Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-18

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13:30  xstorm Radek  greetings oz dd ya miss me ?
  Yann  hey Boroondas is just back lol
    hi Kodah :)
    Oy Oz :)
  xstorm Radek  im back toive every one bad dreams
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  "back"? I've just arrived
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  afternoon Oz
  The avatar formerly know as  Hello all
  Yann  your not allergic at the bird Oz? ;p
  Oz Linden  Hi all
13:31  draconis.neurocam  hello oz
  xstorm Radek  quick one oz to ask ya
    will second life ever have hypergrid ?
13:32  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  unlikely any time soon, but 'ever' is a long time, so who knows?
  Oz Linden  not an open development question, and not within my scope
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ^
  xstorm Radek  he h he he he thats the oz i know
13:33  Oz Linden  Very cool av, eddi
  Yann  thanks :)
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  looks dangerous
  xstorm Radek  so oz then your saying its dev work is not open to the users yet ?
  Oz Linden  well, xstorm, I could make something up, but that wouldn't help you, me, or LL
13:34    We've got an agenda, and a bunch of OPEN issues that need to be looked at....
    apologies, I'll be a little slow today... working on just one screen
13:35  Jonathan  url ?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে
  The avatar formerly know as  Egad, only one screen? I'd call in sick if I had to work on just one screen :3
  Oz Linden  open-68
  Office Orb

OPEN-68 Convert autobuild library builds to use msbuild.exe instead of Then, convert all 3p-lib's to have the correct parameter call alignment for msbuild.exe.

  Oz Linden  and open-69
  Office Orb

OPEN-69 Change autobuild to use msbuild.exe

13:36  Oz Linden  I think that I do understand these, but I'd like the issues to spell out what problem is being addressed, instead of only what changes are being made
13:37    there's nothing there that explains _why_ this is wanted
  The avatar formerly know as  I believe that MSVC express does not have
  Oz Linden  since I'm going to have to get this reviewed and approved by Lindens who don't have the problem, that would help
    I said that _I_ know what the issue is....
    Write It Down
13:38  Jonathan  Nicky will you update those descriptions?
  The avatar formerly know as  doesn't use express.
13:39  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  STORM-1149 might be the reason/motivation for the changes ...
  Office Orb

STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.

  Nicky Perian  sorry door bell
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  thus why I linked it as 'parent'
    (dunno whether that's the correct thing to do)
  xstorm Radek  lol
13:40  Ima Mechanique  I kinda envisioned this as part of open-50/storm1149
  Oz Linden  Just clean up the issues and spell it out so that if someone reads them who doesn't know anything, they
  Office Orb

STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.

  Oz Linden  will understand what's going on
  xstorm Radek  he he he he
    i like to see that happen
  Nicky Perian  I think the scope of OPEN-50 narrowed over time
  Oz Linden  note: open-50 is Closed
  The avatar formerly know as  Someone, just tack userstories on them :P
13:41  Oz Linden  exactly
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  xstorm, see what happen?
  Oz Linden  I'm all for unifying things, by the way.... I just have to justify why we should change something that from LL's point of view is Working Just Fine
13:42    OPEN-67
  Office Orb

OPEN-67 LLDirIterator implementation incompatible to boost::filesystem v3 (as found in Boost 1.44 and newer)

