Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-04-18

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07:00  Office Orb  mail_to set to
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  Wolfpup  hey Jonathan
  Oz Linden  Hi everyone
  Morgaine Dinova  I think we can objective about the new physics here, no need for the giggle factor. Make something else wobble if breasts are a problem.
    How's it going Oz?
07:01  Oz Linden  now there's an interesting point to enter a conversation....
  Morgaine Dinova  :P
  Discrete Dreamscape  o.o
07:03  Oz Linden  Looks like we have only one pretty easy looking issue in OPEN this morning, which I just ack'ed
    so our agenda is open ....
07:05  Discrete Dreamscape  Is this supposed to be limited to OPEN issues? o:
  Oz Linden  anything open source related is fair game
07:06  Discrete Dreamscape  The Linux bug I reported a couple weeks back is a little bit goofier than I thought and could use some comments from.. anyone else who uses Linux.
  Oz Linden  got an issue id?
  Discrete Dreamscape  STORM-1122, code review at
  Office Orb

STORM-1122 Linux viewer sucks up file descriptors, stops loading content and crashes

  Discrete Dreamscape
    The little change I made is not really a solution as it stands.
07:07  Oz Linden  it sounds like it's some improvement, though, no?
  Discrete Dreamscape  It is.. although it destroys Unicode support.
  Kopile Hallard  /
  Oz Linden  oh... that's not good
    Boroondas would never let me hear the end of it
07:08  Kopile Hallard  if I could compile the viewer on linux I would give you feedback Discrete
  Discrete Dreamscape  On the other two platforms, it's fine for them not to search fallback lists, because they're generally counted on to have full unicode between the various fonts installed, and they're clearly listed in fonts.xml.
    But on Linux, no such fonts are listed, I guess because there are no standard fonts to assume users have, or.. whatever.
07:09  Kopile Hallard  can never really assume what fonts someone will have, which is why web browsers specify a family and not a font
07:10    websites*
  Discrete Dreamscape  There are three options as far as I see. 1) Someone fixes the really hair font fallback code, 2) A set of supporting fonts is determined to exist on most systems and added to fonts.xml, or 3) a set of fonts for this is inclued with the viewer.
07:11  Kopile Hallard  a set of open source fonts included with the viewer would be safest imho, that way you can always be sure someone has those fonts
  Oz Linden  Would including fonts with the viewer really work, though?
  Discrete Dreamscape  It would definitely work if they're defined in fonts.xml for Linux
  Oz Linden  could we do it in a way that put them where the viewer would use them without messing with system fonts?
  Discrete Dreamscape  The problem there, though, is finding the fonts and the fact that decent Unicode support is rather large.
07:12  Kopile Hallard  also it adds the ability to ensure fonts render the same irrelevent of OS
  Oz Linden  making the downloads significantly larger is never an easy sell
  Discrete Dreamscape  That's true. It would be ideal if size could be kept down while making unicode support universal.
    Not everyone even has MS Arial Unicode, which is assumed on Windows.
  Morgaine Dinova  Would it work regardless of sizing? Remember that we have everything from smartphones to wall displays.
07:13  Oz Linden  Even if we did include fonts, I would not want to do it for Mac or Windows
  Kopile Hallard  prehaps just enough to fit a certian standard of unicode, like utf16 or something
  Discrete Dreamscape  I see
  Kopile Hallard  why not for mac or windows?
  Oz Linden  wishes we had smartphones, or even tablets
  Discrete Dreamscape  Well, uh.. if your smartphone can run SL, somehow I doubt Unicode is your major concern. d;
  Oz Linden  because we don't have a significant font problem there, so there's no motivation that justifies larger downloads
  Discrete Dreamscape  nods.
07:14    I don't know what guidelines, if any, exist for figuring out how much support is needed.
  Kopile Hallard  guess, if you are happy with the msfonts
  Discrete Dreamscape  But it would be nice to have it in there by default..
07:15  Morgaine Dinova  I would err on the side of "download less", rather than more.
  Kopile Hallard  I know jjacke speant a lot of time with imprudence trying to iron out font issues
  Oz Linden  Have you tried to figure out why the viewer is trying to use so many fonts?
07:16    why isn't this just a question of fixing the search?
  Discrete Dreamscape  Oh yes, I talked it over with a friend.. apparently it makes a list of every possible fallback font it could want, then loads each of those for all possible style variations and size variations that the viewer uses, or something like that.
    And the code is unfamiliar to me, or I would already have patched it. >:
07:17  Oz Linden  how many different fonts does the viewer really need? Mine only seems to be using one basic font in a couple of sizes, with bold and italic variations
07:18  Discrete Dreamscape  For everything except Unicode, the viewer already provides the DejaVu family, which is minimal and nice. For everything else, I would suspect 5 or less on top of that, loaded a few times over for their variations.
  Wolfpup  Oz that sound like it might be an issue in the font generation on linuix systems similar to the issue we had when switching to then new build system where the fons were rendered the wronr size
  Kopile Hallard  pretty sure most distributions of linux have dajavu
07:19  Oz Linden  Maybe the thing to do is to throw out the fallback searching altogether, and if the font specified in fonts.xml is not found, pop up a font selector and make the user choose from those on the system that have the right combination of properties.
  Discrete Dreamscape  o.0
    I can't say I'd be very partial to doing that.. d;
07:20  Kopile Hallard  a lot of users know nothing about fonts
  Wolfpup  or sugest the user get the font
    and include instruction on how to get them
  Morgaine Dinova  grep var.cache.fontconfig | wc -l


