Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-16

07:00	Ardy Lay	Hi
	Oz Linden	hi everyone
	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	Office Orb	mail_to set to oz@lindenlab.com
		Start transcription to oz@lindenlab.com
		Transcript will be sent to: oz@lindenlab.com
07:01	Oz Linden	we seem to have one new OPEN issue this morning... open-65
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65 OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
	Ardy Lay	It's kinda fun to travel to other people's places in SL and hear some of the same bird calls I hear outside my RL home.
07:02	Oz Linden	I love those birds....
07:03		I've got a few of them ; they're made by Sandry Logan
	Ardy Lay	tries to understand that JIRA issue.
	Oz Linden	I could use some help with that myself...
		it seems unlikely that the lib was built by 2005 on our servers, but I can try to find that build....
07:04	Jonathan	I think Nicky is saying that when he tries to build that lib it uses the wrong compiler
	Ardy Lay	Well, I don't have six thoudand things installed and path variables of disturbing proportions so I cannot replicate stuff like that.
07:05	Oz Linden	is looking at our build log....
	Ima Mechanique	hmm gonna try it myself
07:06	Jonathan	There was some talk about this in IRC yesterday
	Ardy Lay	Hehe, guess I am lazy, just using the precompiled libraries.
	Jonathan	<NickyP> Is there a way to specify the build program in 3p-ogvorbis autobuild configure / build. mine defaults to VS2005 / devenv. I am runninh from a Setting SDK environment relative to C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v7.1
07:07	Wolfpup	that could be an issue in the autobuild or build.sh for that repository
07:09	Ima Mechanique	most of the 3p-* stuff do not really use the autobuild.xml
07:10	Wolfpup	i know they use cygwin on windows
	Oz Linden	it may take me a while to figure out if our build did the same thing, but I'm going to be surprised if it did
	Moy	Cygwin can cause quite a bit of issues when you're using that env to make the build files
07:11	Ima Mechanique	og vorbis bugged out on me
	Oz Linden	the assumption of most of the builds is that you're environment is set up to use 2010 by default, I suspect
07:12		if that's not true yet, then you should probably change it
	Ima Mechanique	trying to build 3p-ogvorbis I get an error for devenv.com, which isn't available of course on Express
07:13	Oz Linden	ah, well, that's different
	Ima Mechanique	if that's hardcoded into the build-cmd.sh I can probably fix it
	Oz Linden	we've worked around that in the main viewer build, but I suspect most of the 3p-* builds expect devenv
07:14	Ima Mechanique	it's mostly autobuild that expects it Oz.
		when it's coded into the build-cmd.sh for the repo it's fixable ;-)
07:15	Oz Linden	If someone can propose a general fix that auto-detects express vs other editions and does the right thing, we'll review it
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I thought there was a solution that'd work on both express and non-express? If so, no detection needed.
	Oz Linden	but the community will have to come up with it, because we pay for our VS
07:16	Ima Mechanique	hmm, not really possible. only workable solution I can see is if TC moves to using msbuild instead of devenv.
	Oz Linden	Yes, that would be ok too, obviously
	Ima Mechanique	boroondas, that's the msbuild way
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Yeah, that's what I meant. Are there any drawbacks in using msbuild only?
07:17	Ima Mechanique	none that I know of. We need to talk to someone on the TC side of stuff to hash out possibilities
		Brad probably
	Oz Linden	or Alain
		or more likely both
	Ima Mechanique	yeah
07:18	Oz Linden	whatever solution we come up with has to also be compatible with Incredibuild
	Ima Mechanique	Incredibuild is actually separate Oz. so not a problem
		it has it's own checks in the code which then run custom commands
07:19	Oz Linden	in my experience, when it comes to build environments, almost nothing is a completely independent choice :-)
07:20	Ima Mechanique	true, and nothing is as simple as it appears ;-)
	Oz Linden	Is there someone here that uses VS Express that can try to repro this issue from Nicky?
07:21		I'll ask on the list, I guess....
	Ima Mechanique	I can try, not sure I have a close enough environment though
07:22	Oz Linden	just check it out and try to build it...
	draconis.neurocam	i would imagine if someone were to try to, they would need 2005 installed, which i do not
	Ima Mechanique	I don't have 2005 installed, only 2008 and 2010
	Oz Linden	welll, if you don't, then certainly don't install it for this :-)
		it may be that the answer is "uninstall 2005 and try again"....