13:43  Oz Linden  what version of boost are we packaging now, Boroondas?
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  1.45
  Nicky Perian  I think we should try to reach the widest possible range of dev's.
  xstorm Radek  working fine like LL new beta viewer with many bugs
  Oz Linden  Nicky... I'm not arguing... I'm asking you for help
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  1.46.1 i think is the latest though
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  I don't know what LL's packing. I'm still using standalone, thus whatever's installed on my system.
  Nicky Perian  ok
13:44  xstorm Radek  how do LL define the word working fine ?
  Oz Linden  xstorm: it is working well enough for all Lindens to build viewers
  Nicky Perian  Is the updated description enough. OPEN-68?
13:45  Oz Linden  which means I need to justify why Lindens should spend time on changing it
  xstorm Radek  oh to build viewers i see ok
  Oz Linden  I'll look after the meeting and let you know, Nicky
  Nicky Perian  k
13:47  Oz Linden  I don't think that I understand the problem, Boroondas.... you say that the API is incompatible with anything > 1.44 but we are using 1.45 ; shouldn't we be having a problem?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  if that is the case, yes
  Oz Linden  well, are we?
13:48  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Dunno ... have you tried building 2.6.9-start on TeamCity?
  Oz Linden  yes, it builds fine
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  strange
  Dɐuʇıɐ Goʇɥןʎ  its builds every day.
  draconis.neurocam  is using it now
  Oz Linden  believe me, I've done a _lot_ of builds since that tag
13:49  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  maybe your boost is modified to still use the old API?
  Oz Linden  CG tells me that I'm by far the heaviest user of TC
  xstorm Radek  ok mr OZ i got to see what i was looking for have a good day
    **ok i wuv u byby!!**
  The avatar formerly know as  I've noticed recently on v-d that autobuild is not setting the startup project anymore.
13:50  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Anyway, my proposed fix should work fine with both, old and new API. So if it still builds on TC after applying that, it should be good.
  The avatar formerly know as  Nor the startup config, its defaulted to debug every configure.
13:51  Jonathan  I've been getting the debug config for a long time. Even trying -t Release doesn't help
  The avatar formerly know as  And this isn't on express either. Hmm...
  Oz Linden  I am not yet convinced that there's a problem here that needs solving
    it is not a goal that we able to build the viewer with arbitrary versions of dependencies
13:52    only with the version we are using at any given time
  Nicky Perian  @kadah.coba Within the IDE?
  Lindsey Warwick  omg a real linden
  Jonathan  It would be nice if the files config files the IDE reads in match the setting supplied to autobuild
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  that means no system libraries can ever be used?
  Jonathan  or at least have a way of setting it on the command line
  Oz Linden  if there's a reason to upgrade a dependency (and I agree that they should not be allowed to get too old), that's ok, but supporting more than one version is not needed
13:53  The avatar formerly know as  Nicky, when I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
  Oz Linden  one topic at a time, folks
  Jonathan  What topic are we on now?
13:54  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  well, I can easily change my fix so it only works with the new API. But I'm sure that'll break stuff for someone. If not for LL, then for fellow standalone devs on other linux distributions.
  Oz Linden  Using system libs is at best a very very low priority, frankly
    especially if it adds complexity
13:55  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  I see. Note though, that for how strongly the API has changed, the added complexity here is rather moderate.
  Oz Linden  there are ~50 third party libs in this thing... if we try to make it version-agile with all of them, and all theh ways they are installed on all the distros and platforms , we'll spend the rest of our lives just doing that and never add another feature to the viewer
  Cron Stardust  So it sounds like the best path would be to fix the reasons why us Linux devs have to use standalone, and depricate the standalone build process.... unless I'm reall yfar out again :P
13:56  The avatar formerly know as  Updating boost has never been trivial.
  Oz Linden  I don't really understand why anyone thinks that they "need" standalone
13:57  The avatar formerly know as  Cause they are masochists?
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  The reason I still use standalone is that I don't have time to try building all 3p-* stuff for 64bit.
  Ashiri Sands  =^_^=
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  Will do that some time, but not any time soon.
  Oz Linden  we finally got all the dependencies in public repos with uniform packaging/building tools
    well, alternatively you're spending the time hacking standalone
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  yeah :-P
13:58  Oz Linden  which does nothing to advance our supporting 64 bit
    whereas if all the 3p-* packages were known to work and build 64 bit, it would be a much easier sell for me to convince LL to start doing that
13:59  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  ok
  Oz Linden  hint hint hint
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ^.^
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  yeah, got it
  Oz Linden  and the same goes for all of you who keep complaining that we don't ship a 64bit Windows version
14:00  Ima Mechanique  hehe I can't even build the 3p-*'s for 32 bit
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  I don't think anyone's building standalone on Windows. (Is that even possible?)
  The avatar formerly know as  Next topic?
14:01  Jonathan  Is there a 64 bit KDU ?
  Oz Linden  one more word on that last one... we should probably look at how far behind we are on boost...
  Jonathan  and that piece needed by mesh that we can't get?
  The avatar formerly know as  Jonathan, if you license kdu and build it, yes.
  Oz Linden  We have source for KDU, so if we built it there would be
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  your on 1.45, i know theres at least a 1.46.1
14:02  Oz Linden  it would surpise the heck out of me if it were not 64bit clean
  Jonathan  So a 64 bit viewer is not an impossibility, especially if open source people work to build the libs
  Zwagoth Klaar  If you build KDU yourself, yes. It is actually slightly faster than the 32 bit version.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  qtwebkit should be updated tbo, they had 438 closed jira entries for 4.7.2
    ranging from ogl issues to font rendering to explots, etc
  Oz Linden  I'll get a look at the boost release notes to see if we should upgrade, in which case some version of your fix will probably be useful, Boroondas, but we won't need to do both
14:03    qtwebkit is not something anyone wants to fool with lightly....
  Office Orb

OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell

  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ok
  Nicky Perian  close it
14:04    overcome by events open-70
  Office Orb

OPEN-70 Change 3p-ogvorbis/ to use msbuild.exe parameters.

  Oz Linden  did someone fix autobuild to default to 100?
  The avatar formerly know as  I couldnt get the 3p-oggvorbis to autobuild, I had to do it manually
  Ima Mechanique  OPEN-66 should do that Oz
  Office Orb

OPEN-66 Update autobuilds default VC version.

14:05  Oz Linden  excellent
  The avatar formerly know as  When I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
    I'm not on express.
14:06  Oz Linden  did that correspond to the mesh merge, kadah?
  The avatar formerly know as  Possibly, I haven't tired building v-d in a while, so it could either be from the mesh merge or since like 2.6.5 ish
  Jonathan  I have not seen the config set properly for a long time, even when I specify it on the commend line (don't know if having the startup project set makes any difference)
14:07  Ima Mechanique  kadah, could it have been from the OPEN-50 changes?
  The avatar formerly know as  has been crazy busy irl lately
  Ima Mechanique  try changing -DUNATTENDED:BOOL=ON to OFF
14:08  Oz Linden  perhaps some of you windows devs can help him isolate when that changed and why? I just had to loan the windows dev on my team to the mesh team
  Ima Mechanique  that may be related to the vstools stuff
  The avatar formerly know as  Maybe, did open-50 chanege the config based on the installed MSVC edition or off the *OS config?
  Jonathan  Kadah, I have had the config issue since November
    (at least)
  Oz Linden  I don't think anything detects the installed msvc
  Ima Mechanique  OPEN-50 made the config lowest common denominator. so it doesn't use vstools by default anymore
  The avatar formerly know as  I'll try a few runs today and see if I can find when that started
14:09  Ima Mechanique  correct Oz, can't really detect MSVC type full and express look the same to cmake
14:10  Nicky Perian was the same way at least for me.
  The avatar formerly know as  I thought there were some reg key tells for express
  Nicky Perian  never set the solution startup
    and defaulted to debug
14:11  Oz Linden  those attempts at detecting got pretty messy on systems with multiple versions installed
  Jonathan  I have always set the solution by hand, since I started 12 months ago
  Ima Mechanique  kadah, there are, but cmake doesn't use them. and it gets more complicated when you throw in 32 vs 64 version
14:12 failed to find any VS on 64 bit because it looked in the wrong place ;-)
14:13    I look forward to M$ dropping 32 bit, but I suspect it will be qa long time away
  Oz Linden  yes, I suspect you're right about that
  The avatar formerly know as  Uh, yeah, the default platform is still xp.
  Oz Linden  we have actually started shifting our builds to win7
14:14    but they still work on xp
  The avatar formerly know as  I meant the users :P
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  windows 8 is looking to still come in a 32bit version
  Oz Linden  yes, users may never upgrade....
14:15    you should see how many users are still on ancient viewers (mostly old TPVs)
  The avatar formerly know as  According to Steam's hardware stats, 33%% of their users are on 32bit XP or vista
  Yann  yeah its important to do some update mendatory about that i think :)
14:16  Oz Linden  well, in time the APIs those old viewers use will stop working, and then they'll upgrade
  Ima Mechanique  or just pass into the tpv graveyard silently
14:17  Yann  you talk to stop the 1.x viewer ??
  Ashiri Sands  First they'll moan about the viewer not working