  Kopile Hallard  or wgets the font for the user and uses it?
  Oz Linden  you don't have to know much about fonts to pick from a list of lines that say "The quick brown fox...."
  Discrete Dreamscape  That's getting unfortunately close to the stuff I did in Emerald.. 'hey, download this thing here,' and it was always not fun.
07:21  Morgaine Dinova  Ie. Impy has file descriptors to 19 font files open.
  Kopile Hallard  yes you do when talking about unicode
  Oz Linden  I'd bet there's an existing font picker widget out there somewhere that we could incorporate
  Discrete Dreamscape  egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | less
07:22  Morgaine Dinova  I specifically wanted the ones in font cache though
  Discrete Dreamscape  oic!
07:23  Morgaine Dinova  egrep -o '[^ ]*font[^ ]*' | sort | uniq -c | wc -l


  Discrete Dreamscape  Well.. since I don't have any power over what is included with the viewer, nor a guideline for what kind of support Linden Lab wants, I'll try fixing the fallback code still..
    That's not bad Morgaine.
07:24    That's what I have right now too, with zero Unicode support.
  Kopile Hallard  "the quick brown fox" does not show me what Japanese Characters render as, for example.
  Oz Linden  I can't imagine that there's any good reason to open that many files and keep them open.... I'd make fixing that your central idea :-)
  Discrete Dreamscape  >_<
07:25    I'll try! I wish I had more of a clue what it's doing.
  Oz Linden  so you make or find a better picker that let's you specify your own test line
    Have you looked at 'hg blame' to see who wrote it?
07:26  Discrete Dreamscape  I think it's pretty ancient.. that's a good idea; I'll try finding it.
  Wolfpup  Kanji can use one character for many words
07:27  Oz Linden  If you need help tracking down the author, let me know... I may have address data you won't
  Discrete Dreamscape  Cool, much appreciated.
  oobscure  Oz: I did lot of testing about VWR-25506 in the last days and got some interesting results. Could you give it a look? I'd need to know if ...should I repeat the tests I did - or should I consider different scenarios? for example, a different (higher? lower?...) number of items
  Office Orb

VWR-25506 Investigate restrictions on storing and exchanging inventory items within prims and notecards

  Wolfpup  fr instance here is the kanji for the quick brown fox >動きの速い茶色のキツネ
07:28  Oz Linden  I saw your notes oo..
  Kopile Hallard  chuckles, unfortunately that doesn't show all the thousand possibilities of kunji though
07:31  Oz Linden  I'm going to ask for some Lindens to have a look at your findings, oobscure
  Wolfpup  oz in reference to open-52 im going to make change sets for each of the files to be deleted so that if they need to be reinstated later the proper change set can just be reveresed
  Office Orb

OPEN-52 Superfluous source files

  Oz Linden  good idea
07:32  oobscure  ok. so I'll wait and no more testing until I hear news.
  Oz Linden  when you've got a repo set up, let me know and I'll run a test TeamCity build
  Wolfpup  well i have the base repository now
    just nothing commited to it yet
07:33  Oz Linden  good
  Wolfpup  hav not had the time since i set up the repository
  Discrete Dreamscape  Seems like the font thing was wirtten by Moss, with small updates by CG and Tofu.. showed up in 3e2f24235be3
07:34  Wolfpup  im going to use notepad++'s search in files feature to find all references to each of the files as i delet it
  Discrete Dreamscape  Or merged by Moss, I guess.
  Jonathan  Wolfpup, you will have to delete #include lines that reference .h files you eliminate
07:35  Wolfpup  i know and that is why im going to use the search funcetion in notepad++ to help with this
    it will make it quicker
  Oz Linden  I don't know if he's around much - try 'Tofu Buzzard' in-world
07:36  Discrete Dreamscape  nods.
  Wolfpup  instead of having to multiple build runs for each file
  Oz Linden  Moss == Tofu
07:37  Discrete Dreamscape  Ahhh
  Wolfpup  Oz i have a question for you in reference to open-9
  Office Orb

