Open Development User Group/Archive/2011-05-18

13:30	xstorm Radek	greetings oz dd ya miss me ?
	Yann	hey Boroondas is just back lol
		hi Kodah :)
		Oy Oz :)
	xstorm Radek	im back toive every one bad dreams
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	"back"? I've just arrived
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	afternoon Oz
	The avatar formerly know as	Hello all
	Yann	your not allergic at the bird Oz? ;p
	Oz Linden	Hi all
13:31	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	xstorm Radek	quick one oz to ask ya
		will second life ever have hypergrid ?
13:32	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	unlikely any time soon, but 'ever' is a long time, so who knows?
	Oz Linden	not an open development question, and not within my scope
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	^
	xstorm Radek	he h he he he thats the oz i know
13:33	Oz Linden	Very cool av, eddi
	Yann	thanks :)
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	looks dangerous
	xstorm Radek	so oz then your saying its dev work is not open to the users yet ?
	Oz Linden	well, xstorm, I could make something up, but that wouldn't help you, me, or LL
13:34		We've got an agenda, and a bunch of OPEN issues that need to be looked at....
		apologies, I'll be a little slow today... working on just one screen
13:35	Jonathan	url ?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Development_User_Group
	The avatar formerly know as	Egad, only one screen? I'd call in sick if I had to work on just one screen :3
	Oz Linden	open-68
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-68 OPEN-68 Convert autobuild library builds to use msbuild.exe instead of devenv.com. Then, convert all 3p-lib's build-cmd.sh to have the correct parameter call alignment for msbuild.exe.
	Oz Linden	and open-69
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-69 OPEN-69 Change autobuild to use msbuild.exe
13:36	Oz Linden	I think that I do understand these, but I'd like the issues to spell out what problem is being addressed, instead of only what changes are being made
13:37		there's nothing there that explains _why_ this is wanted
	The avatar formerly know as	I believe that MSVC express does not have devenv.com
	Oz Linden	since I'm going to have to get this reviewed and approved by Lindens who don't have the problem, that would help
		I said that _I_ know what the issue is....
		Write It Down
13:38	Jonathan	Nicky will you update those descriptions?
	The avatar formerly know as	doesn't use express.
13:39	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	STORM-1149 might be the reason/motivation for the changes ...
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1149 STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
	Nicky Perian	sorry door bell
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	thus why I linked it as 'parent'
		(dunno whether that's the correct thing to do)
	xstorm Radek	lol
13:40	Ima Mechanique	I kinda envisioned this as part of open-50/storm1149
	Oz Linden	Just clean up the issues and spell it out so that if someone reads them who doesn't know anything, they
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-50 STORM-1149 [OPEN-50] As an Open Source developer I would like a single set of configurations, which work for both Visual Studio and Express version of VC.
	Oz Linden	will understand what's going on
	xstorm Radek	he he he he
		i like to see that happen
	Nicky Perian	I think the scope of OPEN-50 narrowed over time
	Oz Linden	note: open-50 is Closed
	The avatar formerly know as	Someone, just tack userstories on them :P
13:41	Oz Linden	exactly
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	xstorm, see what happen?
	Oz Linden	I'm all for unifying things, by the way.... I just have to justify why we should change something that from LL's point of view is Working Just Fine
13:42		OPEN-67
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-67 OPEN-67 LLDirIterator implementation incompatible to boost::filesystem v3 (as found in Boost 1.44 and newer)
13:43	Oz Linden	what version of boost are we packaging now, Boroondas?
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	1.45
	Nicky Perian	I think we should try to reach the widest possible range of dev's.
	xstorm Radek	working fine like LL new beta viewer with many bugs
	Oz Linden	Nicky... I'm not arguing... I'm asking you for help
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	1.46.1 i think is the latest though
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I don't know what LL's packing. I'm still using standalone, thus whatever's installed on my system.
	Nicky Perian	ok
13:44	xstorm Radek	how do LL define the word working fine ?
