Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-11

07:00	Office Orb	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
		Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
		Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
07:01	Wolfpup	how are you doing this morning Oz
07:02	Oz Linden	Good morning folks
	draconis.neurocam	is there a reason you removed merov's name from the snowstorm page?
07:03	Oz Linden	https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=project+%%3D+%%22Open+Development%%22+AND+assignee+is+EMPTY+AND+status+%%3D+%%22Awaiting+Review%%22++ORDER+BY+createdDate%%2C+priority+DESC
07:04		Merov has moved to a different team
	draconis.neurocam	ah shame
	Oz Linden	He'll still be engaged with open source
	draconis.neurocam	nods
	Oz Linden	it just won't be his primary focus now
07:05		He's working on some very cool stuff
	Wolfpup	that is a shame that means your going to be reliing on the open source developers more now
	Oz Linden	well, I don't see relying on osdevs as a problem
	Wolfpup	true
		how are the new build frams doing?
07:06	Oz Linden	network was installed for them last week, and the router will be set up this week
		then I can start configuring systems
		I'm hoping for next week or the week after to start trials
07:07		we'll see... it's a somewhat lower priority project than other things, so time on it is on an as-available basis
	Wolfpup	< hopes is going to be helping with the trials
07:08	Oz Linden	open-61
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-61 OPEN-61 As an OS Dev using VC Express on Windows, I would like the msvcp100 and msvcr100 files to be found and copied automatically.
07:09	Oz Linden	Is this fix in the same repo you forked from my open-50 repo, Ima ?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-50 OPEN-50 As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
	Ima Mechanique	no
	Oz Linden	ok
	Ima Mechanique	separate viewer-development fork
	Oz Linden	I'm going to take another stab at that
	Ima Mechanique	link on the jira
07:10		the open-50 fork should be much easier to follow as it doesn't have to contend with the renaming and reordering
	Oz Linden	Do we need to just bite the bullet and define a cmake swith that means "I am using Express, so do all the workarounds" ?
07:11	Ima Mechanique	I don't think so
		my own feeling is that the configuration should just work out of the box for everyone. that means some specific switches can't be used. but anyone advanced enough to want them would be able to deal with that
	Wolfpup	that might be best
07:12	Oz Linden	ok.... I'll put all these Express issues into the STORM Sprint 14
		that's a good goal
		open-57
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-57 OPEN-57 As a developer, I want to be able to override the local platform for manipulating and testing the configuration
07:13	Oz Linden	did this one myself.....
	Ima Mechanique	the express issues aren't ewally a problem. Brad said the UNATTENDED switch doesn't have relevance for OS devs anymore,
	Wolfpup	Oz it would be a good idea to have is so that windows devs can have avail some specific switches
	Oz Linden	... and since no other Lindens have objected, I'm going to integrate it
07:14		like what, Wolfpup?
	Wolfpup	UES_PRECOMPILED_HEADER
	Ima Mechanique	it's included on my open-50 fork
	Wolfpup	and some msbild specific switches
07:15	Oz Linden	I included that in my versions of the open configurations (which are not working yet)
	Ima Mechanique	that switch isn't Windows only so it is in common
		my fork adds all the msbuild stuff
	Wolfpup	Ima only VS2010 uses precompiled headers if you look in the cmake files
07:16	Oz Linden	one of the things I did when importing the parts of the OPEN-50 changes I did (which is not finished) was to refactor the switches so that common and default values were used more
	Ima Mechanique	really? that's funny because adding it takes 35 minutes off my build time
	Wolfpup	darwin and linux devs will get an error notise about it
	Oz Linden	rather than having explicit settings in many places that were all the same
	Ima Mechanique	or do you mean only windows?
	Wolfpup	it takes an hour and 15 minutes off min
07:17	Oz Linden	well, from my perspective running multi-platform builds, improving Linux and Mac times is more or less pointless - Windows is 4 to 5 times as long, so I don't gain anything
07:18		not that I object, but it's certainly not a priority
	Ima Mechanique	Oz, what's the status of the FMOD lib. Is it policy now that the public s3 link is not included?