07:23	Ardy Lay	Heh
		Yeah, I clean out the old stuff.
	Oz Linden	As I've said before, compatibility with the old environment is not a goal
		in fact, I might go so far as to say it's an un-goal
07:24		anyway ....
		other topics ?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	came here late. Is the issue in question when using 2005 or when using 2010 while 2005 is installed, too?
	Jonathan	Oz, being able to compile TPVs that need 2005 would be a concern to me
	Oz Linden	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65
	Office Orb	OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
	Jonathan	There is probably some less drastic work-around
07:25	Oz Linden	TPVs that are that far behind are going to get un-interesting pretty fast
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I think it'd be nice to allow for several VS versions to be installed, so people don't need different machines to work on several different viewers.
	Zi Ree	Virtualization ;)
	Oz Linden	like I said, I'll test proposed solutions, but we won't spend time on devising them
07:26		good thought, Zi
	Moy	That requires another Windows license though, for Windows users, that is
	Zi Ree	Well ... yeah ;)
07:27	Oz Linden	There's a lot of new stuff coming that is going to make 1.x code base viewers obsolete, and we're not talking about the distant future
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Well, non-Windows users don't have problems with different VS versions, anyway :-P
	The Raptor	Virtual Systems
		?
		or visual studio?
	Oz Linden	the latter
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	yep
	The Raptor	thanks
07:28	Oz Linden	Has anyone looked at the storm-1100 viewer?
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100 STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
	Zi Ree	virtualizes to compile for different glibc versions on Linux.
07:29	Oz Linden	Keeping up with new GPUs is an area I hope that open source can help with; it's a problem particularly amenable to a crowdsource solution
	Ardy Lay	Oz, I'll try it but doesn't look like it will like my GTX 570
	Oz Linden	do you have the exact string?
07:30		(the logging on that version is better)
	Zi Ree	We try to keep ours up to date.
	Wolfpup	Oz i tried that viewer on my system and it crashes on start and i did post my logs to the issue
	Ardy Lay	NVIDIA GTX 570 .*NVIDIA.*GeForce GTX 57.* 3 1
07:31	Oz Linden	thanks wolfpup.... on my list to look at today
		no, I meant the id string from the driver, not the expression from gpu_table
	Ardy Lay	Oh, that's just what I put in the table to keep the viewer from clobbering my settings.
07:32	Zi Ree	I wonder if it was possible to display the string and a message as a dialog if it's not found and send it to a server to collect them.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	+Zi
07:33	Oz Linden	My idea is that once this issue is integrated, I'll create a 'New GPU' issue due in a few months, and ask people to create subtasks under it for any un-or-mis-recognized GPU
	Zi Ree	"Your graphics card: XXX YYY ZZZ was not identified by our list. Would you like to send this information to our database?"
	Oz Linden	They are already sent to us
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ah
	Oz Linden	they're in the stats packet
	Zi Ree	Ooh, okay!
07:34	Jonathan	I think the trouble is that someone has to categorize each card and add it to the table?
	Oz Linden	that's where the values in indra/newview/tests/gpus_seen.txt (in my storm-1100 branch) come from
	Ardy Lay	GeForce GTX 570/PCI/SSE2 <- This?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Would be nice if the viewer could auto-tune itself without any knowledge of the graphic card.
	Zi Ree	Runa test and record FPS you mean?
	The Raptor	shame there isn't a way to detect if a card meets x requirements
07:35	Moy	You can easily find out if certain shader modes are there
	Jonathan	I saw a suggestion once to have the graphic settings auto adjust to maintain a certain FPS
	Oz Linden	You're right, Ardy... that's not recognized
	Moy	Find out how many cores, and what speed each core is, that's a simple way to see if a user can handle low/med/ultra settings, and basic shaders
	Oz Linden	you think it should be a class 3?
	Ardy Lay	Yes
07:36		In SL the GTX570 and GTX580 are performing identically, after I mess with the GPU table.
	Oz Linden	I'll get that in then before I integrate... thanks
		This is a perfect example
07:37		There's no way we can actually test all the cards out there....
	The Raptor	of course
	Jonathan	Is that gpu file downloaded after it is updated or does it require a new viewer install?
	Wolfpup	the viewer on my linux laptop misregisters the gpu Which is an intel gpu
	The Raptor	ahh same
07:38	Zi Ree	I think it needs a new viewer installation.
	Oz Linden	The table is included in the viewer
		in theory at least, we can override that table though
	Zi Ree	Maybe it could be made to load dynamically from the web?