	Oz Linden	xstorm: it is working well enough for all Lindens to build viewers
	Nicky Perian	Is the updated description enough. OPEN-68?
13:45	Oz Linden	which means I need to justify why Lindens should spend time on changing it
	xstorm Radek	oh to build viewers i see ok
	Oz Linden	I'll look after the meeting and let you know, Nicky
	Nicky Perian	k
13:47	Oz Linden	I don't think that I understand the problem, Boroondas.... you say that the API is incompatible with anything > 1.44 but we are using 1.45 ; shouldn't we be having a problem?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	if that is the case, yes
	Oz Linden	well, are we?
13:48	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Dunno ... have you tried building 2.6.9-start on TeamCity?
	Oz Linden	yes, it builds fine
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	strange
	Dɐuʇıɐ Goʇɥןʎ	its builds every day.
	draconis.neurocam	is using it now
	Oz Linden	believe me, I've done a _lot_ of builds since that tag
13:49	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	maybe your boost is modified to still use the old API?
	Oz Linden	CG tells me that I'm by far the heaviest user of TC
	xstorm Radek	ok mr OZ i got to see what i was looking for have a good day
		**ok i wuv u byby!!**
	The avatar formerly know as	I've noticed recently on v-d that autobuild is not setting the startup project anymore.
13:50	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Anyway, my proposed fix should work fine with both, old and new API. So if it still builds on TC after applying that, it should be good.
	The avatar formerly know as	Nor the startup config, its defaulted to debug every configure.
13:51	Jonathan	I've been getting the debug config for a long time. Even trying -t Release doesn't help
	The avatar formerly know as	And this isn't on express either. Hmm...
	Oz Linden	I am not yet convinced that there's a problem here that needs solving
		it is not a goal that we able to build the viewer with arbitrary versions of dependencies
13:52		only with the version we are using at any given time
	Nicky Perian	@kadah.coba Within the IDE?
	Lindsey Warwick	omg a real linden
	Jonathan	It would be nice if the files config files the IDE reads in match the setting supplied to autobuild
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	that means no system libraries can ever be used?
	Jonathan	or at least have a way of setting it on the command line
	Oz Linden	if there's a reason to upgrade a dependency (and I agree that they should not be allowed to get too old), that's ok, but supporting more than one version is not needed
13:53	The avatar formerly know as	Nicky, when I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
	Oz Linden	one topic at a time, folks
	Jonathan	What topic are we on now?
13:54	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	well, I can easily change my fix so it only works with the new API. But I'm sure that'll break stuff for someone. If not for LL, then for fellow standalone devs on other linux distributions.
		OPEN-67
	Oz Linden	Using system libs is at best a very very low priority, frankly
		especially if it adds complexity
13:55	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I see. Note though, that for how strongly the API has changed, the added complexity here is rather moderate.
	Oz Linden	there are ~50 third party libs in this thing... if we try to make it version-agile with all of them, and all theh ways they are installed on all the distros and platforms , we'll spend the rest of our lives just doing that and never add another feature to the viewer
	Cron Stardust	So it sounds like the best path would be to fix the reasons why us Linux devs have to use standalone, and depricate the standalone build process.... unless I'm reall yfar out again :P
13:56	The avatar formerly know as	Updating boost has never been trivial.
	Oz Linden	I don't really understand why anyone thinks that they "need" standalone
13:57	The avatar formerly know as	Cause they are masochists?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	The reason I still use standalone is that I don't have time to try building all 3p-* stuff for 64bit.
	Ashiri Sands	=^_^=
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	Will do that some time, but not any time soon.
	Oz Linden	we finally got all the dependencies in public repos with uniform packaging/building tools
		well, alternatively you're spending the time hacking standalone
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	yeah :-P
13:58	Oz Linden	which does nothing to advance our supporting 64 bit
		whereas if all the 3p-* packages were known to work and build 64 bit, it would be a much easier sell for me to convince LL to start doing that
13:59	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ok
	Oz Linden	hint hint hint
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	^.^
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	yeah, got it
	Oz Linden	and the same goes for all of you who keep complaining that we don't ship a 64bit Windows version
14:00	Ima Mechanique	hehe I can't even build the 3p-*'s for 32 bit
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I don't think anyone's building standalone on Windows. (Is that even possible?)