	Oz Linden	yes, it has to be, but....
	Ima Mechanique	or was it only the KDU one that was a mistake?
07:19	Oz Linden	I'm going to post a wiki page today on how to build it locally and include it in your own builds
	Wolfpup	Ima LL can not distro FMOD or KDU
	Ima Mechanique	I ask, because I'd like FMOD = true to be default for windows users definitely, and may be for other platforms
	Oz Linden	Merov wrote it up in email a while ago, but we didn't get it into the wiki
07:20		yes, it's obviously better if you can all use FMOD
	Ima Mechanique	most windows users will want it, anyone that doesn't will know about it to NOT want it so can change the default
	Oz Linden	it's just a license thing... we're not allowed to distribute it, but we can (and do) distribute a way for you to get what you need and build it yourself
07:21		we just have to make that clearer and easier :-)
	Wolfpup	after making severl mods to the 3p-fmod repository i finaly have a localy built fmot package and use FMOD=ON
	Ima Mechanique	sure I understand there's a licensing problem. Has LL actually tried approaching the owners to aqurie persion for the 3.75?
	Oz Linden	were the mods to support building w/ Express?
		Not yet, Ima
07:22	Ima Mechanique	not Express specifc no
	Wolfpup	Oz the mods i had to do are because my Cygwin dose not have the same needed files as LL's version
	Ima Mechanique	cygwin's unzip cannot operate on WinZip files
	Wolfpup	could not extract of pull the zip file
	Oz Linden	bother
07:23	Ima Mechanique	also, curl is not a default part of cygwin install, but there's no clear error telling you why it can't download the file
	Wolfpup	i had to install 7z and then mod the build-cmd.sh to use it
	Ima Mechanique	the work around for unzip is simple enough, I was going to document it when I got to doing the 3p-* in more detail
07:24		Wolf you can get around it without moding the build-cmd.sh
	Oz Linden	well, let's make sure we get whatever changes we need (sounds like some of it will be updates to the environment setup instructions)
	Ima Mechanique	yes
	Wolfpup	it would help is there was an exaclt lising of what is in LL's Cygwin settings
07:25	Oz Linden	wow... I'm going to have to fiddle with the Windlight settings here... I've got it turned on now and this is really gloomy :-)
	draconis.neurocam	oooh
	Oz Linden	coming soon to a Project Viewer near you !
	draconis.neurocam	yaaay
07:26		i understand why its taken so long, but its always been silly to me for LL to not have given more priority to something that would better the image of sl on the whole
07:27		glad to see its even closer
	Oz Linden	well, I don't really have any idea why it sat on the shelf gathering dust, but we've resurrected it and it will be our Sprint 14 focus
		it's pretty cool
07:28		So... that's all the triage issues.... any other topics this morning?
07:29	draconis.neurocam	but yes wolfpup i would agree, right now we are only told we need, bison, patchutils, and flex, i feel like there is probably more
	Ima Mechanique	curl
		efinitely
		and GnuWin32 unzip
07:30	Wolfpup	is that last one part of Cygwin Ima?
	Ima Mechanique	I wonder what is installed on the Windows build machine. It probably doesn't have VS 2010, as it seems most CI build operators consider that a bad idea
07:31	Eddi Decosta	heya :)
	Ima Mechanique	hi Eddi
	Wolfpup	hey eddi
	draconis.neurocam	hello eddi
	Oz Linden	don't understand your question/speculation, Ima
		whose build machine?
		hi Eddi
07:32	Wolfpup	Oz the LL build farms
	draconis.neurocam	i believe he is just saying it would be nice to know all of what ll uses to build windows with, including anything extra from the dependancies that might not be listed anywhere
	Ima Mechanique	Last 2-3 days I've been doing a lot of research into differences between VC Express/Full version and automation and it seems COntinuous Integration works better without VS installed on the windows builder.