07:39	Oz Linden	When the viewer starts, it builds a url from its own version number and tries to fetch a new gpu_table
	The Raptor	hmm
	Oz Linden	so if we needed to badly enough, we could put a new table at that url
		but that's not normally used
07:40	The Raptor	just as a thought, instead of grabbing a new gpu table, it could be made to check if the gpu is listed
		shrugs
	Oz Linden	The gpu recognition should only affect your default settings
07:41		and in a few cases, I think, whether or not certain things like shadows are available
	Tillie Ariantho	I hate new installes resetting my graphic settings each time.
		installs
	Zi Ree	And number of local lights.
	Oz Linden	basically, it's the number of shaders, if I understand it correctly
07:42	Moy	The number of local lights aswell
	Zi Ree	still needs to get more into the render side of things.
	The Raptor	I thought the number of local lights was always limited to 8 or 9
	Zi Ree	8 is the maximum, 6 usable for builders.
	Moy	8 openGL light sources
		Yes
	Tillie Ariantho	Local lights ... there is still no switch back in in the 2.x clients to disable them ...
	The Raptor	yeah
07:43	Zi Ree	But if your card gets classed as class 0 ,it wiill only use 2 lights.
		2 for builders.
	Oz Linden	I thought we put in a way to disable local lights?
	Han Shot First	it's coupled with basic shaders right now
	The Raptor	debug? :p
07:44		ahh
	Tillie Ariantho	Oz: Which dev build? I didnt find it anywhere.
	Han Shot First	so you can't disable them if you have basic shaders enabled
	Zi Ree	I have "Local Lights: Maximum / Limited / None".
	Oz Linden	ah... it was 'Render Attached Lights' (Develop menu)
	Tillie Ariantho	sucks. so if I am forced to use a 2.x client I can stop taking photos, cause local lights mess up everything. great.
07:45	Kitteh Scientist	Attached != local lights
	Oz Linden	hates features hidden in the Develop menu
	Kitteh Scientist	local light can also be non-attached
	Jonathan	Tillie, there is probably some debug setting you can use
	Han Shot First	i don't like that the option was removed from preferences > graphics either
	Tillie Ariantho	Jonathan: didnt find any.
	Moy	The disabling of attached lights has been there for years though
	Oz Linden	yes, I know... I was just confusing them in my cluttered memory
	draconis.neurocam	i dont like that the feature to debug sculpt image dimensions got axed in the conversion to 2.x i would have thought it would be something nice to have
	Zi Ree	I see it, but I am on Firestorm. Not sure if V2 has it, too.
07:46	Moy	Firestorm is based on an old version of 2.x from last year
	Oz Linden	don't know what that was, draconis
	Moy	I think it's 2.3, or 2.4
	Zi Ree	2.5.1
	draconis.neurocam	i made a jira lemme find it
07:47	Zi Ree	Err, 2..5.2 even
		2.5.1 is our own version number ;)
	draconis.neurocam	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25489
	Office Orb	VWR-25489 Sculpt dimension meta-data view missing from 2.x, was possible to see in 1.23
07:49	draconis.neurocam	its one of a very small set of base features that i actually miss from older viewers
	Oz Linden	might that be covered by Develop->Render Metadata->Texture Area ?
07:50		(tried turning that on here... remarkably cluttered display)
	Moy	That's surface area though, not the sculpt image dimentions
	draconis.neurocam	doesnt appear to be, i get different values than expected
07:51	Oz Linden	if you can get an implementation that would go in that menu, adding it would probably not be controversial
	draconis.neurocam	it wouldnt be me writing it from scratch though, it would probably just be a copy paste job from older source, which is licensed differently
07:52	Oz Linden	if it was in 1.23 or Snowglobe, we can use it
	draconis.neurocam	interesting
	Jonathan	Draconis, will you take on that project?
	draconis.neurocam	it was in both
07:53		jonathan ill look into it, its something that really bugs me, so i have a good amount of drive to do it
	Oz Linden	Classic open source motivation :-)
07:54	Wolfpup	ya just like me and the date stamping of chat logs :p
	Oz Linden	exactly
		(and which I very much appreciate, incidentally)
07:55	Wolfpup	oz so far the work on chop-609 dose not seem to be helping OS build times at least for me
	Tillie Ariantho	I'd totally like a local light thats attached to the HUD and illuminates surroundings for the owner only. ^^
07:56	Moy	Make a script that has an object follow your camera
	Zi Ree	Increase your gamma value ;)
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	well, some of that is just preparation for steps that should help, I guess? Though CHOP-609 is directed at LL's build times, I guess.
