Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-11

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07:00  Office Orb  mail_to set to
    Start transcription to
    Transcript will be sent to:
07:01  Wolfpup  how are you doing this morning Oz
07:02  Oz Linden  Good morning folks
  draconis.neurocam  is there a reason you removed merov's name from the snowstorm page?
07:03  Oz Linden
07:04    Merov has moved to a different team
  draconis.neurocam  ah shame
  Oz Linden  He'll still be engaged with open source
  draconis.neurocam  nods
  Oz Linden  it just won't be his primary focus now
07:05    He's working on some very cool stuff
  Wolfpup  that is a shame that means your going to be reliing on the open source developers more now
  Oz Linden  well, I don't see relying on osdevs as a problem
  Wolfpup  true
    how are the new build frams doing?
07:06  Oz Linden  network was installed for them last week, and the router will be set up this week
    then I can start configuring systems
    I'm hoping for next week or the week after to start trials
07:07    we'll see... it's a somewhat lower priority project than other things, so time on it is on an as-available basis
  Wolfpup  < hopes is going to be helping with the trials
07:08  Oz Linden  open-61
  Office Orb

OPEN-61 As an OS Dev using VC Express on Windows, I would like the msvcp100 and msvcr100 files to be found and copied automatically.

07:09  Oz Linden  Is this fix in the same repo you forked from my open-50 repo, Ima ?
  Office Orb

OPEN-50 As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.

  Ima Mechanique  no
  Oz Linden  ok
  Ima Mechanique  separate viewer-development fork
  Oz Linden  I'm going to take another stab at that
  Ima Mechanique  link on the jira
07:10    the open-50 fork should be much easier to follow as it doesn't have to contend with the renaming and reordering
  Oz Linden  Do we need to just bite the bullet and define a cmake swith that means "I am using Express, so do all the workarounds" ?
07:11  Ima Mechanique  I don't think so
    my own feeling is that the configuration should just work out of the box for everyone. that means some specific switches can't be used. but anyone advanced enough to want them would be able to deal with that
  Wolfpup  that might be best
07:12  Oz Linden  ok.... I'll put all these Express issues into the STORM Sprint 14
    that's a good goal
  Office Orb

OPEN-57 As a developer, I want to be able to override the local platform for manipulating and testing the configuration