OPEN-9 Generate Logs in Opensource Envrionment on Windows

  Oz Linden  shoot, Wolfpup
07:38  Wolfpup  when you do your local build it is only on mac right?
  Oz Linden  yes, I don't have a windows dev box at the moment
  Wolfpup  do you keep a record of any particular build run?
07:39  Oz Linden  don't know what you mean... windows build logs?
  Wolfpup  or just a build log in general that shows the progress of the build
  Jonathan  Wolfpup, are you talking about having your autobuild compile go to both the screen and to a file?
07:40  Wolfpup  yes
  Jonathan  I think you already have a workaround for that, or you could use the IDE.
  Wolfpup  C:\cygwin\bin\tee <build log name> to the end of the cmd line to do that
07:41  Discrete Dreamscape  tee is a wonderful tool. ;D
  Wolfpup  but it would be nice and easier if that could be done automaticaly and then each dev would have it avail
07:42  Oz Linden  you mean have the build by default create a log file of the command outputs?
  Wolfpup  both internaly to LL for local build and externaly for OS devs
    and then compilers output
  Jonathan  Oz, that is what the IDE does -- wolfpup is used to what vs2005 did automatically
07:43  Oz Linden  I certainly would not want that in my builds....
    terminal scrollback is all I need as a rule
  Wolfpup  it is a seperat file that could be stored else where like the build tree and not with the sorce its self
07:44    but how far back can you scroll?
  Jonathan  wolfpup, you can adjust the scrollback buffer
  Wolfpup  currently the output from a windows build is nearly 30K lines of text
07:45  Jonathan  dunno if you can adjust it that much though
  Oz Linden  I have mine set to infinite (which is of course limited to the size of my disk, but I don't have to manage it)
  Wolfpup  yes you can but it ends up eating memory
07:46    and im trying to think of those like me with limited memory
  Oz Linden  that sounds like a perfect thing to build an alias or shell wrapper function for....
  Discrete Dreamscape  Windows is verbose!.. I have 10k in my scrollback on Linux and I don't fill it..
  Jonathan  Oz, is there any update on that build farm you were getting set up that would let us send up a repo to be compiled?
07:47  Oz Linden  We're setting up the router for it this week
  Wolfpup  Oz that was what i was thinking as make it an option as part of the autobuild system
  Morgaine Dinova  Discrete: we seem to do things the same way. :-) All my building is done though a capture script too.
  Kopile Hallard  may I point out how ironic it is that the majority of people compiling v2 are using a non opensource os
  Jonathan  so, it will be available in the near future? (woo hoo)
  Kopile Hallard  do you just redirect output morgaine?
  Oz Linden  why is that ironic? most of the people using it are on non-open os'es too
07:48  Kopile Hallard  depends what you mean by use and people
  Discrete Dreamscape  Linux is a pain in the ass. I just know how to avoid all the problems with it. I know a lot of my friends can't use it for various reasons. d:
  Morgaine Dinova  Kopi: like Discrete, it's tee'd
  Kopile Hallard  the majority of web servers are unix based
  Wolfpup  \o/ OS dev build farm
07:49  Oz Linden  As big a fan of Linux as I am, it's not even close to ready for mass market level ease of use for non-geeks
  Morgaine Dinova  Lots of things are not ideal in Linux, and one shouldn't be a fanboi. That's best left to Mac and Windows faithful. :-)
  Discrete Dreamscape  Yep. >:
  Kopile Hallard  lol
07:50  Wolfpup  i 'cut my teeth' on linux so to speak
  Oz Linden  I'm going to make some progress on the build farm this week; at the very least the network I need set up for the Mac build agents will be installed
  Morgaine Dinova  From criticism comes progress, From fanboiism comes slavery to a master and stagnation to suit business interests.
07:51  Discrete Dreamscape  Will the scripts and whatnot that operate builds be open source? I'm curious to know how you guys will do it. d;
  Oz Linden  I don't know when it'll be ready for trials, though... there are many moving parts, and some of the folks I'll need help from to finish setting it all up are pretty busy these days
    They are open now
  Wolfpup  Discrete the autobuild system is OS
07:52  Discrete Dreamscape  Autobuild is, but.. wait, is there some stuff I'm missing? o.o
  Oz Linden
  Discrete Dreamscape  I have and use autobuild, but.. Ahhhh
    I see
  Wolfpup  all you have to do is get the autobuild repository and then run setup install and your good to go
  Jonathan  autobuild is used in the build farm too
  Oz Linden  those are the scripts used by our TeamCity builds
  Jonathan  no need to even run setup install -- just access it in the bin directory
  Discrete Dreamscape  Nifty!
07:53  Oz Linden  once the build system is set up, CG is going to do an in-world class for us on it
  Discrete Dreamscape  Awesome.
  Jonathan  will there be some web interface where we point it to a repo we want compiled?
  Morgaine Dinova  That's cool Oz. CG++
  Kopile Hallard  D
  Discrete Dreamscape  Autobuild in general confuses the crap out of me right now, it's kinda clunky IMO.
  Oz Linden  Yes... it will be an instance of TeamCity
07:54    it's pretty good stuff
  Kopile Hallard is clunky for sure
    but seems like it could do a lot
  Oz Linden  setting up a viewer build takes a little doing, but once you get used to it it's not bad
  Discrete Dreamscape  nods.
  Kopile Hallard  will these 'classes' cover 64bit builds?
  Oz Linden  and you get a lot for it
07:55  Jonathan  I have had to make a number of hackish changes to get autobuild+vs2010 express to work
  Discrete Dreamscape  I totally gave up on 64 bit before.. After spending like 2 hours compiling llqtwebkit once to end up with no working media.. meh.
07:56    5 minutes! I've gotta run, see yas!
  Morgaine Dinova  Giving up after 2 hours is a low threshold. :P Sympathies :-)
  Kopile Hallard  you could probably pull a copy of llqtwebkit from kokua
  Discrete Dreamscape  d;
  Morgaine Dinova  Cya Discrete
07:57  Kopile Hallard  already offline :/
  Oz Linden  The build farm will not be set up for 64 bit builds
  Jonathan  When I set up to compile last year it took me 3 tries and I don't know how many days to finally get things right, so don't give up too easily
  Oz Linden  but it's possible to do them now by hand
    I'm going to work on the wiki docs on that some more
  Kopile Hallard  thanks
  Oz Linden  basically you'll have to download and build local packages for each of the dependencies
  Wolfpup  i hope he dose the class when i can be around
07:58  Kopile Hallard  so a standalone build?
  Oz Linden  I'm going to get Torley to record it (or teach me how to record IW video,perhaps)
  Morgaine Dinova  It's always been possible to do 64-bit builds, right back to when the viewer was released as open source. And lots of people are doing so (I used to too). So why is the company shying away from actually releasing 64-bit?
  Oz Linden  no... standalone is different and harder
  Kopile Hallard  ah
  oobscure  GLC for taking video on SL/Linux works fine. lt me know if you need help with that
    Also...Oz, I saw you reported problems with Favorites in Login screen -- STORM-1145 -- is that fixed now for you? because on my Linux installation, it keeps happening. But Seth can't reproduce my steps. I wonder if there's something wrong in my system
  Office Orb