	The avatar formerly know as	Next topic?
14:01	Jonathan	Is there a 64 bit KDU ?
	Oz Linden	one more word on that last one... we should probably look at how far behind we are on boost...
	Jonathan	and that piece needed by mesh that we can't get?
	The avatar formerly know as	Jonathan, if you license kdu and build it, yes.
	Oz Linden	We have source for KDU, so if we built it there would be
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	your on 1.45, i know theres at least a 1.46.1
14:02	Oz Linden	it would surpise the heck out of me if it were not 64bit clean
	Jonathan	So a 64 bit viewer is not an impossibility, especially if open source people work to build the libs
	Zwagoth Klaar	If you build KDU yourself, yes. It is actually slightly faster than the 32 bit version.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	qtwebkit should be updated tbo, they had 438 closed jira entries for 4.7.2
		ranging from ogl issues to font rendering to explots, etc
	Oz Linden	I'll get a look at the boost release notes to see if we should upgrade, in which case some version of your fix will probably be useful, Boroondas, but we won't need to do both
14:03		qtwebkit is not something anyone wants to fool with lightly....
		open-65
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-65 OPEN-65 autobuild build for 3p-ogvorbis defaults to vs2005 even though configured under a vs2010 express shell
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	ok
	Nicky Perian	close it
14:04		overcome by events open-70
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-70 OPEN-70 Change 3p-ogvorbis/build-cmd.sh to use msbuild.exe parameters.
	Oz Linden	did someone fix autobuild to default to 100?
	The avatar formerly know as	I couldnt get the 3p-oggvorbis to autobuild, I had to do it manually
	Ima Mechanique	OPEN-66 should do that Oz
	Office Orb	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-66 OPEN-66 Update autobuilds default VC version.
14:05	Oz Linden	excellent
		ok....
	The avatar formerly know as	When I run autobuild configure -c RelWithDebInfoOS, within the IDE the startup project nor config have been set, they used to.
		I'm not on express.
14:06	Oz Linden	did that correspond to the mesh merge, kadah?
	The avatar formerly know as	Possibly, I haven't tired building v-d in a while, so it could either be from the mesh merge or since like 2.6.5 ish
	Jonathan	I have not seen the config set properly for a long time, even when I specify it on the commend line (don't know if having the startup project set makes any difference)
14:07	Ima Mechanique	kadah, could it have been from the OPEN-50 changes?
	The avatar formerly know as	has been crazy busy irl lately
	Ima Mechanique	try changing -DUNATTENDED:BOOL=ON to OFF
14:08	Oz Linden	perhaps some of you windows devs can help him isolate when that changed and why? I just had to loan the windows dev on my team to the mesh team
	Ima Mechanique	that may be related to the vstools stuff
	The avatar formerly know as	Maybe, did open-50 chanege the config based on the installed MSVC edition or off the *OS config?
	Jonathan	Kadah, I have had the config issue since November
		(at least)
	Oz Linden	I don't think anything detects the installed msvc
	Ima Mechanique	OPEN-50 made the config lowest common denominator. so it doesn't use vstools by default anymore
	The avatar formerly know as	I'll try a few runs today and see if I can find when that started
14:09	Ima Mechanique	correct Oz, can't really detect MSVC type full and express look the same to cmake
14:10	Nicky Perian	develop.py was the same way at least for me.
	The avatar formerly know as	I thought there were some reg key tells for express
	Nicky Perian	never set the solution startup
		and defaulted to debug
14:11	Oz Linden	those attempts at detecting got pretty messy on systems with multiple versions installed
	Jonathan	I have always set the solution by hand, since I started 12 months ago
	Ima Mechanique	kadah, there are, but cmake doesn't use them. and it gets more complicated when you throw in 32 vs 64 version
14:12		develop.py failed to find any VS on 64 bit because it looked in the wrong place ;-)
14:13		I look forward to M$ dropping 32 bit, but I suspect it will be qa long time away
	Oz Linden	yes, I suspect you're right about that
	The avatar formerly know as	Uh, yeah, the default platform is still xp.
