Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-16

From Second Life Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
07:00  Ardy Lay  Hi
  Oz Linden  hi everyone
  draconis.neurocam  hello oz
  Office Orb  mail_to set to
    Start transcription to
    Transcript will be sent to:
07:01  Oz Linden  we seem to have one new OPEN issue this morning... open-65
  Office Orb

OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell

  Ardy Lay  It's kinda fun to travel to other people's places in SL and hear some of the same bird calls I hear outside my RL home.
07:02  Oz Linden  I love those birds....
07:03    I've got a few of them ; they're made by Sandry Logan
  Ardy Lay  tries to understand that JIRA issue.
  Oz Linden  I could use some help with that myself...
    it seems unlikely that the lib was built by 2005 on our servers, but I can try to find that build....
07:04  Jonathan  I think Nicky is saying that when he tries to build that lib it uses the wrong compiler
  Ardy Lay  Well, I don't have six thoudand things installed and path variables of disturbing proportions so I cannot replicate stuff like that.
07:05  Oz Linden  is looking at our build log....
  Ima Mechanique  hmm gonna try it myself
07:06  Jonathan  There was some talk about this in IRC yesterday
  Ardy Lay  Hehe, guess I am lazy, just using the precompiled libraries.
  Jonathan  <NickyP> Is there a way to specify the build program in 3p-ogvorbis autobuild configure / build. mine defaults to VS2005 / devenv. I am runninh from a Setting SDK environment relative to C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v7.1
07:07  Wolfpup  that could be an issue in the autobuild or for that repository
07:09  Ima Mechanique  most of the 3p-* stuff do not really use the autobuild.xml
07:10  Wolfpup  i know they use cygwin on windows
  Oz Linden  it may take me a while to figure out if our build did the same thing, but I'm going to be surprised if it did
  Moy  Cygwin can cause quite a bit of issues when you're using that env to make the build files
07:11  Ima Mechanique  og vorbis bugged out on me
  Oz Linden  the assumption of most of the builds is that you're environment is set up to use 2010 by default, I suspect
07:12    if that's not true yet, then you should probably change it
  Ima Mechanique  trying to build 3p-ogvorbis I get an error for, which isn't available of course on Express
07:13  Oz Linden  ah, well, that's different
  Ima Mechanique  if that's hardcoded into the I can probably fix it
  Oz Linden  we've worked around that in the main viewer build, but I suspect most of the 3p-* builds expect devenv
07:14  Ima Mechanique  it's mostly autobuild that expects it Oz.
    when it's coded into the for the repo it's fixable ;-)
07:15  Oz Linden  If someone can propose a general fix that auto-detects express vs other editions and does the right thing, we'll review it
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  I thought there was a solution that'd work on both express and non-express? If so, no detection needed.
  Oz Linden  but the community will have to come up with it, because we pay for our VS
07:16  Ima Mechanique  hmm, not really possible. only workable solution I can see is if TC moves to using msbuild instead of devenv.
  Oz Linden  Yes, that would be ok too, obviously
  Ima Mechanique  boroondas, that's the msbuild way
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Yeah, that's what I meant. Are there any drawbacks in using msbuild only?
07:17  Ima Mechanique  none that I know of. We need to talk to someone on the TC side of stuff to hash out possibilities
    Brad probably
  Oz Linden  or Alain
    or more likely both
  Ima Mechanique  yeah
07:18  Oz Linden  whatever solution we come up with has to also be compatible with Incredibuild
  Ima Mechanique  Incredibuild is actually separate Oz. so not a problem
    it has it's own checks in the code which then run custom commands
07:19  Oz Linden  in my experience, when it comes to build environments, almost nothing is a completely independent choice :-)
07:20  Ima Mechanique  true, and nothing is as simple as it appears ;-)
  Oz Linden  Is there someone here that uses VS Express that can try to repro this issue from Nicky?
07:21    I'll ask on the list, I guess....
  Ima Mechanique  I can try, not sure I have a close enough environment though
07:22  Oz Linden  just check it out and try to build it...
  draconis.neurocam  i would imagine if someone were to try to, they would need 2005 installed, which i do not
  Ima Mechanique  I don't have 2005 installed, only 2008 and 2010
  Oz Linden  welll, if you don't, then certainly don't install it for this :-)
    it may be that the answer is "uninstall 2005 and try again"....
07:23  Ardy Lay  Heh
    Yeah, I clean out the old stuff.