STORM-1145 Changes to Favorites are not reflected on the login locations menu

  Wolfpup  Kopile not realy you can use the file:/// method to point to your new packages once they are made
  Jonathan  Oz, please get someone to record that class -- having that for on-demand viewing might be helpful
07:59  Oz Linden  when you build a library with autobuilld, you get a package (basically a tarball)
  Kopile Hallard  heh?
  Oz Linden  that package can then be used as an input to any other autobuild, without installing it on the system
  Kopile Hallard  ahh cool
08:00  Office Orb  Your timer has expired!
  Oz Linden  so if you build each of the dependencies once, you should then be able to build viewers using them
  Kopile Hallard  cool
  Wolfpup  Kopile i use the file url method for fmod one i made the needed package
  Morgaine Dinova  Back in Robla's days, we even used to discuss what was needed to get 64-bit releases on the road with Philip present at the meetings. Dunno why it's all regressed.
  Oz Linden  it should be slightly easier than it is, but it's not nearly as hard as getting all the dependencies installed on an arbitrary linux distro
08:01  Jonathan  Would there be any advantage in having a 64 bit windows version?
  Kopile Hallard  RAM
  Morgaine Dinova  ram
  Jonathan  That might be the driving force for a general conversion to 64 bit
  Wolfpup  not realy Jonathan as windows automatacily handles the 64/32 transition
  Oz Linden  It's just a priority/cost thing
08:02    eventually it will happen, but don't ask me when eventually is :-)
    I've got to go folks.... thanks for stopping by
  Office Orb  End transcription