  Ima Mechanique  lol Ashiri first they'll moan about the GRID not working
  The avatar formerly know as  25 minutes it took to build v-d tip just now. Not sure if thats an improvement for me.
  Oz Linden  we still have not set a schedule for when we'll completely drop our 1.23
14:18  The avatar formerly know as  26 seconds to link x3
  Ima Mechanique  depends kadah, does it run? My build yesterday crashed on startup
  Yann  by chance i have firestorm in my hd :)
  Oz Linden  I put in a fix for one startup crash this morning
  The avatar formerly know as  Yeah, crashes on startup.
  Ima Mechanique  is that the assert thingy Oz?
  Oz Linden  I think that it's possible there's another one
    yes, Ima
  Yann  Kadah m for firestorm?
14:19  Oz Linden  changed some llerrs to llwarns
  Ima Mechanique  excellent, I'll pull and rebuild
    want to test if my USE_QUICKTIME works
  oobscure  are there any up-to-date stats about viewer usage we can see ?
  The avatar formerly know as  I can't even tell you where I crashed, even with debugging its not giving me anything useful
14:20  Oz Linden  We don't generally distribute usage stats
  Yann  hmm Kadah .. its strange :)
  Oz Linden  1.23 is falling pretty steadily, our viewer and phoenix both rising slowly
14:21    Dolphin finally got enough users on one version to make the cutoff to be included in the top section of the TPVD this week
  draconis.neurocam  oh wow
  Yann  aie
14:22  Oz Linden  (has had enough users for quite some time, but on multiple versions, so that stats for any one were too low)
  Yann  i see singularty to , its the next of Accent?
  The avatar formerly know as  Its a fork of Accent
    Accent seems to be dead
  Oz Linden  it is a fork of Ascent, I believe
  Yann  okey right thanks to confirm that with me :)
14:23  The avatar formerly know as  Asscent hasn't had any commits since October, I think
  Yann  i,m little curious i load some viewer of this list in my computer to try :)
14:24    i have 56,000 .exe of some viewer lol
  Oz Linden  any viewer that isn't being actively maintained is going to start having fairly serious problems over the next months
  draconis.neurocam  that is good news oz
  Oz Linden  we're making a lot of changes... if viewers don't keep up, things will break
  The avatar formerly know as  Breaking stuff?
14:25  Oz Linden  improving stuff an adding new stuff
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  mesh...
  Oz Linden  mesh, improved chat, new profile features
  Yann  its more complicated, with the 1.5x viewer .. to load and other thig like that
  Oz Linden  most APIs will get some kind of update
  draconis.neurocam  i really feel like the more people are on v2 the more people will look at the code, the more fixes it will get, the more sl will evolve on the whole
  Yann  due to some change on the server code* i think
14:26  Oz Linden  and we do not promise to maintain the old APIs for long
    It's always been the policy that our viewer is the reference for how to interface to the servers, and by that we mean the 2.x code base now
14:27  Yann  yeah but the uix cant be changed right?
  Jonathan  Don't forget the days when the grid was shut down weekly for updating and then you had to load a new viewer before logging in.
  Yann  sorry my typos
  Oz Linden  that being said, we're looking hard at what motivates people to stay on a 1.x viewer so that we can try to address those issues too
14:28  Kraptacular Kat  so far its only little things about the UI mostly
  Oz Linden  not sure what you mean eddi... the xui is changed almost every day
  The avatar formerly know as  That would be several meetings to cover.
  Oz Linden  (I was making changes before I logged in for this meeting)_