  Oz Linden  As I've said before, compatibility with the old environment is not a goal
    in fact, I might go so far as to say it's an un-goal
07:24    anyway ....
    other topics ?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  came here late. Is the issue in question when using 2005 or when using 2010 while 2005 is installed, too?
  Jonathan  Oz, being able to compile TPVs that need 2005 would be a concern to me
  Oz Linden
  Office Orb  OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
  Jonathan  There is probably some less drastic work-around
07:25  Oz Linden  TPVs that are that far behind are going to get un-interesting pretty fast
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  I think it'd be nice to allow for several VS versions to be installed, so people don't need different machines to work on several different viewers.
  Zi Ree  Virtualization ;)
  Oz Linden  like I said, I'll test proposed solutions, but we won't spend time on devising them
07:26    good thought, Zi
  Moy  That requires another Windows license though, for Windows users, that is
  Zi Ree  Well ... yeah ;)
07:27  Oz Linden  There's a lot of new stuff coming that is going to make 1.x code base viewers obsolete, and we're not talking about the distant future
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Well, non-Windows users don't have problems with different VS versions, anyway :-P
  The Raptor  Virtual Systems
    or visual studio?
  Oz Linden  the latter
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  yep
  The Raptor  thanks
07:28  Oz Linden  Has anyone looked at the storm-1100 viewer?
  Office Orb

STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt

  Zi Ree  virtualizes to compile for different glibc versions on Linux.
07:29  Oz Linden  Keeping up with new GPUs is an area I hope that open source can help with; it's a problem particularly amenable to a crowdsource solution
  Ardy Lay  Oz, I'll try it but doesn't look like it will like my GTX 570
  Oz Linden  do you have the exact string?
07:30    (the logging on that version is better)
  Zi Ree  We try to keep ours up to date.
  Wolfpup  Oz i tried that viewer on my system and it crashes on start and i did post my logs to the issue
  Ardy Lay  NVIDIA GTX 570 .*NVIDIA.*GeForce GTX 57.* 3 1
07:31  Oz Linden  thanks wolfpup.... on my list to look at today
    no, I meant the id string from the driver, not the expression from gpu_table
  Ardy Lay  Oh, that's just what I put in the table to keep the viewer from clobbering my settings.
07:32  Zi Ree  I wonder if it was possible to display the string and a message as a dialog if it's not found and send it to a server to collect them.
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  +Zi
07:33  Oz Linden  My idea is that once this issue is integrated, I'll create a 'New GPU' issue due in a few months, and ask people to create subtasks under it for any un-or-mis-recognized GPU
  Zi Ree  "Your graphics card: XXX YYY ZZZ was not identified by our list. Would you like to send this information to our database?"
  Oz Linden  They are already sent to us
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  ah
  Oz Linden  they're in the stats packet
  Zi Ree  Ooh, okay!
07:34  Jonathan  I think the trouble is that someone has to categorize each card and add it to the table?
  Oz Linden  that's where the values in indra/newview/tests/gpus_seen.txt (in my storm-1100 branch) come from
  Ardy Lay  GeForce GTX 570/PCI/SSE2 <- This?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Would be nice if the viewer could auto-tune itself without any knowledge of the graphic card.
  Zi Ree  Runa test and record FPS you mean?
  The Raptor  shame there isn't a way to detect if a card meets x requirements
07:35  Moy  You can easily find out if certain shader modes are there
  Jonathan  I saw a suggestion once to have the graphic settings auto adjust to maintain a certain FPS
  Oz Linden  You're right, Ardy... that's not recognized
  Moy  Find out how many cores, and what speed each core is, that's a simple way to see if a user can handle low/med/ultra settings, and basic shaders
  Oz Linden  you think it should be a class 3?
  Ardy Lay  Yes
07:36    In SL the GTX570 and GTX580 are performing identically, after I mess with the GPU table.
  Oz Linden  I'll get that in then before I integrate... thanks
    This is a perfect example
07:37    There's no way we can actually test all the cards out there....
  The Raptor  of course
  Jonathan  Is that gpu file downloaded after it is updated or does it require a new viewer install?
  Wolfpup  the viewer on my linux laptop misregisters the gpu Which is an intel gpu
  The Raptor  ahh same
07:38  Zi Ree  I think it needs a new viewer installation.
  Oz Linden  The table is included in the viewer
    in theory at least, we can override that table though
  Zi Ree  Maybe it could be made to load dynamically from the web?