	Oz Linden	we have actually started shifting our builds to win7
14:14		but they still work on xp
	The avatar formerly know as	I meant the users :P
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	windows 8 is looking to still come in a 32bit version
	Oz Linden	yes, users may never upgrade....
14:15		you should see how many users are still on ancient viewers (mostly old TPVs)
	The avatar formerly know as	According to Steam's hardware stats, 33%% of their users are on 32bit XP or vista
	Yann	yeah its important to do some update mendatory about that i think :)
14:16	Oz Linden	well, in time the APIs those old viewers use will stop working, and then they'll upgrade
	Ima Mechanique	or just pass into the tpv graveyard silently
14:17	Yann	you talk to stop the 1.x viewer ??
	Ashiri Sands	First they'll moan about the viewer not working
	Ima Mechanique	lol Ashiri first they'll moan about the GRID not working
	The avatar formerly know as	25 minutes it took to build v-d tip just now. Not sure if thats an improvement for me.
	Oz Linden	we still have not set a schedule for when we'll completely drop our 1.23
14:18	The avatar formerly know as	26 seconds to link x3
	Ima Mechanique	depends kadah, does it run? My build yesterday crashed on startup
	Yann	by chance i have firestorm in my hd :)
	Oz Linden	I put in a fix for one startup crash this morning
	The avatar formerly know as	Yeah, crashes on startup.
	Ima Mechanique	is that the assert thingy Oz?
	Oz Linden	I think that it's possible there's another one
		yes, Ima
	Yann	Kadah m for firestorm?
14:19	Oz Linden	changed some llerrs to llwarns
	Ima Mechanique	excellent, I'll pull and rebuild
		want to test if my USE_QUICKTIME works
	oobscure	are there any up-to-date stats about viewer usage we can see ?
	The avatar formerly know as	I can't even tell you where I crashed, even with debugging its not giving me anything useful
14:20	Oz Linden	We don't generally distribute usage stats
	Yann	hmm Kadah .. its strange :)
	Oz Linden	1.23 is falling pretty steadily, our viewer and phoenix both rising slowly
14:21		Dolphin finally got enough users on one version to make the cutoff to be included in the top section of the TPVD this week
	draconis.neurocam	oh wow
	Yann	aie
14:22	Oz Linden	(has had enough users for quite some time, but on multiple versions, so that stats for any one were too low)
	Yann	i see singularty to , its the next of Accent?
	The avatar formerly know as	Its a fork of Accent
		Accent seems to be dead
	Oz Linden	it is a fork of Ascent, I believe
	Yann	okey right thanks to confirm that with me :)
14:23	The avatar formerly know as	Asscent hasn't had any commits since October, I think
	Yann	i,m little curious i load some viewer of this list in my computer to try :)
14:24		i have 56,000 .exe of some viewer lol
	Oz Linden	any viewer that isn't being actively maintained is going to start having fairly serious problems over the next months
	draconis.neurocam	that is good news oz
	Oz Linden	we're making a lot of changes... if viewers don't keep up, things will break
	The avatar formerly know as	Breaking stuff?
14:25	Oz Linden	improving stuff an adding new stuff
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	mesh...
	Oz Linden	mesh, improved chat, new profile features
	Yann	its more complicated, with the 1.5x viewer .. to load and other thig like that
	Oz Linden	most APIs will get some kind of update
	draconis.neurocam	i really feel like the more people are on v2 the more people will look at the code, the more fixes it will get, the more sl will evolve on the whole
	Yann	due to some change on the server code* i think
14:26	Oz Linden	and we do not promise to maintain the old APIs for long
		It's always been the policy that our viewer is the reference for how to interface to the servers, and by that we mean the 2.x code base now
14:27	Yann	yeah but the uix cant be changed right?
		xui*
	Jonathan	Don't forget the days when the grid was shut down weekly for updating and then you had to load a new viewer before logging in.
