2 viewer so far, isnt it?
  Kadah  Fix VWR-23318
  Office Orb

VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"

  Ash Weststar  I <3 the web profiles in 2.5
  Oz Linden  almost 20%% of the committers in 2.5 were open source
  Cummere Mayo  wow
  Kadah  No, Ash, you 'like' web profiles >_>
  Liny Odell  yes, fix what kadah linked
13:54  Oz Linden  7.5%% of all commits were from them
  Tonya Souther  Ash, you and three others.
  Jonathan  Is that head count oz or by volume, or ?
  Ash Weststar  Oh that reminds me
    likes random people now
  Ash's Zidonuke  Hehehe
  Cummere Mayo  ...
    stabs ash
  Neal Kendrick  yes, the web profiles are quite good...glad they used them...and have the security settings in there makes it more personalized...and customizeable...good for linden lab for doing that.
  Kadah  VWR-23318 is a stopper for me still, it makes the viewer unsutable for any use longer than short testing.
  Ash's Zidonuke  stabs Cummere :O
  Oz Linden  both numbers up from any previous release except 2.2 (which had a ton of old issues from many snowglobe revs pulled up into it)
13:55  draconis.neurocam is most likely related and just hit storm today
  Office Orb  STORM-1001 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
  Oz Linden  We're looking at 23318
  Kadah  \o/ Oz
13:56  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Oz, is the OH orb still physical?
  Ash's Zidonuke  acts like it
  Kadah  The whole "my fps is betweeen 0.25 and 40" is painfull
  Oz Linden  yup
13:57  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  i implmented kitty's fix into FS today, havent nnoticed anything wrong so far
  Oz Linden  orb is physical... forget why I did that....
  Tonya Souther  builds a Firestorm with the submitted fix for STORM-1001 in it.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  (for storm 1001)
  Oz Linden  but I"m going to get some improvements in on that soon....
  Kadah  What could be causing 23318 anyway? Its not fallowing hw or os.
  Oz Linden  going to enhance agenda management....
  Cummere Mayo  so wants the ui from firestorm in snowstorm
  Ash's Zidonuke  Oz, make the orb open source ;o
13:58  Oz Linden  I'll share the orb source....
    no secrets in there....
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  cool
  Ash's Zidonuke  except on lindenrobot :p
  Oz Linden  maybe I'll put them in my new tools directory
  Neal Kendrick  yay oz xD
13:59  Oz Linden  welll, I'm going to get back to merging....
  Jessica Lyon  Thanks for the time Oz
  Oz Linden  thank you all for coming
  Liny Odell  have fun oz
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  thank you for updates
  draconis.neurocam  and ill get back to running what hits the autobuild servers
  RedMokum Bravin  Ciao
  Neal Kendrick  yw have fun oz :)
  Toni Alatalo  if off-topic is fine already, i have a proposal for viewer3 or viewer4 in 3 years, and it's not just fishful thinking 'cause it already works in our viewer :) .. dunno when / where would be good to talk about that
  draconis.neurocam  take care oz
  Ash's Zidonuke  very informative today Oz.
  Office Orb  End transcription
  Ash Weststar  Have fun, Oz
  Tonya Souther  see ya, Oz.
  Toni Alatalo  i guess not now :p
  Jessica Lyon  what's that Python?