07:33	Oz Linden	no, our build farm is set up for 2010 now - has to be
	Ima Mechanique	So I wonder if that's the case with TC and in general knowing the actual environment might be a big help
	Oz Linden	ah... well, my intent is that we get the public setup instructions to as closely as possible match the internal system setup
07:34	Ima Mechanique	being "set up for" does not necessarily mean installing Visual Studio
	Oz Linden	In the course of setting up the new public TC, I'll double check that
	Wolfpup	yes it would help the OS devs if we could closer configure our systems to LL build system
	Ima Mechanique	only needs the compilers and some support proggies
	Oz Linden	I may even have to borrow a box and put windows on it and try it myself
		shudders
	draconis.neurocam	hehe
07:35	Ima Mechanique	lol
	draconis.neurocam	oz, do you have any idea if the other teams that have beta viewers will pick up the autobuild changes any time soon?
	Oz Linden	My wife just got a new job and will be using Linux for the first time.... she's anxious about it, but I'll finally be able to help her with any system issues she has
07:36	draconis.neurocam	nice
	Wolfpup	Oz one thing is certian Windows Os devs can use msbuild from the 7.1SDK for the cmd line in both an express and pro VS
	Ima Mechanique	depending on what she's using it for I don't imagine she really need worry
	Oz Linden	I don't know yet what flavor here new company uses...
07:37	Ima Mechanique	off course, useability depends so much on the distro ;-)
07:38	Oz Linden	I'd really love it if we could make the same build commands work for both express and non-express users, and both Lindens and OsDevs, but I think incredibuild gets in the way
	Ima Mechanique	I was trying to set up a environment on Ubunto I can do all my WebDev on.
	Wolfpup	the basics will be the same no mater what the flavor of linux is is just more advanced thigs will be handled differenty
07:39	Ima Mechanique	I'm not sure incredibuild is any impediment
	Oz Linden	well, it's a goal... we'll see how close we can come
	draconis.neurocam	also, about windows stuff, i noticed there is a service pack 1 for visual studio 2010, that i had to get manually, didnt show up in windows update, and it isnt listed on the things to use page, just something i noticed
	Ima Mechanique	oh, do you mean in terms of reducing to ONLY 3 configurations?
	Wolfpup	Oz as part of testin the public build fram set all the windows settings to use msbuild instead of devenv
07:40	Oz Linden	well, I don't think we can completely separate the configurations because of KDU (and soon Havok)
	Ima Mechanique	Wolf, you mean the LL build too?
	Oz Linden	but it would be nice if the build commands themselves were the same
	Wolfpup	yes
07:41		i think merov at one point was going to test that
	Ima Mechanique	hmm, well Oz, you'll have to persuade TC to switch over to msbuild. I'm not sure they'll want to ;-)
		from they're point of view, Why fix something that ain't broke?
07:42	Oz Linden	Well, the real reason is that when I get a contribution I'd like to know that it has been tested building it the way we will build it
		one unified set of bugs :-)
07:43	Ima Mechanique	you might be able to sell it on that. Why have two layers of build management, TC and incrdibuild
		but if they're using any of the incredibuild extras to improve performance or versatiltiy then that's the answer
07:44	Oz Linden	I don't really know, unfortunately
07:45		will have to do some experiments....
	Ima Mechanique	it may originally have been used to make life simpler, because msbuild couldn't handle C/C++ builds
		if that's the case, it's not needed any more
07:48		Oz any idea when you can look at open-50 again?
07:49	Oz Linden	it's high on my list for this week... in fact, will move to STORM so I can import it to this sprint
	Ima Mechanique	okay
	Oz Linden	I've got a lot of meetings today, but I should get back to it no later than tomorrow
	draconis.neurocam	ah
07:50	Ima Mechanique	I'll take a look at my end to see if I've missed anything we talked about earlier
	Oz Linden	thanks
		well, if we don't have any other topics today, I'd just as soon get a start on my sprint planning....
07:51	Ima Mechanique	I'm actually using the xml for my builds, finding it easier than having to add all the switches to the command line again ;-)
		sure
	draconis.neurocam	real quick, did the last items you merged hit the build servers oz, the ones from today?