	Yann	sorry my typos
	Oz Linden	that being said, we're looking hard at what motivates people to stay on a 1.x viewer so that we can try to address those issues too
14:28	Kraptacular Kat	so far its only little things about the UI mostly
	Oz Linden	not sure what you mean eddi... the xui is changed almost every day
	The avatar formerly know as	That would be several meetings to cover.
	Oz Linden	(I was making changes before I logged in for this meeting)_
	Nicky Perian	for everyday work/building the pie menus are best IMO.
14:29	Kraptacular Kat	I agree
	Yann	Oz, i talk about some project open source (the dev have the right to add som xui or not?)
	Oz Linden	I wasn't hear for the whole pie menu discussion... don't know how/why that changed
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	nested pie menus suck, but there was the need to add more menu entries
14:30	draconis.neurocam	yeah
	Ashiri Sands	Aren't pie menus pretty much limited to the games apps?
	Oz Linden	open devs (or Linden devs for that matter) don't have the "right" to do anything
	Yann	Oz, i think its more intuitiv with the pie menue, cause some time with my 2.x buid click i have some difficulty :)
		i hate that lol :)
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	non-nested pie menus are great though, so maybe some hybrid approach could be envisioned?
	The avatar formerly know as	I forget what reason I heard for ditching the pie, but I had a feeling it was another one of the "consultants" ideas.
	Oz Linden	we all have to make proposals for what should be changed and get them reviewed
		LIndens included
	oobscure	oz could you tell us something more about the upcoming improved chat you mentioned?
	Jonathan	I have a finished jira that reorganizes the build and right click menus to be more user-friendly. Hopefully that will get some LL attention at some point
14:31	Kraptacular Kat	very vocal people who didnt like it because it was not a classic menu system
	Oz Linden	I don't actually know many of the details, on chat
	Jonathan	So everyone, don't give up hope
	Oz Linden	there is a good sized team doing work to figure out why it lags and making changes
	The avatar formerly know as	From what I heard, 2030 was responsible fo the UI design.
	Oz Linden	there's a commit in the queue for v-d to instrument some things, actually
	Yann	you know where you click on the mouse and the mouse select the thing just under the selection you want you seem to be a noob all the time:)
	oobscure	i see that group chat load tests may be added to mainstream viewer https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1267 -- maybe to measure actual improvement
14:32	Office Orb	STORM-1267 Please merge hg.lindenlab.com/nat/viewer-group-chat-hooks2 into viewer-development
	Yann	with the pe menue i never observ that :)
		pie*
	Oz Linden	well, I am guessing that pie menus are not coming back any time soon
14:33	Ima Mechanique	except on FS
	Nicky Perian	the other thing that hold me back from v2 was early on inventory losses.
	Kraptacular Kat	would be nice for the option though
14:34	Oz Linden	well, if FS solves being able to do both menu styles, we'll see if we can take that change ;-)
	Yann	Oz, honestly why you can do a mode of more like advenced, and basic, you could creat an Legacy mode, to get the old configuration of menu :)
		its my idea :)
	Oz Linden	too many differences, eddi
	The avatar formerly know as	Yeah, v2 assumes you only have one of most types of panels ever.
14:35	Oz Linden	There's a lot going on to improve the UI... one of these days I'll ask that team to come present at the Viewer Evolution UG
	Yann	ok :)
	The avatar formerly know as	Thats the UG thats at like 7 in the morning isn't it?
	Oz Linden	I've got to go, folks... I'm actually working on code today!
	draconis.neurocam	8pst
		on friday kadah
	The avatar formerly know as	Ah, yeah, I can never make it
	Yann	ok Oz have a nice day :)
14:36	oobscure	bye oz, thanks
	The avatar formerly know as	Thanks Oz
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	tc, Oz
	draconis.neurocam	thanks oz
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	tc Oz
	Yann	bye bye and thanks :)