07:13  Oz Linden  did this one myself.....
  Ima Mechanique  the express issues aren't ewally a problem. Brad said the UNATTENDED switch doesn't have relevance for OS devs anymore,
  Wolfpup  Oz it would be a good idea to have is so that windows devs can have avail some specific switches
  Oz Linden  ... and since no other Lindens have objected, I'm going to integrate it
07:14    like what, Wolfpup?
  Ima Mechanique  it's included on my open-50 fork
  Wolfpup  and some msbild specific switches
07:15  Oz Linden  I included that in my versions of the open configurations (which are not working yet)
  Ima Mechanique  that switch isn't Windows only so it is in common
    my fork adds all the msbuild stuff
  Wolfpup  Ima only VS2010 uses precompiled headers if you look in the cmake files
07:16  Oz Linden  one of the things I did when importing the parts of the OPEN-50 changes I did (which is not finished) was to refactor the switches so that common and default values were used more
  Ima Mechanique  really? that's funny because adding it takes 35 minutes off my build time
  Wolfpup  darwin and linux devs will get an error notise about it
  Oz Linden  rather than having explicit settings in many places that were all the same
  Ima Mechanique  or do you mean only windows?
  Wolfpup  it takes an hour and 15 minutes off min
07:17  Oz Linden  well, from my perspective running multi-platform builds, improving Linux and Mac times is more or less pointless - Windows is 4 to 5 times as long, so I don't gain anything
07:18    not that I object, but it's certainly not a priority
  Ima Mechanique  Oz, what's the status of the FMOD lib. Is it policy now that the public s3 link is not included?
  Oz Linden  yes, it has to be, but....
  Ima Mechanique  or was it only the KDU one that was a mistake?
07:19  Oz Linden  I'm going to post a wiki page today on how to build it locally and include it in your own builds
  Wolfpup  Ima LL can not distro FMOD or KDU
  Ima Mechanique  I ask, because I'd like FMOD = true to be default for windows users definitely, and may be for other platforms
  Oz Linden  Merov wrote it up in email a while ago, but we didn't get it into the wiki
07:20    yes, it's obviously better if you can all use FMOD
  Ima Mechanique  most windows users will want it, anyone that doesn't will know about it to NOT want it so can change the default
  Oz Linden  it's just a license thing... we're not allowed to distribute it, but we can (and do) distribute a way for you to get what you need and build it yourself
07:21    we just have to make that clearer and easier :-)
  Wolfpup  after making severl mods to the 3p-fmod repository i finaly have a localy built fmot package and use FMOD=ON
  Ima Mechanique  sure I understand there's a licensing problem. Has LL actually tried approaching the owners to aqurie persion for the 3.75?
  Oz Linden  were the mods to support building w/ Express?
    Not yet, Ima
07:22  Ima Mechanique  not Express specifc no
  Wolfpup  Oz the mods i had to do are because my Cygwin dose not have the same needed files as LL's version
  Ima Mechanique  cygwin's unzip cannot operate on WinZip files
  Wolfpup  could not extract of pull the zip file
  Oz Linden  bother
07:23  Ima Mechanique  also, curl is not a default part of cygwin install, but there's no clear error telling you why it can't download the file
  Wolfpup  i had to install 7z and then mod the to use it
  Ima Mechanique  the work around for unzip is simple enough, I was going to document it when I got to doing the 3p-* in more detail
07:24    Wolf you can get around it without moding the
  Oz Linden  well, let's make sure we get whatever changes we need (sounds like some of it will be updates to the environment setup instructions)
  Ima Mechanique  yes
  Wolfpup  it would help is there was an exaclt lising of what is in LL's Cygwin settings
07:25  Oz Linden  wow... I'm going to have to fiddle with the Windlight settings here... I've got it turned on now and this is really gloomy :-)
  draconis.neurocam  oooh
  Oz Linden  coming soon to a Project Viewer near you !
  draconis.neurocam  yaaay
07:26    i understand why its taken so long, but its always been silly to me for LL to not have given more priority to something that would better the image of sl on the whole
07:27    glad to see its even closer
  Oz Linden  well, I don't really have any idea why it sat on the shelf gathering dust, but we've resurrected it and it will be our Sprint 14 focus
    it's pretty cool
07:28    So... that's all the triage issues.... any other topics this morning?
07:29  draconis.neurocam  but yes wolfpup i would agree, right now we are only told we need, bison, patchutils, and flex, i feel like there is probably more
  Ima Mechanique  curl
    and GnuWin32 unzip
07:30  Wolfpup  is that last one part of Cygwin Ima?
  Ima Mechanique  I wonder what is installed on the Windows build machine. It probably doesn't have VS 2010, as it seems most CI build operators consider that a bad idea
07:31  Eddi Decosta  heya :)
  Ima Mechanique  hi Eddi
  Wolfpup  hey eddi
  draconis.neurocam  hello eddi
  Oz Linden  don't understand your question/speculation, Ima
    whose build machine?
    hi Eddi
07:32  Wolfpup  Oz the LL build farms
  draconis.neurocam  i believe he is just saying it would be nice to know all of what ll uses to build windows with, including anything extra from the dependancies that might not be listed anywhere
  Ima Mechanique  Last 2-3 days I've been doing a lot of research into differences between VC Express/Full version and automation and it seems COntinuous Integration works better without VS installed on the windows builder.
07:33  Oz Linden  no, our build farm is set up for 2010 now - has to be
  Ima Mechanique  So I wonder if that's the case with TC and in general knowing the actual environment might be a big help
  Oz Linden  ah... well, my intent is that we get the public setup instructions to as closely as possible match the internal system setup
07:34  Ima Mechanique  being "set up for" does not necessarily mean installing Visual Studio
  Oz Linden  In the course of setting up the new public TC, I'll double check that
  Wolfpup  yes it would help the OS devs if we could closer configure our systems to LL build system
  Ima Mechanique  only needs the compilers and some support proggies
  Oz Linden  I may even have to borrow a box and put windows on it and try it myself