  Nicky Perian  for everyday work/building the pie menus are best IMO.
14:29  Kraptacular Kat  I agree
  Yann  Oz, i talk about some project open source (the dev have the right to add som xui or not?)
  Oz Linden  I wasn't hear for the whole pie menu discussion... don't know how/why that changed
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  nested pie menus suck, but there was the need to add more menu entries
14:30  draconis.neurocam  yeah
  Ashiri Sands  Aren't pie menus pretty much limited to the games apps?
  Oz Linden  open devs (or Linden devs for that matter) don't have the "right" to do anything
  Yann  Oz, i think its more intuitiv with the pie menue, cause some time with my 2.x buid click i have some difficulty :)
    i hate that lol :)
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  non-nested pie menus are great though, so maybe some hybrid approach could be envisioned?
  The avatar formerly know as  I forget what reason I heard for ditching the pie, but I had a feeling it was another one of the "consultants" ideas.
  Oz Linden  we all have to make proposals for what should be changed and get them reviewed
    LIndens included
  oobscure  oz could you tell us something more about the upcoming improved chat you mentioned?
  Jonathan  I have a finished jira that reorganizes the build and right click menus to be more user-friendly. Hopefully that will get some LL attention at some point
14:31  Kraptacular Kat  very vocal people who didnt like it because it was not a classic menu system
  Oz Linden  I don't actually know many of the details, on chat
  Jonathan  So everyone, don't give up hope
  Oz Linden  there is a good sized team doing work to figure out why it lags and making changes
  The avatar formerly know as  From what I heard, 2030 was responsible fo the UI design.
  Oz Linden  there's a commit in the queue for v-d to instrument some things, actually
  Yann  you know where you click on the mouse and the mouse select the thing just under the selection you want you seem to be a noob all the time:)
  oobscure  i see that group chat load tests may be added to mainstream viewer -- maybe to measure actual improvement
14:32  Office Orb  STORM-1267 Please merge into viewer-development
  Yann  with the pe menue i never observ that :)
  Oz Linden  well, I am guessing that pie menus are not coming back any time soon
14:33  Ima Mechanique  except on FS
  Nicky Perian  the other thing that hold me back from v2 was early on inventory losses.
  Kraptacular Kat  would be nice for the option though
14:34  Oz Linden  well, if FS solves being able to do both menu styles, we'll see if we can take that change ;-)
  Yann  Oz, honestly why you can do a mode of more like advenced, and basic, you could creat an Legacy mode, to get the old configuration of menu :)
    its my idea :)
  Oz Linden  too many differences, eddi
  The avatar formerly know as  Yeah, v2 assumes you only have one of most types of panels ever.
14:35  Oz Linden  There's a lot going on to improve the UI... one of these days I'll ask that team to come present at the Viewer Evolution UG
  Yann  ok :)
  The avatar formerly know as  Thats the UG thats at like 7 in the morning isn't it?
  Oz Linden  I've got to go, folks... I'm actually working on code today!
  draconis.neurocam  8pst
    on friday kadah
  The avatar formerly know as  Ah, yeah, I can never make it
  Yann  ok Oz have a nice day :)
14:36  oobscure  bye oz, thanks
  The avatar formerly know as  Thanks Oz
  বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে  tc, Oz
  draconis.neurocam  thanks oz
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  tc Oz
  Yann  bye bye and thanks :)