07:39  Oz Linden  When the viewer starts, it builds a url from its own version number and tries to fetch a new gpu_table
  The Raptor  hmm
  Oz Linden  so if we needed to badly enough, we could put a new table at that url
    but that's not normally used
07:40  The Raptor  just as a thought, instead of grabbing a new gpu table, it could be made to check if the gpu is listed
  Oz Linden  The gpu recognition should only affect your default settings
07:41    and in a few cases, I think, whether or not certain things like shadows are available
  Tillie Ariantho  I hate new installes resetting my graphic settings each time.
  Zi Ree  And number of local lights.
  Oz Linden  basically, it's the number of shaders, if I understand it correctly
07:42  Moy  The number of local lights aswell
  Zi Ree  still needs to get more into the render side of things.
  The Raptor  I thought the number of local lights was always limited to 8 or 9
  Zi Ree  8 is the maximum, 6 usable for builders.
  Moy  8 openGL light sources
  Tillie Ariantho  Local lights ... there is still no switch back in in the 2.x clients to disable them ...
  The Raptor  yeah
07:43  Zi Ree  But if your card gets classed as class 0 ,it wiill only use 2 lights.
    2 for builders.
  Oz Linden  I thought we put in a way to disable local lights?
  Han Shot First  it's coupled with basic shaders right now
  The Raptor  debug? :p
07:44    ahh
  Tillie Ariantho  Oz: Which dev build? I didnt find it anywhere.
  Han Shot First  so you can't disable them if you have basic shaders enabled
  Zi Ree  I have "Local Lights: Maximum / Limited / None".
  Oz Linden  ah... it was 'Render Attached Lights' (Develop menu)
  Tillie Ariantho  sucks. so if I am forced to use a 2.x client I can stop taking photos, cause local lights mess up everything. great.
07:45  Kitteh Scientist  Attached != local lights
  Oz Linden  hates features hidden in the Develop menu
  Kitteh Scientist  local light can also be non-attached
  Jonathan  Tillie, there is probably some debug setting you can use
  Han Shot First  i don't like that the option was removed from preferences > graphics either
  Tillie Ariantho  Jonathan: didnt find any.
  Moy  The disabling of attached lights has been there for years though
  Oz Linden  yes, I know... I was just confusing them in my cluttered memory
  draconis.neurocam  i dont like that the feature to debug sculpt image dimensions got axed in the conversion to 2.x i would have thought it would be something nice to have
  Zi Ree  I see it, but I am on Firestorm. Not sure if V2 has it, too.
07:46  Moy  Firestorm is based on an old version of 2.x from last year
  Oz Linden  don't know what that was, draconis
  Moy  I think it's 2.3, or 2.4
  Zi Ree  2.5.1
  draconis.neurocam  i made a jira lemme find it
07:47  Zi Ree  Err, 2..5.2 even
    2.5.1 is our own version number ;)
  Office Orb  VWR-25489 Sculpt dimension meta-data view missing from 2.x, was possible to see in 1.23
07:49  draconis.neurocam  its one of a very small set of base features that i actually miss from older viewers
  Oz Linden  might that be covered by Develop->Render Metadata->Texture Area ?
07:50    (tried turning that on here... remarkably cluttered display)
  Moy  That's surface area though, not the sculpt image dimentions
  draconis.neurocam  doesnt appear to be, i get different values than expected
07:51  Oz Linden  if you can get an implementation that would go in that menu, adding it would probably not be controversial
  draconis.neurocam  it wouldnt be me writing it from scratch though, it would probably just be a copy paste job from older source, which is licensed differently
07:52  Oz Linden  if it was in 1.23 or Snowglobe, we can use it
  draconis.neurocam  interesting
  Jonathan  Draconis, will you take on that project?
  draconis.neurocam  it was in both
07:53    jonathan ill look into it, its something that really bugs me, so i have a good amount of drive to do it
  Oz Linden  Classic open source motivation :-)
07:54  Wolfpup  ya just like me and the date stamping of chat logs :p
  Oz Linden  exactly
    (and which I very much appreciate, incidentally)
07:55  Wolfpup  oz so far the work on chop-609 dose not seem to be helping OS build times at least for me
  Tillie Ariantho  I'd totally like a local light thats attached to the HUD and illuminates surroundings for the owner only. ^^
07:56  Moy  Make a script that has an object follow your camera
  Zi Ree  Increase your gamma value ;)
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  well, some of that is just preparation for steps that should help, I guess? Though CHOP-609 is directed at LL's build times, I guess.