  draconis.neurocam  hehe
07:35  Ima Mechanique  lol
  draconis.neurocam  oz, do you have any idea if the other teams that have beta viewers will pick up the autobuild changes any time soon?
  Oz Linden  My wife just got a new job and will be using Linux for the first time.... she's anxious about it, but I'll finally be able to help her with any system issues she has
07:36  draconis.neurocam  nice
  Wolfpup  Oz one thing is certian Windows Os devs can use msbuild from the 7.1SDK for the cmd line in both an express and pro VS
  Ima Mechanique  depending on what she's using it for I don't imagine she really need worry
  Oz Linden  I don't know yet what flavor here new company uses...
07:37  Ima Mechanique  off course, useability depends so much on the distro ;-)
07:38  Oz Linden  I'd really love it if we could make the same build commands work for both express and non-express users, and both Lindens and OsDevs, but I think incredibuild gets in the way
  Ima Mechanique  I was trying to set up a environment on Ubunto I can do all my WebDev on.
  Wolfpup  the basics will be the same no mater what the flavor of linux is is just more advanced thigs will be handled differenty
07:39  Ima Mechanique  I'm not sure incredibuild is any impediment
  Oz Linden  well, it's a goal... we'll see how close we can come
  draconis.neurocam  also, about windows stuff, i noticed there is a service pack 1 for visual studio 2010, that i had to get manually, didnt show up in windows update, and it isnt listed on the things to use page, just something i noticed
  Ima Mechanique  oh, do you mean in terms of reducing to ONLY 3 configurations?
  Wolfpup  Oz as part of testin the public build fram set all the windows settings to use msbuild instead of devenv
07:40  Oz Linden  well, I don't think we can completely separate the configurations because of KDU (and soon Havok)
  Ima Mechanique  Wolf, you mean the LL build too?
  Oz Linden  but it would be nice if the build commands themselves were the same
  Wolfpup  yes
07:41    i think merov at one point was going to test that
  Ima Mechanique  hmm, well Oz, you'll have to persuade TC to switch over to msbuild. I'm not sure they'll want to ;-)
    from they're point of view, Why fix something that ain't broke?
07:42  Oz Linden  Well, the real reason is that when I get a contribution I'd like to know that it has been tested building it the way we will build it
    one unified set of bugs :-)
07:43  Ima Mechanique  you might be able to sell it on that. Why have two layers of build management, TC and incrdibuild
    but if they're using any of the incredibuild extras to improve performance or versatiltiy then that's the answer
07:44  Oz Linden  I don't really know, unfortunately
07:45    will have to do some experiments....
  Ima Mechanique  it may originally have been used to make life simpler, because msbuild couldn't handle C/C++ builds
    if that's the case, it's not needed any more
07:48    Oz any idea when you can look at open-50 again?
07:49  Oz Linden  it's high on my list for this week... in fact, will move to STORM so I can import it to this sprint
  Ima Mechanique  okay
  Oz Linden  I've got a lot of meetings today, but I should get back to it no later than tomorrow
  draconis.neurocam  ah
07:50  Ima Mechanique  I'll take a look at my end to see if I've missed anything we talked about earlier
  Oz Linden  thanks
    well, if we don't have any other topics today, I'd just as soon get a start on my sprint planning....
07:51  Ima Mechanique  I'm actually using the xml for my builds, finding it easier than having to add all the switches to the command line again ;-)
  draconis.neurocam  real quick, did the last items you merged hit the build servers oz, the ones from today?
  Oz Linden  you know that you can make your own copy of autobuild.xml and point to it with an environment variable ?
    those merges are building now, draconis
07:52  Ima Mechanique  no I didn't, I tried using the config switch but it broke
  draconis.neurocam  ah alright
  Oz Linden  looks like they'll be done in 40-50 minutes
  draconis.neurocam  nods
  Ima Mechanique  what's the env variable Oz?
  Ima Mechanique  sweet.
07:53    does the original file have to exist still?
  Oz Linden  and you can specify the configuration to build in AUTOBUILD_CONFIGURATION
  Ima Mechanique  good, cuz with the command line switch it kept falling back to the original, and choked if I removed it
  Oz Linden  those provide defaults for the --config-file and --configuration arguments respectively
07:54  Ima Mechanique  hmm, I'll try it. but those are what I had problems using
07:55  Oz Linden  they work right on Mac and Linux, I'm sure
07:56    if the environment variables are inherited correctly on Windows, they should work there too
    Hi Opensource
  oobscure  hey verybody
07:57  draconis.neurocam  hello opensource
  Ima Mechanique  hey OpenSource
  Eddi Decosta  hi opensource :)
07:59  Ima Mechanique  just testing now ;-)
  draconis.neurocam  have a good day oz
  Oz Linden  I'm getting the Open Development Candidates pseudo-versions cleaned up in STORM and VWR (will probably move them all to VWR)
  Ima Mechanique  damn, everything's relative to the xml file
  Oz Linden  eventually, those will be a great place to look for work we'd like open devs to take on
08:00  Office Orb  Your timer has expired!
  Ima Mechanique  thought I could put my copy outside the source :-)
  Oz Linden  no, you can't
    but you could make a copy and then configure hg to ignore it
  oobscure  (( ..just a small reminder about my request to a more structured approach to labels in JIRA ))
  Oz Linden  in fact, it might be a good idea for us to come up with a convention for that and check in the ignore
  Ima Mechanique  doing that now ;-)
08:01  Oz Linden  yes, I'll reply to that, oobscure....
  oobscure  thanks!
  Ima Mechanique  can't use that
    well not easily
  Oz Linden  I'm having a bunch of internal discussions about VWR policies - once those are clear, I'll get some public guidance about labels out there
08:03  Ima Mechanique  sorted ;-)
    labels for...
  oobscure  where do I find the date a certain Sprint is due to?
08:04  Oz Linden  we stopped putting those on the Snowstorm calendar a while back... I'll get them put back
    but it should be in the jira....
08:07  Wolfpup  Oz you relize storm-83 will be a PIA to implament?
  Office Orb