	Oz Linden	you know that you can make your own copy of autobuild.xml and point to it with an environment variable ?
		those merges are building now, draconis
07:52	Ima Mechanique	no I didn't, I tried using the config switch but it broke
	draconis.neurocam	ah alright
		thanks
	Oz Linden	looks like they'll be done in 40-50 minutes
	draconis.neurocam	nods
	Ima Mechanique	what's the env variable Oz?
	Oz Linden	AUTOBUILD_CONFIG_FILE
	Ima Mechanique	sweet.
07:53		does the original file have to exist still?
	Oz Linden	and you can specify the configuration to build in AUTOBUILD_CONFIGURATION
		no
	Ima Mechanique	good, cuz with the command line switch it kept falling back to the original, and choked if I removed it
	Oz Linden	those provide defaults for the --config-file and --configuration arguments respectively
07:54	Ima Mechanique	hmm, I'll try it. but those are what I had problems using
07:55	Oz Linden	they work right on Mac and Linux, I'm sure
07:56		if the environment variables are inherited correctly on Windows, they should work there too
		Hi Opensource
	oobscure	hey verybody
07:57	draconis.neurocam	hello opensource
	Ima Mechanique	hey OpenSource
	Eddi Decosta	hi opensource :)
07:59	Ima Mechanique	just testing now ;-)
	draconis.neurocam	have a good day oz
	Oz Linden	I'm getting the Open Development Candidates pseudo-versions cleaned up in STORM and VWR (will probably move them all to VWR)
	Ima Mechanique	damn, everything's relative to the xml file
	Oz Linden	eventually, those will be a great place to look for work we'd like open devs to take on
08:00	Office Orb	Your timer has expired!
	Ima Mechanique	thought I could put my copy outside the source :-)
	Oz Linden	no, you can't
		but you could make a copy and then configure hg to ignore it
	oobscure	(( ..just a small reminder about my request to a more structured approach to labels in JIRA ))
	Oz Linden	in fact, it might be a good idea for us to come up with a convention for that and check in the ignore
	Ima Mechanique	doing that now ;-)
08:01	Oz Linden	yes, I'll reply to that, oobscure....
	oobscure	thanks!
	Ima Mechanique	can't use that
		well not easily
	Oz Linden	I'm having a bunch of internal discussions about VWR policies - once those are clear, I'll get some public guidance about labels out there
08:03	Ima Mechanique	sorted ;-)
		labels for...
	oobscure	where do I find the date a certain Sprint is due to?
08:04	Oz Linden	we stopped putting those on the Snowstorm calendar a while back... I'll get them put back
		but it should be in the jira....
		...looking....
08:07	Wolfpup	Oz you relize storm-83 will be a PIA to implament?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-83 STORM-83 As a user who cannot type of spell to save their life, I want dynamic spell check for everything I type, so I a little bit more literate. :)
	Oz Linden	fixed the Sprint 14 date (Apr 22 is the end)
	oobscure	ah i see oz, thanks
	draconis.neurocam	wolfpup its in phoenix, and when it was in emerald, it was indeed a pita to write
08:08	Oz Linden	Sure, Wolfpup.... but you of all people should appreciate it (and me too!)
	draconis.neurocam	there were days all text in the ui was underlined in red
		not fun
	Wolfpup	< has learnt to read typoneesses :p
08:09	draconis.neurocam	or red, and not just underlined
	oobscure	"sprint end" means ... on that day, fixes get into viewer development?
	Oz Linden	no, fixes can be integrated any time during the sprint when they are ready
	Wolfpup	that means storm-1098 should be going in now as it was in the last sprint
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1098 STORM-1098 Debug setting ShowNetStats has wrong description
	oobscure	oh , right
08:10	Oz Linden	yeah, I missed that one over the weekend, but it should go in shortly...
08:11		anyway, I'm over time and need to do some work before the sprint planning meeting this afternoon
	oobscure	I gotta go ... I updated https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Portal/it
	Oz Linden	tty all later
	Office Orb	End transcription
	oobscure	and https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux)/it
		bye Oz!
		bye everybody