	Kitteh Scientist	if i write a list of things in 1.23 or Snowglobe that would be usefull in v2. will you read the list?
07:57	Oz Linden	I read everything anyone sends me
	Kitteh Scientist	:)
	Wolfpup	Boroondas those should also affect those working on wnidows in an OS evvironment
	Oz Linden	our build times for Windows have gotten a lot better
07:58		cut by around half
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Well, but the bottle neck on your machine might be a different than on LL's machines. Depends on the hardware setup and whatnot.
	Jonathan	is chop-609 in v-d yet?
	Oz Linden	but I don't know how much of that is the software changes and how much is upgrading our build servers
	Wolfpup	Oz mine are still @ 2.25hrs for full build and that was after my pull friday night from viewer-development
	Oz Linden	integrated this morning Jonathan
	Zi Ree	More RAM and more cores help most.
07:59	Wolfpup	some of chop-609 was in friday night
	Ardy Lay	SSD doesn't hurt either but may not help much. I didn't compare.
	Zi Ree	Oz, from what you said before: Can we as TPV developers take things from 1.23 and snowglobe for our LGPL viewers?
	Oz Linden	Tillie ... couldn't you accomplish much the same thing by just using personal windlight settings?
08:00	Office Orb	Your timer has expired!
	Zi Ree	SSD is not so important when you have lots of RAM.
	Oz Linden	No, Zi, you can't
	Zi Ree	Ok.
	Wolfpup	Zi im on a 32-bit system and maxed out @ 4GB
	Zi Ree	Wolf :(
	Ardy Lay	Yeah, I have 12GB of RAM and disabled virtual memory.
	Oz Linden	unless you get them moved to the current viewer code base, in which case you can
	Tillie Ariantho	Oz: thats the thing. I USE personal windlight settings, but the darn local lights kill everything in the 2.x versions.
	Zi Ree	nods. "Ok, got it, Oz. Thanks!"
08:01	Oz Linden	Ah....
	Tillie Ariantho	A single reddish light somewhere and everything is tinted in red, photos unusable.
	Oz Linden	well, I don't think that an option to turn them off would be controversial, so if someone builds it we can probably integrate it
08:02	Tillie Ariantho	And at shows and events I cant have a 'clean light environment' as I can have back in my private studio. ^^
	Ardy Lay	<key>RenderLocalLights</key>
	Oz Linden	If Firestorm already has it, then we can probably get that integrated....
	Ardy Lay	DEbugSetting seems to be there.
08:03		It deos stuff too.
	Tillie Ariantho	In phoenix it's RenderLightingDetail 0/1
		Ardy: didnt see it in the last dev build.
08:04	Ardy Lay	Uhm... I am using mesh-development at the moment.
	Tillie Ariantho	I'm pretty sure its not part of 2.6.x
	Moy	Renderlocallights does not appear for me in a four day old version of 2.6
	Tillie Ariantho	yah. :-/
	Oz Linden	no, it's not in my build either
08:05		but the good news is that the mesh branch is due to merge (again) this week
	Ardy Lay	I also find it in viewer-development
	Oz Linden	the mesh features won't be enabled yet, but the other rendering changes will be
08:06	Ardy Lay	I am looking in settings.xml
	Oz Linden	odd that it doesn't show in the menu....
	Ardy Lay	Doesn't show in DebugSettings?
08:07	Moy	How old is your viewerdevelopment Ardy?
	Zi Ree	Maybe it's commented out?
	Oz Linden	I need to wrap up, folks.... I'll look for that difference, Tillie; put something on the agenda for the Viewer Evolution UG this week.
	Moy	It's not in my settings.xml file at all
	Ardy Lay	Uhmm... I think I pulled Saturday
	Wolfpup	Oz one thing though befor the mesh featurs can be active there will need to be a project to creat a fully OS convexdecompsition lib
	Tillie Ariantho	:)
08:08	Oz Linden	well, we're not going to wait for that Wolfpup
		nor do it
		the only thing that won't work without it is uploading meshes, and even then you can do it by building the physics externally and using the advanced upload dialog
	Jonathan	A TPV developer has come up with a local work-around for that, too
08:09	Oz Linden	talk to Kirstenlee
		gotta go all... thanks for coming
	Office Orb	End transcription