STORM-83 As a user who cannot type of spell to save their life, I want dynamic spell check for everything I type, so I a little bit more literate. :)

  Oz Linden  fixed the Sprint 14 date (Apr 22 is the end)
  oobscure  ah i see oz, thanks
  draconis.neurocam  wolfpup its in phoenix, and when it was in emerald, it was indeed a pita to write
08:08  Oz Linden  Sure, Wolfpup.... but you of all people should appreciate it (and me too!)
  draconis.neurocam  there were days all text in the ui was underlined in red
    not fun
  Wolfpup  < has learnt to read typoneesses :p
08:09  draconis.neurocam  or red, and not just underlined
  oobscure  "sprint end" means ... on that day, fixes get into viewer development?
  Oz Linden  no, fixes can be integrated any time during the sprint when they are ready
  Wolfpup  that means storm-1098 should be going in now as it was in the last sprint
  Office Orb

STORM-1098 Debug setting ShowNetStats has wrong description

  oobscure  oh , right
08:10  Oz Linden  yeah, I missed that one over the weekend, but it should go in shortly...
08:11    anyway, I'm over time and need to do some work before the sprint planning meeting this afternoon
  oobscure  I gotta go ... I updated
  Oz Linden  tty all later
  Office Orb  End transcription
  oobscure  and
    bye Oz!
    bye everybody