  Kitteh Scientist  if i write a list of things in 1.23 or Snowglobe that would be usefull in v2. will you read the list?
07:57  Oz Linden  I read everything anyone sends me
  Kitteh Scientist  :)
  Wolfpup  Boroondas those should also affect those working on wnidows in an OS evvironment
  Oz Linden  our build times for Windows have gotten a lot better
07:58    cut by around half
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Well, but the bottle neck on your machine might be a different than on LL's machines. Depends on the hardware setup and whatnot.
  Jonathan  is chop-609 in v-d yet?
  Oz Linden  but I don't know how much of that is the software changes and how much is upgrading our build servers
  Wolfpup  Oz mine are still @ 2.25hrs for full build and that was after my pull friday night from viewer-development
  Oz Linden  integrated this morning Jonathan
  Zi Ree  More RAM and more cores help most.
07:59  Wolfpup  some of chop-609 was in friday night
  Ardy Lay  SSD doesn't hurt either but may not help much. I didn't compare.
  Zi Ree  Oz, from what you said before: Can we as TPV developers take things from 1.23 and snowglobe for our LGPL viewers?
  Oz Linden  Tillie ... couldn't you accomplish much the same thing by just using personal windlight settings?
08:00  Office Orb  Your timer has expired!
  Zi Ree  SSD is not so important when you have lots of RAM.
  Oz Linden  No, Zi, you can't
  Zi Ree  Ok.
  Wolfpup  Zi im on a 32-bit system and maxed out @ 4GB
  Zi Ree  Wolf :(
  Ardy Lay  Yeah, I have 12GB of RAM and disabled virtual memory.
  Oz Linden  unless you get them moved to the current viewer code base, in which case you can
  Tillie Ariantho  Oz: thats the thing. I USE personal windlight settings, but the darn local lights kill everything in the 2.x versions.
  Zi Ree  nods. "Ok, got it, Oz. Thanks!"
08:01  Oz Linden  Ah....
  Tillie Ariantho  A single reddish light somewhere and everything is tinted in red, photos unusable.
  Oz Linden  well, I don't think that an option to turn them off would be controversial, so if someone builds it we can probably integrate it
08:02  Tillie Ariantho  And at shows and events I cant have a 'clean light environment' as I can have back in my private studio. ^^
  Ardy Lay  <key>RenderLocalLights</key>
  Oz Linden  If Firestorm already has it, then we can probably get that integrated....
  Ardy Lay  DEbugSetting seems to be there.
08:03    It deos stuff too.
  Tillie Ariantho  In phoenix it's RenderLightingDetail 0/1
    Ardy: didnt see it in the last dev build.
08:04  Ardy Lay  Uhm... I am using mesh-development at the moment.
  Tillie Ariantho  I'm pretty sure its not part of 2.6.x
  Moy  Renderlocallights does not appear for me in a four day old version of 2.6
  Tillie Ariantho  yah. :-/
  Oz Linden  no, it's not in my build either
08:05    but the good news is that the mesh branch is due to merge (again) this week
  Ardy Lay  I also find it in viewer-development
  Oz Linden  the mesh features won't be enabled yet, but the other rendering changes will be
08:06  Ardy Lay  I am looking in settings.xml
  Oz Linden  odd that it doesn't show in the menu....
  Ardy Lay  Doesn't show in DebugSettings?
08:07  Moy  How old is your viewerdevelopment Ardy?
  Zi Ree  Maybe it's commented out?
  Oz Linden  I need to wrap up, folks.... I'll look for that difference, Tillie; put something on the agenda for the Viewer Evolution UG this week.
  Moy  It's not in my settings.xml file at all
  Ardy Lay  Uhmm... I think I pulled Saturday
  Wolfpup  Oz one thing though befor the mesh featurs can be active there will need to be a project to creat a fully OS convexdecompsition lib
  Tillie Ariantho  :)
08:08  Oz Linden  well, we're not going to wait for that Wolfpup
    nor do it
    the only thing that won't work without it is uploading meshes, and even then you can do it by building the physics externally and using the advanced upload dialog
  Jonathan  A TPV developer has come up with a local work-around for that, too
08:09  Oz Linden  talk to Kirstenlee
    gotta go all... thanks for coming
  Office Orb  End transcription